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[GoT][ASoIaF] Date to renew your HBO Now subs: April 14 2019(Open TV Spoilers)

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Posts

  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    My only issue with the show right now is that they are losing the "everyone can die" threat that used to loom over our characters.

    With Jaime nor Bronn not dying at the Loot Train to this episode not losing anyone but Thoros, its feeling a bit more Hollywood. Especially when they keep doing fakeouts, like they've recently done with Jaime, Tormund, and Jorah.

    That was never really a threat. People make out GoT to be this super grim expience where everyone you love dies and it's just not borne out by actual experience.

    If you're a primary character, not a Stark, and not actively in Cersei's way (or not within her immediate reach) then you have about as much plot-armor in GoT as you do in any other piece of fiction.

    Hell, even being a Stark doesn't really impinge upon your protagonist armor that much. Ned died to introduce the idea of a threat to every PoV character to keep the tension up. Catelyn and Robb died to perpetuate it because no protagonists had died in a while. Rickon died but honestly who gives a shit about Rickon? Meanwhile Arya, Sansa, and Bran have continually slipped through deaths fingers again and again.

    A bunch of beloved protagonists might die off in the last couple of episodes as part of the story's finale but people vastly over-state how frequently the books or the show kill off main characters.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    I wonder if the "raise undead" ability that the walkers have is at all related to warging. They're basically warging a bunch of dead stuff at once and keeping them acting as individuals.

    Also, can Arya warg in the show? Probably not.

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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    Here's my prediction.
    Jon is about to become Jon Stark.

    that isn't going to happen.
    There are two people that can legitimise a bastard.
    The lord that spawned him -or- the ruling monarch.

    Ned's dead and Jon is in open rebellion to Cersei.

    That won't stop them.
    Either Jon or Dany will declare himself "Jon Stark because fuck you Cersei," it will score points with Winterfell as well.

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    I would have been kinda mad if they killed Jorah or The Hound anyway. Why go through all the trouble to bring them back just to unceremoniously kill them? We clearly have story we can still explore there.

    I could maybe see a little more with Tormund. Thoros might have been the most "throw away", but at least him dying ups the stakes for Beric

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  • physi_marcphysi_marc Positron Tracker Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    If the Night King could throw magic super-javelins that can kill dragons mid-flight, why wasn't he doing that while they were trapped on the ice. Also, while they were trapped on the ice, why weren't the undead just walking underwater and then using their weapons to chip away at the ice close to the island? This is a minor quibble made jarring by the fact that we see the Night King just wreck a dragon from hundreds of yards away.

    Because the Night King wanted an Undead Dragon? Dead humans are pretty poor Mother of Dragons-bait.
    When people like The Hound or Melisandre can see confusing visions of the future it's not so hard to believe that the Night King can do the same (especially considering his ability to notice the Greenseers).

    The entire thing was a trap, a gambit where both sides thought they could outwit the other and get the upper hand.

    Why else would the Night King send out undead in a party that's conventiently small enough that Jon&Co can nab one and give the Night King an undead tracking device (the wights seem to be an extension of his will)? Why else would the White walkers appear in such numbers? Why would they wait instead of using ranged weapons or even some god damn icemagic to freeze the waters? Why would they have massive chains ready?

    The Night king knew he could get a dragon, and possibly kill Danaerys and Jon in the bargain (and he was pretty darn close).
    The Gods of Light thought they could unite the south.
    It remains to be seen who got the best of that encounter.

    This would be great if it were actually written into the show that I just watched.

    No, seriously, I wish the writers did that, because this whole situation being a trap for Jon and Dany to get the Night King a dragon is assigning a level of quality to the writing that would make this whole thing way better. It needs to be spelled out in the actual show, if that's what they're going for.

    We don't know. Because the Night King isn't a POW character.
    I do think there are hints built into the storyline.
    1. They encounter a wight-bear (an ideal scouting unit). Which would pinpoint them to the wight king and allow him to set&bait the trap.
    2. When they find the bait squad Jon wonders where the rest of them are, but given that none of them are Tywin-level schemers they don't see the possibilities.
    3. The bait-squad even conveniently has a single wight not tied to the white walker leading the group. Possibly because the Night king wants his own eyes in every unit...but you know. Possibly bait.

    I know they want the Night King to be super creepy and never talk. But if they had him say something like "yes" or "finally" or even laugh somewhat when the dragons arrived it would do a lot to drive home that it was all a trap.

