I don't want a Trials exotic because then I'd want to use it, and then couldn't use other exotics. Trials legendaries are great since they can be flexible and used all over. Burning Eye became my go-to PVE weapon. I would hate going to the Lighthouse, and then getting something that made me unable to use it if a different Exotic was basically a must-have for some sort of Raid or PVE encounter.
Plus the hate would be strong.
But like extremely unique looking weapons/armor? Even a unique perk or two (like the current Trials weapons)? I love it. Hell, I'd prefer just like Trials specific shaders/emotes/customization type stuff.
Controversial stance: they should've put a unique exotic in the light house chest
I know folks would hate that. But somehow folks are ok with hard mode raid specific exotics that can be just as impossible for folks to get. I got super lucky on vex mythoclast year 1 but between needing HM atheon and a low drop rate, yuck.
I never got fatebringer which while not an exotic was one of the best guns in the game.
But that's ok. I didn't HM raid enough/ am not good enough at HM raids to get it.
But I know a flawless trials exotic would be hated so much. And I really can't understand why.
Yeah, from loving the new loadout setup in D2, to advocating for weird Trials changes and now this. I can now say I have met my literal polar opposite in terms of opinions.
The skill required to beat a HM raid is much, much, much lower than the skill required to go flawless. They already have exotics hidden behind crucible quests and many people don't have those exotics as a result. They don't need to hide exotics behind a gametype that people have relatively little control over (considering your opponents could be literally impossible to beat). At no point is a HM raid literally impossible to beat (barring bugs of course).
At no point is going flawless literally impossible, if you enjoy Crucible and are skilled at it and are willing to put in the time to get there. I didn't manage to get the Atheon challenge mode down. Me and my group have done everything else, with relative ease. We just couldn't be assed to put in effort on Atheon and just basically didn't really bother. The challenge wasn't impossible, we just didn't care enough to get it done.
I've gone flawless all but once, over the entirety of Destiny 1. I've gotten close a few times, but more often than not I failed. The one time I got there was at the peak of when me, Hermano and Kersev played Trials. We would run cards 2-3 nights of the week. So the time and effort we put in eventually lead to us being able to do it.
Also. I'm not advocating for weird trials changes. I like trials as is. Im brainstorming compromises that can reward it for other players but keep the spirit for those who love it.
I'm not sure how a points based system on card advancement is "weird" either. It's just making the current method a bit more forgiving by letting you grind weekly cards if you can't go Flawless
How is it not impossible for some players? You have little control over getting a full raid team together to do HM raids. I'm honestly not seeing the difference.
I've never done a HM raid that didn't have someone being kind of a jerk during it towards another player. Which is why I barely ever ran it.
That includes some PA runs too. The unforgiving mechanic brings out the worst in folks.
I'm not sure how getting a 6 man team good enough to run a HM raid then pray for rng to be good is any less difficult then going flawless.
One may be harder for some people, one is harder for others. But for some reason one group thinks the other group isn't as valid.
The bolded part here is key.
Raids don't get harder every week.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Controversial stance: they should've put a unique exotic in the light house chest
I know folks would hate that. But somehow folks are ok with hard mode raid specific exotics that can be just as impossible for folks to get. I got super lucky on vex mythoclast year 1 but between needing HM atheon and a low drop rate, yuck.
I never got fatebringer which while not an exotic was one of the best guns in the game.
But that's ok. I didn't HM raid enough/ am not good enough at HM raids to get it.
But I know a flawless trials exotic would be hated so much. And I really can't understand why.
Yeah, from loving the new loadout setup in D2, to advocating for weird Trials changes and now this. I can now say I have met my literal polar opposite in terms of opinions.
The skill required to beat a HM raid is much, much, much lower than the skill required to go flawless. They already have exotics hidden behind crucible quests and many people don't have those exotics as a result. They don't need to hide exotics behind a gametype that people have relatively little control over (considering your opponents could be literally impossible to beat). At no point is a HM raid literally impossible to beat (barring bugs of course).
At no point is going flawless literally impossible, if you enjoy Crucible and are skilled at it and are willing to put in the time to get there. I didn't manage to get the Atheon challenge mode down. Me and my group have done everything else, with relative ease. We just couldn't be assed to put in effort on Atheon and just basically didn't really bother. The challenge wasn't impossible, we just didn't care enough to get it done.
I've gone flawless all but once, over the entirety of Destiny 1. I've gotten close a few times, but more often than not I failed. The one time I got there was at the peak of when me, Hermano and Kersev played Trials. We would run cards 2-3 nights of the week. So the time and effort we put in eventually lead to us being able to do it.
Note that I never said that going flawless was literally impossible. Just that its something that guardians have much less control over, considering at any point in the card you could be put up against literal pros. Is it impossible that any college team could beat the New England Patriots? No, but its incredibly, super duper, highly unlikely and close enough to impossible that it might as well be.
I'm sitting here waffling on this. On the one hand, I agree with Obi that certain things - while not literally impossible - are going to be functionally impossible for certain players. And not in a "git gud" kind of way, just... people have different strengths, Trials can be populated by people whose skill ceiling just happens to be above yours, etc. If you're hiding a piece of content behind something that seems impossible or is functionally so, that can be frustrating to a player who just knows that he won't get there (and doesn't have the time or the inclination to really dedicate himself to it, where other players who are maybe more skilled didn't need to spend as much time and effort).
