For IF S2 I want to see more of Kun Lun. I want to know specifics about this dragon. I want to know specifically what Danny did. In his own show all we got was he went into a cave, two points of light supposed to be dragin eyes, then he's found by Davos outside the cave, having won. Give me the goods man! You don't have to have a big CHI dragon, but show something.
Well the main thing is that they super teased a reveal for something along the line of "there never was any dragon" or "there never was a fight. We had tea"
The hand just goes, "Yes, our resources have been very depleted attempting to get more of... the substance."
But like, what resources? The show never asks for you to wonder that, it's just some shit they say. They still have a big ass building filled with goons, they still have money, they still have... everything, p much. Except the resources
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Is there a way for me to just automatically agree with everything Kana says in this thread? Thx.
The hand just goes, "Yes, our resources have been very depleted attempting to get more of... the substance."
But like, what resources? The show never asks for you to wonder that, it's just some shit they say. They still have a big ass building filled with goons, they still have money, they still have... everything, p much. Except the resources
Sometimes it sounded like they were using "resources" and "the substance" interchangeably
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The hand just goes, "Yes, our resources have been very depleted attempting to get more of... the substance."
But like, what resources? The show never asks for you to wonder that, it's just some shit they say. They still have a big ass building filled with goons, they still have money, they still have... everything, p much. Except the resources
Sometimes it sounded like they were using "resources" and "the substance" interchangeably
"substources"
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HeatwaveCome, now, and walk the path of explosions with me!Registered Userregular
Watched episode 6. Danny continues to be the worst.
I was glad Matt was on winning the fight against Danny. Had Jessica not intervened, I'm pretty sure Matt would have evenly knocked him out.
The villains in season 1 of Daredevil and Jessica Jones are incredibly threating. The heroes feel like they are fighting a unwinnable uphill battle.
That is something they have lost in subsequent shows / seasons. And I'd argue it's something they needed for The Defenders.
At this point you know too much about the Hand and having them on their last legs does not seem like a great premise for all these heroes coming together.
Think of how they up the stakes in The Avengers.
There needed to be
something fucking terrifying locked under Midland Circle. Instead we get... bones. Cool.
I'd heard a rumour that Fin Fang Foom was going to be the final villain of the show, and I was honestly disappointed that he wasn't (although not surprised, given budget). There definitely needed to be a villain a tier or two above Elektra.
The main question I'm left with about the Hand and how it relates to the other series is
if The Substance was so rare and they were running out, why did they keep bringing relatively chump ninjas back to life? And why does it sometimes require application after each death and sometimes it just works in perpituity (like the ninjas in the hospital)?
I think overall they overestimated how compelling the Hand is as a primary antagonist. "Hordes of zombie ninjas" sounds fucking awesome if you're brainstorming into a Metallica notebook, but it's actually pretty tough to maintain any sort of real tension with. They get around this in the comics for the most part by making the Hand more mercenary in their motivations, so they can just show up out of nowhere and give you the big ninja fight, then melt into the scenery and let the story progress as normal. Putting them front and center only works when the audience cares about the personalities involved, and we didn't really get the chance to do that for most of the antagonists in this case.
The other problem is that The Hand has never really had a win that we've seen. We've been repeatedly told that they're a scary ninja army that controls everything, but outside of Nobu's crew in season 1 of DD they've never really seemed particularly dangerous or effective at anything.
I think that if Marvel wants to do a Neteflix verse, they need to have someone oversee the whole thing, like with thier movie division. A good overseer could have kept the Hand more consistent, interesting, and overall better. On the other hand, the problem with that approach is the risk you get the sameyness of the Marvel movies. Defenders aside, we would be worse off if DD S1 and JJ S1 were not allowed to be thier own thing.
The other problem is that The Hand has never really had a win that we've seen. We've been repeatedly told that they're a scary ninja army that controls everything, but outside of Nobu's crew in season 1 of DD they've never really seemed particularly dangerous or effective at anything.
Well, overall they were presented pretty weakly, but they did get 1 major win- Elektra.
