This is one of the reasons the Geist is such a terrible card. I am legitimately shocked they printed it. It is going to fuck with design space so much as long as it's in standard. Any time a developer has an idea for a 1-mana spell, they're going to have to consider making it a 2-mana spell instead.
Yeah, I don't like it. Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
On the other hand, Jade Druids deserve to have their fun ruined because queuing up with that deck has the exact same effect.
I disagree, I like the deck, and don't find it horrible to play against.
If they really wanted to create something that countered Jade Druid, this is a super uncreative way of doing it.
I think, if anything, it doesn't actually hurt Jade Druid enough, and most decks that would lose to Jade Druid will still lose to Jade Druid. The design itself, seems pretty standard design for a "Hate" card. It is inherently a bad card. However, it acts as a safety valve such that if the meta warps in some extreme way around a particular deck, then it may be useful. At the very least, it will be a big improvement for the Freeze/Burn Mage vs Jade Druid match since it also kills Earthen Scales. So in that sense, it will make sure the meta never warps too far towards Jade Druid.
It also means people who love Fatigue decks can throw it in so that they don't just lose to Jade Druid 100% of the time.
This is one of the reasons the Geist is such a terrible card. I am legitimately shocked they printed it. It is going to fuck with design space so much as long as it's in standard. Any time a developer has an idea for a 1-mana spell, they're going to have to consider making it a 2-mana spell instead.
Yeah, I don't like it. Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
On the other hand, Jade Druids deserve to have their fun ruined because queuing up with that deck has the exact same effect.
I disagree, I like the deck, and don't find it horrible to play against.
If they really wanted to create something that countered Jade Druid, this is a super uncreative way of doing it.
I never picked this fight as it seemed a general consensus that everyone hated Jade so I stayed out of it, but I guess I don't really get this much.
It takes awhile for Jade Druid to get going, and plays very much like a control shell that just has the benefit of not being able to go to fatigue. It keeps other control decks in check but aggro druid (and most Paladins?) don't even care. Even miracle rogue has their "Ok, I'm going off now so sit back and watch me draw my stuff" phase.
Like is it just that they can't mill themselves out? Does that bother people? Druid has crap all for removal so the non aggro variants kind of just rely on dropping big dudes and then swinging sideways with them.
I don't particularly love fighting Secret Mage but I'm not asking Eater of Secrets to destroy every secret in their hand and deck. I know it's a 3 mana spell compared to a the 1 mana ones, but those 1 mana spells in Jade are what really help it compete. Secrets enable cheap Arcane Giants and whatever the heck those 5/5 "I'm Late" draenei are called (I'll call her White Rabbit for now) while also gaining advantage of whatever the secret does. It doesn't feel that different from what Druid is going except Druid can't get rid of/freeze/stall their board presence. Judging by the Meta Reports, it looks like Jade has more bad matchups than good ones?
And again, I'm all for playing something other than Jade Druid, but I'd like to play A druid that isn't Aggro that I can afford T_T.
Someone just posted this over on reddit and it made me think:
"Playable (in normal conditions) deathrattles in standard:
2x Jade Swarmer, 2 mana
2x Undercity huckster, 2 mana
1x Sherazin, 4 mana
1x So many wonderful poisons, 4 mana
1x Aya, 6 mana
Neutral:
2x Mistress of mixtures
1x Thalnos, 2 mana
2x Igneous Elementals, 3 mana
So if you push it you can put 12 (maybe 16 deathrattles) in rogue without making it un-roguey. Not all synergies with each other though (i.e. igneous is good for combo stuff but not great with Jade build), mistress is very meta dependent (i.e. if aggro is less dominant no point adding it).
Let us assume to maximize this card you put 10 deathrattles. That is one third of your deck. If you were to simply assume draws are uniformly distributed (ignore mulligan for the time being) at any point in time it is not so unlikely one third of your deck would be a DR card.
If above assumption is correct this card draws you at least 2 cards for %33 percent of the time.
of course above assumption is very crude and really depends on how you mulligan as well as how well you know what is left in your deck.
Maybes:
2x Loot hoarder (if you have combo deck and desperate for draw)
2x Infested Tauren (if you are playing N'zoth and really need some sticky taunts)"
This is one of the reasons the Geist is such a terrible card. I am legitimately shocked they printed it. It is going to fuck with design space so much as long as it's in standard. Any time a developer has an idea for a 1-mana spell, they're going to have to consider making it a 2-mana spell instead.
