I have watched and I have enjoyed watching countless jumping, climbing, and frag videos from a variety of games, but I am certain i would not enjoy playing most of them, which means I won't buy them.
History is obviously repeating itself - I know this isn't the first time and certainly not the last time a devoted fan base will howl in rage at the injustices forced upon them. It just sucks to be the forcee. :P
It really doesn't suck to be the forcee unless you are so stuck up that you can't seem to realize that most of the people who will be playing don't agree with you. If you don't realize this, you feel injustices are being forced upon you, which is an utterly selfish feeling.
Also, this is not being forced upon you. You are free to play TFC, quit TFC, destroy your copy of TFC, buy TF2, not buy TF2, buy and then quit TF2... It is only in your mind that you are being oppressed.
First of all, by "zomg, rage at the injustices" I was obviously drastically over-exaggerating my beliefs for a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor by referencing a previous comment, thus the " :P " smiley.
Secondly, my point, which I thought I had stated fairly directly, was that players who like TFC simply don't have that many other commercial-quality options out there on the market. I never would have thought I'd still be playing TFC eight years later, but I haven't come across a game that comes closer to my own interests as to what makes a fun shooter. Obviously lots of people have different concepts of what makes up their ideal game - all I'm saying is that if GRAW2 had completely re-invented itself and turned off the whole tactical-shooter crowd, they could easily follow your advice and not buy it and spend their money on one of several other high-quality similar games. This drastic change of TF2 away from TFC-style gameplay, however, is a far bigger loss to fans of this genre who don't have the same luxury.
Thirdly, I'm a little confused as to why you can discuss your own beliefs such as how you wouldn't be interested in buying TFC based upon the video I linked, yet you criticize me for talking about mine as being utterly selfish.
So uh, are there still nerds here who are angry enough about a game that they're arguing about it over the internet? Because if they are, I'd have figured they'd have run out of shit to babble about a long time ago.
Good riddance with the grenades, I say. It really screwed up the rock-paper-scissor thing when the nade spam comes into play. But oh, the medic. No one want to play support damn it. I like infecting half the red team in their spawn.
So uh, are there still nerds here who are angry enough about a game that they're arguing about it over the internet? Because if they are, I'd have figured they'd have run out of shit to babble about a long time ago.
Honestly the anti-grenade, anti-'hardcore' people tend to come across as the angriest in this thread. A few pages ago we were having a somewhat interesting, non-namecalling discussion about the appeal of TFC and other niche games, but some people keep dragging the thread backwards by criticizing an argument that isn't even happening.
So uh, are there still nerds here who are angry enough about a game that they're arguing about it over the internet? Because if they are, I'd have figured they'd have run out of shit to babble about a long time ago.
Honestly the anti-grenade, anti-'hardcore' people tend to come across as the angriest in this thread. A few pages ago we were having a somewhat interesting, non-namecalling discussion about the appeal of TFC and other niche games, but some people keep dragging the thread backwards by criticizing an argument that isn't even happening.
Honestly the sky is neon green and we are all just the dreams of elephant farts.
Why does the "it's beneficial for Valve themselves to create a generic widely accessible game" argument even hold any weight here. I don't understand why it has even come up. It may be true, but it's certainly not something we should be happy about.
Why should any of us happy about games being developed to appeal to the largest broad group of gamers? I can't help drawing a parallel here between this and the music industry with its terrible pop music that it pumps out month after month, year after year. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but its a comparison. Many people LIKE pop music, and that's fine, but there's enough of it to go around, without a specific band you really really love and listened to for years suddenly selling out and releasing terrible generic pop music. Would you really tell a long time Radiohead fan that he is being silly when he complains that Radiohead's next album is terrible generic pop?
Anyway, I can live with grenades being removed, and remain hopeful about this game. But as a "hardcore" TF fan I really, really, badly hope that there is going to be some type of elite movement/combat skills that come out of this game. Us "hardcore" have become dismayed because the removal of grenades makes us think TF2 is leaning towards removing all of these "elite" skills. But if they do truly replace grenade combat/movement skills with another equally "elite" skill, then I (and I suspect many of the hardcore) will be a very happy campers (excuse the pun).
We don't have to many hardcore movement/combat based games that cater to our group, so hopefully you will forgive us if we get upset when we hear about things which seem like they're making the situation that much worse.
Why does the "it's beneficial for Valve themselves to create a generic widely accessible game" argument even hold any weight here. I don't understand why it has even come up. It may be true, but it's certainly not something we should be happy about.
