Climbing on teammates was fun in ThieveryUT. Someone should send them an email about that idea.
Now you're coming up with new stuff for a change.
Actually I was being a little flippant. I just don't think anything that complicated is really feasible in a fast paced game, especially not in a clanning environment with friendly fire on. Oddly enough though, there are a whole range of TFC maps based on this principle called escape maps - everyone has to work together in a completely co-op setting to overcome obstacles and boobytraps, etc. Kind of a fun change of pace from the normal kill, kill, kill.
We're trying to have some type of rational discourse on the subject. You are simply trolling. You didn't even put forward an opinion one way or the other.
F) Insults and generalization are not rational discourse, furthermore rational discourse cannot take place if their is no possibility for an legitimate argument. Being as both sides are actually in agreement over one fact (Man, TF2 is not going to be anything like TFC) and can never come to an agreement over another fact (Is this a good or bad thing? hint: it's both) I really can't see the point.
However I'll go out of my way here to fully explain my standing on the original argument. I'm a member of this "hardcore" group, although not this genre or game (I know, I know, I'm not one of the hardcore for this game so my opinion is all ready invalid). I am deeply saddened when something I loved about an older game is not carried over to newer iterations; I'm also full of fear over just this thing happening. However I'm not so foolish to believe that these things necessarily made the game better (although they did make it better for me). I'm also not so stupid as to believe that my place as one of this games largest fans entitles me to anything at all. I also need to note that I love the experience of discovering something new and mastering said new thing.
This coming from a point of view from someone who has never played any Team Fortress game but has had experience with many many other PC FPS's. With all the character classes in the game currently it seems that taking the grenades out truly defines each class better and gets to the point where a balanced team is needed to win most games. I
nstead of a fast class like scout who has the same grenades as a heavier class wins against the heavier class in most situations because they both have nades and the faster class can react better in that situation.
We actually had some good discussion going for half a page!
Instead of a fast class like scout who has the same grenades as a heavier class wins against the heavier class in most situations because they both have nades and the faster class can react better in that situation.
Just FYI, this was never the case. First of all, scouts didn't have frag grenades, but even still, a heavy weapons guy or soldier wins over an evenly-skilled scout, medic, pyro, spy or engineer every time. Only when there is a large skill disparity or the stronger guy is weakened/distracted/in a bad location do they lose.
This coming from a point of view from someone who has never played any Team Fortress game but has had experience with many many other PC FPS's. With all the character classes in the game currently it seems that taking the grenades out truly defines each class better and gets to the point where a balanced team is needed to win most games. I
nstead of a fast class like scout who has the same grenades as a heavier class wins against the heavier class in most situations because they both have nades and the faster class can react better in that situation.
That wasn't really the case at all in TFC. Well first off scouts didn't even have damaging grenades, but we'll go along with your point and examine the medic versus the soldier instead. The medic is quite a bit faster and more mobile than the soldier, but what you aren't taking into account is the soldier has far more survivability with literally twice as much armor and a freakin' rocket launcher. The role of the grenade merely allowed the weaker class to have a shot at killing the heavier class either through a lucky break or over attrition from a few offensive runs. Alternatively, the medic could use a concussion grenade to amplify his speed advantage and try to bypass the defender. But now, neither of these dynamic aspects of the game are possible.
Alternatively, the medic could use a concussion grenade to amplify his speed advantage and try to bypass the defender. But now, neither of these dynamic aspects of the game are possible.
You'll have to excuse my stupidness since I haven't been reading the thread, but aren't you essentially assuming there that the classes in TF2 are going to be the same, minus the grenade, as the original TF? The wording seems that way. They do seem to be changing quite a large amount, so I'm sure it'll be balanced enough that the "weaker" classes have some other advantages over the heaver classes. It isn't, after all, the same game.
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Alternatively, the medic could use a concussion grenade to amplify his speed advantage and try to bypass the defender. But now, neither of these dynamic aspects of the game are possible.
You'll have to excuse my stupidness since I haven't been reading the thread, but aren't you essentially assuming there that the classes in TF2 are going to be the same, minus the grenade, as the original TF? The wording seems that way. They do seem to be changing quite a large amount, so I'm sure it'll be balanced enough that the "weaker" classes have some other advantages over the heaver classes. It isn't, after all, the same game.