Yeah, I don't like it. Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
On the other hand, Jade Druids deserve to have their fun ruined because queuing up with that deck has the exact same effect.
Jade Druid has less than a 50% win rate on VSyndicate.
I mean, those poor Pirate Warriors, not having fun beating the stuffing out of Jade Druid the same way they beat the stuffing out of everybody else.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said? Like, the quote I was talking about:
Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
Jade Druid vs. Pirate Warrior (or Aggro Druid, or Token Shaman) is the half the time Jade Druid doesn't do anything. Jade Druid vs. Control Priest/Control Warrior/non-Burn Control Mage is the half where it ruins the opponent's fun.
Like, Jade Druid is pretty much "what if mill decks were viable"? A deck type that stomps on other control decks while tending to lose horribly to aggro, except Jade Druid can also beat Midrange because its win condition comes on fast enough for that. It's a miserable experience for anyone else playing a slow deck because they have no chance without some sort of OTK or burning them out (oh hey earthen scales), and I'm surprised y'all are still defending this when we've had multiple people in this thread and even the Reddit hatewagon go on about how awful Jade decks are to play against.
This is one of the reasons the Geist is such a terrible card. I am legitimately shocked they printed it. It is going to fuck with design space so much as long as it's in standard. Any time a developer has an idea for a 1-mana spell, they're going to have to consider making it a 2-mana spell instead.
Yeah, I don't like it. Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
On the other hand, Jade Druids deserve to have their fun ruined because queuing up with that deck has the exact same effect.
Jade Druid has less than a 50% win rate on VSyndicate.
I mean, those poor Pirate Warriors, not having fun beating the stuffing out of Jade Druid the same way they beat the stuffing out of everybody else.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said? Like, the quote I was talking about:
Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
Jade Druid vs. Pirate Warrior (or Aggro Druid, or Token Shaman) is the half the time Jade Druid doesn't do anything. Jade Druid vs. Control Priest/Control Warrior/non-Burn Control Mage is the half where it ruins the opponent's fun.
Like, Jade Druid is pretty much "what if mill decks were viable"? A deck type that stomps on other control decks while tending to lose horribly to aggro, except Jade Druid can also beat Midrange because its win condition comes on fast enough for that. It's a miserable experience for anyone else playing a slow deck because they have no chance without some sort of OTK or burning them out (oh hey earthen scales), and I'm surprised y'all are still defending this when we've had multiple people in this thread and even the Reddit hatewagon go on about how awful Jade decks are to play against.
We're defending it because we disagree with said people?
and I'm surprised y'all are still defending this when we've had multiple people in this thread and even the Reddit hatewagon go on about how awful Jade decks are to play against.
People can have different opinions? Is that surprising?
They should just change the Jade Idol spell to something like:
Choose one - summon a #/# Jade Idol or give a Jade Idol +2/+2 and Taunt.
One mana for a +2/+2 is pretty strong, even if it only targets Jades. Still gives you power creep options while removing the unfun infinite chain effect.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
This is one of the reasons the Geist is such a terrible card. I am legitimately shocked they printed it. It is going to fuck with design space so much as long as it's in standard. Any time a developer has an idea for a 1-mana spell, they're going to have to consider making it a 2-mana spell instead.
Yeah, I don't like it. Half the time it doesn't do anything, the other half it ruins the fun of your opponent. Bad design imo.
On the other hand, Jade Druids deserve to have their fun ruined because queuing up with that deck has the exact same effect.
I disagree, I like the deck, and don't find it horrible to play against.
If they really wanted to create something that countered Jade Druid, this is a super uncreative way of doing it.
I never picked this fight as it seemed a general consensus that everyone hated Jade so I stayed out of it, but I guess I don't really get this much.
It takes awhile for Jade Druid to get going, and plays very much like a control shell that just has the benefit of not being able to go to fatigue. It keeps other control decks in check but aggro druid (and most Paladins?) don't even care. Even miracle rogue has their "Ok, I'm going off now so sit back and watch me draw my stuff" phase.