Why should any of us happy about games being developed to appeal to the largest broad group of gamers? I can't help drawing a parallel here between this and the music industry with its terrible pop music that it pumps out month after month, year after year. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but its a comparison. Many people LIKE pop music, and that's fine, but there's enough of it to go around, without a specific band you really really love and listened to for years suddenly selling out and releasing terrible generic pop music. Would you really tell a long time Radiohead fan that he is being silly when he complains that Radiohead's next album is terrible generic pop?
Anyway, I can live with grenades being removed, and remain hopeful about this game. But as a "hardcore" TF fan I really, really, badly hope that there is going to be some type of elite movement/combat skills that come out of this game. Us "hardcore" have become dismayed because the removal of grenades makes us think TF2 is leaning towards removing all of these "elite" skills. But if they do truly replace grenade combat/movement skills with another equally "elite" skill, then I (and I suspect many of the hardcore) will be a very happy campers (excuse the pun).
We don't have to many hardcore movement/combat based games that cater to our group, so hopefully you will forgive us if we get upset when we hear about things which seem like they're making the situation that much worse.
No one is saying you should be happy about these changes. What is being said is you a an idiot for bitching about it and accusing Valve of being ignorant or stupid. If you really must bitch at least do it at Valve, that way it might (just might) end up being constructive.
NOR on
Swehehehehehahahahahahahahahawhawhawhaw
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
Yes, because aspects like aiming and tactics were also taken out, they just didn't tell us.
No one is saying you should be happy about these changes. What is being said is you a an idiot for bitching about it and accusing Valve of being ignorant or stupid. If you really must bitch at least do it at Valve, that way it might (just might) end up being constructive.
I think if you actually start reading our posts you'll see that we're mostly just discussing TFC with people who say the original is broken or dumb, and responding to posts like yours. This thread isn't 21 pages of us bitching about TF2 like you seem to think it is.
Yes, because aspects like aiming and tactics were also taken out, they just didn't tell us.
Lots of games have aiming and tactics. Very few games have the other stuff we like.
I can't believe this argument reached 22 pages. It's ridiculous.
Hey, guys, they haven't taken the grenades out of TFC!
They've taken the grenades out of TF2!
Grenades sure were an integral part of TFC's gameplay. That's awesome! TFC sure was fun, huh? They're making TF2 now. It is a game none of you have played, which draws heavy inspiration from a game you have! There are still Teams, and almost certainly at least one Fortress, but the classes do different things now. Had Valve not happened to mention in an interview that they had removed grenades, I doubt any of you would care a whole bunch upon actually playing the game when it's released, because it's not TFC, it is a different game, just similar, and a lot of you seem to be missing that.
LaCabra on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
No one is saying you should be happy about these changes. What is being said is you a an idiot for bitching about it and accusing Valve of being ignorant or stupid. If you really must bitch at least do it at Valve, that way it might (just might) end up being constructive.
I think if you actually start reading our posts you'll see that we're mostly just discussing TFC with people who say the original is broken or dumb, and responding to posts like yours. This thread isn't 21 pages of us bitching about TF2 like you seem to think it is.
Yes, because aspects like aiming and tactics were also taken out, they just didn't tell us.
Lots of games have aiming and tactics. Very few games have the other stuff we like.
You're assuming that Valve didn't put in any sort of complex system. Now, I think I trust Valve to make a good shooter, with lots of strategy and tactics involved. Basically, we are starting our assumptions from different places.
No one is saying you should be happy about these changes. What is being said is you a an idiot for bitching about it and accusing Valve of being ignorant or stupid. If you really must bitch at least do it at Valve, that way it might (just might) end up being constructive.
I think if you actually start reading our posts you'll see that we're mostly just discussing TFC with people who say the original is broken or dumb, and responding to posts like yours. This thread isn't 21 pages of us bitching about TF2 like you seem to think it is.
I have read the thread. While it's not 21 pages of bitching about TF2 it's pretty fucking close. I'll remind you that just because you are largely one of the well though out ones posting about this does not mean they all are.
I can't believe this argument reached 22 pages. It's ridiculous.
Hey, guys, they haven't taken the grenades out of TFC!
They've taken the grenades out of TF2!