There was a pretty comprehensive breakdown of the changes from a hands-on preview. There are definitely some differences, but the only earth-shattering class change that stood out to me was the ranged healing of the medic and the reduction of its offensive abilities. Obviously we don't really know how thorough that review was or if the game has changed since the review, let alone how some of the features will work such as the potentially game-breaking ability of giving temporary god mode to your teammates. But, like the analogy I made earlier, even if we've never directly played it, we all have enough experience with football to kind of mentally imagine how the game would playout if they removed all passing and field goals.
But, like the analogy I made earlier, even if we've never directly played it, we all have enough experience with football to kind of mentally imagine how the game would playout if they removed all passing and field goals.
and just like earlier, the analogy still doesn't apply. i mean, you can keep using it if you really like it that much, but it's not convincing anybody.
But, like the analogy I made earlier, even if we've never directly played it, we all have enough experience with football to kind of mentally imagine how the game would playout if they removed all passing and field goals.
and just like earlier, the analogy still doesn't apply. i mean, you can keep using it if you really like it that much, but it's not convincing anybody.
Er, I don't see why it isn't applicable, nor did you give any indication earlier that you felt it was invalid. I don't really buy the argument that someone with extensive experience with a certain game is completely incapable of roughly predicting how a new game derived from the first will play given a fairly detailed list of differences between the two. I'm not exactly trying to be Nostradamus here, I mean saying stuff like the removal of concs will result in far less vertically-oriented gameplay seems like a fairly low-risk statement to me.
But, like the analogy I made earlier, even if we've never directly played it, we all have enough experience with football to kind of mentally imagine how the game would playout if they removed all passing and field goals.
and just like earlier, the analogy still doesn't apply. i mean, you can keep using it if you really like it that much, but it's not convincing anybody.
Er, I don't see why it isn't applicable, nor did you give any indication earlier that you felt it was invalid. I don't really buy the argument that someone with extensive experience with a certain game is completely incapable of roughly predicting how a new game derived from the first will play given a fairly detailed list of differences between the two. I'm not exactly trying to be Nostradamus here, I mean saying stuff like the removal of concs will result in far less vertically-oriented gameplay seems like a fairly low-risk statement to me.
i didnt say anything about it earlier because i didnt think it applied, so i ignored it. i didnt say anything about how concs would affect anything. i just said your analogy wasn't any good. and it isn't.
if you want a hint why, ask yourself what percentage of all NFL teams know how to pass and kick field goals and rely on them to win games versus what percentage of all TFC players knew how to conc-jump and bunnyhop and relied on them to win games.
these changes will change the game drastically for you im sure, but not for the player base as a whole. thus, it wouldn't have nearly the effect you'd have people believe by using that analogy.
there, now that ive explained why it doesnt work, i can go back to ignoring it if you decide to use it again.
i didnt say anything about it earlier because i didnt think it applied, so i ignored it. i didnt say anything about how concs would affect anything. i just said your analogy wasn't any good. and it isn't.
if you want a hint why, ask yourself what percentage of all NFL teams know how to pass and kick field goals and rely on them to win games versus what percentage of all TFC players knew how to conc-jump and bunnyhop and relied on them to win games.
these changes will change the game drastically for you im sure, but not for the player base as a whole. thus, it wouldn't have nearly the effect you'd have people believe by using that analogy.
there, now that ive explained why it doesnt work, i can go back to ignoring it if you decide to use it again.
I don't really understand - even the rawest of noobs would simply ask how people are flying around and then experiment with limited but immediate success. While they certainly had a very long road ahead of them before they could do some of the more advanced stuff, they could easily learn how to jump from the 2fort water to the battlements within a few minutes. Just because you seemingly went out of your way to avoid learning how to conc jump doesn't mean you represent the player base any better than I do.
Additionally, you are making a critical mistake - you are comparing ALL of the TFC players against just the NFL teams and going "hey look, they pass and do field goals way more often than the average TFC player tries to conc jump, therefore your analogy is crap!" While I don't really see why the fine details of the percentages has to match up for the overall analogy to work... fine, whatever, you're actually strengthening my analogy with that logic. The problem with your statement is that the NFL teams only represent the absolute highest tiers of "hardcore" football players. Of course there will be a discrepancy in "percentage of technique usage" or whatever you want to call it. However, if you compare the usage percentages of the NFL teams only against the upper tier TFC clans, and the average pubber to the local high school football team, and the raw newbie to a little kid in the peewee football leagues, then I think you'll find a surprisingly relevant correlation.