Like is it just that they can't mill themselves out? Does that bother people? Druid has crap all for removal so the non aggro variants kind of just rely on dropping big dudes and then swinging sideways with them.
I don't particularly love fighting Secret Mage but I'm not asking Eater of Secrets to destroy every secret in their hand and deck. I know it's a 3 mana spell compared to a the 1 mana ones, but those 1 mana spells in Jade are what really help it compete. Secrets enable cheap Arcane Giants and whatever the heck those 5/5 "I'm Late" draenei are called (I'll call her White Rabbit for now) while also gaining advantage of whatever the secret does. It doesn't feel that different from what Druid is going except Druid can't get rid of/freeze/stall their board presence. Judging by the Meta Reports, it looks like Jade has more bad matchups than good ones?
And again, I'm all for playing something other than Jade Druid, but I'd like to play A druid that isn't Aggro that I can afford T_T.
It's not that you can't mill them out, it's that a classic control deck (kill all their stuff, then play your own big stuff) doesn't work against it because they have infinite stuff. I mentioned earlier how Dead Man's Hand is a pointless card because it wasn't the fatigue part of the Jade Idol that makes Jade Druid such a nuisance, it's the infinite arbitrarily large minions. And the big mark against it is that it's boring. Control matchups are fun for control players because it's a resource management game, knowing which piece of removal to use when and which threats to commit. The dance of Brawl/Execute/Shield Slam and SW:Death, Entomb, Lightbomb versus Ragnaros/Ysera/Sludge Belchers. That's so much more fun than dealing with identical, huge vanilla minions.
and I'm surprised y'all are still defending this when we've had multiple people in this thread and even the Reddit hatewagon go on about how awful Jade decks are to play against.
People can have different opinions? Is that surprising?
That at this point in the conversation, some four months later, your response to these points about why we don't like Jade Druid is still "I don't find it horrible to play against?" Yeah, that's a little surprising. I'd like something other than "it is capable of losing to aggro" as a defense to why the things I'm talking about aren't a big deal.
The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
+2
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
Someone just posted this over on reddit and it made me think:
"Playable (in normal conditions) deathrattles in standard:
2x Jade Swarmer, 2 mana
2x Undercity huckster, 2 mana
1x Sherazin, 4 mana
1x So many wonderful poisons, 4 mana
1x Aya, 6 mana
Neutral:
2x Mistress of mixtures
1x Thalnos, 2 mana
2x Igneous Elementals, 3 mana
So if you push it you can put 12 (maybe 16 deathrattles) in rogue without making it un-roguey. Not all synergies with each other though (i.e. igneous is good for combo stuff but not great with Jade build), mistress is very meta dependent (i.e. if aggro is less dominant no point adding it).
Let us assume to maximize this card you put 10 deathrattles. That is one third of your deck. If you were to simply assume draws are uniformly distributed (ignore mulligan for the time being) at any point in time it is not so unlikely one third of your deck would be a DR card.
If above assumption is correct this card draws you at least 2 cards for %33 percent of the time.
of course above assumption is very crude and really depends on how you mulligan as well as how well you know what is left in your deck.
Maybes:
2x Loot hoarder (if you have combo deck and desperate for draw)
2x Infested Tauren (if you are playing N'zoth and really need some sticky taunts)"
Someone on the HS reddit actually did the math for Roll the Bones: http://imgur.com/a/tXIMt (linked because there's two images, but eff it I'll post the first one anyway)
It's not that you can't mill them out, it's that a classic control deck (kill all their stuff, then play your own big stuff) doesn't work against it because they have infinite stuff. I mentioned earlier how Dead Man's Hand is a pointless card because it wasn't the fatigue part of the Jade Idol that makes Jade Druid such a nuisance, it's the infinite arbitrarily large minions. And the big mark against it is that it's boring. Control matchups are fun for control players because it's a resource management game, knowing which piece of removal to use when and which threats to commit. The dance of Brawl/Execute/Shield Slam and SW:Death, Entomb, Lightbomb versus Ragnaros/Ysera/Sludge Belchers. That's so much more fun than dealing with identical, huge vanilla minions.
I was going to type up a big thing about my personal dislike for Jade Druid, but you've said it better than I ever could.