On the other hand, I've (recently!) posted in this very thread that Destiny 1 didn't deliver on its promise of giving us unique and impressive loot that told our story. The Mythoclast is an example of something that did accomplish this - but "miniscule drop rate" shouldn't be the determining factor and was a failing of how that weapon was handled. So... I don't know. Maybe I'm okay with cool stuff being hidden behind tough challenges and not being accessible to everyone. HOWEVER, in no way should it be the hands-down-best-stuff-and-if-you-don't-have-it-don't-bother-trying-to-raid-with-us-or-compete-in-Crucible.
In fact, I'm kinda okay with even making this aesthetic-item only, as I think I mentioned the last time this came up.
Is it gonna make someone sore not to be able to have the coolest cloak or aura or shader or whatever? Yeah. Nearly all of us are collectors. But I do hope there's a little more "whoa, look at what that guy found" in D2.
Do I need to bust out my mad MS Paint skillz again?
It's a strange source for an inspirational quote, but this is from the first Jack Reacher movie with Tom Cruise:
"James Barr is a sniper. He's not the best, he's not the worst. But he trained non-stop for two years. What does training like that do? What does any training do? Skills become reflex. Muscle memory. You do without thinking. It also makes people who aren't necessarily smart seem smart by beating some tactical awareness into them.
Piggy-backing on what Arteen said earlier, the raids are static. The mechanics, the enemy spawns, etc - it's not going to get any harder from one week to the next. I vehemently believe that anybody can learn how to handle everything the raid throws at you, either through innate skill or through enough practice.
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
Some people are shit at games and will never succeed, that's how it is. Also, some people will never find true love, shitty but true. At least the shitty raiders can get carried by some decent players. God knows I hoist some garbage players on my back and do it every week in World of Warcraft.
Trials is kind of a shitshow where the best players can keep coming back to knock off the lesser players because they're selling carries or because they just want to go flawless 14 times a week, who knows? If you bounce people out of the pool once they've been to the lighthouse in a given week, it means a lot more people (but maybe not everyone) will get there. That does devalue the experience for some, for some they won't care. I think there's enough poopsock hardcore rah rah people at Bungie that letting more people into the lighthouse will never happen.
The curated raids are likely a matter of "We make these fucking things but less than 20% of playerbase have finished the fucking things!" Source (oldish)
That sucks. To me, as to I'm sure as to many players, the Patrol areas are a single homogenous mass that nobody actually pays any attention to. I certainly couldn't name a single area.
Yeah, it's weird they didn't have a map you could pull up while on patrol. I still couldn't tell you the names of a lot of the sections in a patrol after years of playing. Thankfully Destiny 2 will have a map
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I've fought some garbage human players who made me look like a fuckin' superstar. It's a mixed bag for sure. If I paid attention and didn't get ahead of myself, i'd do real well. More often then not i'd get cocky and then get knocked the fuck out.
How is it not impossible for some players? You have little control over getting a full raid team together to do HM raids. I'm honestly not seeing the difference.
I've never done a HM raid that didn't have someone being kind of a jerk during it towards another player. Which is why I barely ever ran it.
That includes some PA runs too. The unforgiving mechanic brings out the worst in folks.
I'm not sure how getting a 6 man team good enough to run a HM raid then pray for rng to be good is any less difficult then going flawless.
One may be harder for some people, one is harder for others. But for some reason one group thinks the other group isn't as valid.
Raids are fixed difficulty. If you're not good enough at the game to beat the raid bosses then enough practice will eventually get you there because they are, uniformly, a matter of knowing the sequence of events and being in the right places at the right time.
Trials is an inherently random difficulty distribution with a dramatically higher top end than the difficulty of raid bosses where becoming good enough to win requires actually improving your skills at gameplay, which is drastically more difficult than learning encounter mechanics well enough to execute them.
I love the way the last raid exotic was handled. A big community puzzle solved by people on reddit and then handed to the rest.
But let's face it, we got it through a raid puzzle carry. Nobody got that gun themselves other than a single digit amount of people. The rest were all carried through that puzzle by getting help on the internets
But we're ok with that. I loved it. But folks who don't go on sites like reddit have legit 0 shot of ever completing that puzzle and getting that gun. Most of them never heard of it.
It's not quite the same. But not every exotic should be given to every player. That gun rewarded the social inquisitive player
a lighthouse exotic would reward the player who is super good at pvp or social enough to get carried
Also while raids are static you're raid members aren't. Not all of us have a regular raid group or schedules that allow for it. So I'd take the randomness of opponents over the randomness of teammates any day.
Edit: Also, I hope me debating this trials stuff isn't annoying anyone. Just bored at work and hyped for d2. If anyone is being turned off by my posts I'll cool it. Hope it isn't somehow being taken the wrong way by folks.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I love the way the last raid exotic was handled. A big community puzzle solved by people on reddit and then handed to the rest.
But let's face it, we got it through a raid puzzle carry. Nobody got that gun themselves other than a single digit amount of people. The rest were all carried through that puzzle by getting help on the internets
But we're ok with that. I loved it. But folks who don't go on sites like reddit have legit 0 shot of ever completing that puzzle and getting that gun. Most of them never heard of it.
It's not quite the same. But not every exotic should be given to every player. That gun rewarded the social inquisitive player
a lighthouse exotic would reward the player who is super good at pvp or social enough to get carried
Also while raids are static you're raid members aren't. Not all of us have a regular raid group or schedules that allow for it. So I'd take the randomness of opponents over the randomness of teammates any day.