i haven't made any such mistake. passing is fundamental to even a junior high football team, and kicking is only marginalized because no amount of practice can overcome their physical immaturity. once you hit high school play (average pubber, as you say), passing and kicking are as important as anything. My point is, passing and field goals are fundamental to every level of the sport of football, whereas the stuff you enjoy is only requisite at the highest levels of play.
conc-jumping and especially bunny-hopping are integral to the way the top-tier players play, but that is not at all representative of the player base as a whole. meanwhile, passing and kicking is integral to every level of football. they are truly what makes football, football. if you removed passing and kicking from football, nobody would watch it anymore. but there are simply not enough people who care about what you care about to make the parallel work.
the metaphor only works for those who take it as given that concing/bhopping are integral to the essence of TFC. and the only people who believe that are the people you're not arguing with. your metaphor isn't changing the way we view the situation, it's just reinforcing the way you view the situation.
as an addendum, ill say that i don't really place basic concing in with the rest. i could conc out of the 2fort water in a matter of minutes. i guess you can call that the lateral pass of TFC.
Late to the party, but the argument that grenade/weapon jumping ruined the immersion is damned retarded.
TFC looks cartoony, its classes (at least, the original models) are mostly caricatures and over-the-top stereotypes. You can fall 40 feet and survive. You die and resurrect instantly. No weapon except a charged sniper shot, a sniper shot to the head, or a very well placed explosion can kill you instantly.
Now, take the last sentence and re-read it. Most weapons, including grenades, don't kill you in one hit. Note also that explosive weapons, the sniper rifle, and certain class-specific secondary grenades have a push effect. Put these two together, and voila - using a non-insta-kill weapon to launch you somewhere is a sensible (within the game universe and the game's obvious physical laws) tactic that virtually anyone could come up, provided a minimal amount of creativity and some familiarity with the game.
On the other hand, bunnyhopping and other lesser movement exploits were generally counter-intuitive and nonsensical, within the game's laws of physics. This is the difference. Anyone who says that weapon jumping broke their ability to suspend disbelief is fooling themselves.
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
That's probably why they're thinking of limiting servers to 16 players and making sure that each class is has a distinct role necessary for victory: so people don't double-up on classes as much. I figure their goal is to have every game be an 8v8 with no clones.
i haven't made any such mistake. passing is fundamental to even a junior high football team, and kicking is only marginalized because no amount of practice can overcome their physical immaturity. once you hit high school play (average pubber, as you say), passing and kicking are as important as anything. My point is, passing and field goals are fundamental to every level of the sport of football, whereas the stuff you enjoy is only requisite at the highest levels of play.
conc-jumping and especially bunny-hopping are integral to the way the top-tier players play, but that is not at all representative of the player base as a whole. meanwhile, passing and kicking is integral to every level of football. they are truly what makes football, football. if you removed passing and kicking from football, nobody would watch it anymore. but there are simply not enough people who care about what you care about to make the parallel work.
the metaphor only works for those who take it as given that concing/bhopping are integral to the essence of TFC. and the only people who believe that are the people you're not arguing with. your metaphor isn't changing the way we view the situation, it's just reinforcing the way you view the situation.
as an addendum, ill say that i don't really place basic concing in with the rest. i could conc out of the 2fort water in a matter of minutes. i guess you can call that the lateral pass of TFC.
Sigh, you're partially agreeing with me and refusing to admit it.
Let's try this again - first of all, we're talking about the impact of removing grenades from TF2, concussion grenades in particular, and how that would roughly correlate to the removal of passing and field goals from football. The emphasis is on concussion grenades because, as I have already argued, I feel their removal will have the most drastic impact on how the game is played. Even while you are trying to fight me tooth and nail to ensure my analogy fails, I think you'll agree that there is at some level a gradient in the usage of passing and field goals with respect to the difficulty level the game is being played at. Perhaps it scales at a slightly different rate than I initially laid out, but that is easily fixed:
Raw TFC newbie = Little kid in the peewee football leagues
---[ very little or no attempts ]
Average pubber = Bunch of friends playing flag football
---[ commonly attempted but low-success rate ]
Low-end clanner = Junior High School football
---[ frequent attempts and successes ]
Mid-level clanner = High School football
---[ borderline expert level ]
High-end clanner = College football
---[ near mastery]
Wow, you're elite at TFC = NFL football
---[ complete mastery of passing/field goals and concing/nading]
Whatever. Getting hung up on a perfect match seems kind of silly rather than viewing it as a rough analogy. Anyway, I'm sorry if it hasn't in some way changed the way you view this topic, but just because you seem adamant against letting it sway your viewpoint doesn't mean it is being completely wasted upon everyone. Even you agree that football without passing or kicking would be basically unwatchable, so if someone else decides that my correlation between passing and concing is reasonably valid, then my analogy is serving its purpose. While it isn't the absolute perfect metaphor, I think it's a far cry from the asinine and worthless comparison you were painting it out to be earlier.
