I think the thing that bothers me is that I feel like the "validate their opinions" respect is only going one way on this particular topic. I can understand and respect why some folks are bummed out re:Lup. I don't think they're wrong or bad for holding that opinion even though I disagree, and I do hope that the McElroys take the opportunity to learn from that feedback and do better in the future.
However, it doesn't feel like that respect is going the other way. The bummed-outs are being treated as having a more objective, more intelligent opinion and I just don't think that's the case. People who are into Lup are being sideways trashed as though they're just settling for some lower standard, as though they couldn't possibly feel that way if they were engaging critically with the material. It's snobbery, at best.
Like, it's valid to be upset. But it doesn't make you any more rational, thoughtful, or authentically queer than the queer folks who aren't upset, which is the unfortunate vibe I get from this discussion.
I don't see how respectfully listening to and considering the well-reasoned complaints and criticisms of trans folks in this community is snobbery. They've raised some valid points and I don't feel like "yeah well other people are cool with it" really adds much to the conversation in this case.
Like, if you actually read what's been written, it's been acknowledged on multiple occasions that other trans folks have no problem with this and that their opinions are also valid. This isn't a right/wrong situation and the only people I've seen who are framing it as such are the ones who feel the need to defend the McElroys against criticism. If you truly respect why people are bummed out about Lup, maybe let them just be bummed out and acknowledge their points without tacking on a "but also".
What I'm saying is that I don't think the bolded is fully accurate to the tone the conversation usually takes in here. When people say "it's OK if you like Lup", it's often framed in the same way someone would say, "I mean, you can eat trash if you want. I'll be over here eating REAL food." It's snide and unnecessary.
If you haven't felt that, cool. I'm just chipping in that, to me, the tone in here has felt shitty. I'm mostly (mostly) straight, so I understand I don't have a dog directly in this fight, but my partner falls into the "queer folks who love Lup" camp, so I hope you can understand how I would get a little riled internally when things seem a little snide towards her.
I like everyone in here, from what I've seen. I don't intend this as an attack, just, like...a thought.
I think that's projection. It's also really, really common for any sort of minority discourse that criticizes something, especially something popular, to be immediately interpreted as combative or dismissive, so I really prefer to give minority voices the benefit of the doubt on tone. There are biases at play there that I can't trust myself not to fall victim to and I'd rather not see salient criticism get overshadowed by arguments over tone.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
I think the thing that bothers me is that I feel like the "validate their opinions" respect is only going one way on this particular topic. I can understand and respect why some folks are bummed out re:Lup. I don't think they're wrong or bad for holding that opinion even though I disagree, and I do hope that the McElroys take the opportunity to learn from that feedback and do better in the future.
However, it doesn't feel like that respect is going the other way. The bummed-outs are being treated as having a more objective, more intelligent opinion and I just don't think that's the case. People who are into Lup are being sideways trashed as though they're just settling for some lower standard, as though they couldn't possibly feel that way if they were engaging critically with the material. It's snobbery, at best.
Like, it's valid to be upset. But it doesn't make you any more rational, thoughtful, or authentically queer than the queer folks who aren't upset, which is the unfortunate vibe I get from this discussion.
I don't see how respectfully listening to and considering the well-reasoned complaints and criticisms of trans folks in this community is snobbery. They've raised some valid points and I don't feel like "yeah well other people are cool with it" really adds much to the conversation in this case.
Like, if you actually read what's been written, it's been acknowledged on multiple occasions that other trans folks have no problem with this and that their opinions are also valid. This isn't a right/wrong situation and the only people I've seen who are framing it as such are the ones who feel the need to defend the McElroys against criticism. If you truly respect why people are bummed out about Lup, maybe let them just be bummed out and acknowledge their points without tacking on a "but also".
What I'm saying is that I don't think the bolded is fully accurate to the tone the conversation usually takes in here. When people say "it's OK if you like Lup", it's often framed in the same way someone would say, "I mean, you can eat trash if you want. I'll be over here eating REAL food." It's snide and unnecessary.
