The reason I didn't bother arguing that much that Jade Druid is fine is because I generally try to avoid arguing with people who are being super salty about a video game.
I didn't realise that if I didn't do so at the time, that meant "Jade Druid is bad" would become forum law.
OK, so there's a bit of a misunderstanding here, sorry.
I'm not saying I'm surprised someone is defending Jade Druid at this point.
I'm surprised that someone is defending Jade Druid at this point without bothering. You're free to not bother if you don't want to, it's just getting angry about videogames in the end. But when I make these posts listing off the reasons I don't like Jade Druid, which I like to think I'm making fair points of (if I'm just spewing bullshit at this point please tell me and I'll go off for a bit to gather myself), and I get a curt answer about how aggro beats it or something that's totally unrelated to what I said, but is treated as if that excuses it? It's kinda irritating.
The deck is not oppressive and it's win rate isn't porblematic. Blizzard probably isn't super happy with the play pattern (which is why we see a dedicated hoser), but I would argue that it's not even jade idol thats the problem. It's auctioneer which enables ridiculous 10 mana turns with jade idol. With auctioneer gone, jade idol is a much fairer card.
No way man, we're not fixing a card that's been a problem for the entire existence of hearthstone and our beloved "design space" scapegoat, and that we already nerfed once in the laziest way possible. We'll leave that alone and instead print a really dumb card that simply kills jade druid should you draw it in time, no questions asked, while shitting all over our "design space". Perfect!
I would have no issues with jade Druid if either auctioneer didn't exist, or if the 3 idols shuffled into the deck didn't have the "choose one", only the summon a X/X jade golem. Summoning 10+ mana worth of stats once a turn? Sure, okay. Summoning 6 10+ every turn for the rest of the game while you completely avoid the overdraw mechanic? Nah, that feels shitty to play against even if statistically it doesn't go off all that often.
I kinda hope auctioneer gets hall of famed, it's up there with iceblock or alex is just feeling bad to play against at times
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
Why does everyone think Skulking Geist is so great? I don't remember Eater of Secrets slowing down freeze Mage very much.
Like yeah, if every third game I'm playing against a jade Druid I'll throw one in, but there are much better 6-drop cards I'd rather play.
Jade Idol isn't even the real problem, it's Auctioneer. They just need to put that card in the HOF already.
Battletag: Threeve#1501
PSN: Threeve703
+1
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Ice block and auctioneer need to go. Im not sure any other cards are consistently in winning decks. Ice block may seem left field, but honestly, how constraining design wise is the card. They cant give mages other defensive options because they would be impossible to kill.
I like that geist as a one of in priest. A) it wrecks jade Druid which is one of its worse match ups. it's so bad to draw a potion of madness late game vs control decks it'll help there. You will end up in fatigue earlier but you aren't really playing the fatigue game.
I was fairly surprised Auctioneer wasn't sunsetted during this last rotation. The only reason I can think of is that they are worried about how rogue will perform without him. Pros also love him which probably skews Blizzard's perspective a tad.
I would have no issues with jade Druid if either auctioneer didn't exist, or if the 3 idols shuffled into the deck didn't have the "choose one", only the summon a X/X jade golem. Summoning 10+ mana worth of stats once a turn? Sure, okay. Summoning 6 10+ every turn for the rest of the game while you completely avoid the overdraw mechanic? Nah, that feels shitty to play against even if statistically it doesn't go off all that often.
I kinda hope auctioneer gets hall of famed, it's up there with iceblock or alex is just feeling bad to play against at times
I still think the answer to Jade Druid was to just nerf Jade Idol.
Straight up there's a really easy way to do it. Ready?
Jade Idol
1 Mana
Summon a Jade Golem. Shuffle a Jade Statue into your deck.
Whoa hold on, what's a Jade Statue?
Jade Statue
1 Mana
Summon a Jade Golem.
Boom. No more infinity Jade Golems.
The problem of Jade Idol for most people, I feel, is the fact that Jade Druid can never run out of threats. You can go infinite and keep shuffling and Control decks can't outlast it. All Jade Druid has to do is not die and then get to the bottom of their deck and slam Gadgetzan+Jade Idol and start that train.
So this change puts a hard cap on Jades, still kinda retains the flavor of Jade Idol. No longer a Choose One, either.
I dunno that's just an idea, the other idea is literally just break Jade Idol's kneecaps and make it so that it's just a 1 mana spell "Summon a Jade Golem."