    Books:
    And the very first appearances of the Others in the books has them talking and laughing.

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  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    The way they calmly handled the whole situation and didn't order their armies to scatter and hide when the dragons showed up points towards some sort of plan. We've seen in the show that the white walkers are capable of emotions such as surprise (when Jon and the walker were fighting in Hardhome, Jon's sword not shattering took them both by surprise), but here there was no sign of anything but calm deliberateness.

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  • RozRoz Boss of InternetRegistered User regular
    edited August 2017
    I'm not really buying the "walkers wanted a dragon" trap. The episode is good fun, but sloppy as all hell. By the time Daenerys shows up, our gang of adventurers is being overrun by the undead. 10 minutes later and they're all probably gone and Danny never lands her dragons.

    It all felt very rushed, and we're basically forced into figuring out some master plan to explain away the massive inconsistencies introduced by the writing.

    Roz on
    Mr Ray14357
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited August 2017
    ObiFett wrote: »
    My only issue with the show right now is that they are losing the "everyone can die" threat that used to loom over our characters.

    With Jaime nor Bronn not dying at the Loot Train to this episode not losing anyone but Thoros, its feeling a bit more Hollywood. Especially when they keep doing fakeouts, like they've recently done with Jaime, Tormund, and Jorah.

    That was never really a threat. People make out GoT to be this super grim expience where everyone you love dies and it's just not borne out by actual experience.

    If you're a primary character, not a Stark, and not actively in Cersei's way (or not within her immediate reach) then you have about as much plot-armor in GoT as you do in any other piece of fiction.

    Hell, even being a Stark doesn't really impinge upon your protagonist armor that much. Ned died to introduce the idea of a threat to every PoV character to keep the tension up. Catelyn and Robb died to perpetuate it because no protagonists had died in a while. Rickon died but honestly who gives a shit about Rickon? Meanwhile Arya, Sansa, and Bran have continually slipped through deaths fingers again and again.

    A bunch of beloved protagonists might die off in the last couple of episodes as part of the story's finale but people vastly over-state how frequently the books or the show kill off main characters.

    Jorah, Tormund, and Bronn are not main characters.

    But lets go off this list: https://genius.com/Screen-genius-list-of-game-of-thrones-deaths-annotated. I bolded characters at least as important as the above three.

    Season 1
    •Waymar Royce
    •Gared
    •Will
    •Jon Arryn
    •Catspaw assassin
    •Lady
    •Mycah
    •Ser Hugh
    •Kurleket
    •Willis Wode
    •Jory Cassel
    •Wyl
    •Heward
    •Wallen
    •Stiv
    •Vardis Egen
    •Viserys Targaryen
    •Robert Baratheon

    •Varly
    •Vayon Poole
    •Septa Mordane
    •Syrio Forel
    •Stableboy
    •Mago
    •Jafer Flowers
    •Othor
    •Qotho
    •Eddard "Ned" Stark
    •Rhaego
    •Khal Drogo
    •Mirri Maz Duur
    That's 7, but honestly not many people had time to be considering important side characters at this point. Or I am just bad at remembering names from season 1.

    Season 2
    •Maester Cressen
    •Barra
    •Rakharo
    •Yoren
    •Lommy Greenhands
    •Rennick
    •Lannister guard
    •Tortured prisoner
    •Stafford Lannister
    •Renly Baratheon
    •Emmon Cuy
    •Robar Royce
    •The Tickler
    •Rodrik Cassel
    •The High Septon
    •Amory Lorch
    •Drennan
    •Irri
    •Alton Lannister
    •Torrhen Karstark
    •The Thirteen
    •Billy
    •Jack
    •Borba
    •Harker
    •Stonesnake
    •Matthos Seaworth
    •Mandon Moore
    •Luwin
    •Pyat Pree
    •Qhorin Halfhand
    •Xaro Xhoan Daxos
    •Doreah
    •Tom
    Maybe 4? I think you are maybe right at this point.

    Season 3
    •Hoster Tully
    •Master Torturer
    •Bannen
    •Craster
    •Jeor Morment

    •Kraznys mo Nakloz
    •Griezhen mo Ullhor
    •Martyn Lannister
    •Willem Lannister
    •Karstark lookout
    •Rickard Karstark
    •Ros
    •Mero
    •Prendahl na Ghezn
    •White Walker
    •Old man
    •Orell
    •Wendel Manderly
    •Joyeuse Erenford
    •Catelyn Stark
    •Robb Stark

    •Talisa Stark
    •Grey Wind
    •Frey soldiers
    That season had 6. Again, lots of names I don't recognize.