If you haven't felt that, cool. I'm just chipping in that, to me, the tone in here has felt shitty. I'm mostly (mostly) straight, so I understand I don't have a dog directly in this fight, but my partner falls into the "queer folks who love Lup" camp, so I hope you can understand how I would get a little riled internally when things seem a little snide towards her.
I like everyone in here, from what I've seen. I don't intend this as an attack, just, like...a thought.
I think that's projection. It's also really, really common for any sort of minority discourse that criticizes something, especially something popular, to be immediately interpreted as combative or dismissive, so I really prefer to give minority voices the benefit of the doubt on tone. There are biases at play there that I can't trust myself not to fall victim to and I'd rather not see salient criticism get overshadowed by arguments over tone.
This is a possibility. I don't think it accounts for the entirety of my perception on this, but it's no doubt a component.
my mother in law has two goats named bonnie and clyde and sometimes I just watch them bounce around for hours and think about what it would be like to be a goat and I think I'd like to be a goat
You mean like you want to have some sort of I have no mouth but I must scream situation inside a goats body or like you want to be as stupid as a goat inside a goats body
Broke as fuck in the style of the times. Gratitude is all that can return on your generosity.
You mean like you want to have some sort of I have no mouth but I must scream situation inside a goats body or like you want to be as stupid as a goat inside a goats body
You mean like you want to have some sort of I have no mouth but I must scream situation inside a goats body or like you want to be as stupid as a goat inside a goats body
yes
Those are two mutually exclusive situations you cannot intelligibly respond to my question with an unqualified affirmative please try again
Broke as fuck in the style of the times. Gratitude is all that can return on your generosity.
You mean like you want to have some sort of I have no mouth but I must scream situation inside a goats body or like you want to be as stupid as a goat inside a goats body
yes
Those are two mutually exclusive situations you cannot intelligibly respond to my question with an unqualified affirmative please try again
I learned about this arm things in a book I read as a teenager about learning how to become a werewolf
I think we just one two punched the most "us" posts there.
I don't think either had quite enough of our trademark pretension, but yeah, it's pretty good.
I still own that book, and it is one of the funniest things to reread now. I got rid of most of the other stuff from my gothic neo-druidism phase, but that one is a treasure.
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I think that's projection. It's also really, really common for any sort of minority discourse that criticizes something, especially something popular, to be immediately interpreted as combative or dismissive, so I really prefer to give minority voices the benefit of the doubt on tone. There are biases at play there that I can't trust myself not to fall victim to and I'd rather not see salient criticism get overshadowed by arguments over tone.
This is a possibility. I don't think it accounts for the entirety of my perception on this, but it's no doubt a component.
Couldnt the same be said for reading threads were people complain about Dan
sure? I don't care though
Its just weird to me that people hate him so much they complain about him constantly when there is an extremely easy solution
Just stop torturing yourselves
oh
Keep going then
Here hold on let me find a Dan Best Of
I thought you were a goat man
and now I've tripped over you
when will this horrific cycle end
more like Worst Of amirite UP TOP
YOURE RIGHT AND ITS VERY CUTE
I'm gonna need videographic proo-
mmmmaybe not nevermind
Dan: People should behave like [X]!
Vinny: Yeah, but remember that story where [Dan was a tremendous asshole in direct violation of X].
Dan: Oh yeah.
Animals fucking up is always hilarious (as long as they aren't actually hurt).
She also has a possum
I don't want to be a possum
I am a human my name is Zack hello
Ah yes, that classic hit by The Killers.
We have enough people to start a furry podcast
Why are you inviting people onto your furry podcast
Shouldn't that be a Furz Only Zone
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
yes
Anyone is welcome to record their own episode of Whats Your Furstyle
Those are two mutually exclusive situations you cannot intelligibly respond to my question with an unqualified affirmative please try again
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
okay
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
I learned about this arm things in a book I read as a teenager about learning how to become a werewolf
I think we just one two punched the most "us" posts there.
I would like to be a goat
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
I don't think either had quite enough of our trademark pretension, but yeah, it's pretty good.
I still own that book, and it is one of the funniest things to reread now. I got rid of most of the other stuff from my gothic neo-druidism phase, but that one is a treasure.
I have to wonder what someone who follows Jeff Minter on Twitter, and doesn't know what's going on, thinks is going on.