Russia/Trump investigation: Mueller has convened a grand jury

So It Goes

This thread is for talking about:

The election interference and collusion investigation, both in the FBI and congress.
The firing of James Comey, and continuing fallout of it.
The search for a new FBI director.
The special counsel, Robert Mueller and his investigation, et all.
Any further claims about wiretapping of Donald Trump.

Things we will not be talking about:

Impeachment, until further notice. So far this includes a lot of speculation with the investigation itself remaining unresolved, so we're leaving it off the table until a notable event happens.
The media.

Some links re: the latest news

• Trump Team Met With Lawyer Linked to Kremlin During Campaign
• Trump’s Son Met With Russian Lawyer After Being Promised Damaging Information on Clinton
• Former Soviet Counterintelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer
• Donald Trump Jr. Is an Idiot of Towering Proportions

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/opinion/donald-trump-jr-emails-russia.html -- Sums up the whole dealio and what it might mean.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html -- The smoking gun. Donald Trump Jr. LOVES IT.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/politics/donald-trump-jr-meeting/index.html -- CNN covering a summary of the debacle so far.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-lankford-senate-intel-committee-knew-kushner-meeting TPM article linking Kushner to the meeting.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/kushner-security-clearance-amendment-russia-lawyer-meeting-bombshell Talk about Kushner's SF86

https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb314aca65797762a
AP story with Akhmetshin's account of the meeting, and a note that Goldstone is now saying he was in the meeting. (So up to 3 on the Russia side + translator of indeterminate origin)


Official prevention of cross contamination post.

Trump's foreign trip and other foreign policy issues: Foreign Policy Thread
Trump admin/family corruption and grift not related to Russia: Corruption/Grift/Ethics Violations in the Trump Administration
General Middle East goings on: The Middle East Thread
Trump immigration policy, Muslim ban and beyond: Immigration Policy Thread

Reminder: Watergate comparison/discussion is on topic here, but don't get too into the weeds on it.

Unknown

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Fencingsax

In case anyone is wondering, the status of the Trump/Russia situation is: Fucked as all hells.

urahonky

Fencingsax wrote: »

In case anyone is wondering, the status of the Trump/Russia situation is: Fucked as all hells.

And has been since 2016.

Unknown

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Dac

I'm getting so frustrated with how this is being covered at the moment.

Like, what he actually got out of it DOESN'T MATTER! What seems undeniable at this point is that he attempted to collude. With a foreign power. To undermine his political opponent. During the election. I feel like that fact should be being thrown in the face of every spin representative that tries to distract from that issue.

Yet what I see is the same old endless coverage and regurgitating of the administration's defenses and debate over the latest tweet to come out.

FFS this is how he gets out of every fucking scandal.

E: aaaand I started posting this before the media no-no post. Sorry, SIG!

Enc

What do you mean the Bourbons were working with Spain to sell out our national interests? Clearly the Cardinal is the villain here. That's the big story!

Sleep

Dac wrote: »

I'm getting so frustrated with how this is being covered at the moment.

Like, what he actually got out of it DOESN'T MATTER! What seems undeniable at this point is that he attempted to collude. With a foreign power. To undermine his political opponent. During the election. I feel like that fact should be being thrown in the face of every spin representative that tries to distract from that issue.

Yet what I see is the same old endless coverage and regurgitating of the administration's defenses and debate over the latest tweet to come out.

FFS this is how he gets out of every fucking scandal.

It's fuckin mind boggling to watch right?

BlackDragon480

Enc wrote: »

What do you mean the Bourbons were working with Spain to sell out our national interests? Clearly the Cardinal is the villain here. That's the big story!

Sadly, d'Artagnan died taking a Dutch fort and can't look into this.

Burnage

So It Goes wrote: »

If anyone can provide me with succinct list of the reputable articles that came out this week re: Don Jr and this whole meeting, I will put them in OP so we can remember where we started with this particular thread.

Thanks.

• Trump Team Met With Lawyer Linked to Kremlin During Campaign
• Trump’s Son Met With Russian Lawyer After Being Promised Damaging Information on Clinton
• Former Soviet Counterintelligence Officer at Meeting With Donald Trump Jr. and Russian Lawyer
• Donald Trump Jr. Is an Idiot of Towering Proportions

Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud

So It Goes wrote: »

If anyone can provide me with succinct list of the reputable articles that came out this week re: Don Jr and this whole meeting, I will put them in OP so we can remember where we started with this particular thread.

Thanks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/opinion/donald-trump-jr-emails-russia.html -- Sums up the whole dealio and what it might mean.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html -- The smoking gun. Donald Trump Jr. LOVES IT.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/politics/donald-trump-jr-meeting/index.html -- CNN covering a summary of the debacle so far.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-lankford-senate-intel-committee-knew-kushner-meeting TPM article linking Kushner to the meeting.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/kushner-security-clearance-amendment-russia-lawyer-meeting-bombshell Talk about Kushner's SF86

Enc

Noble's Council are working hard to get their failed bread replacement approved. I will be at my desk, cake in hand!