Regardless of winrate Jade Druid/Jade Idol (let's be real the problem isn't Jade Druid as a deck it's Jade Idol) is still incredibly frustrating to play against. It has a 70% winrate vs Taunt Warrior! That's ridiculous! Slow decks cannot win because you simply cannot pressure them enough and they can afford to play slow enough to start up the Auctioneer Train and then you're done. Taunt Warrior can win vs Jade Rogue/Shaman. It's tough! But absolutely doable, and those matchups are certainly not 70/30s.
Skulking Geist is rather heavy-handed, and while it's a nice tech card, I'm not sure it was the right choice here.
I don't really see Jade Druid being able to go infinite in fatigue to be a problem. I might just be being narrow-minded about things, but once games have hit fatigue, I think all bets are off w.r.t. game balance. We've seen this before in the past, with absurd Control Warrior vs Control Warrior matchups that are based on who DOESN'T draw cards, because both sides have more removal than threats. Like, whoo, that's so much more fun to play?
If you can't win a game in 25 turns, then I dunno that the devs should be balancing around that matchup. Frankly, there's always a deck with inevitability. If it wasn't Jade Druid, it'd be Taunt Warrior and the Rag hero power. Or it was Control Paladin and their making dudes. (Does anybody else remember the old Control Paladin vs Control X matchup? In which the key was to get Justicar Trueheart and just hero power on every turn?)
That being said, Jade Druid can get to the infinite idols stage before T25. That's somewhat problematic, if I've entered neverendingly larger Jade Golems at T20 or T18. But that's a consequence of the ramp & draw components of Druid too. I dunno that you're that much happier that I've played out all 30 of my cards when you're still at 20 anyways.
Taunt Warrior, btw, loses to Jade Druid not because Jade Druid goes infinite at the end of their deck, but because the Ragnaros hero power hits randomly, and so just throwing fucking Jade Golems on the board stymies Taunt Warrior's endgame plan, particularly once they reach 9/9 in size. I don't lose to Taunt Warriors because I didn't reach the end of my deck; I lose to Taunt Warriors because I haven't been able to keep enough bodies out so their hero power doesn't hit me in the face (or they all got Brawled away). It's the mid-game minions I'm looking for against Taunt Warrior, not the late game Auctioneer + Idol combo.
I don't really see Jade Druid being able to go infinite in fatigue to be a problem. I might just be being narrow-minded about things, but once games have hit fatigue, I think all bets are off w.r.t. game balance. We've seen this before in the past, with absurd Control Warrior vs Control Warrior matchups that are based on who DOESN'T draw cards, because both sides have more removal than threats. Like, whoo, that's so much more fun to play?
If you can't win a game in 25 turns, then I dunno that the devs should be balancing around that matchup. Frankly, there's always a deck with inevitability. If it wasn't Jade Druid, it'd be Taunt Warrior and the Rag hero power. Or it was Control Paladin and their making dudes. (Does anybody else remember the old Control Paladin vs Control X matchup? In which the key was to get Justicar Trueheart and just hero power on every turn?)
That being said, Jade Druid can get to the infinite idols stage before T25. That's somewhat problematic, if I've entered neverendingly larger Jade Golems at T20 or T18. But that's a consequence of the ramp & draw components of Druid too. I dunno that you're that much happier that I've played out all 30 of my cards when you're still at 20 anyways.
Taunt Warrior, btw, loses to Jade Druid not because Jade Druid goes infinite at the end of their deck, but because the Ragnaros hero power hits randomly, and so just throwing fucking Jade Golems on the board stymies Taunt Warrior's endgame plan, particularly once they reach 9/9 in size. I don't lose to Taunt Warriors because I didn't reach the end of my deck; I lose to Taunt Warriors because I haven't been able to keep enough bodies out so their hero power doesn't hit me in the face (or they all got Brawled away). It's the mid-game minions I'm looking for against Taunt Warrior, not the late game Auctioneer + Idol combo.
The problem isn't "going infinite in fatigue" because you don't hit fatigue.
Jade Druid draws through their entire fucking deck with double Nourish and double Gadgetzan way before fatigue even possibly sets in.
It's like the old Miracle Rogue that, again, would draw through their entire goddamn deck and then slam you with multiple Leeroys and Cold Bloods.
I dunno the problem is a lot of things honestly. It's Jade Idol but also just as equally Gadgetzan Auctioneer.
More than anything shit's just brutally unfun to play against as a slower deck because it feels like the game is over as soon as it started.