    Season 4
    •Lowell
    •Polliver
    •Tansy
    •Axell Florent
    •Joffrey Baratheon
    •Dontos Hollard
    •Guymon
    •Olly's mother
    •Oznak zo Pahl
    •Great master
    •Karl Tanner
    •Rast
    •Locke
    •Unnamed man
    •Biter
    •Rorge
    •Lysa Arryn
    •Kegs
    •Jack Bulwer
    •Mully
    •Ralf Kenning
    •Adrack Humble
    •Oberyn Martell
    •Dongo
    •Smitty
    •Pypar
    •Thenn warg
    •Styr
    •Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg
    •Grenn
    •Cooper
    •Donnel Hill

    •Ygritte
    •Zalla
    •Jojen Reed
    •Shae
    •Tywin Lannister
    12 that season, that definitely higher than we've seen so far.

    Season 5
    •White Rat
    •Mance Rayder
    •Mossador
    •Unnamed dwarf
    •Son of the Harpy
    •Medger Cerwyn
    •Medger's brother
    •Lady Cerwyn
    •Despondent man
    •Janos Slynt
    •Merchant captain
    •Dornish guards
    •Barristan Selmy
    •Master Eaton
    •Ghita
    •Maester Aemon
    •Old servant woman
    •The Lord of Bones
    •Loboda
    •A white walker
    •Karsi
    •Shireen Baratheon
    •Hizdahr zo Loraq
    •Selyse Baratheon
    •Stannis Baratheon

    •Baratheon general
    •Myranda
    •Meryn Trant
    •Myrcella Baratheon
    •Jon Snow
    10, double digits again, I am wondering if its just because I am remembering names better as we get to the more recent seasons and I was missing names in the previous seasons?

    Season 6
    •Areo Hotah
    •Caleotte
    •Doran Martell
    •Trystane Martell
    •Balon Greyjoy
    •Roose Bolton

    •Walda Frey
    •Frey-Bolton baby
    •Shaggydog
    •Bowen Marsh
    •Othell Yarwyck
    •Alliser Thorne
    •Olly


    Episode 4: Book of the Stranger
    •Iggo
    •Akho
    •Osha
    •Khal Rhalko
    •Khal Brozho
    •Khal Qorro
    •Khal Forzho
    •Khal Moro
    •Three-eyed raven
    •Summer
    •White Walker
    •Leaf
    •Hodor
    •Brother Ray and the villagers
    •Lady Crane
    •The Blackfish
    •Lem Lemoncloak
    •The Waif
    •Rickon Stark
    •Smalljon Umber
    •Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun
    •Ramsay Bolton
    •Grand Maester Pycelle
    •Brother Lancel Lannister
    •Ser Kevan Lannister
    •Loras Tyrell
    •Margaery Tyrell
    •Mace Tyrell
    •High Sparrow

    •Tommen Baratheon
    •Lothar Frey
    •Black Walder Rivers
    •Walder Frey
    13, double digits yet again.

    Season 7 - https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Died-Game-Thrones-Season-7-43917655
    •Nymeria Sand
    •Obera Sand
    •Ellaria Sand
    •Tyene Sand
    •Olenna Tyrell
    •Randall Tarley
    •Dickon Tarley
    •Thoros
    •Benjen
    •Viserion
    10. So we are currently at double digits, meaning this season is not that far off from right in line with the others in terms of the amount of quality characters dying. Notice that list of named characters is WAAAY shorter than any other season, but that could be chalked up to the season length and the increased pace not having time to introduce as many smaller side characters.

    So I'm wrong when it comes to thinking that less characters are dying.

    I still feel like they are doing more "fakeout deaths" than what used to be on the show. But, I could be totally wrong there as well.

    ObiFett on
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  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    I am more upset about them relegating Sandor to some sort of child man with his throwing a rock at a white walker etc than I am with the timing.

    His throwing the rock doesn't make him a child man - that was a 'fuck it', or 'fuck off' or whatever else you want it to be, as long as it starts with 'fuck'.

    Whatever else might have been wrong with this episode, I don't think they did a disservice to him at all.