Grenades sure were an integral part of TFC's gameplay. That's awesome! TFC sure was fun, huh? They're making TF2 now. It is a game none of you have played, which draws heavy inspiration from a game you have! There are still Teams, and almost certainly at least one Fortress, but the classes do different things now. Had Valve not happened to mention in an interview that they had removed grenades, I doubt any of you would care a whole bunch upon actually playing the game when it's released, because it's not TFC, it is a different game, just similar, and a lot of you seem to be missing that.
Yes 22 pages is ridiculous I agree. But we are getting slammed from all angles when our complaint is actually a fair one. The angles are:
a) Extreme movement/combat in TFC sucked, I'm glad they removed it in TF2, you're dumb! b) This is a NEW game, you guys shouldn't be complaining its not like the old game you love because it's a new game. You're dumb! c) Why would Valve make a game that wasn't generic and appeals to the biggest market possible. Valve would never do this, they wouldn't be maximising their money. You're not being realistic. You're dumb!
I think that just about covers it. So we're fielding attacks from all different angles, then when we field one from one angle, someone from one of the other angles comes out and says "no, you idiot, we're not saying that", then proceeds to re-hash the same argument.
You just happen to fit into category b).
What it comes down to is YES!, hardcore gamers are a smaller demographic than the overall gaming demographic. However, we still want SOME games to cater to our tastes. These tastes aren't as "narrow" as you guys make them out to be. We just want games with a lot of technical skill, aiming, movement. Games that take practise, and games which by definition are not instantly accessible. (On a side note: I think tutorials for these skills would vastly improve the games accessibility in this area).
As opposed to the pointles bitching about this thread's existence that's been going on since its inception!
I'll remind you that just because you are largely one of the well though out ones posting about this does not mean they all are.
I'll remind you that you said "You are an idiot" to Klaymen, largely one of the well thought-out ones posting about this.
Recemmending that you use your voice (or fingers in this case) in a constructive manner rather then this aimless bitch fest (which funnily enough is no longer about TF2 at all) is hardly pointless.
You do not bitch about change when you have the option of attempting to affect the change you are bitching about.
And any and all claims that the "hardcore" have in anyway a positive effect are pure fantasy, and I am saying this as one of these very Hardcore (Tho of a markedly different genre of games). Catering to the hardcore leads to the long, slow death of things.
But lets be serious, even without the ability to make new things the same as the old you still have options; play the old thing that you so year to see replicated with the same group of slowly dwindaling players, or fucking suck it up and adapt to the new thing.
And I've never and will never claim you should be happy to see the things you love change (er well... not replicated).
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Does the existence of wavedashing in super smash brothers melee render that game generic?
NOR on
Swehehehehehahahahahahahahahawhawhawhaw
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
This is basically my position. TF was made special by more than just grenades.
You guys are all fitting into category a) now, so let's talk about THAT.
I don't know how much TF you guys played, if any. You may have played some. But either way, you sure as hell didn't play the TF I played for four years straight.
Elite movement and combat was the CORE of what made TF worthy such a massive time investment for the "hardcore".
Grenades was a core aspect of this, due to carefully engineered grenjumps, as well as perfecting timing and prediction in using grenades in combat.
Removing grenades removes a large part of this. We DO still have rocketjumps, and I'm thankful for that. We probably do NOT have bunnyhopping, however that is speculation. If we do have it, I'll be very happy. If we don't, it will be another thing I'm not happy about.
As I said, if the things removed are replaced with equally "elite" and skilled aspects, I and most of us will be happy.
You guys are all fitting into category a) now, so let's talk about THAT.
I don't know how much TF you guys played, if any. You may have played some. But either way, you sure as hell didn't play the TF I played for four years straight.
Elite movement and combat was the CORE of what made TF worthy such a massive time investment for the "hardcore".
Grenades was a core aspect of this, due to carefully engineered grenjumps, as well as perfecting timing and prediction in using grenades in combat.
Removing grenades removes a large part of this. We DO still have rocketjumps, and I'm thankful for that. We probably do NOT have bunnyhopping, however that is speculation. If we do have it, I'll be very happy. If we don't, it will be another thing I'm not happy about.
As I said, if the things removed are replaced with equally "elite" and skilled aspects, I and most of us will be happy.
E) you are just really fucking dumb all around.
NOR on
Swehehehehehahahahahahahahahawhawhawhaw
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
You guys are all fitting into category a) now, so let's talk about THAT.
I don't know how much TF you guys played, if any. You may have played some. But either way, you sure as hell didn't play the TF I played for four years straight.