You guys seem to be approaching this from the perspective that Jade Druid is a problem that needs to be solved, but it really doesn't. Blizz doesn't want decks going into fatigue. They don't want that to be a common game pattern. They want to create decks that discourage that.
All Jade Druid does is highlight how absurd Gagetzhan Auctioneer is as a card. Without it, you're stuck making 1 big threat a turn in the end game and most of the control decks would have a shot in that scenario. And with the printing of this new card there are zero changes that are coming for Jade Idol. This is the answer that control decks can run if they want to increase their percentages in that matchup.
kinda into the divine shield stuff but I wonder if it's enough to make it a reliable approach. it's just difficult to know when/how many shields you can really hold onto. but it's nice to see more ways to try and make it work.
edit2 - eternal servitude seems like a beastly combo enabler with velen. fairly reliable and you might be able to make a deck that just about guarantees it. especially since you'd run two and could maybe discover more. gonna be sick, I'll play some combo priet finally.
edit3 - I like the rogue deathknight holy cow. and I do like what I'm seeing with weapons. that poisonous weapon spellis underrated but needs the right deck.
edit4 - the shaman cards are just silliness. frozen frozen frozen to the point that it feels like it has to be good and then the deathknight is at least gonna be annoying. I don't love evolve personally but the heals are a pain. that's the part that matters to me and like I said, annoying. but these are all between interesting and good as far as I cana tell, I feel like they put in enough synergy that it'll be usable if not great. looking forward to playing it. corpsetaker is also gonna be gross if you run just al akir?
Honestly thinking about jade Druid more, the thing that really broke it is earthen scales. People in here hates reno, hate ice block, hate getting locked out by freeze effects, and that's exactly what Druid gets to do when it gains 25 armor for 2 mana
So apparently with the last patch there were some people that ended up actually having their epic/legendary clock affected in a negative way and to correct that issue Blizzard is adding 2000 dust to those accounts. I was one of them and they notified me by email.
+11
Hi I'm Vee!Formerly VH; She/Her; Is an E X P E R I E N C ERegistered Userregular
edited August 2017
This is a pretty depressing conversation to read as someone who just came back to the game and tried out Jade Druid and was totally stoked by it.
I know I'm not really the target demographic here, it's not like I knew what I was doing, but still...
I guess it's not a huge deal, the other benefit of coming into a completely new meta is that there are a bunch of decks to try. Although I did craft Aya, so...
Edit: I suppose I should ask if there are any other common decks right now I should avoid building because people will hate me for playing them, before I craft a legendary for Murloc Paladin or something and it turns out Day9 has a two minute long video about people who play Murloc Paladin.
This is a pretty depressing conversation to read as someone who just came back to the game I guess it's not a huge deal, the other benefit of coming into a completely new meta is that there are a bunch of decks to try. Although I did craft Aya, so...
switch gears to jade rogue! there's good support coming up and it's where all the cool kids are hanging already
This is a pretty depressing conversation to read as someone who just came back to the game I guess it's not a huge deal, the other benefit of coming into a completely new meta is that there are a bunch of decks to try. Although I did craft Aya, so...
switch gears to jade rogue! there's good support coming up and it's where all the cool kids are hanging already
The thing is, I really like druid, and I've never been a big fan of rogue.
Maybe I'll try token druid? I dunno. Dragon priest could be fun too.
I'm annoyed that I got shitty Legendaries from all my Un'Goro and Gadgetzan packs. I guess I could try to make Quest Mage, but eh.
Unless Jade Druid is really oppressive on ladder, there shouldn't be that many people running the Geist. I don't think Jade druid is dead by any means.
This is a pretty depressing conversation to read as someone who just came back to the game I guess it's not a huge deal, the other benefit of coming into a completely new meta is that there are a bunch of decks to try. Although I did craft Aya, so...
switch gears to jade rogue! there's good support coming up and it's where all the cool kids are hanging already
The thing is, I really like druid, and I've never been a big fan of rogue.
Maybe I'll try token druid? I dunno. Dragon priest could be fun too.
I'm annoyed that I got shitty Legendaries from all my Un'Goro and Gadgetzan packs. I guess I could try to make Quest Mage, but eh.
there are builds of jade rogue that feel less roguey. you can ditch the miracle stuff for lotus agents and deathrattle value-adders like spiritsinger umbra and moat lurkers
but i feel you - druid was my first gold class and while i'm working on others, i still play it a lot. my most fun deck is still quest druid at the moment. depending on what your aims are it may not be competitive enough, but my version has a crack against most decks. it's an underrated build in general and i think eventually some streamer or other is going to figure it out. until then it's hard to hate
Maybe it's just in my blood. I was one of the first people to try out a Secret Paladin deck after all. :P
hey now you can headline secret mage
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
All decks are hated. Play whatever you like.