    But, yeah, they're absolutely working with a list of things that need to happen, given budget and time. That's how it'll be, and the only way it would ever be. This was a very, very predictable episode, broadly speaking. Whether that makes it bad is up to the individual.

    This post was sponsored by LG.

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  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    I find it hard to ascribe master plan motivations to characters in the same show that gave us Arya in Braavos last season. And whatever was going on with Dorne. The writers of this show have shown us before that they are capable of fucking up.

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am by Tyrion's plan. Literally the only thing of value he brings is his supposed insight into the Lannisters, and he isn't even close.

    If he knew his sister in the slightest, he'd know what her reaction will be to "there's a terrible threat coming to kill your enemies in the north and then coming for you." It will be to stop listening after "kill your enemies" and writhe her hands in evil glee. At best. She might also decide to agree to help you only so you let your guard down and she can Trojan horse your army with hers while you're distracted.

    Between this and getting wrecked by Jaime, I'm rooting more and more for Tyrion to get some real comeuppance for his persistent failure.

    Smrtnik
  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    My only issue with the show right now is that they are losing the "everyone can die" threat that used to loom over our characters.

    With Jaime nor Bronn not dying at the Loot Train to this episode not losing anyone but Thoros, its feeling a bit more Hollywood. Especially when they keep doing fakeouts, like they've recently done with Jaime, Tormund, and Jorah.

    That was never really a threat. People make out GoT to be this super grim expience where everyone you love dies and it's just not borne out by actual experience.

    If you're a primary character, not a Stark, and not actively in Cersei's way (or not within her immediate reach) then you have about as much plot-armor in GoT as you do in any other piece of fiction.

    Hell, even being a Stark doesn't really impinge upon your protagonist armor that much. Ned died to introduce the idea of a threat to every PoV character to keep the tension up. Catelyn and Robb died to perpetuate it because no protagonists had died in a while. Rickon died but honestly who gives a shit about Rickon? Meanwhile Arya, Sansa, and Bran have continually slipped through deaths fingers again and again.

    A bunch of beloved protagonists might die off in the last couple of episodes as part of the story's finale but people vastly over-state how frequently the books or the show kill off main characters.

    It's been brought up elsewhere that the show not having characters designated as POV characters like the books and in many cases turning formerly minor characters into major ones does a lot to change the perceptions of who is more vulnerable vs who is less likely to die. Not to say that the books haven't occasionally killed off a POV character too.

    But there's also the divide between people who view the work as a complete deconstruction of heroic medieval fantasy vs. a reconstruction of it. The former tend to view the series with a more nihilistic tone.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    He's also a brilliant administrator, although they don't show that these days.
    GoT has grown too big for its own good. There is no longer room for exposes like the Tywin-Arya meetings in Season 2.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    I maintain what both the book and the show did is play a good game of three-card monte about who the main characters were early on. It's not that no one had plot armor, it's that we were misdirected well about who did.

    Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon, Dany, Lannister siblings. This is their story.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    I have kind of felt like she's been acting weirdly mellowlike and distanced. Like kinda a lot different from even the most previous season - like someone in the director team decided to change something.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    I have kind of felt like she's been acting weirdly mellowlike and distanced. Like kinda a lot different from even the most previous season - like someone in the director team decided to change something.

    The last season ended with her leaving the House of Black and White, after supposedly killing the Waif and telling Jaqen to fuck off.

    Of course she's different. Her situation has changed dramatically.

    Make. Time.
    Elvenshae
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    He's also a brilliant administrator, although they don't show that these days.
    GoT has grown too big for its own good. There is no longer room for exposes like the Tywin-Arya meetings in Season 2.

    Too many characters.

    Considering they wrote off like 13 or so named characters last season, that's impressive bloat.

    Make. Time.
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    Everyone is acting in character. We're freaking out because it's aimed at characters we know, and sometimes even love.

    Sansa has become a manipulative politician trained by both Cersei and Littlefinger, but we freak out when she questions John running headlong into what she sees as a mistake.

    Dany is an arrogant, well meaning young woman who is quite happy to burn alive those she believes harm the innocent, but while burning everyone from wizards to Khals was just fine, burning a pair of Nobles who refused to give her any choice is monstrous.