Elite movement and combat was the CORE of what made TF worthy such a massive time investment for the "hardcore".
Grenades was a core aspect of this, due to carefully engineered grenjumps, as well as perfecting timing and prediction in using grenades in combat.
Removing grenades removes a large part of this. We DO still have rocketjumps, and I'm thankful for that. We probably do NOT have bunnyhopping, however that is speculation. If we do have it, I'll be very happy. If we don't, it will be another thing I'm not happy about.
As I said, if the things removed are replaced with equally "elite" and skilled aspects, I and most of us will be happy.
I will be the first one to admit that I was not "hardcore", "elite", or even "any good at the damn game". However, I still had fun with it. I managed to become addicted to it without all the concjumping and so on. As a Sniper.
You're assuming that absolutely nothing will be added to satisfy you're want to move fast and dodge and so on. I say, why not simply be a scout or something, so you have your double-jump?
There will be new elite and hardcore strategies and tactics. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Is it really a problem that it's programed in and intended by the developers, rather than something unintended or simply carried over for simplicity's sake as a port?
Why not simply learn the new strats and tactics, rather then complain about losing the old ones?
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Conc jumping was by far the dominant source of TFC's three-dimensional gameplay, and grenades were behind many of the games more interesting emergent properties and skillsets. Without grenades, concs especially, many of the game's most obvious and visually unique characteristics that set it apart from other shooters are now completely gone. Sure, it's still a somewhat complex game regardless, but I don't see how you can argue that it isn't suddenly a heck of a lot more generic with most of the gameplay now taking place with everyone glued to the floor.
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Does the existence of wavedashing in super smash brothers melee render that game generic?
What?
Zombiemambo on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Conc jumping was by far the dominant source of TFC's three-dimensional gameplay, and grenades were behind many of the games more interesting emergent properties and skillsets. Without grenades, concs especially, many of the game's most obvious and visually unique characteristics that set it apart from other shooters are now completely gone. Sure, it's still a somewhat complex game regardless, but I don't see how you can argue that it isn't suddenly a heck of a lot more generic with most of the gameplay now taking place with everyone glued to the floor.
I'm simply not understanding where you get the knowledge that everyone's glued to the floor. (see Scout's double jump, for example) If you want to be fast and jumpy, be a scout!
Fencingsax on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Does the existence of wavedashing in super smash brothers melee render that game generic?
What?
He's trying to make the crappy analogy of "TF being generic if it doesn't have grenades = TF is generic even with grenades" to "SSBM generic if it has wave dashing".
I love the outlook of, "If TF doesn't have grenades it's just a generic shooter." Must've been pretty generic to begin with if taking out grenades caused it to be boring.
Does the existence of wavedashing in super smash brothers melee render that game generic?
What?
He's trying to make the crappy analogy of "TF being generic if it doesn't have grenades = TF is generic even with grenades" to "SSBM generic if it has wave dashing".
Nah. Elite tech is not and never will be what makes the game.
You're assuming that absolutely nothing will be added to satisfy you're want to move fast and dodge and so on. I say, why not simply be a scout or something, so you have your double-jump?
There will be new elite and hardcore strategies and tactics. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Is it really a problem that it's programed in and intended by the developers, rather than something unintended or simply carried over for simplicity's sake as a port?
Why not simply learn the new strats and tactics, rather then complain about losing the old ones?
This is speculation. We don't know how the game will turn out. It could be as good as you say, it could be as bad as we fear. Our complaint is purely that removing grenades illustrates to us that the game is moving away from this direction. We REALLY hope you are right, but we aren't banking on it, it doesn't seem likely at all, based on the information we've been given thus far.
And we've touched on the reasons why. Adaption for consoles = simplifying controls. If you want to debate that, let's go ahead and do it. We've done it already, but it got lost in the mess. There is also the "it's beneficial for valve to create a generic game", which it true, and another reason we're scared. I guess the difference between you and us is that you're more unrealistically optimistic than we are, and care less about losing the stuff which we held a shitload more dearly than you did.
We're trying to have some type of rational discourse on the subject. You are simply trolling. You didn't even put forward an opinion one way or the other.
Klaymen on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
You're assuming that absolutely nothing will be added to satisfy you're want to move fast and dodge and so on. I say, why not simply be a scout or something, so you have your double-jump?
There will be new elite and hardcore strategies and tactics. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Is it really a problem that it's programed in and intended by the developers, rather than something unintended or simply carried over for simplicity's sake as a port?