For IF S2 I want to see more of Kun Lun. I want to know specifics about this dragon. I want to know specifically what Danny did. In his own show all we got was he went into a cave, two points of light supposed to be dragin eyes, then he's found by Davos outside the cave, having won. Give me the goods man! You don't have to have a big CHI dragon, but show something.
I believe in season one when asked about fighting the dragon he said something along the lines of it was not what he had expected. So I was not sure to take that as it was not actually a dragon but something else although the bones under NY seem to indicate dragons could be a literal thing.
At this point I'd be fine with them completely decoupling the Netflix stuff from the film stuff. To the point where I'd be a-ok with them having CW budget versions of Cap and Ironman, etc running around. The hand-wringing (no pun intended) they're doing around making these characters honest to god super heroes for fear of clashing with the broader film narrative is woefully apparent.
Could the Dragon have been more of an internal thing, kind of like the dark force cave on Dathomir in Empire Strikes Back?
In the comics it's plunging your hands into the heart of the dragon that makes one's fists 'like a thing unto iron'. So I sure as hell hope he actually beat the dragon. He's so vastly underpowered in the show though that I could totally see them going with more of the metaphor kind of route.
Could the Dragon have been more of an internal thing, kind of like the dark force cave on Dathomir in Empire Strikes Back?
In the comics it's plunging your hands into the heart of the dragon that makes one's fists 'like a thing unto iron'. So I sure as hell hope he actually beat the dragon. He's so vastly underpowered in the show though that I could totally see them going with more of the metaphor kind of route.
Is it like Dragonheart where the Dragon lets you? Or do you have to pretty much slay the Dragon?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I think that if Marvel wants to do a Neteflix verse, they need to have someone oversee the whole thing, like with thier movie division. A good overseer could have kept the Hand more consistent, interesting, and overall better. On the other hand, the problem with that approach is the risk you get the sameyness of the Marvel movies. Defenders aside, we would be worse off if DD S1 and JJ S1 were not allowed to be thier own thing.
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I think the substance is only necessary for an initial revive. Once you've been revived with the substance once, you become functionally immortal unless decapitated. The initial "dunk" is what is resource intensive. The five fingers and Nobu (and probably some other mooks) were all dunked at some point early on, with Meecham getting dunked more recently, but before Elektra, at the age they appear to be to this day. That is to say, Madame Gao and Alexandra were probably not dunked until they were in their 50's/60's, with the others having been dunked at a younger age. Once they "die" they do not need to be re-dunked (see Meecham and probably Bakuto, since he "died" and apparently revived after they used the rest of the substance on Elektra), they just need some time to recover, with, apparently, some exceptions (old age? Cancer? Other degenerative diseases?), which is why Alexandra was suddenly panicked at the prospect of facing death.
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I think the substance is only necessary for an initial revive. Once you've been revived with the substance once, you become functionally immortal unless decapitated. The initial "dunk" is what is resource intensive. The five fingers and Nobu (and probably some other mooks) were all dunked at some point early on, with Meecham getting dunked more recently, but before Elektra, at the age they appear to be to this day. That is to say, Madame Gao and Alexandra were probably not dunked until they were in their 50's/60's, with the others having been dunked at a younger age. Once they "die" they do not need to be re-dunked (see Meecham and probably Bakuto, since he "died" and apparently revived after they used the rest of the substance on Elektra), they just need some time to recover, with, apparently, some exceptions (old age? Cancer? Other degenerative diseases?), which is why Alexandra was suddenly panicked at the prospect of facing death.
I don't believe that's the case, at least not in Defenders.
Since they are pissed about her using the last of the substance, and making a very big deal of the fact that death is now something they fear.
It's very possible the initial process takes a lot more of the stuff, but it seems like they need it at at least some occasions to keep themselves alive and/or revive again.