Like that game I posted about yesterday against Quest Mage with Quest Warrior. Understanding how his deck was meant to kill me and trying to work in such a way to deny it, while they try to stop me at every step. It was mentally exhausting but so incredibly fun as an individual match (and it felt like a real accomplishment when I got the win).
The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
Ok I'll break out down this way.
"Aggro beats it"
This bothers you and as a very simple throw away answer, I get it.
But let's look at where you are coming from. "Control Vs Control is fun because" (insert your listed reasons here).
The thing is, Jade isn't really a control Deck, in my mind. It doesn't try to control the board. It just tries to last long enough to do something. It's basically just a LONG tempo deck. Always trying to build up it's tempo but being pretty much unable to challenge the other player's moves outside the OCCASIONAL swipe/Wrath and just hitting minions into each other. It doesn't have the normal control mechanics, I don't think. Sure it can go long but it usually doesn't need to.
But I'm getting too much into details.
Jade makes control not fun or engaging. That seems to be the general of it.
If you're playing Pirate Warrior or Aggro Druid, you know what's SUPER unfun to them? Queuing against a Taunt Warrior. "Well crap ... I'm not really getting by all these taunts and this is a pretty poor matchup". When I pilot Aggro druid, it's just a big eye roll everytime I hit a Taunt Warrior. "Well my deck does nothing here unless I'm lucky and he's not". How is that ANY different? One deck that just makes the other deck super irritating to play against? I'm not trying to be confrontational, by the by. I'm honestly curious where the disconnect between sides are and I'm super willing to be wrong. But I need to understand because I haven't seen an argument yet that has swayed me, I guess, that doesn't apply elsewhere in the same game that they don't have a problem with.
The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
Ok I'll break out down this way.
"Aggro beats it"
This bothers you and as a very simple throw away answer, I get it.
But let's look at where you are coming from. "Control Vs Control is fun because" (insert your listed reasons here).
The thing is, Jade isn't really a control Deck, in my mind. It doesn't try to control the board. It just tries to last long enough to do something. It's basically just a LONG tempo deck. Always trying to build up it's tempo but being pretty much unable to challenge the other player's moves outside the OCCASIONAL swipe/Wrath and just hitting minions into each other. It doesn't have the normal control mechanics, I don't think. Sure it can go long but it usually doesn't need to.
But I'm getting too much into details.
Jade makes control not fun or engaging. That seems to be the general of it.
If you're playing Pirate Warrior or Aggro Druid, you know what's SUPER unfun to them? Queuing against a Taunt Warrior. "Well crap ... I'm not really getting by all these taunts and this is a pretty poor matchup". When I pilot Aggro druid, it's just a big eye roll everytime I hit a Taunt Warrior. "Well my deck does nothing here unless I'm lucky and he's not". How is that ANY different? One deck that just makes the other deck super irritating to play against? I'm not trying to be confrontational, by the by. I'm honestly curious where the disconnect between sides are and I'm super willing to be wrong. But I need to understand because I haven't seen an argument yet that has swayed me, I guess, that doesn't apply elsewhere in the same game that they don't have a problem with.
Honestly? I haven't been playing much lately (and part of why I'm getting agitated about this was the Brann+Jade decks were what started the sharp decline in me enjoying hearthstone, I was actually quite happy with the game towards the end of Old Gods), and I tend not to play aggro much, nor Taunt Warrior, so I'm not aware of the state of those matchups. But I do get that point--classic Dragon Priest felt like that as the Zoo player because they just answer your Flame Imp with a 2 mana 2/4 taunt and you're like "well shit." But it sort of comes back to this idea that I was campaigning on for so long against Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage as a Control Priest and Control Warrior player:
Matchups should not be 80/20, or even more slanted. It's boring as hell and feels extremely bad for the person on the wrong end of it, and especially in the case of Control Warrior vs. Freeze Mage it wasn't even fun to win because it was just mash hero power every turn and remove whatever weenie things they do play.
I don't want Taunt Warrior to have a massive advantage over aggro decks, same as I don't want aggro decks to have a massive advantage over Jade Druid or Jade Druid to have a massive advantage over Control Priest. When it feels like you can't do anything, or that there's only a scant few percentage points (% to win, that is, mtg terminology) by playing well, it makes you question why you're even playing. Player agency is a critical part of games because it's very hard to have fun when it feels like your actions don't matter. And when my opponent topdecks a 4 mana 11/13 after I've burned so much removal already, it feels like my actions don't matter. Just like when I peel a Direwolf Alpha that doesn't help the board math for busting through 15 health worth of taunt.