Also, as an addendum to your addendum, I think concjumping is a skillset with a very linear and gradual learning curve. The "lateral pass" of doing the 2fort water conc gives way to learning how to do the stationary drop conc on the bridge from increasingly further distances, then progresses on to the moving drop conc by bleeding off some of the time with priming, and then finally on to the advanced stuff like hand held concs and multi-conc jumps. In alot of ways, this correlates pretty well to a quarterback's process of learning how to play.
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
Forcing highlander gameplay would actually be kind of cool - but from the video featuring endless swarms of same-team soldiers, I don't think that will be the case.
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
Forcing highlander gameplay would actually be kind of cool - but from the video featuring endless swarms of same-team soldiers, I don't think that will be the case.
Maybe certain maps could force it.
TFC and the original TF were strong for me because of the map variety. Not just design, but roles of the teams. Some games were capture the flag. Others you tried to kill the president. Others were cops and bank robbers. I really liked the cops and bank robbers one. Fanfare or not, they were nice. I hope we get more of that.
I can't believe this argument reached 22 pages. It's ridiculous.
Hey, guys, they haven't taken the grenades out of TFC!
They've taken the grenades out of TF2!
Grenades sure were an integral part of TFC's gameplay. That's awesome! TFC sure was fun, huh? They're making TF2 now. It is a game none of you have played, which draws heavy inspiration from a game you have! There are still Teams, and almost certainly at least one Fortress, but the classes do different things now. Had Valve not happened to mention in an interview that they had removed grenades, I doubt any of you would care a whole bunch upon actually playing the game when it's released, because it's not TFC, it is a different game, just similar, and a lot of you seem to be missing that.
Yes 22 pages is ridiculous I agree. But we are getting slammed from all angles when our complaint is actually a fair one. The angles are:
a) Extreme movement/combat in TFC sucked, I'm glad they removed it in TF2, you're dumb! b) This is a NEW game, you guys shouldn't be complaining its not like the old game you love because it's a new game. You're dumb! c) Why would Valve make a game that wasn't generic and appeals to the biggest market possible. Valve would never do this, they wouldn't be maximising their money. You're not being realistic. You're dumb!
I think that just about covers it. So we're fielding attacks from all different angles, then when we field one from one angle, someone from one of the other angles comes out and says "no, you idiot, we're not saying that", then proceeds to re-hash the same argument.
You just happen to fit into category b).
What it comes down to is YES!, hardcore gamers are a smaller demographic than the overall gaming demographic. However, we still want SOME games to cater to our tastes. These tastes aren't as "narrow" as you guys make them out to be. We just want games with a lot of technical skill, aiming, movement. Games that take practise, and games which by definition are not instantly accessible. (On a side note: I think tutorials for these skills would vastly improve the games accessibility in this area).
That's the thing, though. You have absolutely no fucking idea if the new gameplay appeals to your tastes, what demographic they're going after, how much technical skill, aiming, movement, whateverthefuck is in there. The fact that there aren't grenades really says jack fucking shit one way or the other. How do you even know you want the grenades? You've never played the game. You have played a similar one. Like it or not you are making a huge number of assumptions about gameplay based on fuck all.
My point is, the argument of whether grenades should be in TF2 is really completely fucking moot until any of us have played a few rounds.
...You have absolutely no fucking idea if the new gameplay appeals to your tastes... Like it or not you are making a huge number of assumptions about gameplay based on fuck all.
We have a lot more information about the way the game plays than you're implying. It's not merely the lack of grenades that tells us the game is not going to fulfill our desires. Here's one reason: there's a ~15-second respawn timer! That means that techniques that hurt yourself like rocket/pipe jumping are, in the long run, less beneficial because you'll be spending more time respawning. Another: "critical hits" mean that those jumps, again, are not as reliable. More: heavy weapons guys are supposedly a good offense. And again, Valve has never liked bunnyhopping, even in TFC.