    Arya is a psychologically damaged killing machine who is quick to hate and ponderously slow to forgive, to the point that even the faceless men couldn't knock the grudges she has out of her, but we're aghast when she's mistrustful of her sister who sided with Joffrey, lead to Micah's death and forced her to give up her direwolf.

    Nothing has changed. These characters are exactly who they have always been. The stakes are just a hell of a lot higher now.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    I have kind of felt like she's been acting weirdly mellowlike and distanced. Like kinda a lot different from even the most previous season - like someone in the director team decided to change something.

    The last season ended with her leaving the House of Black and White, after supposedly killing the Waif and telling Jaqen to fuck off.

    Of course she's different. Her situation has changed dramatically.

    Yeah I know, but that change seems weird if it happened with a snap of fingers just at the point where she left the House. Not over her time there. It feels like they decided it happened immediately at the start of this season, which is why it feels weird to me the way it's presented.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Honk wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    I have kind of felt like she's been acting weirdly mellowlike and distanced. Like kinda a lot different from even the most previous season - like someone in the director team decided to change something.

    The last season ended with her leaving the House of Black and White, after supposedly killing the Waif and telling Jaqen to fuck off.

    Of course she's different. Her situation has changed dramatically.

    Yeah I know, but that change seems weird if it happened with a snap of fingers just at the point where she left the House. Not over her time there. It feels like they decided it happened immediately at the start of this season, which is why it feels weird to me the way it's presented.

    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    jungleroomx on
    Make. Time.
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Nothing has changed. These characters are exactly who they have always been. The stakes are just a hell of a lot higher now.

    Eh. All of them have had character growth and they're not exactly who they were, but who they are now is a natural result of their experiences.

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  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    It definitely felt like Arya was trying to teach Sansa the right way to handle Littlefinger, and the fact that she was cared for by cold killers has inhibited her ability to do it.

    I mean, if she wanted Sansa dead, she'd be dead already.

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    She's not a sociopathic monster.
    She's gone from a scared girl with PTSD to a competent&lethal girl with a complex trauma profile including PTSD and defence mechanisms related to PTSD.

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  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    Strictly speaking, we don't know whether NK knew about dragons at all. Waiting for Jon and the others to starve is a perfectly valid strategy, and only really confirms that the cost of producing an ice lance is non-negligible.

    I'm interested in learning more about the analogous relationship between raising the dead and warging, though if the Hound's stone is any indication it appears that the undead have some measure of autonomy.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    I keep reading NK as North Korea and it's really making this thread surreal.

    Make. Time.
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  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can't really agree that Arya is acting out of character. How many nights did she spend chanting the names of those she planned to kill? Her time without sight? The pie she baked?

    At this point she's done playing, is what I'd say.

    Everyone is acting in character. We're freaking out because it's aimed at characters we know, and sometimes even love.

    Sansa has become a manipulative politician trained by both Cersei and Littlefinger, but we freak out when she questions John running headlong into what she sees as a mistake.

    Dany is an arrogant, well meaning young woman who is quite happy to burn alive those she believes harm the innocent, but while burning everyone from wizards to Khals was just fine, burning a pair of Nobles who refused to give her any choice is monstrous.

    Arya is a psychologically damaged killing machine who is quick to hate and ponderously slow to forgive, to the point that even the faceless men couldn't knock the grudges she has out of her, but we're aghast when she's mistrustful of her sister who sided with Joffrey, lead to Micah's death and forced her to give up her direwolf.

    Nothing has changed. These characters are exactly who they have always been. The stakes are just a hell of a lot higher now.

    I don't even know what plot armor and fake-out scenes even mean. Like if you described them in dictionary form I'd understand what you're writing but I don't know how to identify it on screen while watching a show. Any description would pretty much be "The people telling the story is trying to make you feel stuff, and that's fake". I mean even when they do kill off main characters it's exploitative and done get a rise out of you, which is terrible as we all know. The second the stories are clear and tells you everything they're dumb, the second there's nuance or you don't get everything spelled out for you it's contrived. When there's no foreshadowing it's deux ex machina, when there is it's obvious and boring etc etc.

    Not to say there's nothing to critique, but a lot of internet discussions about these shows have really weird critiques. I would also have loved if they stretched the stories out for at least 2 more seasons, but it turns out that isn't feasible. I have to say the battle scenes have been really good lately, much better than their earlier cringeworthy duels. Battle of the bastards was amazing, and Tormunds fight in the last ep was gut wrenching which is fucking amazing when you think about how tv show violence typically is like.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    She's not a sociopathic monster.
    She's gone from a scared girl with PTSD to a competent&lethal girl with a complex trauma profile including PTSD and defence mechanisms related to PTSD.