So like, I'm certainly not saying Jade Druid is the only problem in the game, it's certainly just one segment of the larger rock-paper-scissors meta some commentators have been complaining about with Un'goro. It's just the most visible one to me, and also probably the most severe one--because even if Pirate Warrior has its slanted matchups, it is still a good enough deck to be consistently tier 1. Jade Druid takes a whole bunch of slow decks that would otherwise be tier 2 and makes them complete trash.
Edit: Also thanks for taking the time to type that out, it's much appreciated c:
My reaction to Jade Druid is very similar to my reaction to Quest Rogue, although not quite as strong. Kibler put my feelings into words perfectly when it came to Quest Rogue: "I'm curious, as the deck doesn't really have a good win percentage; it's a sub 50 win rate deck across all levels of play...EXCEPT IT'S BULLSHIT!"
Obviously, Jade Druid isn't as contentious and its win rate is a bit better than Quest Rogue, but it's against those two decks where I'm the saltiest because both incite the same exact feelings of helplessness and rage. And as someone who doesn't like to play aggro, those feelings are exacerbated tenfold.
- my free from amber / medivh / lyra / elise value priest
- my quest druid
these are slow decks that need to function in a control role until a certain evident point of potential value is reached, and then you have to go for it. jade druid runs no hard removal and their desperation play in response to a grim situation on the board is generally to plop down an auctioneer and hope for... nothing.
sure, if they get the jade early, or ramp into draw, it's a tough deck to beat. but it's hardly like aggro's the only way to win
I find it sort of amazing that he hit #1 NA in arena and averaged eight wins with an entire guild of people devoted to sniping him with decks specifically picked to stop him.
Shadowhope on
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Druid is my second most played class with nearly 1500 wins and I dislike Jade druid, it's not much fun to pilot. You don't make many interesting choices and there's not much room for variety. It feels more rigid than ForceRoar ever did.
(Just threw the deck together and the only difference between me and VS is I put Tar Creepers over Harrison and Yogg.)
The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
Not to be rude, but control players being upset at a deck type that is specifically designed to beat them isn't really surprising. It's not really fair to ask jade players to justify their existence any more than it is to ask priests to justify theirs.
There's nothing to really excuse. Blizzard wanted a hard counter to fatigue style decks, which is just as frustrating from the other side of the table I promise you, and Jade druid has performed that role.
The deck is not oppressive and it's win rate isn't porblematic. Blizzard probably isn't super happy with the play pattern (which is why we see a dedicated hoser), but I would argue that it's not even jade idol thats the problem. It's auctioneer which enables ridiculous 10 mana turns with jade idol. With auctioneer gone, jade idol is a much fairer card.
i think linear power growth mechanics are bad, i dislike jade and i dislike c'thun. i tolerate c'thun a bit more because i respect a single payoff more than i respect LARGER AND LARGER MAN
+1
KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
Did you guys see Kripp's video about the sniper guild?
I find it sort of amazing that he hit #1 NA in arena and averaged eight wins with an entire guild of people devoted to sniping him with decks specifically picked to stop him.
i think linear power growth mechanics are bad, i dislike jade and i dislike c'thun. i tolerate c'thun a bit more because i respect a single payoff more than i respect LARGER AND LARGER MAN
I'm not in love with it, but I think incremental growth is fine design space. Being able to put 20+ power on the board in a single turn, and then being able to do it again the next turn probably shouldn't be possible.
- my free from amber / medivh / lyra / elise value priest
- my quest druid
these are slow decks that need to function in a control role until a certain evident point of potential value is reached, and then you have to go for it. jade druid runs no hard removal and their desperation play in response to a grim situation on the board is generally to plop down an auctioneer and hope for... nothing.
sure, if they get the jade early, or ramp into draw, it's a tough deck to beat. but it's hardly like aggro's the only way to win
i never really understood the animosity.
When I play them they always seem to hit wild growth into jade blossom into jade behemoth or something like that. They don't run hard removal but spewing ever bigger minions is often enough if they can get enough jade out early
It's not over yet! Maybe we'll get like... 3 DK reveals tomorrow!