Wrong, solving the puzzle required the help and work of hundreds of people. I was one of them! Since each person could only get a single piece of the puzzle and the puzzle itself took hundreds of puzzle pieces. Even then there were multiple hours of discussion and trial and error being done by hundreds of other people. Many people tried the wrong way of deciphering the puzzle, which allowed other people to try new ways. Some people created wrong algorithms that were used as a stepstool for the right algorithms. That was an exotic that I feel confident in saying that the Destiny community truly earned.
Thats not taking into account it took multiple other people finding the monitors during the initial release of WotM.
Edit: Also, I hope me debating this trials stuff isn't annoying anyone. Just bored at work and hyped for d2. If anyone is being turned off by my posts I'll cool it. Hope it isn't somehow being taken the wrong way by folks.
FWIW, I'm not turned off by your debating. Just finding myself more and more amused about how diametrically opposed we are in our viewpoints on this game (and I guess gaming and game design in general)
It's a lot easier to muster up 5 decent to good PvE players than 2 good to great PvP players. Communication and positioning are a lot more precise in Trials, and if you don't have quick reaction times and gunskill, you're already done. Hence why no one is paying for Raid carries but lots and lots of people do for Trials.
Trials exotic would make people annoyed and for good reason. I'd be cool with an exotic Class Item, like the Faction quests. Exotic gun hidden behind a door maybe 5-10% of players will ever open feels like a poor choise.
I'm fine with spitballing ideas for improvements, I've just done a lot of Trials and a decent amount of raiding and they just don't compare well as endgame content goes. Every weekend Sunday Best crushes a raid in under 2 hours even when doing Challenge mode, and lots of other raid groups do the same. Knocking out a flawless run that reliably is just not as feasible, unless you're a godlike PvPer. There's a lot more variables than a raid going on.
Also I could have easily gotten Outbreak Prime but it ended up just being received with "meh" by most users so I didn't bother. An exotic behind a quest isn't tough if you have the answers laid out for you, an exotic behind a flawless run is hard to obtain because the answer is usually "git gud" and pray for no cheaters along the way.
I'm imagining a Raid Race mode, where the team to get first completion getting rewards while the other gets nothing and booted from their raid, no checkpoints.
NEW BAD IDEA: Let's make Trials a Mario Party clone where the rules are made up and the points don't matter
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I wonder the amount of people who got outbreak prime? I'd be shocked if it was much higher than the amount of folks who went flawless.
I never got jade rabbit on ps4 despite sooooo much playing. Wonder what the rate of players who got it is?
Comparing Outbreak Prime to just going flawless is a bad comparison, imo
A better comparison would be comparing the number of people with Outbreak Prime to either
1) The number of people with a fully ornamented Trials gear set
OR
2) The number of people with a specific Trials gun
I'm fine with spitballing ideas for improvements, I've just done a lot of Trials and a decent amount of raiding and they just don't compare well as endgame content goes. Every weekend Sunday Best crushes a raid in under 2 hours even when doing Challenge mode, and lots of other raid groups do the same. Knocking out a flawless run that reliably is just not as feasible, unless you're a godlike PvPer. There's a lot more variables than a raid going on.
Also I could have easily gotten Outbreak Prime but it ended up just being received with "meh" by most users so I didn't bother. An exotic behind a quest isn't tough if you have the answers laid out for you, an exotic behind a flawless run is hard to obtain because the answer is usually "git gud" and pray for no cheaters along the way.
I'm imagining a Raid Race mode, where the team to get first completion getting rewards while the other gets nothing and booted from their raid, no checkpoints.
NEW BAD IDEA: Let's make Trials a Mario Party clone where the rules are made up and the points don't matter
Isn't there a whole thing on youtube where "Luigi wins by doing nothing"? Come to think of it, that's kind of an analogue to lagswitchers. :P
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
Why? In my bad idea one flawless would get you the exotic. It wouldn't be locked behind rng
I think it just feels like to me, people have a problem with gear locked behind pvp way more than they do other hoops. And I don't think that's fair.
Some of us spend way more time in pvp than pve and yet there's a feeling that shouldn't be rewarded with exclusive stuff.
I love doing both but I just find the outrage against pvp gated gear to be flawed. If it was truly because only "x" percent of players will get it, there's plenty of other examples where that's the case and nobody had a problem with it.
It's another way to get gear and define yourself. If anything destiny should have more of that, not less.
I want tons of pvp and pve content that are hard as hell to accomplish that give rewards that make people go "oh man they got X? I want X! Dammmmmnmn!"
Even though I may not be able to get all of it. When I do it'll feel great.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Why? In my bad idea one flawless would get you the exotic. It wouldn't be locked behind rng
I think it just feels like to me, people have a problem with gear locked behind pvp way more than they do other hoops. And I don't think that's fair.
Some of us spend way more time in pvp than pve and yet there's a feeling that shouldn't be rewarded with exclusive stuff.
I love doing both but I just find the outrage against pvp gated gear to be flawed. If it was truly because only "x" percent of players will get it, there's plenty of other examples where that's the case and nobody had a problem with it.
It's another way to get gear and define yourself. If anything destiny should have more of that, not less.
I want tons of pvp and pve content that are hard as hell to accomplish that give rewards that make people go "oh man they got X? I want X! Dammmmmnmn!"
Even though I may not be able to get all of it. When I do it'll feel great.