Enc

Versailles is functioning perfectly, focused on HealthCare, Tax Cuts/Reform & many other things. I have very little time for watching T.V.

Couscous

I am not sure how "was the meeting a set up by Democrats" is supposed to make Trump Jr. look any better.
Talking Points Memo guy:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/885860331406450689

GOP Insider Brief is some spam group, but it tracks with a lot of the defenses so far.

Preacher

"Are our interns underpaid and not giving a fuck?"

ArbitraryDescriptor

SiG:
https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb314aca65797762a
AP story with Akhmetshin's account of the meeting, and a note that Goldstone is now saying he was in the meeting. (So up to 3 on the Russia side + translator of indeterminate origin)

Jealous Deva

So Fox is making a big deal about the Obama state department issuing the lawyer a visa, except it eas a b1/b2 tourist/short term business visa? And they give those to pretty much anyone?

Elki

The defenses and spin are a sideshow to an investigation run independently of the administration and with prosecutorial powers.

ArbitraryDescriptor

Couscous wrote: »

I am not sure how "was the meeting a set up by Democrats" is supposed to make Trump Jr. look any better.
Talking Points Memo guy:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/885860331406450689

GOP Insider Brief is some spam group, but it tracks with a lot of the defenses so far.

What kind of maniac just pastes "text" 45 times?

@RNC :
lipsum.com, people!

Edit: Oh, not official. Roger.
Still!

SyphonBlue

Jealous Deva wrote: »

So Fox is making a big deal about the Obama state department issuing the lawyer a visa, except it eas a b1/b2 tourist/short term business visa? And they give those to pretty much anyone?

DEFLECT DEFLECT DEFLECT OH GOD OUR DEFLECTION SHIELDS ARE FAILING

fightinfilipino

Jealous Deva wrote: »

So Fox is making a big deal about the Obama state department issuing the lawyer a visa, except it eas a b1/b2 tourist/short term business visa? And they give those to pretty much anyone?

it wasn't even a visa. it was temporary parole, which DHS can grant if it serves the public interest. parole is not a visa, it's specifically a limited stay for a limited purpose.

the attorney was representing her Russian client in a U.S. court, and DHS at the time rightly so granted her brief entry. because our justice system sometimes remembers that parties to U.S. court proceedings do have a right to representation.

Trump is bringing it up as obfuscation. he is confusing the issue. he probably doesn't even care about the details.

Cantido

ArbitraryDescriptor wrote: »

Couscous wrote: »

I am not sure how "was the meeting a set up by Democrats" is supposed to make Trump Jr. look any better.
Talking Points Memo guy:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/885860331406450689

GOP Insider Brief is some spam group, but it tracks with a lot of the defenses so far.

What kind of maniac just pastes "text" 45 times?

@RNC :
lipsum.com, people!

Edit: Oh, not official. Roger.
Still!

Conservatives and journalists of both sides of the aisle are fond of saying whatever the fuck they want in a headline and putting a question mark at the end of it to avoid liability.

Henroid

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

Mx. Quill

Henroid wrote: »

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

Because both are staffed by immoral shitbirds.

Styrofoam Sammich

Henroid wrote: »

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

They don't care about clearing anyone. They're just trying to make things confusing and partisan.

Butters

We need a new and more extreme term than useful idiot. These clowns are breaking new ground that I am having difficulty categorizing

Cog

ArcTangent wrote:

There was no meeting.

There was a meeting, but they talked about something else besides collusion with the Russian government.

There was a meeting, they offered to collude with the Russian government, and we accepted, but they talked about something else.

There was a meeting, it had a bunch of extra people in the spy business in it, and we forgot to mention them, but it was about something besides collusion.

There was a meeting, it had a bunch of spies in it we never mentioned, they brought what we asked them to bring in order to collude and we discussed it.

WHO KNOWS WHAT TOMORROW MAY BRING!

Well we eventually have to make it to "fuck you, we did it and it was awesome."

Jealous Deva

fightinfilipino wrote: »

Jealous Deva wrote: »

So Fox is making a big deal about the Obama state department issuing the lawyer a visa, except it eas a b1/b2 tourist/short term business visa? And they give those to pretty much anyone?

it wasn't even a visa. it was temporary parole, which DHS can grant if it serves the public interest. parole is not a visa, it's specifically a limited stay for a limited purpose.

the attorney was representing her Russian client in a U.S. court, and DHS at the time rightly so granted her brief entry. because our justice system sometimes remembers that parties to U.S. court proceedings do have a right to representation.

Trump is bringing it up as obfuscation. he is confusing the issue. he probably doesn't even care about the details.

It looks like it was both, she had a temporary parole in effect which expired so she applied for and received a b1/b2. Which again is all pretty standard, as far as I am aware they are issued on a "shall issue" basis meaning pretty much anyone that asks gets one unless there is a compelling reason to deny.