Why not simply learn the new strats and tactics, rather then complain about losing the old ones?
This is speculation. We don't know how the game will turn out. It could be as good as you say, it could be as bad as we fear. Our complaint is purely that removing grenades illustrates to us that the game is moving away from this direction. We REALLY hope you are right, but we aren't banking on it, it doesn't seem likely at all, based on the information we've been given thus far.
I guess I trust Valve to make a shooter I enjoy. You're more cynical.
I'm simply not understanding where you get the knowledge that everyone's glued to the floor. (see Scout's double jump, for example) If you want to be fast and jumpy, be a scout!
Because a second small little hop a la UT2k4 for one class won't allow a fraction of the possibilities provided by concs or, in a pinch, frag grenades. Also the explosions from grenades were a big part of what knocked players up into the air during combat. If you watched that video I linked, I don't see how you can argue that a little extra hop by the scout will even begin to provide remotely the same amount of vertical gameplay that exists in TFC.
I guess I trust Valve to make a shooter I enjoy. You're more cynical.
Then I think we're good. You hopefully by now understand where we're coming from, and what we want from games, and why we're upset. You're happy because you personally don't look for that stuff in games. That's fine too, infact kudos to you, you're probably going to get what you want.
Why does the "it's beneficial for Valve themselves to create a generic widely accessible game" argument even hold any weight here. I don't understand why it has even come up. It may be true, but it's certainly not something we should be happy about.
We should be happy about because it brings more players. And because it's not impossible to cater to both the newbies and the pros.
You just need to balance the game so you get a healthy skill curve... something like this:
The point is that once you've learned the basics and have played a while on the public servers you may face some pro players, but although he is better than you it's not impossible to beat him. A healthy amount of luck and you'll be taking him down more than once during the match and having fun.
But even that small difference balances out over time. Especially if it's a whole team of intermediate players versus a team of pro players.
I'm simply not understanding where you get the knowledge that everyone's glued to the floor. (see Scout's double jump, for example) If you want to be fast and jumpy, be a scout!
Because a second small little hop a la UT2k4 for one class won't allow a fraction of the possibilities provided by concs or, in a pinch, frag grenades. Also the explosions from grenades were a big part of what knocked players up into the air during combat. If you watched that video I linked, I don't see how you can argue that a little extra hop by the scout will even begin to provide remotely the same amount of vertical gameplay that exists in TFC.
It's not the same as UT2k4 if the previews are to be believed. But even so, maybe you could do something like... up the scout's health, launch him with a pipebomb, have him do a double jump and then give him a third boost with a rocket...
It's not the same as UT2k4 if the previews are to be believed. But even so, maybe you could do something like... up the scout's health, launch him with a pipebomb, have him do a double jump and then give him a third boost with a rocket...
Or the entire offense can form a pyramid formation on the 2fort bridge, and the player on top can simply jump to the battlements. Brilliant.
This is speculation. We don't know how the game will turn out. It could be as good as you say, it could be as bad as we fear. Our complaint is purely that removing grenades illustrates to us that the game is moving away from this direction. We REALLY hope you are right, but we aren't banking on it, it doesn't seem likely at all, based on the information we've been given thus far.
I guess I trust Valve to make a shooter I enjoy. You're more cynical.
It's not that. It's that your Speculation License has expired, Fency.
Posts
First of all, by "zomg, rage at the injustices" I was obviously drastically over-exaggerating my beliefs for a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor by referencing a previous comment, thus the " :P " smiley.
Secondly, my point, which I thought I had stated fairly directly, was that players who like TFC simply don't have that many other commercial-quality options out there on the market. I never would have thought I'd still be playing TFC eight years later, but I haven't come across a game that comes closer to my own interests as to what makes a fun shooter. Obviously lots of people have different concepts of what makes up their ideal game - all I'm saying is that if GRAW2 had completely re-invented itself and turned off the whole tactical-shooter crowd, they could easily follow your advice and not buy it and spend their money on one of several other high-quality similar games. This drastic change of TF2 away from TFC-style gameplay, however, is a far bigger loss to fans of this genre who don't have the same luxury.
Thirdly, I'm a little confused as to why you can discuss your own beliefs such as how you wouldn't be interested in buying TFC based upon the video I linked, yet you criticize me for talking about mine as being utterly selfish.
Honestly the sky is neon green and we are all just the dreams of elephant farts.