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I think the substance is only necessary for an initial revive. Once you've been revived with the substance once, you become functionally immortal unless decapitated. The initial "dunk" is what is resource intensive. The five fingers and Nobu (and probably some other mooks) were all dunked at some point early on, with Meecham getting dunked more recently, but before Elektra, at the age they appear to be to this day. That is to say, Madame Gao and Alexandra were probably not dunked until they were in their 50's/60's, with the others having been dunked at a younger age. Once they "die" they do not need to be re-dunked (see Meecham and probably Bakuto, since he "died" and apparently revived after they used the rest of the substance on Elektra), they just need some time to recover, with, apparently, some exceptions (old age? Cancer? Other degenerative diseases?), which is why Alexandra was suddenly panicked at the prospect of facing death.
I don't believe that's the case, at least not in Defenders.
Since they are pissed about her using the last of the substance, and making a very big deal of the fact that death is now something they fear.
It's very possible the initial process takes a lot more of the stuff, but it seems like they need it at at least some occasions to keep themselves alive and/or revive again.
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I think the substance is only necessary for an initial revive. Once you've been revived with the substance once, you become functionally immortal unless decapitated. The initial "dunk" is what is resource intensive. The five fingers and Nobu (and probably some other mooks) were all dunked at some point early on, with Meecham getting dunked more recently, but before Elektra, at the age they appear to be to this day. That is to say, Madame Gao and Alexandra were probably not dunked until they were in their 50's/60's, with the others having been dunked at a younger age. Once they "die" they do not need to be re-dunked (see Meecham and probably Bakuto, since he "died" and apparently revived after they used the rest of the substance on Elektra), they just need some time to recover, with, apparently, some exceptions (old age? Cancer? Other degenerative diseases?), which is why Alexandra was suddenly panicked at the prospect of facing death.
I don't believe that's the case, at least not in Defenders.
Since they are pissed about her using the last of the substance, and making a very big deal of the fact that death is now something they fear.
It's very possible the initial process takes a lot more of the stuff, but it seems like they need it at at least some occasions to keep themselves alive and/or revive again.
Kinda mixed between the two.
They may specifically be afraid of head chopping since that's a heightened risk for the secret ninja crowd.
The idea that it needs to be topped off might be a every few centuries thing or a huge bodily trauma thing. Still unclear if Alexandra expected to be able to use the new substance to have herself brought back from super cancer thing.
The main question I'm left with about the Hand and how it relates to the other series is
if The Substance was so rare and they were running out, why did they keep bringing relatively chump ninjas back to life? And why does it sometimes require application after each death and sometimes it just works in perpituity (like the ninjas in the hospital)?
I think overall they overestimated how compelling the Hand is as a primary antagonist. "Hordes of zombie ninjas" sounds fucking awesome if you're brainstorming into a Metallica notebook, but it's actually pretty tough to maintain any sort of real tension with. They get around this in the comics for the most part by making the Hand more mercenary in their motivations, so they can just show up out of nowhere and give you the big ninja fight, then melt into the scenery and let the story progress as normal. Putting them front and center only works when the audience cares about the personalities involved, and we didn't really get the chance to do that for most of the antagonists in this case.
Hordes of Zombie ninjas are fine, do you know how you resolve that storyline when your heroes are unable to beat the undying? Have god damn Daredevil beat their leader fully and take over the Hand. That's another comic book storyline, then we get a season of Daredevil with an army to carry out his mission. You can resolve it by Kingpin taking over the Hand at the end.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I think the substance is only necessary for an initial revive. Once you've been revived with the substance once, you become functionally immortal unless decapitated. The initial "dunk" is what is resource intensive. The five fingers and Nobu (and probably some other mooks) were all dunked at some point early on, with Meecham getting dunked more recently, but before Elektra, at the age they appear to be to this day. That is to say, Madame Gao and Alexandra were probably not dunked until they were in their 50's/60's, with the others having been dunked at a younger age. Once they "die" they do not need to be re-dunked (see Meecham and probably Bakuto, since he "died" and apparently revived after they used the rest of the substance on Elektra), they just need some time to recover, with, apparently, some exceptions (old age? Cancer? Other degenerative diseases?), which is why Alexandra was suddenly panicked at the prospect of facing death.
I don't believe that's the case, at least not in Defenders.
Since they are pissed about her using the last of the substance, and making a very big deal of the fact that death is now something they fear.