I think they just messed up communications because the stream dude said we'd see the remaining death knights this week but then donais said we would not see them all.
Posts
I think, if anything, it doesn't actually hurt Jade Druid enough, and most decks that would lose to Jade Druid will still lose to Jade Druid. The design itself, seems pretty standard design for a "Hate" card. It is inherently a bad card. However, it acts as a safety valve such that if the meta warps in some extreme way around a particular deck, then it may be useful. At the very least, it will be a big improvement for the Freeze/Burn Mage vs Jade Druid match since it also kills Earthen Scales. So in that sense, it will make sure the meta never warps too far towards Jade Druid.
It also means people who love Fatigue decks can throw it in so that they don't just lose to Jade Druid 100% of the time.
who is the boob lady in the back supposed to be?
https://medium.com/@alascii
I never picked this fight as it seemed a general consensus that everyone hated Jade so I stayed out of it, but I guess I don't really get this much.
It takes awhile for Jade Druid to get going, and plays very much like a control shell that just has the benefit of not being able to go to fatigue. It keeps other control decks in check but aggro druid (and most Paladins?) don't even care. Even miracle rogue has their "Ok, I'm going off now so sit back and watch me draw my stuff" phase.
Like is it just that they can't mill themselves out? Does that bother people? Druid has crap all for removal so the non aggro variants kind of just rely on dropping big dudes and then swinging sideways with them.
I don't particularly love fighting Secret Mage but I'm not asking Eater of Secrets to destroy every secret in their hand and deck. I know it's a 3 mana spell compared to a the 1 mana ones, but those 1 mana spells in Jade are what really help it compete. Secrets enable cheap Arcane Giants and whatever the heck those 5/5 "I'm Late" draenei are called (I'll call her White Rabbit for now) while also gaining advantage of whatever the secret does. It doesn't feel that different from what Druid is going except Druid can't get rid of/freeze/stall their board presence. Judging by the Meta Reports, it looks like Jade has more bad matchups than good ones?
And again, I'm all for playing something other than Jade Druid, but I'd like to play A druid that isn't Aggro that I can afford T_T.
Someone just posted this over on reddit and it made me think:
2x Jade Swarmer, 2 mana
2x Undercity huckster, 2 mana
1x Sherazin, 4 mana
1x So many wonderful poisons, 4 mana
1x Aya, 6 mana
Neutral:
2x Mistress of mixtures
1x Thalnos, 2 mana
2x Igneous Elementals, 3 mana
So if you push it you can put 12 (maybe 16 deathrattles) in rogue without making it un-roguey. Not all synergies with each other though (i.e. igneous is good for combo stuff but not great with Jade build), mistress is very meta dependent (i.e. if aggro is less dominant no point adding it).
Let us assume to maximize this card you put 10 deathrattles. That is one third of your deck. If you were to simply assume draws are uniformly distributed (ignore mulligan for the time being) at any point in time it is not so unlikely one third of your deck would be a DR card.
If above assumption is correct this card draws you at least 2 cards for %33 percent of the time.
of course above assumption is very crude and really depends on how you mulligan as well as how well you know what is left in your deck.
Maybes:
2x Loot hoarder (if you have combo deck and desperate for draw)
2x Infested Tauren (if you are playing N'zoth and really need some sticky taunts)"
That doesn't have anything to do with what I said? Like, the quote I was talking about:
Jade Druid vs. Pirate Warrior (or Aggro Druid, or Token Shaman) is the half the time Jade Druid doesn't do anything. Jade Druid vs. Control Priest/Control Warrior/non-Burn Control Mage is the half where it ruins the opponent's fun.
Like, Jade Druid is pretty much "what if mill decks were viable"? A deck type that stomps on other control decks while tending to lose horribly to aggro, except Jade Druid can also beat Midrange because its win condition comes on fast enough for that. It's a miserable experience for anyone else playing a slow deck because they have no chance without some sort of OTK or burning them out (oh hey earthen scales), and I'm surprised y'all are still defending this when we've had multiple people in this thread and even the Reddit hatewagon go on about how awful Jade decks are to play against.
You could make the old plant Rogue deck for fun around it too.
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We're defending it because we disagree with said people?