    As much as I understand that subject, complex defense mechanisms don't prompt you to bake people in pies.

    Make. Time.
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Speculation of how next episode will go, total guesswork:
    Cercei sees the wight, believes it, doesn't care. If she can't win, everyone dies. Jamie objects to this, especially citing their baby. That may or may not be real, either way fueling his encore performance.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »

    So I'm wrong when it comes to thinking that less characters are dying.

    [Stannis]
    fewer

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    She's not a sociopathic monster.
    She's gone from a scared girl with PTSD to a competent&lethal girl with a complex trauma profile including PTSD and defence mechanisms related to PTSD.

    As much as I understand that subject, complex defense mechanisms don't prompt you to bake people in pies.

    Let they who has not murdered the children of their enemy, processed their carcasses into meat pies and fed said pies to said enemy cast the first stone

    Hobnail on
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    My only issue with the show right now is that they are losing the "everyone can die" threat that used to loom over our characters.

    With Jaime nor Bronn not dying at the Loot Train to this episode not losing anyone but Thoros, its feeling a bit more Hollywood. Especially when they keep doing fakeouts, like they've recently done with Jaime, Tormund, and Jorah.

    That was never really a threat. People make out GoT to be this super grim expience where everyone you love dies and it's just not borne out by actual experience.

    If you're a primary character, not a Stark, and not actively in Cersei's way (or not within her immediate reach) then you have about as much plot-armor in GoT as you do in any other piece of fiction.

    Hell, even being a Stark doesn't really impinge upon your protagonist armor that much. Ned died to introduce the idea of a threat to every PoV character to keep the tension up. Catelyn and Robb died to perpetuate it because no protagonists had died in a while. Rickon died but honestly who gives a shit about Rickon? Meanwhile Arya, Sansa, and Bran have continually slipped through deaths fingers again and again.

    A bunch of beloved protagonists might die off in the last couple of episodes as part of the story's finale but people vastly over-state how frequently the books or the show kill off main characters.

    Jorah, Tormund, and Bronn are not main characters.

    But lets go off this list: https://genius.com/Screen-genius-list-of-game-of-thrones-deaths-annotated. I bolded characters at least as important as the above three.

    Season 1
    •Waymar Royce
    •Gared
    •Will
    •Jon Arryn
    •Catspaw assassin
    •Lady
    •Mycah
    •Ser Hugh
    •Kurleket
    •Willis Wode
    •Jory Cassel
    •Wyl
    •Heward
    •Wallen
    •Stiv
    •Vardis Egen
    •Viserys Targaryen
    •Robert Baratheon

    •Varly
    •Vayon Poole
    •Septa Mordane
    •Syrio Forel
    •Stableboy
    •Mago
    •Jafer Flowers
    •Othor
    •Qotho
    •Eddard "Ned" Stark
    •Rhaego
    •Khal Drogo
    •Mirri Maz Duur
    That's 7, but honestly not many people had time to be considering important side characters at this point. Or I am just bad at remembering names from season 1.

    Season 2
    •Maester Cressen
    •Barra
    •Rakharo
    •Yoren
    •Lommy Greenhands
    •Rennick
    •Lannister guard
    •Tortured prisoner
    •Stafford Lannister
    •Renly Baratheon
    •Emmon Cuy
    •Robar Royce
    •The Tickler
    •Rodrik Cassel
    •The High Septon
    •Amory Lorch
    •Drennan
    •Irri
    •Alton Lannister
    •Torrhen Karstark
    •The Thirteen
    •Billy
    •Jack
    •Borba
    •Harker
    •Stonesnake
    •Matthos Seaworth
    •Mandon Moore
    •Luwin
    •Pyat Pree
    •Qhorin Halfhand
    •Xaro Xhoan Daxos
    •Doreah
    •Tom
    Maybe 4? I think you are maybe right at this point.