Does this tell us how the game will play? Not at all. But it clearly does tell us that it won't have anywhere near as much emphasis on movement as the earlier iterations. That Robin Walker is really happy about TF2 yet also is saying that TFC sucks is only icing on the cake, and also means that, hey, it probably won't appeal to our tastes!
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Climbing on teammates was fun in ThieveryUT. Someone should send them an email about that idea.
Now you're coming up with new stuff for a change.
Actually I was being a little flippant. I just don't think anything that complicated is really feasible in a fast paced game, especially not in a clanning environment with friendly fire on. Oddly enough though, there are a whole range of TFC maps based on this principle called escape maps - everyone has to work together in a completely co-op setting to overcome obstacles and boobytraps, etc. Kind of a fun change of pace from the normal kill, kill, kill.
Well climbing on teammates reminds me of voltron, and voltron reminds me of zombies.
THERE MUST BE A ZOMBIES MOD!
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
Forcing highlander gameplay would actually be kind of cool - but from the video featuring endless swarms of same-team soldiers, I don't think that will be the case.
They also talk about multiple engineers working together, which makes a better Sentry gun than just one engineer working alone.
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
Forcing highlander gameplay would actually be kind of cool - but from the video featuring endless swarms of same-team soldiers, I don't think that will be the case.
They also talk about multiple engineers working together, which makes a better Sentry gun than just one engineer working alone.
I believe that multiple engineers simply make it better faster than one, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, I definitely like the idea of pushing teamplay a little bit harder in this, without making it mandatory. I'm thinking something along the lines of, in a public game, heading into their base, then randomly noticing a medic team-mate and rolling with him just for that life, for mutual gain.
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I definitely like the idea of pushing teamplay a little bit harder in this, without making it mandatory. I'm thinking something along the lines of, in a public game, heading into their base, then randomly noticing a medic team-mate and rolling with him just for that life, for mutual gain.
Does the Medi-gun have any offensive capability, at all? It makes me wonder if they're going to start making the medic get points for healing, instead of points only for captures/kills.
I'd also really love to see that syringe launcher in action.
Good question, it hasn't been confirmed one way or the other, but none of the previews thus far have mentioned any offensive capabilities, so an informed guess says no.
Also yeah I have no idea how the syringe launcher is going to work.
See, that's what I don't get. You're all interested in these other new/changed features, which is great. I'm just not so sure why everyone is worried about the grenade thing- because surely TF is already markedly different than the original?
I wait to have this bite me in the ass, but currently the only reason I don't care about the grenade change in the slightest is because I imagine TF2 is a lot different than its predecessors. I smell Engineers and particularly Medics getting some kind of system overhaul to make them more of a support class than yet another killer. I reckon you're onto something with the idea of getting points for healing as well as killing...
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
See, that's what I don't get. You're all interested in these other new/changed features, which is great. I'm just not so sure why everyone is worried about the grenade thing- because surely TF is already markedly different than the original?
I wait to have this bite me in the ass, but currently the only reason I don't care about the grenade change in the slightest is because I imagine TF2 is a lot different than its predecessors. I smell Engineers and particularly Medics getting some kind of system overhaul to make them more of a support class than yet another killer. I reckon you're onto something with the idea of getting points for healing as well as killing...
Yeah, I liked the old grenade system, but there's no real reason this can't be a good game without it. I am pretty interested in how they're going to handle 'support classes', which I've always found to have some pretty weak gameplay in comparison to other classes in most team games.
Also I was just thinking, and dear god I want to see a scout - spy melee battle. The scout will be dodging and jumping and swinging his bat like a madman while the spy will be trying to cloak and get off that critical backstab - I forsee the potential for awesome.
We're not actually completely against change. I for one am really looking forward to some of the changes mentioned.
However we see removal of grenades as a chance for the worst, for the reasons detailed many times. Nutshell: they lend themselves to a specific type of fast paced/highly skilled gameplay, with regards to difficult acrobatic maneuvres and skilled "resource management" and timing in combat.
So we don't hate everything about the changes, just the things are very convincingly (to us, up for debate) toning down the "eliteness"/hardcoreness of the gameplay, because that is the type of game we like to play, and feel there are very very few games that exist in this niche for us (there are a hell of a lot of us, though).
We don't want to lose our franchise to something less skillful and masterful.
Well... all this talk of "hardcore gamers" and "eliteness" is a bit confusing. I can certainly see where you're coming from, because grenades became an integral part of the original: but since TF2 seems to be a reboot of the franchise, I'm imaginging there'll be completely new skills to learn. Double jump. Cloaking. Critical hit momentum. And... uh... stuff I've probably forgotten to mention from not having read enough interviews or, for that matter, not having played the final game yet.