For the pure sake of discussion and to get an idea of where you are at with this general idea:
Would you be fine if Bungie locked a gun behind a $100 pay wall?
How is it not impossible for some players? You have little control over getting a full raid team together to do HM raids. I'm honestly not seeing the difference.
I've never done a HM raid that didn't have someone being kind of a jerk during it towards another player. Which is why I barely ever ran it.
That includes some PA runs too. The unforgiving mechanic brings out the worst in folks.
I'm not sure how getting a 6 man team good enough to run a HM raid then pray for rng to be good is any less difficult then going flawless.
One may be harder for some people, one is harder for others. But for some reason one group thinks the other group isn't as valid.
You can literally go sign up for a group at any time you'd like to do a HM raid, and have a very reasonable chance of success (that you have to do this on a third party site is stupid, but it is an incredibly easy hurdle to overcome).
Alternatively, I have exactly zero chance at going flawless without being carried by a pro - which requires me to either pay someone money or to be very lucky winning a raffle. I don't think some of y'all players good at pvp understand what it's like to not be good. I fought my way up to have >1 K/D (in normal crucible - and I might fall back below that before D2 launches if I keep playing), so I'm officially average. I literally cannot beat a good trials team.
Maybe I don't understand something here too? But I simply don't believe that a person capable of winning in trials can't do a HM raid. Like... unless someone steals your thumbs. If you can move your character deliberately and hit things when you pull the trigger, the only barrier is remembering some mechanics and spawn points. You're right that I don't think your thoughts here are valid, I guess.
In particular, there's one factual difference that you can't argue. Trials is a completely different animal, and it blows my mind when people compare it to raiding. I think the most important thing about trials is something I rarely see explicitly stated, even though it's inherent in a lot of the complaints. You can't win at trials without making someone else fail. You can't go flawless without making 3.5 other teams not get flawless (you create 7 losses, teams need 2 losses to fail). Literally everyone could complete a HM raid in any given week. The same just isn't true for trials (even if you forced teams that had already gone flawless to sit out, you'd have one team left at the end with no one to play against when they tried their 105,987th card).
There's already exclusive stuff for flawless. Guns, armor, ornaments, ghosts, aritfacts, etc. I want people to enjoy PvP and getting cool gear as much as anyone else, but it's two sides of a weird, ugly, misshapen coin. Flawless rewards were best in Y2, with better armor and guns to collect.
I play PvP almost exclusively in Destiny, especially as time wore on and PvE stuff lost flavor for me. I would say Trials is almost the only reason I still play Destiny, especially during the slow periods and content droughts. It makes more sense for a PvP exotic to be in something like Iron Banner, which is accessible to a lot more people. A Trials exotic would be like unlocking the energy sword in Halo 2 by hitting Rank 50; completely unfair to everyone else.
I dunno, there's only a handful of exotics in the game compared to Legendaries, and being denied a specific one based on your skills in PvP feels weird in a progression based game like Destiny. Even as someone who would probably get and enjoy that exotic, getting it to rub in non-flawless players faces wouldn't bring me joy. It did feel great to get my Counterbalance Doctrine, but everyone should have had a shot at the gun, and not everyone did. Guns, especially ones that effect the meta, shouldn't be hidden behind such a steep curve.
Listen, I love the Lighthouse, going to it alone is reason enough to want to play. The rewards are fine, it's the general toxicity of comp play over time and the inescapable problem of boosting and cheating ruining the environment for honest players. I classify myself as "not terrible" at PvP and have been to the LH over 30 times. I just don't see the point in further widening the gap between the haves and have-nots, when already the problems with Trials stem from people so desperate to win they'll pay real world money to do so, ruining it for everyone else.
I'm fine with spitballing ideas for improvements, I've just done a lot of Trials and a decent amount of raiding and they just don't compare well as endgame content goes. Every weekend Sunday Best crushes a raid in under 2 hours even when doing Challenge mode, and lots of other raid groups do the same. Knocking out a flawless run that reliably is just not as feasible, unless you're a godlike PvPer. There's a lot more variables than a raid going on.I
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
Why? In my bad idea one flawless would get you the exotic. It wouldn't be locked behind rng
I think it just feels like to me, people have a problem with gear locked behind pvp way more than they do other hoops. And I don't think that's fair.
Some of us spend way more time in pvp than pve and yet there's a feeling that shouldn't be rewarded with exclusive stuff.
I love doing both but I just find the outrage against pvp gated gear to be flawed. If it was truly because only "x" percent of players will get it, there's plenty of other examples where that's the case and nobody had a problem with it.
It's another way to get gear and define yourself. If anything destiny should have more of that, not less.
I want tons of pvp and pve content that are hard as hell to accomplish that give rewards that make people go "oh man they got X? I want X! Dammmmmnmn!"
Even though I may not be able to get all of it. When I do it'll feel great.
For the pure sake of discussion and to get an idea of where you are at with this general idea:
Would you be fine if Bungie locked a gun behind a $100 pay wall?
Oh god. I'd hate that. The loot is less of the actual driver for me and more the accomplishment. The loot just add a reason for that accomplishment to be more desired? I guess I like the idea of accomplishing something people want to accomplish but recognize is hard.
There's a sense of pride in that. And admittedly other folks also wanting that accomplishment is part of the desire. I'm sure it's the same thing that drives people to want nice cars?
Edit: the gun behind trials doesn't have to be pvp focused. Personally I'm behind the idea that pve rewards should be pvp focused and pvp rewards should be pve focus to give motivation and a helping hand to the player who is focused on one over the other.