Duke 2.0

I am still confused why nobody has been arrested yet. Is it really holding off until Muller finishes his investigation to get everyone in the court? We can at least put one of them under house arrest or something.

Also thread should be titled High Quality Boys

Cog

fightinfilipino wrote: »

Jealous Deva wrote: »

So Fox is making a big deal about the Obama state department issuing the lawyer a visa, except it eas a b1/b2 tourist/short term business visa? And they give those to pretty much anyone?

it wasn't even a visa. it was temporary parole, which DHS can grant if it serves the public interest. parole is not a visa, it's specifically a limited stay for a limited purpose.

the attorney was representing her Russian client in a U.S. court, and DHS at the time rightly so granted her brief entry. because our justice system sometimes remembers that parties to U.S. court proceedings do have a right to representation.

Trump is bringing it up as obfuscation. he is confusing the issue. he probably doesn't even care about the details.

And "The person I tried to collude with shouldn't have been here for me to try to collude with" is a fucking stupid defense anyway.

tuxkamen

You know... My recollection of the SF-86 when I filled it out online (granted, some years ago) was that you *couldn't* accidentally leave fields blank. You had to explicitly either write N/A, none, or check a box to verify that there was no answer for a particular question.

So... Yeah.

Pellaeon

Henroid wrote: »

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

Because they have no other play

Cog

Henroid wrote: »

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

All that matters is if it's enough to placate the base.

PLA

tuxkamen wrote: »

You know... My recollection of the SF-86 when I filled it out online (granted, some years ago) was that you *couldn't* accidentally leave fields blank. You had to explicitly either write N/A, none, or check a box to verify that there was no answer for a particular question.

So... Yeah.

They can just claim executive privilege for that. Apparently.

Henroid

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

Reminder that shifting the blame is acknowledgement that something wrong was done. I don't know why Fox and the White House think that puts anyone in the clear.

They don't care about clearing anyone. They're just trying to make things confusing and partisan.

True. Someone just pointed out to me on Twitter that, in addition to that, if they're saying Obama did nothing about the bad thing, why are they so against doing something about the bad thing now?

We all know the answer to that, the question is meant for Fox. Which, heh. As if they'd answer.

dispatch.o

There been any discussion on how Twitter will actually play in to this thing?

It got me wondering today, that since a Twitter account isn't like a personal email account and is often managed by multiple people posting under a single user name will there have to be some sort of validation or investigation surrounding each piece of information / post as evidence proving that the post came from a specific person? Or will it be simply a matter of, "Well it's under your verified account, which means you consented to it!" I can see plenty of people being thrown under the bus as various people claim "wasn't me".

Zibblsnrt

Duke 2.0 wrote: »

I am still confused why nobody has been arrested yet. Is it really holding off until Muller finishes his investigation to get everyone in the court? We can at least put one of them under house arrest or something.

Also thread should be titled High Quality Boys

A good chunk of it's probably the difference between "I know you broke the law" and "I know you broke the law and have sufficiently comprehensive evidence to set your defense counsel on fire in front of the judge."

The stakes are a lot higher than, well, most other legal scenarios, so I can see would-be prosecutors being really careful about lining up their shot.

Goumindong

Duke 2.0 wrote: »

I am still confused why nobody has been arrested yet. Is it really holding off until Muller finishes his investigation to get everyone in the court? We can at least put one of them under house arrest or something.

Also thread should be titled High Quality Boys

Because Jr isn't the prize. The prize is the entire GOP.

Henroid

dispatch.o wrote: »

There been any discussion on how Twitter will actually play in to this thing?

It got me wondering today, that since a Twitter account isn't like a personal email account and is often managed by multiple people posting under a single user name will there have to be some sort of validation or investigation surrounding each piece of information / post as evidence proving that the post came from a specific person? Or will it be simply a matter of, "Well it's under your verified account, which means you consented to it!" I can see plenty of people being thrown under the bus as various people claim "wasn't me".

The administration has already declared that the president's Twitter account is tantamount to official communications from the president (which makes shit insanely embarrassing).

As for everyone else, Twitter has verified users (as in confirmed via fucking official identification, it's insane), and those users consenting to staff using the account wouldn't clear them in the court of law. You'd have to make some insane legal argument that someone intentionally got the job with the goal of sabotaging said account.

Elki

I'm surprised at how smoothly the FBI director transition is happening. There doesn't seem to be much of any official fuss about it.

Edith_Bagot-Dix

Duke 2.0 wrote: »

I am still confused why nobody has been arrested yet. Is it really holding off until Muller finishes his investigation to get everyone in the court? We can at least put one of them under house arrest or something.

Also thread should be titled High Quality Boys

Just out of tinfoil hat related curiosity, does an impeachment conviction require two thirds of the senate (i.e. 67 votes) or two thirds of the senators who are present at the time of the vote?