People can have different opinions? Is that surprising?
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Choose one - summon a #/# Jade Idol or give a Jade Idol +2/+2 and Taunt.
One mana for a +2/+2 is pretty strong, even if it only targets Jades. Still gives you power creep options while removing the unfun infinite chain effect.
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It's not that you can't mill them out, it's that a classic control deck (kill all their stuff, then play your own big stuff) doesn't work against it because they have infinite stuff. I mentioned earlier how Dead Man's Hand is a pointless card because it wasn't the fatigue part of the Jade Idol that makes Jade Druid such a nuisance, it's the infinite arbitrarily large minions. And the big mark against it is that it's boring. Control matchups are fun for control players because it's a resource management game, knowing which piece of removal to use when and which threats to commit. The dance of Brawl/Execute/Shield Slam and SW:Death, Entomb, Lightbomb versus Ragnaros/Ysera/Sludge Belchers. That's so much more fun than dealing with identical, huge vanilla minions.
That at this point in the conversation, some four months later, your response to these points about why we don't like Jade Druid is still "I don't find it horrible to play against?" Yeah, that's a little surprising. I'd like something other than "it is capable of losing to aggro" as a defense to why the things I'm talking about aren't a big deal.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
Someone on the HS reddit actually did the math for Roll the Bones: http://imgur.com/a/tXIMt (linked because there's two images, but eff it I'll post the first one anyway)
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/6rdogr/i_ran_a_simulation_of_how_many_cards_roll_the/
14-16 Deathrattles seems to be the "sweet spot" as far as getting value on it.
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Googled that and found "Eloise's ..." but apparently I only have 14/30 cards
I could probably replace some of the minions and craft the cheap stuff, but I never played much rogue so I don't have any preps
Death Prophet from Dota... Or yeah, a WC banshee.
I was going to type up a big thing about my personal dislike for Jade Druid, but you've said it better than I ever could.
Like that game I posted about yesterday against Quest Mage with Quest Warrior. Understanding how his deck was meant to kill me and trying to work in such a way to deny it, while they try to stop me at every step. It was mentally exhausting but so incredibly fun as an individual match (and it felt like a real accomplishment when I got the win).
Ok I'll break out down this way.
"Aggro beats it"
This bothers you and as a very simple throw away answer, I get it.
But let's look at where you are coming from. "Control Vs Control is fun because" (insert your listed reasons here).
The thing is, Jade isn't really a control Deck, in my mind. It doesn't try to control the board. It just tries to last long enough to do something. It's basically just a LONG tempo deck. Always trying to build up it's tempo but being pretty much unable to challenge the other player's moves outside the OCCASIONAL swipe/Wrath and just hitting minions into each other. It doesn't have the normal control mechanics, I don't think. Sure it can go long but it usually doesn't need to.
But I'm getting too much into details.
Jade makes control not fun or engaging. That seems to be the general of it.
If you're playing Pirate Warrior or Aggro Druid, you know what's SUPER unfun to them? Queuing against a Taunt Warrior. "Well crap ... I'm not really getting by all these taunts and this is a pretty poor matchup". When I pilot Aggro druid, it's just a big eye roll everytime I hit a Taunt Warrior. "Well my deck does nothing here unless I'm lucky and he's not". How is that ANY different? One deck that just makes the other deck super irritating to play against? I'm not trying to be confrontational, by the by. I'm honestly curious where the disconnect between sides are and I'm super willing to be wrong. But I need to understand because I haven't seen an argument yet that has swayed me, I guess, that doesn't apply elsewhere in the same game that they don't have a problem with.
Matt Place has confirmed on twitter that Baron Geddon/Anomalus do work with DK Jaina:
Anomalus is whatever it's still a bad card
But that Geddon thing... is fascinating... That's a ton of potential Lifesteal, practically on-demand. Even more if it goes unanswered.
Edit: Also I sent him a tweet asking about Shadowcaster and Shadow Reflections, we'll see if I get a response about that.