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Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited August 2017
Also I see a couple of "We went Flawless once so its possible for not super PvP dudes to do it".
... Try going Flawless late in Year 3, seriously.
Year 1 I'd call "Possible with patience and good teamwork" - "Get back out there."
Year 2 "Even better teamwork required, a lot more patience and also cheaters are on the rise." - "Wipe. Them. Out."
Year 3 "Possibly have to claw your way through cheaters, lagswitchers, paid carries and multiple top 100 people on your way" - "FIGHT FOREVER GUARDIAN!"
One of these is not like the others, if Bungie still doesnt have a longer term solution on getting PvP casual players engaged in Trials, it will deteriorate again, especially if they bring another bunch of changes that favor only the best.
Y1 was possibly the easiest time to go flawless, and that was the era of Thorn and Final Round Snipers. I'm honestly surprised how sweaty it's been since Y2 but as time went on the population has dwindled a lot.
And to be honest, it's all down to teammates you run with. We all have strengths and weaknesses, so partnering with people who compliment each other's playstyle helps a lot. Sure, anecdotally I may have gone flawless 3 times in one weekend, two runs back to back. But that's the exception and not the rule, and clearly not the average player experience.
Hard mode year one VoG is an entirely different beast than current raids because of how F'd the leveling and scaling was in year one, especially pre-TDW and pre-HoW.
The difference between level 28, 29, and 30 in a level 30 activity was substantial.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
Why specifically, though? What is it about raids that keeps you from finishing? Not dying in PvP is massively more difficult than not dying to AIs pretty much always...
I've watched people who are legit bad at Destiny get through King's Fall and (admittedly NM, not HM) Aksys. It took a long-ass time for us to luck into patterns where the person who was just not good at shooting, jumping, or dodging could either perform their role or fail to do so without causing a failure but we got there eventually.
Y3 trials is likely garbage. But honestly that's all pvp games once the player base dies down.
In assuming trials in d2 will be closer to y1/y2 because the population will he back up.
I'm also ridiculously all for making both trials itself and the lh more accessible. I just don't want to lose the March madness elimination style to do so.
And I think a hardcore pvp locked exotic is no worse than plenty of other gates we currently have.
I think general Crucible is fine honestly, it matches better than Trials and doesn't punish losses. A lot less hate mail and cheaters there, too. It's how toxic Trials has become that really killed interest. Also IB had guaranteed rewards to work towards on top of random drops, Trials had... old armor and motes as drops post-game. There was no guarantee you'd even see the 5/7 rewards.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
It honestly sounds like you just needed a bit more guidance on how to play your role in each encounter, and maybe some more practice in normal mode.
Raid mechanics are obtuse and I can see how that would give your buddy trouble, but once you know what to do and how to do it it's a matter of execution and the encounters only get easier over time.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
Why specifically, though? What is it about raids that keeps you from finishing? Not dying in PvP is massively more difficult than not dying to AIs pretty much always...
I've watched people who are legit bad at Destiny get through King's Fall and (admittedly NM, not HM) Aksys. It took a long-ass time for us to luck into patterns where the person who was just not good at shooting, jumping, or dodging could either perform their role or fail to do so without causing a failure but we got there eventually.
Getting s regular group of 6 together willing to go through the growing pains of mastering a raid isn't easy when you don't have a super fixed scheduled to do so. We had 3 of us and would need lfg to raid. It also takes much longer to do all that than it does to run a card in trials. So the group would collapse and not want to get back together with rabdoms to try again the next time we had 4+ hours
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Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited August 2017
You know Trials year 3 has been a little rough when you can look at the top 50 and recognize a few names from there, you met these types when your luck hit rock bottom during Trials.
I distinctly remember fighting a guy called Trials mvp, he was a fucking monster. (Currently ranked 8th in Trials of Osiris, ELO rating 3030) but we did all right, I think we lost 3-5.
I wonder the amount of people who got outbreak prime? I'd be shocked if it was much higher than the amount of folks who went flawless.
I never got jade rabbit on ps4 despite sooooo much playing. Wonder what the rate of players who got it is?
I would in turn be shocked if it wasn't the opposite (i.e. way more had OP than have gone flawless). I'm annoyed that I can't easily answer the question though. I don't know how to answer this exactly, but maybe we can get a rough idea. Trialsreport tracks how many characters get flawless every week (it says "accounts", but the FAQ indicates that it tracks it by character, and this number hovers between 18k and 50k.
I don't know how to get total numbers on trophies, but one site that tracks only half a million players has 28000 with the trophy for beating the HM WotM.
Outbreak prime back when it came out accounted for 2% of crucible kills. Since it came out, it has accounted for ~12% of kills in all raids.
I can't promise it but that is leaning, to me, toward way more people having the gun than going flawless.
I think the salt towards PvP gated loot comes from PvP feeling more random; if you can remember patterns and keep your gun pointed straight and don't mind grinding you can beat pve stuff. You can be trying your ass off and have a bad PvP night because of matchmaking or something about the way you're playing or the phase of the Moon or who knows what. I think PvP feels harder to most people, even if some feel like it isn't.
You can get a good Saladin's Vigil if you're willing to be patient and grind the Forge and that's at least sort of fun. Until they opened Trials guns up with bounties you couldn't get a Trials legendary without throwing yourself into a meat grinder and praying to RNG or really getting good at PvP and that isn't everyone's bag.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
Why specifically, though? What is it about raids that keeps you from finishing? Not dying in PvP is massively more difficult than not dying to AIs pretty much always...