Why should any of us happy about games being developed to appeal to the largest broad group of gamers? I can't help drawing a parallel here between this and the music industry with its terrible pop music that it pumps out month after month, year after year. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but its a comparison. Many people LIKE pop music, and that's fine, but there's enough of it to go around, without a specific band you really really love and listened to for years suddenly selling out and releasing terrible generic pop music. Would you really tell a long time Radiohead fan that he is being silly when he complains that Radiohead's next album is terrible generic pop?
Anyway, I can live with grenades being removed, and remain hopeful about this game. But as a "hardcore" TF fan I really, really, badly hope that there is going to be some type of elite movement/combat skills that come out of this game. Us "hardcore" have become dismayed because the removal of grenades makes us think TF2 is leaning towards removing all of these "elite" skills. But if they do truly replace grenade combat/movement skills with another equally "elite" skill, then I (and I suspect many of the hardcore) will be a very happy campers (excuse the pun).
We don't have to many hardcore movement/combat based games that cater to our group, so hopefully you will forgive us if we get upset when we hear about things which seem like they're making the situation that much worse.
No one is saying you should be happy about these changes. What is being said is you a an idiot for bitching about it and accusing Valve of being ignorant or stupid. If you really must bitch at least do it at Valve, that way it might (just might) end up being constructive.
You're doing it again.
Steam id: skoot LoL id: skoot
Lots of games have aiming and tactics. Very few games have the other stuff we like.
Hey, guys, they haven't taken the grenades out of TFC!
They've taken the grenades out of TF2!
Grenades sure were an integral part of TFC's gameplay. That's awesome! TFC sure was fun, huh? They're making TF2 now. It is a game none of you have played, which draws heavy inspiration from a game you have! There are still Teams, and almost certainly at least one Fortress, but the classes do different things now. Had Valve not happened to mention in an interview that they had removed grenades, I doubt any of you would care a whole bunch upon actually playing the game when it's released, because it's not TFC, it is a different game, just similar, and a lot of you seem to be missing that.
You're assuming that Valve didn't put in any sort of complex system. Now, I think I trust Valve to make a good shooter, with lots of strategy and tactics involved. Basically, we are starting our assumptions from different places.
I have read the thread. While it's not 21 pages of bitching about TF2 it's pretty fucking close. I'll remind you that just because you are largely one of the well though out ones posting about this does not mean they all are.
Yes 22 pages is ridiculous I agree. But we are getting slammed from all angles when our complaint is actually a fair one. The angles are:
a) Extreme movement/combat in TFC sucked, I'm glad they removed it in TF2, you're dumb!
b) This is a NEW game, you guys shouldn't be complaining its not like the old game you love because it's a new game. You're dumb!
c) Why would Valve make a game that wasn't generic and appeals to the biggest market possible. Valve would never do this, they wouldn't be maximising their money. You're not being realistic. You're dumb!
I think that just about covers it. So we're fielding attacks from all different angles, then when we field one from one angle, someone from one of the other angles comes out and says "no, you idiot, we're not saying that", then proceeds to re-hash the same argument.
You just happen to fit into category b).
What it comes down to is YES!, hardcore gamers are a smaller demographic than the overall gaming demographic. However, we still want SOME games to cater to our tastes. These tastes aren't as "narrow" as you guys make them out to be. We just want games with a lot of technical skill, aiming, movement. Games that take practise, and games which by definition are not instantly accessible. (On a side note: I think tutorials for these skills would vastly improve the games accessibility in this area).
So we've upgraded from pointless bitching about TF2 to pointless bitching about not being take seriously for bitching pointlessly about TF2.
Great.
I'll remind you that you said "You are an idiot" to Klaymen, largely one of the well thought-out ones posting about this.
I'm trying to bring La Cabra up to speed and simultaneously make an attempt to organise this clusterfuck of a discussion thread.
Also, I guess I forgot category d)
d) I don't have an opinion, and I won't post one. I will bash on the minority though! They're idiots.
But that's just my opinion, which I am saying partly because I can't be wrong that way and mostly because I don't want to really upset people.
Recemmending that you use your voice (or fingers in this case) in a constructive manner rather then this aimless bitch fest (which funnily enough is no longer about TF2 at all) is hardly pointless.
You do not bitch about change when you have the option of attempting to affect the change you are bitching about.
And any and all claims that the "hardcore" have in anyway a positive effect are pure fantasy, and I am saying this as one of these very Hardcore (Tho of a markedly different genre of games). Catering to the hardcore leads to the long, slow death of things.