Incidentally: scout/spy duels do have the potential to be fuckawesome.
Yeah, we really hope you're right, and I do actually remain cautiously optimistic. But removal of grenades as well as other comments made by Robin Walker make us nervous.
I think the thing with this thread is there are a tonne of different problems people have with the general idea of "removal of grens makes us nervous", and it just became a bit of a cluster-fuck.
Given the response in this thread, I'd be shocked if that didn't happen.
The more I read, the more I realized TFC warped into some sort of grenade party that I never saw when I played. Guess I got out before that became common. That's why my first reaction to this was "Hey, I liked grenades" but the worst things I saw were scouts conc jumping up with the flag in 2fort.
There were spinoff maps for TF that were strictly about grenade jumping. It was like a big obstacle course where you started at 1 point and had to reach the end. There is also spinoffs of this in Quake 3, but I forget the name of the mod.
Really, the popularity of the game started dropping off by the time all this became really common and the hardcore started taking over... hardcore. TFC really wasn't filled grenade jumping of various sorts or bunnyhopping until a ways into its life, kind of like TF, though TFC held out longer.
I hesitate to say that these things that are held so dear by the hardcore clan players who think their removal will kill the soul of the game actually killed TFC, but it did start to decline. I really do think that more people hated it than liked it.
I'd love to see some numbers. Because the original TF became a huge hit all over the world. Hosting lan tournaments in various countries and all of this was a mainstay at that point in time.
Reading the last 6 pages of this thread has been pretty depressing. I have never seen people shit on more for their opinions than in this thread. I didn't count the time someone was called stupid, but I'm sure it was in the 20-30s. This forum usually doesn't argue in this manner.
And I noticed something else, something I didn't notice sooner. When someone's opinions differ from yours, call them an elitist or hardcore. I never once said I was better than anyone in TF/TFC/etc, there is absolutely no way to know whether I was an elitist. Likewise, I never said I played it hardcore either. These things were just tacked on, as they were to a multitude of other posts, as a way of discrediting an opinion.
The reason you don't see this kind of stuff on here all that often is because it's not 1998 any more and we're not all still playing CS and TFC like they're the only things that exist.
It's those types of games that get really really fine detailed and intense about their arguments.
Theres too many games and too little time to get 'hardcore' or 'elite' at it. I find that I just move onto the next game really quickly - kinda hoping TF2 would stop it is all. But grenades are gone - I just want to see how it plays without them.
Well, on the bright side, if no "elite" players like TF2 you can bet they'll all go back to TFC. [size=-9]And I won't have to deal with any dicks complaining about TF2.[/size]
Posts
F) Insults and generalization are not rational discourse, furthermore rational discourse cannot take place if their is no possibility for an legitimate argument. Being as both sides are actually in agreement over one fact (Man, TF2 is not going to be anything like TFC) and can never come to an agreement over another fact (Is this a good or bad thing? hint: it's both) I really can't see the point.
However I'll go out of my way here to fully explain my standing on the original argument. I'm a member of this "hardcore" group, although not this genre or game (I know, I know, I'm not one of the hardcore for this game so my opinion is all ready invalid). I am deeply saddened when something I loved about an older game is not carried over to newer iterations; I'm also full of fear over just this thing happening. However I'm not so foolish to believe that these things necessarily made the game better (although they did make it better for me). I'm also not so stupid as to believe that my place as one of this games largest fans entitles me to anything at all. I also need to note that I love the experience of discovering something new and mastering said new thing.
nstead of a fast class like scout who has the same grenades as a heavier class wins against the heavier class in most situations because they both have nades and the faster class can react better in that situation.
Just FYI, this was never the case. First of all, scouts didn't have frag grenades, but even still, a heavy weapons guy or soldier wins over an evenly-skilled scout, medic, pyro, spy or engineer every time. Only when there is a large skill disparity or the stronger guy is weakened/distracted/in a bad location do they lose.
edit: beat'd
You'll have to excuse my stupidness since I haven't been reading the thread, but aren't you essentially assuming there that the classes in TF2 are going to be the same, minus the grenade, as the original TF? The wording seems that way. They do seem to be changing quite a large amount, so I'm sure it'll be balanced enough that the "weaker" classes have some other advantages over the heaver classes. It isn't, after all, the same game.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
if you want a hint why, ask yourself what percentage of all NFL teams know how to pass and kick field goals and rely on them to win games versus what percentage of all TFC players knew how to conc-jump and bunnyhop and relied on them to win games.
these changes will change the game drastically for you im sure, but not for the player base as a whole. thus, it wouldn't have nearly the effect you'd have people believe by using that analogy.
there, now that ive explained why it doesnt work, i can go back to ignoring it if you decide to use it again.