I've watched people who are legit bad at Destiny get through King's Fall and (admittedly NM, not HM) Aksys. It took a long-ass time for us to luck into patterns where the person who was just not good at shooting, jumping, or dodging could either perform their role or fail to do so without causing a failure but we got there eventually.
Getting s regular group of 6 together willing to go through the growing pains of mastering a raid isn't easy when you don't have a super fixed scheduled to do so. We had 3 of us and would need lfg to raid. It also takes much longer to do all that than it does to run a card in trials. So the group would collapse and not want to get back together with rabdoms to try again the next time we had 4+ hours
You can go on the100, find a group, and do a HM raid, I promise. It does not take 4+ hours, you don't need to finish with the same group you started, they've been mastered already and people can teach you.
If someone wanted to argue that doing a raid blind in the first week was as hard as going flawless, sure, I could see that. Today, a potato could do HM Wrath of the Machine if it had an account on the100. Again, that a 3rd party site is needed is stupid, but it is ridiculously low effort.
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Plus the hate would be strong.
But like extremely unique looking weapons/armor? Even a unique perk or two (like the current Trials weapons)? I love it. Hell, I'd prefer just like Trials specific shaders/emotes/customization type stuff.
At no point is going flawless literally impossible, if you enjoy Crucible and are skilled at it and are willing to put in the time to get there. I didn't manage to get the Atheon challenge mode down. Me and my group have done everything else, with relative ease. We just couldn't be assed to put in effort on Atheon and just basically didn't really bother. The challenge wasn't impossible, we just didn't care enough to get it done.
I've gone flawless all but once, over the entirety of Destiny 1. I've gotten close a few times, but more often than not I failed. The one time I got there was at the peak of when me, Hermano and Kersev played Trials. We would run cards 2-3 nights of the week. So the time and effort we put in eventually lead to us being able to do it.
I'm not sure how a points based system on card advancement is "weird" either. It's just making the current method a bit more forgiving by letting you grind weekly cards if you can't go Flawless
Raids don't get harder every week.
Note that I never said that going flawless was literally impossible. Just that its something that guardians have much less control over, considering at any point in the card you could be put up against literal pros. Is it impossible that any college team could beat the New England Patriots? No, but its incredibly, super duper, highly unlikely and close enough to impossible that it might as well be.
On the other hand, I've (recently!) posted in this very thread that Destiny 1 didn't deliver on its promise of giving us unique and impressive loot that told our story. The Mythoclast is an example of something that did accomplish this - but "miniscule drop rate" shouldn't be the determining factor and was a failing of how that weapon was handled. So... I don't know. Maybe I'm okay with cool stuff being hidden behind tough challenges and not being accessible to everyone. HOWEVER, in no way should it be the hands-down-best-stuff-and-if-you-don't-have-it-don't-bother-trying-to-raid-with-us-or-compete-in-Crucible.
In fact, I'm kinda okay with even making this aesthetic-item only, as I think I mentioned the last time this came up.
Is it gonna make someone sore not to be able to have the coolest cloak or aura or shader or whatever? Yeah. Nearly all of us are collectors. But I do hope there's a little more "whoa, look at what that guy found" in D2.
It's a strange source for an inspirational quote, but this is from the first Jack Reacher movie with Tom Cruise:
Piggy-backing on what Arteen said earlier, the raids are static. The mechanics, the enemy spawns, etc - it's not going to get any harder from one week to the next. I vehemently believe that anybody can learn how to handle everything the raid throws at you, either through innate skill or through enough practice.
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
Trials is kind of a shitshow where the best players can keep coming back to knock off the lesser players because they're selling carries or because they just want to go flawless 14 times a week, who knows? If you bounce people out of the pool once they've been to the lighthouse in a given week, it means a lot more people (but maybe not everyone) will get there. That does devalue the experience for some, for some they won't care. I think there's enough poopsock hardcore rah rah people at Bungie that letting more people into the lighthouse will never happen.
The curated raids are likely a matter of "We make these fucking things but less than 20% of playerbase have finished the fucking things!" Source (oldish)
Yeah, it's weird they didn't have a map you could pull up while on patrol. I still couldn't tell you the names of a lot of the sections in a patrol after years of playing. Thankfully Destiny 2 will have a map
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
FTFY? I mostly agree with you.
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
Raids are fixed difficulty. If you're not good enough at the game to beat the raid bosses then enough practice will eventually get you there because they are, uniformly, a matter of knowing the sequence of events and being in the right places at the right time.
Trials is an inherently random difficulty distribution with a dramatically higher top end than the difficulty of raid bosses where becoming good enough to win requires actually improving your skills at gameplay, which is drastically more difficult than learning encounter mechanics well enough to execute them.
Until an AI figures out how to lagswitch and headglitch, I stand by my statement
But let's face it, we got it through a raid puzzle carry. Nobody got that gun themselves other than a single digit amount of people. The rest were all carried through that puzzle by getting help on the internets
But we're ok with that. I loved it. But folks who don't go on sites like reddit have legit 0 shot of ever completing that puzzle and getting that gun. Most of them never heard of it.
It's not quite the same. But not every exotic should be given to every player. That gun rewarded the social inquisitive player
a lighthouse exotic would reward the player who is super good at pvp or social enough to get carried
Also while raids are static you're raid members aren't. Not all of us have a regular raid group or schedules that allow for it. So I'd take the randomness of opponents over the randomness of teammates any day.