It's very possible the initial process takes a lot more of the stuff, but it seems like they need it at at least some occasions to keep themselves alive and/or revive again.
Ok, but how then to explain
Meecham and Bakuto
That's easy. They don't.
Obviously Bakuto was worth reviving even if they knew they were low on the stuff.
But Meecham provided limited usefulness to waste resources on, unless they weren't aware they were so low at the time they resurrected him. Which, for a group that is supposed to have been around for ages, and REALLY seems to need the substance, would be unlikely.
But really, they basically just don't even address it at all.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
If that were the case then
wouldn't the logical move for the other 4 fingers - especially after the Black Sky proves to not be quite what it was made out to be - be to kill Alexandra before she does more damage and fuck off to the back-end of beyond until the heat dies down?
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
The substance had been used up by the time Alexandra had been diagnosed, not that their method of resurrection couldn't cure her cancer (Daddy Meechum had his cancer cured by the Hand in the IF series)
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
If that were the case then
wouldn't the logical move for the other 4 fingers - especially after the Black Sky proves to not be quite what it was made out to be - be to kill Alexandra before she does more damage and fuck off to the back-end of beyond until the heat dies down?
Um... isn't that exactly what was going to happen before
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
The substance had been used up by the time Alexandra had been diagnosed, not that their method of resurrection couldn't cure her cancer (Daddy Meechum had his cancer cured by the Hand in the IF series)
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
Is it even ever made explicit that Alexandra
even has cancer? I don't recall them ever mentioning what the disease actually was, just that she didn't have long to live. Could have been MS for all we know. Also, this still doesn't explain how Meecham survived his stabbing and swamp bath.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
The substance had been used up by the time Alexandra had been diagnosed, not that their method of resurrection couldn't cure her cancer (Daddy Meechum had his cancer cured by the Hand in the IF series)
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
Is it even ever made explicit that Alexandra
even has cancer? I don't recall them ever mentioning what the disease actually was, just that she didn't have long to live. Could have been MS for all we know. Also, this still doesn't explain how Meecham survived his stabbing and swamp bath.
I always read it as
Her body shutting down, not an explicit disease.
She didn't seem too shocked by it. So I sort of read it as "substance withdrawal" as it were. Like that's what happens when they need it to stay alive, but can't obtain it.
Which would make sense for the moved up timeline, she was fighting for her life.
If it was all about legacy, the timeline would matter very little. She had her Black Skye, and could train her with or without more substance. She may have certainly seen her as her most valuable trump card to ensure she gets the substance however.
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
The substance had been used up by the time Alexandra had been diagnosed, not that their method of resurrection couldn't cure her cancer (Daddy Meechum had his cancer cured by the Hand in the IF series)
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
Is it even ever made explicit that Alexandra
even has cancer? I don't recall them ever mentioning what the disease actually was, just that she didn't have long to live. Could have been MS for all we know. Also, this still doesn't explain how Meecham survived his stabbing and swamp bath.
I always read it as
Her body shutting down, not an explicit disease.
She didn't seem too shocked by it. So I sort of read it as "substance withdrawal" as it were. Like that's what happens when they need it to stay alive, but can't obtain it.
Which would make sense for the moved up timeline, she was fighting for her life.
If it was all about legacy, the timeline would matter very little. She had her Black Skye, and could train her with or without more substance. She may have certainly seen her as her most valuable trump card to ensure she gets the substance however.
Well, the timeline still matters if
She wants to see her legacy enacted before she dies. She fails, of course, but that doesn't invalidate her motivation.
Could the Dragon have been more of an internal thing, kind of like the dark force cave on Dathomir in Empire Strikes Back?
In the comics it's plunging your hands into the heart of the dragon that makes one's fists 'like a thing unto iron'. So I sure as hell hope he actually beat the dragon. He's so vastly underpowered in the show though that I could totally see them going with more of the metaphor kind of route.
Is it like Dragonheart where the Dragon lets you? Or do you have to pretty much slay the Dragon?