Additionally, you are making a critical mistake - you are comparing ALL of the TFC players against just the NFL teams and going "hey look, they pass and do field goals way more often than the average TFC player tries to conc jump, therefore your analogy is crap!" While I don't really see why the fine details of the percentages has to match up for the overall analogy to work... fine, whatever, you're actually strengthening my analogy with that logic. The problem with your statement is that the NFL teams only represent the absolute highest tiers of "hardcore" football players. Of course there will be a discrepancy in "percentage of technique usage" or whatever you want to call it. However, if you compare the usage percentages of the NFL teams only against the upper tier TFC clans, and the average pubber to the local high school football team, and the raw newbie to a little kid in the peewee football leagues, then I think you'll find a surprisingly relevant correlation.
conc-jumping and especially bunny-hopping are integral to the way the top-tier players play, but that is not at all representative of the player base as a whole. meanwhile, passing and kicking is integral to every level of football. they are truly what makes football, football. if you removed passing and kicking from football, nobody would watch it anymore. but there are simply not enough people who care about what you care about to make the parallel work.
the metaphor only works for those who take it as given that concing/bhopping are integral to the essence of TFC. and the only people who believe that are the people you're not arguing with. your metaphor isn't changing the way we view the situation, it's just reinforcing the way you view the situation.
as an addendum, ill say that i don't really place basic concing in with the rest. i could conc out of the 2fort water in a matter of minutes. i guess you can call that the lateral pass of TFC.
TFC looks cartoony, its classes (at least, the original models) are mostly caricatures and over-the-top stereotypes. You can fall 40 feet and survive. You die and resurrect instantly. No weapon except a charged sniper shot, a sniper shot to the head, or a very well placed explosion can kill you instantly.
Now, take the last sentence and re-read it. Most weapons, including grenades, don't kill you in one hit. Note also that explosive weapons, the sniper rifle, and certain class-specific secondary grenades have a push effect. Put these two together, and voila - using a non-insta-kill weapon to launch you somewhere is a sensible (within the game universe and the game's obvious physical laws) tactic that virtually anyone could come up, provided a minimal amount of creativity and some familiarity with the game.
On the other hand, bunnyhopping and other lesser movement exploits were generally counter-intuitive and nonsensical, within the game's laws of physics. This is the difference. Anyone who says that weapon jumping broke their ability to suspend disbelief is fooling themselves.
Also, I like ecchi's possibility, quoted below. Every highlander match I played in was good times.
Let's try this again - first of all, we're talking about the impact of removing grenades from TF2, concussion grenades in particular, and how that would roughly correlate to the removal of passing and field goals from football. The emphasis is on concussion grenades because, as I have already argued, I feel their removal will have the most drastic impact on how the game is played. Even while you are trying to fight me tooth and nail to ensure my analogy fails, I think you'll agree that there is at some level a gradient in the usage of passing and field goals with respect to the difficulty level the game is being played at. Perhaps it scales at a slightly different rate than I initially laid out, but that is easily fixed:
Raw TFC newbie = Little kid in the peewee football leagues
---[ very little or no attempts ]
Average pubber = Bunch of friends playing flag football
---[ commonly attempted but low-success rate ]
Low-end clanner = Junior High School football
---[ frequent attempts and successes ]
Mid-level clanner = High School football
---[ borderline expert level ]
High-end clanner = College football
---[ near mastery]
Wow, you're elite at TFC = NFL football
---[ complete mastery of passing/field goals and concing/nading]
Whatever. Getting hung up on a perfect match seems kind of silly rather than viewing it as a rough analogy. Anyway, I'm sorry if it hasn't in some way changed the way you view this topic, but just because you seem adamant against letting it sway your viewpoint doesn't mean it is being completely wasted upon everyone. Even you agree that football without passing or kicking would be basically unwatchable, so if someone else decides that my correlation between passing and concing is reasonably valid, then my analogy is serving its purpose. While it isn't the absolute perfect metaphor, I think it's a far cry from the asinine and worthless comparison you were painting it out to be earlier.