Edit: Also, I hope me debating this trials stuff isn't annoying anyone. Just bored at work and hyped for d2. If anyone is being turned off by my posts I'll cool it. Hope it isn't somehow being taken the wrong way by folks.
Wrong, solving the puzzle required the help and work of hundreds of people. I was one of them! Since each person could only get a single piece of the puzzle and the puzzle itself took hundreds of puzzle pieces. Even then there were multiple hours of discussion and trial and error being done by hundreds of other people. Many people tried the wrong way of deciphering the puzzle, which allowed other people to try new ways. Some people created wrong algorithms that were used as a stepstool for the right algorithms. That was an exotic that I feel confident in saying that the Destiny community truly earned.
Thats not taking into account it took multiple other people finding the monitors during the initial release of WotM.
FWIW, I'm not turned off by your debating. Just finding myself more and more amused about how diametrically opposed we are in our viewpoints on this game (and I guess gaming and game design in general)
Trials exotic would make people annoyed and for good reason. I'd be cool with an exotic Class Item, like the Faction quests. Exotic gun hidden behind a door maybe 5-10% of players will ever open feels like a poor choise.
I never got jade rabbit on ps4 despite sooooo much playing. Wonder what the rate of players who got it is?
Also I could have easily gotten Outbreak Prime but it ended up just being received with "meh" by most users so I didn't bother. An exotic behind a quest isn't tough if you have the answers laid out for you, an exotic behind a flawless run is hard to obtain because the answer is usually "git gud" and pray for no cheaters along the way.
I'm imagining a Raid Race mode, where the team to get first completion getting rewards while the other gets nothing and booted from their raid, no checkpoints.
NEW BAD IDEA: Let's make Trials a Mario Party clone where the rules are made up and the points don't matter
Comparing Outbreak Prime to just going flawless is a bad comparison, imo
A better comparison would be comparing the number of people with Outbreak Prime to either
1) The number of people with a fully ornamented Trials gear set
OR
2) The number of people with a specific Trials gun
Isn't there a whole thing on youtube where "Luigi wins by doing nothing"? Come to think of it, that's kind of an analogue to lagswitchers. :P
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
I think it just feels like to me, people have a problem with gear locked behind pvp way more than they do other hoops. And I don't think that's fair.
Some of us spend way more time in pvp than pve and yet there's a feeling that shouldn't be rewarded with exclusive stuff.
I love doing both but I just find the outrage against pvp gated gear to be flawed. If it was truly because only "x" percent of players will get it, there's plenty of other examples where that's the case and nobody had a problem with it.
It's another way to get gear and define yourself. If anything destiny should have more of that, not less.
I want tons of pvp and pve content that are hard as hell to accomplish that give rewards that make people go "oh man they got X? I want X! Dammmmmnmn!"
Even though I may not be able to get all of it. When I do it'll feel great.
For the pure sake of discussion and to get an idea of where you are at with this general idea:
Would you be fine if Bungie locked a gun behind a $100 pay wall?
You can literally go sign up for a group at any time you'd like to do a HM raid, and have a very reasonable chance of success (that you have to do this on a third party site is stupid, but it is an incredibly easy hurdle to overcome).
Alternatively, I have exactly zero chance at going flawless without being carried by a pro - which requires me to either pay someone money or to be very lucky winning a raffle. I don't think some of y'all players good at pvp understand what it's like to not be good. I fought my way up to have >1 K/D (in normal crucible - and I might fall back below that before D2 launches if I keep playing), so I'm officially average. I literally cannot beat a good trials team.
Maybe I don't understand something here too? But I simply don't believe that a person capable of winning in trials can't do a HM raid. Like... unless someone steals your thumbs. If you can move your character deliberately and hit things when you pull the trigger, the only barrier is remembering some mechanics and spawn points. You're right that I don't think your thoughts here are valid, I guess.
In particular, there's one factual difference that you can't argue. Trials is a completely different animal, and it blows my mind when people compare it to raiding. I think the most important thing about trials is something I rarely see explicitly stated, even though it's inherent in a lot of the complaints. You can't win at trials without making someone else fail. You can't go flawless without making 3.5 other teams not get flawless (you create 7 losses, teams need 2 losses to fail). Literally everyone could complete a HM raid in any given week. The same just isn't true for trials (even if you forced teams that had already gone flawless to sit out, you'd have one team left at the end with no one to play against when they tried their 105,987th card).
I play PvP almost exclusively in Destiny, especially as time wore on and PvE stuff lost flavor for me. I would say Trials is almost the only reason I still play Destiny, especially during the slow periods and content droughts. It makes more sense for a PvP exotic to be in something like Iron Banner, which is accessible to a lot more people. A Trials exotic would be like unlocking the energy sword in Halo 2 by hitting Rank 50; completely unfair to everyone else.
I dunno, there's only a handful of exotics in the game compared to Legendaries, and being denied a specific one based on your skills in PvP feels weird in a progression based game like Destiny. Even as someone who would probably get and enjoy that exotic, getting it to rub in non-flawless players faces wouldn't bring me joy. It did feel great to get my Counterbalance Doctrine, but everyone should have had a shot at the gun, and not everyone did. Guns, especially ones that effect the meta, shouldn't be hidden behind such a steep curve.