It's always left vague but definitely implied that he needs to fight the dragon. Though think of it more as a pre-arranged duel wherein the dragon knows what's up and will eventually return (as their have been IFs since the dawn of time).
If they don't need more of the substance to keep themselves going then their behavior in NYC makes no sense. They could have simply gone off and sold heroin or whatever they do in their off time on the other side of the planet for a few decades and come back once everyone stopped caring that the Hand technically owns that perfectly innocuous, law-abiding office building and the current crop of anti-Hand fighters have died, retired, or moved to other places.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
The substance had been used up by the time Alexandra had been diagnosed, not that their method of resurrection couldn't cure her cancer (Daddy Meechum had his cancer cured by the Hand in the IF series)
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
Holy shit, yeah, that's right!
Alexandra resurrected Elektra before she's diagnosed with mega cancer! I totally forgot about that part of the timeline.
Nobu's dead, but they've got the Black Sky, which seemed important at the time (and, let's face it, she's been murdering Chaste soldiers like it's no thing).
Then Alexandra finds out she's dying, which moves the timeline up and throws everything into a massive clusterfuck when they don't have an army of undead ninja any more, but do have to deal with Daredevil, a Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage in order to get at Danny and open the door. Any one of them, with the possible exception of Luke, would probably be fucked against the five fingers of the hand, plus Elektra. But now they're together, and there's no guarantee the Hand can deal with them without their do-over potion.
Everyone is pissed at Alexandra when she goes into a panic over dying and puts their, now vulnerable, lives at risk by provoking the Defenders. Also, a couple of them are a little salty that her pet project, the Black Sky, is actually a loose cannon psychopath with no regard for them or their goals, loyal only to Alexandra.
Then Elektra says "fuck you, I'm taking over this dog and pony show. Anybody wanna risk me shanking them?"
That's a reference to the old Kung Fu show, or the things it was referencing. At the end of training, your challenge was to lift a pot full of boiling water with your forearms, and it brands you.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds.2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited August 2017
Finally finished this show after just stopping with 20 minutes left in the final episode. It's just bad, I'd say it's worse than Luke Cage because this is not the result of planning or anything thought out or even a big culmination. It's bad schlock. For it's faults at least Iron Fist kept moving at a brisker pace (and it was 5 episodes longer!) and had a better supporting character subplot. And with it's low budget and lack of anything to stand out it really shows that Marvel TV, like the comics division, shows borderline contempt for the audience.
last episode
way to shit not only on Matt's "death" by bringing him back but also just making it look so fake as fuck to begin with. That kind of comic dead but not really just doesn't translate well into live action. And also way to pad the fucking epilogue out with things that don't even matter anymore as a result of him being alive.
And all the fights in the final episode, so slow, so bad. It was the Luke Cage final fight only 4 times worse because it was four times the letdown. There was a part where someone runs at Luke in the dragon cave and instead of picking him up and slamming him basically like the Rock or Kane or Undertaker did to end a match, because Luke can lift 200 pounds easily, he just sort of grabs him by the waist and pushes him down and almost looks like he's tucking him into the ground for a nap. And not even in some cool naptime way, just this shit choreography one chance thing.
And the DD/Elektra fight, on top of bland fighting your ex talk her down shit, you got bad camera cuts and just a complete inability to use the dark shadows for stuntmen to really go to town. I thought that was the whole point of fighting down there, and using people with two stunt friendly costumes (long hair and mask!)
Also would it really be a problem to just let Danny have an outfit? This Netflix brand is becoming so scared to let people don something besides street clothes.
Also Also the Hand fucking sucked as villains. Never cared for any of them, Gao was a nasty smelly old fart of a character when you expected something better (but that probably meant $$$ for effects), Bakuto can withstand gunshots because fuck you, and I never want to hear the word resources until January 2018.
I am really not feeling good for Punisher after this, because these shows seem to be regressing away from making them darker and more adult. Oh yes, there's been some blood and lack of heads, but it's a very PG-13 style compared to something like shotgun to the face in DD2. It seems like after that series all the shows started trending cleaner. Could be because it makes them cheaper, could be because Disney might be getting a little scared, if Frank doesn't kill 20 people in the first show something is wrong.