Also, as an addendum to your addendum, I think concjumping is a skillset with a very linear and gradual learning curve. The "lateral pass" of doing the 2fort water conc gives way to learning how to do the stationary drop conc on the bridge from increasingly further distances, then progresses on to the moving drop conc by bleeding off some of the time with priming, and then finally on to the advanced stuff like hand held concs and multi-conc jumps. In alot of ways, this correlates pretty well to a quarterback's process of learning how to play.
Maybe certain maps could force it.
TFC and the original TF were strong for me because of the map variety. Not just design, but roles of the teams. Some games were capture the flag. Others you tried to kill the president. Others were cops and bank robbers. I really liked the cops and bank robbers one. Fanfare or not, they were nice. I hope we get more of that.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
I haven't seen a single justifiable use of that word in this entire thread.
Congrats.
My point is, the argument of whether grenades should be in TF2 is really completely fucking moot until any of us have played a few rounds.
So, uh
24 pages, huh?
Does this tell us how the game will play? Not at all. But it clearly does tell us that it won't have anywhere near as much emphasis on movement as the earlier iterations. That Robin Walker is really happy about TF2 yet also is saying that TFC sucks is only icing on the cake, and also means that, hey, it probably won't appeal to our tastes!
Well climbing on teammates reminds me of voltron, and voltron reminds me of zombies.
THERE MUST BE A ZOMBIES MOD!
They also talk about multiple engineers working together, which makes a better Sentry gun than just one engineer working alone.
I believe that multiple engineers simply make it better faster than one, but I could be wrong.
Does the Medi-gun have any offensive capability, at all? It makes me wonder if they're going to start making the medic get points for healing, instead of points only for captures/kills.
I'd also really love to see that syringe launcher in action.
Also yeah I have no idea how the syringe launcher is going to work.
I wait to have this bite me in the ass, but currently the only reason I don't care about the grenade change in the slightest is because I imagine TF2 is a lot different than its predecessors. I smell Engineers and particularly Medics getting some kind of system overhaul to make them more of a support class than yet another killer. I reckon you're onto something with the idea of getting points for healing as well as killing...
Yeah, I liked the old grenade system, but there's no real reason this can't be a good game without it. I am pretty interested in how they're going to handle 'support classes', which I've always found to have some pretty weak gameplay in comparison to other classes in most team games.
Also I was just thinking, and dear god I want to see a scout - spy melee battle. The scout will be dodging and jumping and swinging his bat like a madman while the spy will be trying to cloak and get off that critical backstab - I forsee the potential for awesome.
However we see removal of grenades as a chance for the worst, for the reasons detailed many times. Nutshell: they lend themselves to a specific type of fast paced/highly skilled gameplay, with regards to difficult acrobatic maneuvres and skilled "resource management" and timing in combat.
So we don't hate everything about the changes, just the things are very convincingly (to us, up for debate) toning down the "eliteness"/hardcoreness of the gameplay, because that is the type of game we like to play, and feel there are very very few games that exist in this niche for us (there are a hell of a lot of us, though).
We don't want to lose our franchise to something less skillful and masterful.
Incidentally: scout/spy duels do have the potential to be fuckawesome.
I think the thing with this thread is there are a tonne of different problems people have with the general idea of "removal of grens makes us nervous", and it just became a bit of a cluster-fuck.
There were spinoff maps for TF that were strictly about grenade jumping. It was like a big obstacle course where you started at 1 point and had to reach the end. There is also spinoffs of this in Quake 3, but I forget the name of the mod.
I'd love to see some numbers. Because the original TF became a huge hit all over the world. Hosting lan tournaments in various countries and all of this was a mainstay at that point in time.
And I noticed something else, something I didn't notice sooner. When someone's opinions differ from yours, call them an elitist or hardcore. I never once said I was better than anyone in TF/TFC/etc, there is absolutely no way to know whether I was an elitist. Likewise, I never said I played it hardcore either. These things were just tacked on, as they were to a multitude of other posts, as a way of discrediting an opinion.
The reason you don't see this kind of stuff on here all that often is because it's not 1998 any more and we're not all still playing CS and TFC like they're the only things that exist.
It's those types of games that get really really fine detailed and intense about their arguments.
Theres too many games and too little time to get 'hardcore' or 'elite' at it. I find that I just move onto the next game really quickly - kinda hoping TF2 would stop it is all. But grenades are gone - I just want to see how it plays without them.
TF2 looks to be really fun, eh, dudes?