Listen, I love the Lighthouse, going to it alone is reason enough to want to play. The rewards are fine, it's the general toxicity of comp play over time and the inescapable problem of boosting and cheating ruining the environment for honest players. I classify myself as "not terrible" at PvP and have been to the LH over 30 times. I just don't see the point in further widening the gap between the haves and have-nots, when already the problems with Trials stem from people so desperate to win they'll pay real world money to do so, ruining it for everyone else.
Honestly, I'm in the exact opposite boat. In year 1 and 2 my group of 3 would easily go flawless multiple times a week. We d have a super hard time doing raids. We only finished hard mode VoG once.
My buddy is so good at destiny pvp. But I don't think he ever finished s raid other that VoG. And it wasn't from lack of trying.
We also hated cheese tactics which put us in conflict with a lot of lfg groups.
Point is, going flawless for him (and to a lesser extent me) was much much easier than completing a hard mode raid even once.
I guess you could tell us we needed to try harder? That eventually we'd get it. But I'm not sure that's any different than a pvp player telling a pve player to "git gud"
Oh god. I'd hate that. The loot is less of the actual driver for me and more the accomplishment. The loot just add a reason for that accomplishment to be more desired? I guess I like the idea of accomplishing something people want to accomplish but recognize is hard.
There's a sense of pride in that. And admittedly other folks also wanting that accomplishment is part of the desire. I'm sure it's the same thing that drives people to want nice cars?
Edit: the gun behind trials doesn't have to be pvp focused. Personally I'm behind the idea that pve rewards should be pvp focused and pvp rewards should be pve focus to give motivation and a helping hand to the player who is focused on one over the other.
... Try going Flawless late in Year 3, seriously.
Year 1 I'd call "Possible with patience and good teamwork" - "Get back out there."
Year 2 "Even better teamwork required, a lot more patience and also cheaters are on the rise." - "Wipe. Them. Out."
Year 3 "Possibly have to claw your way through cheaters, lagswitchers, paid carries and multiple top 100 people on your way" - "FIGHT FOREVER GUARDIAN!"
One of these is not like the others, if Bungie still doesnt have a longer term solution on getting PvP casual players engaged in Trials, it will deteriorate again, especially if they bring another bunch of changes that favor only the best.
And to be honest, it's all down to teammates you run with. We all have strengths and weaknesses, so partnering with people who compliment each other's playstyle helps a lot. Sure, anecdotally I may have gone flawless 3 times in one weekend, two runs back to back. But that's the exception and not the rule, and clearly not the average player experience.
The difference between level 28, 29, and 30 in a level 30 activity was substantial.
Why specifically, though? What is it about raids that keeps you from finishing? Not dying in PvP is massively more difficult than not dying to AIs pretty much always...
I've watched people who are legit bad at Destiny get through King's Fall and (admittedly NM, not HM) Aksys. It took a long-ass time for us to luck into patterns where the person who was just not good at shooting, jumping, or dodging could either perform their role or fail to do so without causing a failure but we got there eventually.
In assuming trials in d2 will be closer to y1/y2 because the population will he back up.
I'm also ridiculously all for making both trials itself and the lh more accessible. I just don't want to lose the March madness elimination style to do so.
And I think a hardcore pvp locked exotic is no worse than plenty of other gates we currently have.
It honestly sounds like you just needed a bit more guidance on how to play your role in each encounter, and maybe some more practice in normal mode.
Raid mechanics are obtuse and I can see how that would give your buddy trouble, but once you know what to do and how to do it it's a matter of execution and the encounters only get easier over time.
Getting s regular group of 6 together willing to go through the growing pains of mastering a raid isn't easy when you don't have a super fixed scheduled to do so. We had 3 of us and would need lfg to raid. It also takes much longer to do all that than it does to run a card in trials. So the group would collapse and not want to get back together with rabdoms to try again the next time we had 4+ hours
I distinctly remember fighting a guy called Trials mvp, he was a fucking monster. (Currently ranked 8th in Trials of Osiris, ELO rating 3030) but we did all right, I think we lost 3-5.
The Destiny 2 info I'm most interested in, is probably weapon mods and especially how Trials of the Nine will work.
I would in turn be shocked if it wasn't the opposite (i.e. way more had OP than have gone flawless). I'm annoyed that I can't easily answer the question though. I don't know how to answer this exactly, but maybe we can get a rough idea. Trialsreport tracks how many characters get flawless every week (it says "accounts", but the FAQ indicates that it tracks it by character, and this number hovers between 18k and 50k.
I don't know how to get total numbers on trophies, but one site that tracks only half a million players has 28000 with the trophy for beating the HM WotM.
Outbreak prime back when it came out accounted for 2% of crucible kills. Since it came out, it has accounted for ~12% of kills in all raids.
I can't promise it but that is leaning, to me, toward way more people having the gun than going flawless.
You can get a good Saladin's Vigil if you're willing to be patient and grind the Forge and that's at least sort of fun. Until they opened Trials guns up with bounties you couldn't get a Trials legendary without throwing yourself into a meat grinder and praying to RNG or really getting good at PvP and that isn't everyone's bag.
You can go on the100, find a group, and do a HM raid, I promise. It does not take 4+ hours, you don't need to finish with the same group you started, they've been mastered already and people can teach you.
If someone wanted to argue that doing a raid blind in the first week was as hard as going flawless, sure, I could see that. Today, a potato could do HM Wrath of the Machine if it had an account on the100. Again, that a 3rd party site is needed is stupid, but it is ridiculously low effort.