But lets be serious, even without the ability to make new things the same as the old you still have options; play the old thing that you so year to see replicated with the same group of slowly dwindaling players, or fucking suck it up and adapt to the new thing.
And I've never and will never claim you should be happy to see the things you love change (er well... not replicated).
It was both a nice summary as well as being what I accused it of being.
Can it not be both?
Does the existence of wavedashing in super smash brothers melee render that game generic?
This is basically my position. TF was made special by more than just grenades.
I don't know how much TF you guys played, if any. You may have played some. But either way, you sure as hell didn't play the TF I played for four years straight.
Elite movement and combat was the CORE of what made TF worthy such a massive time investment for the "hardcore".
Grenades was a core aspect of this, due to carefully engineered grenjumps, as well as perfecting timing and prediction in using grenades in combat.
Removing grenades removes a large part of this. We DO still have rocketjumps, and I'm thankful for that. We probably do NOT have bunnyhopping, however that is speculation. If we do have it, I'll be very happy. If we don't, it will be another thing I'm not happy about.
As I said, if the things removed are replaced with equally "elite" and skilled aspects, I and most of us will be happy.
E) you are just really fucking dumb all around.
I will be the first one to admit that I was not "hardcore", "elite", or even "any good at the damn game". However, I still had fun with it. I managed to become addicted to it without all the concjumping and so on. As a Sniper.
You're assuming that absolutely nothing will be added to satisfy you're want to move fast and dodge and so on. I say, why not simply be a scout or something, so you have your double-jump?
There will be new elite and hardcore strategies and tactics. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Is it really a problem that it's programed in and intended by the developers, rather than something unintended or simply carried over for simplicity's sake as a port?
Why not simply learn the new strats and tactics, rather then complain about losing the old ones?
Conc jumping was by far the dominant source of TFC's three-dimensional gameplay, and grenades were behind many of the games more interesting emergent properties and skillsets. Without grenades, concs especially, many of the game's most obvious and visually unique characteristics that set it apart from other shooters are now completely gone. Sure, it's still a somewhat complex game regardless, but I don't see how you can argue that it isn't suddenly a heck of a lot more generic with most of the gameplay now taking place with everyone glued to the floor.
What?
I'm simply not understanding where you get the knowledge that everyone's glued to the floor. (see Scout's double jump, for example) If you want to be fast and jumpy, be a scout!
He's trying to make the crappy analogy of "TF being generic if it doesn't have grenades = TF is generic even with grenades" to "SSBM generic if it has wave dashing".
Nah. Elite tech is not and never will be what makes the game.
I took his post as an insult to TFC actually.
This is speculation. We don't know how the game will turn out. It could be as good as you say, it could be as bad as we fear. Our complaint is purely that removing grenades illustrates to us that the game is moving away from this direction. We REALLY hope you are right, but we aren't banking on it, it doesn't seem likely at all, based on the information we've been given thus far.
And we've touched on the reasons why. Adaption for consoles = simplifying controls. If you want to debate that, let's go ahead and do it. We've done it already, but it got lost in the mess. There is also the "it's beneficial for valve to create a generic game", which it true, and another reason we're scared. I guess the difference between you and us is that you're more unrealistically optimistic than we are, and care less about losing the stuff which we held a shitload more dearly than you did.
We're trying to have some type of rational discourse on the subject. You are simply trolling. You didn't even put forward an opinion one way or the other.
I guess I trust Valve to make a shooter I enjoy. You're more cynical.
Then I think we're good. You hopefully by now understand where we're coming from, and what we want from games, and why we're upset. You're happy because you personally don't look for that stuff in games. That's fine too, infact kudos to you, you're probably going to get what you want.
You just need to balance the game so you get a healthy skill curve... something like this:
The point is that once you've learned the basics and have played a while on the public servers you may face some pro players, but although he is better than you it's not impossible to beat him. A healthy amount of luck and you'll be taking him down more than once during the match and having fun.
But even that small difference balances out over time. Especially if it's a whole team of intermediate players versus a team of pro players.
It's not the same as UT2k4 if the previews are to be believed. But even so, maybe you could do something like... up the scout's health, launch him with a pipebomb, have him do a double jump and then give him a third boost with a rocket...
Now you're coming up with new stuff for a change.
It's not that. It's that your Speculation License has expired, Fency.