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But like, what resources? The show never asks for you to wonder that, it's just some shit they say. They still have a big ass building filled with goons, they still have money, they still have... everything, p much. Except the resources
Sometimes it sounded like they were using "resources" and "the substance" interchangeably
"substources"
Steam / Origin & Wii U: Heatwave111 / FC: 4227-1965-3206 / Battle.net: Heatwave#11356
There needed to be
I'd heard a rumour that Fin Fang Foom was going to be the final villain of the show, and I was honestly disappointed that he wasn't (although not surprised, given budget). There definitely needed to be a villain a tier or two above Elektra.
I think overall they overestimated how compelling the Hand is as a primary antagonist. "Hordes of zombie ninjas" sounds fucking awesome if you're brainstorming into a Metallica notebook, but it's actually pretty tough to maintain any sort of real tension with. They get around this in the comics for the most part by making the Hand more mercenary in their motivations, so they can just show up out of nowhere and give you the big ninja fight, then melt into the scenery and let the story progress as normal. Putting them front and center only works when the audience cares about the personalities involved, and we didn't really get the chance to do that for most of the antagonists in this case.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Well, overall they were presented pretty weakly, but they did get 1 major win- Elektra.
I believe in season one when asked about fighting the dragon he said something along the lines of it was not what he had expected. So I was not sure to take that as it was not actually a dragon but something else although the bones under NY seem to indicate dragons could be a literal thing.
In the comics it's plunging your hands into the heart of the dragon that makes one's fists 'like a thing unto iron'. So I sure as hell hope he actually beat the dragon. He's so vastly underpowered in the show though that I could totally see them going with more of the metaphor kind of route.
Is it like Dragonheart where the Dragon lets you? Or do you have to pretty much slay the Dragon?
Isn't that supposed to be Loeb's job?
Spoilers for Defenders but also Iron Fist and Daredevil:
I don't believe that's the case, at least not in Defenders.
It's very possible the initial process takes a lot more of the stuff, but it seems like they need it at at least some occasions to keep themselves alive and/or revive again.
Ok, but how then to explain
Kinda mixed between the two.
The idea that it needs to be topped off might be a every few centuries thing or a huge bodily trauma thing. Still unclear if Alexandra expected to be able to use the new substance to have herself brought back from super cancer thing.
Hordes of Zombie ninjas are fine, do you know how you resolve that storyline when your heroes are unable to beat the undying? Have god damn Daredevil beat their leader fully and take over the Hand. That's another comic book storyline, then we get a season of Daredevil with an army to carry out his mission. You can resolve it by Kingpin taking over the Hand at the end.
Alexandra could have just not resurrected Elektra and saved the juice for herself, post-cancer-death, assuming that's a thing that it can do. And if it's not then her gambling the entire Hand's immortality on a completely unnecessary super soldier seems like it should have lead to her very rapid de-head-ification.
Also, the idea that humans who aren't somehow inherently immune to cancer could live for thousands of years without becoming basically walking tumors is absurd. Even more absurd than the just living-forever part.
I get what you're saying, but I have a different interpretation of the events of Defenders:
Alexandra being diagnosed with cancer is the inciting incident of the events of the show. Like you said, the hand was perfectly happy with continuing with the status quo. They had discovered their next source of "substance" beneath New York and, up until the Defenders, were not in a hurry to harvest it. They knew where it was, they had purchased the property and build a giant empty building on top so no one would accidentally stumble upon their resource. Sure, they were stymied by the door at the bottom until, look who shows up in New York: Dumb 'ol Danny Rand, just the guy they needed! Everything is coming up Handy! Daredevil and losing Nobu were nuisances but nothing they couldn't overcome.
Suddenly, Alexandra, their leader, discovers she has some kind of disease that, for some reason, even the substance can't cure. For the first time in probably millennia, the leader of the hand has to face death, like, for real this time.
Thing is, Alexandra wasn't looking to resurrect, she was looking for a legacy to survive her: The Black Sky. With time no longer on her side for the first time, Alexandra says "fuck it", and we get the events of the show.