My problem with jade druid is that it feels as boring as old forceroar druid. Both are the worst kind of mindless decks to me. Just play the biggest man possible each turn. But I realize that this is a taste thing and other people can find more nuance in playing these decks. More power to them.
I try not to get salty about one-sided matchups (like jade druid vs taunt warrior or whatever) because it's clearly a recurring feature of this game now and more a problem with the ladder system than anything else.
PoGo friend code: 7835 1672 4968
+6
Hi I'm Vee!Formerly VH; She/Her; Is an E X P E R I E N C ERegistered Userregular
Posts
death knight weak
I was mulling over posting exactly this purely to do it before you but I didn't think you'd actually go there
Looking at the card reveal silhouette it's going to be a legendary, most probably a DK hero.
1pm PDT / 9pm UK time Friday.
1 pm pdt was 5 hours ago
Friday.
Whoops, yeah forgot to say it was going to be on Friday.
Though you'd think it'd be possible to infer... :biggrin:
no today is thursday
no this is Patrick...
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
No way man, we're not fixing a card that's been a problem for the entire existence of hearthstone and our beloved "design space" scapegoat, and that we already nerfed once in the laziest way possible. We'll leave that alone and instead print a really dumb card that simply kills jade druid should you draw it in time, no questions asked, while shitting all over our "design space". Perfect!
I kinda hope auctioneer gets hall of famed, it's up there with iceblock or alex is just feeling bad to play against at times
Like yeah, if every third game I'm playing against a jade Druid I'll throw one in, but there are much better 6-drop cards I'd rather play.
Jade Idol isn't even the real problem, it's Auctioneer. They just need to put that card in the HOF already.
PSN: Threeve703
I don't think anyone is saying it's great? They're saying it's problematic, design-wise.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
People seem very excited about a 4/6 for 6. Which seems like madness to me.
PSN: Threeve703
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
I still think the answer to Jade Druid was to just nerf Jade Idol.
Straight up there's a really easy way to do it. Ready?
Jade Idol
1 Mana
Summon a Jade Golem. Shuffle a Jade Statue into your deck.
Whoa hold on, what's a Jade Statue?
Jade Statue
1 Mana
Summon a Jade Golem.
Boom. No more infinity Jade Golems.
The problem of Jade Idol for most people, I feel, is the fact that Jade Druid can never run out of threats. You can go infinite and keep shuffling and Control decks can't outlast it. All Jade Druid has to do is not die and then get to the bottom of their deck and slam Gadgetzan+Jade Idol and start that train.
So this change puts a hard cap on Jades, still kinda retains the flavor of Jade Idol. No longer a Choose One, either.
I dunno that's just an idea, the other idea is literally just break Jade Idol's kneecaps and make it so that it's just a 1 mana spell "Summon a Jade Golem."
Regardless of winrate Jade Druid/Jade Idol (let's be real the problem isn't Jade Druid as a deck it's Jade Idol) is still incredibly frustrating to play against. It has a 70% winrate vs Taunt Warrior! That's ridiculous! Slow decks cannot win because you simply cannot pressure them enough and they can afford to play slow enough to start up the Auctioneer Train and then you're done. Taunt Warrior can win vs Jade Rogue/Shaman. It's tough! But absolutely doable, and those matchups are certainly not 70/30s.
Skulking Geist is rather heavy-handed, and while it's a nice tech card, I'm not sure it was the right choice here.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
i mean,
yeah?? i suppose that's
decent?
i don't have any complaints it's just
kinda boring?
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
If you can't win a game in 25 turns, then I dunno that the devs should be balancing around that matchup. Frankly, there's always a deck with inevitability. If it wasn't Jade Druid, it'd be Taunt Warrior and the Rag hero power. Or it was Control Paladin and their making dudes. (Does anybody else remember the old Control Paladin vs Control X matchup? In which the key was to get Justicar Trueheart and just hero power on every turn?)
That being said, Jade Druid can get to the infinite idols stage before T25. That's somewhat problematic, if I've entered neverendingly larger Jade Golems at T20 or T18. But that's a consequence of the ramp & draw components of Druid too. I dunno that you're that much happier that I've played out all 30 of my cards when you're still at 20 anyways.