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Honestly? I haven't been playing much lately (and part of why I'm getting agitated about this was the Brann+Jade decks were what started the sharp decline in me enjoying hearthstone, I was actually quite happy with the game towards the end of Old Gods), and I tend not to play aggro much, nor Taunt Warrior, so I'm not aware of the state of those matchups. But I do get that point--classic Dragon Priest felt like that as the Zoo player because they just answer your Flame Imp with a 2 mana 2/4 taunt and you're like "well shit." But it sort of comes back to this idea that I was campaigning on for so long against Miracle Rogue and Freeze Mage as a Control Priest and Control Warrior player:
Matchups should not be 80/20, or even more slanted. It's boring as hell and feels extremely bad for the person on the wrong end of it, and especially in the case of Control Warrior vs. Freeze Mage it wasn't even fun to win because it was just mash hero power every turn and remove whatever weenie things they do play.
I don't want Taunt Warrior to have a massive advantage over aggro decks, same as I don't want aggro decks to have a massive advantage over Jade Druid or Jade Druid to have a massive advantage over Control Priest. When it feels like you can't do anything, or that there's only a scant few percentage points (% to win, that is, mtg terminology) by playing well, it makes you question why you're even playing. Player agency is a critical part of games because it's very hard to have fun when it feels like your actions don't matter. And when my opponent topdecks a 4 mana 11/13 after I've burned so much removal already, it feels like my actions don't matter. Just like when I peel a Direwolf Alpha that doesn't help the board math for busting through 15 health worth of taunt.
So like, I'm certainly not saying Jade Druid is the only problem in the game, it's certainly just one segment of the larger rock-paper-scissors meta some commentators have been complaining about with Un'goro. It's just the most visible one to me, and also probably the most severe one--because even if Pirate Warrior has its slanted matchups, it is still a good enough deck to be consistently tier 1. Jade Druid takes a whole bunch of slow decks that would otherwise be tier 2 and makes them complete trash.
Edit: Also thanks for taking the time to type that out, it's much appreciated c:
Jade Druid 77% vs Taunt Warrior 23%
Taunt Warrior 51% vs Pirate Warrior 49%
Taunt Warrior 66% vs Token Druid 34%
The Jade Druid vs Taunt Warrior match-up is the most one-sided of the top archetypes against each other.
Obviously, Jade Druid isn't as contentious and its win rate is a bit better than Quest Rogue, but it's against those two decks where I'm the saltiest because both incite the same exact feelings of helplessness and rage. And as someone who doesn't like to play aggro, those feelings are exacerbated tenfold.
I'd say it's HOT!
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- my free from amber / medivh / lyra / elise value priest
- my quest druid
these are slow decks that need to function in a control role until a certain evident point of potential value is reached, and then you have to go for it. jade druid runs no hard removal and their desperation play in response to a grim situation on the board is generally to plop down an auctioneer and hope for... nothing.
sure, if they get the jade early, or ramp into draw, it's a tough deck to beat. but it's hardly like aggro's the only way to win
i never really understood the animosity.
I find it sort of amazing that he hit #1 NA in arena and averaged eight wins with an entire guild of people devoted to sniping him with decks specifically picked to stop him.
Best viewed at 1.5 speed!
(Just threw the deck together and the only difference between me and VS is I put Tar Creepers over Harrison and Yogg.)
It's not over yet! Maybe we'll get like... 3 DK reveals tomorrow!
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Not to be rude, but control players being upset at a deck type that is specifically designed to beat them isn't really surprising. It's not really fair to ask jade players to justify their existence any more than it is to ask priests to justify theirs.
There's nothing to really excuse. Blizzard wanted a hard counter to fatigue style decks, which is just as frustrating from the other side of the table I promise you, and Jade druid has performed that role.
The deck is not oppressive and it's win rate isn't porblematic. Blizzard probably isn't super happy with the play pattern (which is why we see a dedicated hoser), but I would argue that it's not even jade idol thats the problem. It's auctioneer which enables ridiculous 10 mana turns with jade idol. With auctioneer gone, jade idol is a much fairer card.
I'm not in love with it, but I think incremental growth is fine design space. Being able to put 20+ power on the board in a single turn, and then being able to do it again the next turn probably shouldn't be possible.
When I play them they always seem to hit wild growth into jade blossom into jade behemoth or something like that. They don't run hard removal but spewing ever bigger minions is often enough if they can get enough jade out early
More like Dearth Knight Week, eh?
I think they just messed up communications because the stream dude said we'd see the remaining death knights this week but then donais said we would not see them all.
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