That's easy. They don't.
But Meecham provided limited usefulness to waste resources on, unless they weren't aware they were so low at the time they resurrected him. Which, for a group that is supposed to have been around for ages, and REALLY seems to need the substance, would be unlikely.
But really, they basically just don't even address it at all.
If that were the case then
The scene of Elektra being brought back actually happens, chronologically, happens before the opening scene of episode 1, with Elektra killing that member of the Chaste and kicking Danny's ass, and also after Alexandra visits her doctor and tells her that she doesn't have long to live.
Um... isn't that exactly what was going to happen before
Is it even ever made explicit that Alexandra
I always read it as
She didn't seem too shocked by it. So I sort of read it as "substance withdrawal" as it were. Like that's what happens when they need it to stay alive, but can't obtain it.
Which would make sense for the moved up timeline, she was fighting for her life.
If it was all about legacy, the timeline would matter very little. She had her Black Skye, and could train her with or without more substance. She may have certainly seen her as her most valuable trump card to ensure she gets the substance however.
Well, the timeline still matters if
It's always left vague but definitely implied that he needs to fight the dragon. Though think of it more as a pre-arranged duel wherein the dragon knows what's up and will eventually return (as their have been IFs since the dawn of time).
Holy shit, yeah, that's right!
Nobu's dead, but they've got the Black Sky, which seemed important at the time (and, let's face it, she's been murdering Chaste soldiers like it's no thing).
Then Alexandra finds out she's dying, which moves the timeline up and throws everything into a massive clusterfuck when they don't have an army of undead ninja any more, but do have to deal with Daredevil, a Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage in order to get at Danny and open the door. Any one of them, with the possible exception of Luke, would probably be fucked against the five fingers of the hand, plus Elektra. But now they're together, and there's no guarantee the Hand can deal with them without their do-over potion.
Everyone is pissed at Alexandra when she goes into a panic over dying and puts their, now vulnerable, lives at risk by provoking the Defenders. Also, a couple of them are a little salty that her pet project, the Black Sky, is actually a loose cannon psychopath with no regard for them or their goals, loyal only to Alexandra.
Then Elektra says "fuck you, I'm taking over this dog and pony show. Anybody wanna risk me shanking them?"
That... Actually hangs together pretty well!
The dragon's name is Shou-Lao the Undying. That second part seems to be the key here.
That's a reference to the old Kung Fu show, or the things it was referencing. At the end of training, your challenge was to lift a pot full of boiling water with your forearms, and it brands you.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
last episode
And all the fights in the final episode, so slow, so bad. It was the Luke Cage final fight only 4 times worse because it was four times the letdown. There was a part where someone runs at Luke in the dragon cave and instead of picking him up and slamming him basically like the Rock or Kane or Undertaker did to end a match, because Luke can lift 200 pounds easily, he just sort of grabs him by the waist and pushes him down and almost looks like he's tucking him into the ground for a nap. And not even in some cool naptime way, just this shit choreography one chance thing.
And the DD/Elektra fight, on top of bland fighting your ex talk her down shit, you got bad camera cuts and just a complete inability to use the dark shadows for stuntmen to really go to town. I thought that was the whole point of fighting down there, and using people with two stunt friendly costumes (long hair and mask!)
Also would it really be a problem to just let Danny have an outfit? This Netflix brand is becoming so scared to let people don something besides street clothes.
Also Also the Hand fucking sucked as villains. Never cared for any of them, Gao was a nasty smelly old fart of a character when you expected something better (but that probably meant $$$ for effects), Bakuto can withstand gunshots because fuck you, and I never want to hear the word resources until January 2018.
I am really not feeling good for Punisher after this, because these shows seem to be regressing away from making them darker and more adult. Oh yes, there's been some blood and lack of heads, but it's a very PG-13 style compared to something like shotgun to the face in DD2. It seems like after that series all the shows started trending cleaner. Could be because it makes them cheaper, could be because Disney might be getting a little scared, if Frank doesn't kill 20 people in the first show something is wrong.