Taunt Warrior, btw, loses to Jade Druid not because Jade Druid goes infinite at the end of their deck, but because the Ragnaros hero power hits randomly, and so just throwing fucking Jade Golems on the board stymies Taunt Warrior's endgame plan, particularly once they reach 9/9 in size. I don't lose to Taunt Warriors because I didn't reach the end of my deck; I lose to Taunt Warriors because I haven't been able to keep enough bodies out so their hero power doesn't hit me in the face (or they all got Brawled away). It's the mid-game minions I'm looking for against Taunt Warrior, not the late game Auctioneer + Idol combo.
The problem isn't "going infinite in fatigue" because you don't hit fatigue.
Jade Druid draws through their entire fucking deck with double Nourish and double Gadgetzan way before fatigue even possibly sets in.
It's like the old Miracle Rogue that, again, would draw through their entire goddamn deck and then slam you with multiple Leeroys and Cold Bloods.
I dunno the problem is a lot of things honestly. It's Jade Idol but also just as equally Gadgetzan Auctioneer.
More than anything shit's just brutally unfun to play against as a slower deck because it feels like the game is over as soon as it started.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Much less agonizing than lack of capitalization and punctuation. :P
All Jade Druid does is highlight how absurd Gagetzhan Auctioneer is as a card. Without it, you're stuck making 1 big threat a turn in the end game and most of the control decks would have a shot in that scenario. And with the printing of this new card there are zero changes that are coming for Jade Idol. This is the answer that control decks can run if they want to increase their percentages in that matchup.
mr pain
battlecry: give your minions +1 health
i'll hurt you!
Just Warlock things.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
taunt druid is definitely my type of shit
edit - already, fuck desperate resistance. fuuuuuuuuuuuuck that.
kinda into the divine shield stuff but I wonder if it's enough to make it a reliable approach. it's just difficult to know when/how many shields you can really hold onto. but it's nice to see more ways to try and make it work.
edit2 - eternal servitude seems like a beastly combo enabler with velen. fairly reliable and you might be able to make a deck that just about guarantees it. especially since you'd run two and could maybe discover more. gonna be sick, I'll play some combo priet finally.
edit3 - I like the rogue deathknight holy cow. and I do like what I'm seeing with weapons. that poisonous weapon spellis underrated but needs the right deck.
edit4 - the shaman cards are just silliness. frozen frozen frozen to the point that it feels like it has to be good and then the deathknight is at least gonna be annoying. I don't love evolve personally but the heals are a pain. that's the part that matters to me and like I said, annoying. but these are all between interesting and good as far as I cana tell, I feel like they put in enough synergy that it'll be usable if not great. looking forward to playing it. corpsetaker is also gonna be gross if you run just al akir?
I know I'm not really the target demographic here, it's not like I knew what I was doing, but still...
I guess it's not a huge deal, the other benefit of coming into a completely new meta is that there are a bunch of decks to try. Although I did craft Aya, so...
Edit: I suppose I should ask if there are any other common decks right now I should avoid building because people will hate me for playing them, before I craft a legendary for Murloc Paladin or something and it turns out Day9 has a two minute long video about people who play Murloc Paladin.
switch gears to jade rogue! there's good support coming up and it's where all the cool kids are hanging already
Playing a game optimally is always underrated. Winning, as it turns out, is very fun.
The thing is, I really like druid, and I've never been a big fan of rogue.
Maybe I'll try token druid? I dunno. Dragon priest could be fun too.
I'm annoyed that I got shitty Legendaries from all my Un'Goro and Gadgetzan packs. I guess I could try to make Quest Mage, but eh.
there are builds of jade rogue that feel less roguey. you can ditch the miracle stuff for lotus agents and deathrattle value-adders like spiritsinger umbra and moat lurkers
but i feel you - druid was my first gold class and while i'm working on others, i still play it a lot. my most fun deck is still quest druid at the moment. depending on what your aims are it may not be competitive enough, but my version has a crack against most decks. it's an underrated build in general and i think eventually some streamer or other is going to figure it out. until then it's hard to hate
hey now you can headline secret mage
My problem with jade druid is that it feels as boring as old forceroar druid. Both are the worst kind of mindless decks to me. Just play the biggest man possible each turn. But I realize that this is a taste thing and other people can find more nuance in playing these decks. More power to them.
I try not to get salty about one-sided matchups (like jade druid vs taunt warrior or whatever) because it's clearly a recurring feature of this game now and more a problem with the ladder system than anything else.
That was the first deck I tried when I got back!
Maybe there's something wrong with me...