    Season 3
    •Hoster Tully
    •Master Torturer
    •Bannen
    •Craster
    •Jeor Morment

    •Kraznys mo Nakloz
    •Griezhen mo Ullhor
    •Martyn Lannister
    •Willem Lannister
    •Karstark lookout
    •Rickard Karstark
    •Ros
    •Mero
    •Prendahl na Ghezn
    •White Walker
    •Old man
    •Orell
    •Wendel Manderly
    •Joyeuse Erenford
    •Catelyn Stark
    •Robb Stark

    •Talisa Stark
    •Grey Wind
    •Frey soldiers
    That season had 6. Again, lots of names I don't recognize.

    Season 4
    •Lowell
    •Polliver
    •Tansy
    •Axell Florent
    •Joffrey Baratheon
    •Dontos Hollard
    •Guymon
    •Olly's mother
    •Oznak zo Pahl
    •Great master
    •Karl Tanner
    •Rast
    •Locke
    •Unnamed man
    •Biter
    •Rorge
    •Lysa Arryn
    •Kegs
    •Jack Bulwer
    •Mully
    •Ralf Kenning
    •Adrack Humble
    •Oberyn Martell
    •Dongo
    •Smitty
    •Pypar
    •Thenn warg
    •Styr
    •Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg
    •Grenn
    •Cooper
    •Donnel Hill

    •Ygritte
    •Zalla
    •Jojen Reed
    •Shae
    •Tywin Lannister
    12 that season, that definitely higher than we've seen so far.

    Season 5
    •White Rat
    •Mance Rayder
    •Mossador
    •Unnamed dwarf
    •Son of the Harpy
    •Medger Cerwyn
    •Medger's brother
    •Lady Cerwyn
    •Despondent man
    •Janos Slynt
    •Merchant captain
    •Dornish guards
    •Barristan Selmy
    •Master Eaton
    •Ghita
    •Maester Aemon
    •Old servant woman
    •The Lord of Bones
    •Loboda
    •A white walker
    •Karsi
    •Shireen Baratheon
    •Hizdahr zo Loraq
    •Selyse Baratheon
    •Stannis Baratheon

    •Baratheon general
    •Myranda
    •Meryn Trant
    •Myrcella Baratheon
    •Jon Snow
    10, double digits again, I am wondering if its just because I am remembering names better as we get to the more recent seasons and I was missing names in the previous seasons?

    Season 6
    •Areo Hotah
    •Caleotte
    •Doran Martell
    •Trystane Martell
    •Balon Greyjoy
    •Roose Bolton

    •Walda Frey
    •Frey-Bolton baby
    •Shaggydog
    •Bowen Marsh
    •Othell Yarwyck
    •Alliser Thorne
    •Olly


    Episode 4: Book of the Stranger
    •Iggo
    •Akho
    •Osha
    •Khal Rhalko
    •Khal Brozho
    •Khal Qorro
    •Khal Forzho
    •Khal Moro
    •Three-eyed raven
    •Summer
    •White Walker
    •Leaf
    •Hodor
    •Brother Ray and the villagers
    •Lady Crane
    •The Blackfish
    •Lem Lemoncloak
    •The Waif
    •Rickon Stark
    •Smalljon Umber
    •Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun
    •Ramsay Bolton
    •Grand Maester Pycelle
    •Brother Lancel Lannister
    •Ser Kevan Lannister
    •Loras Tyrell
    •Margaery Tyrell
    •Mace Tyrell
    •High Sparrow

    •Tommen Baratheon
    •Lothar Frey
    •Black Walder Rivers
    •Walder Frey
    13, double digits yet again.

    Season 7 - https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Who-Died-Game-Thrones-Season-7-43917655
    •Nymeria Sand
    •Obera Sand
    •Ellaria Sand
    •Tyene Sand
    •Olenna Tyrell
    •Randall Tarley
    •Dickon Tarley
    •Thoros
    •Benjen
    •Viserion
    10. So we are currently at double digits, meaning this season is not that far off from right in line with the others in terms of the amount of quality characters dying. Notice that list of named characters is WAAAY shorter than any other season, but that could be chalked up to the season length and the increased pace not having time to introduce as many smaller side characters.

    So I'm wrong when it comes to thinking that less characters are dying.

    I still feel like they are doing more "fakeout deaths" than what used to be on the show. But, I could be totally wrong there as well.

    You forgot to bold Yoren in season 2. He was pretty important.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    I keep reading NK as North Korea and it's really making this thread surreal.

    We've seen NK demonstrate long range weapon capabilities this past Sunday. We know that NK has been actively pursuing being able to field a more destructive payload in its arsenal. And by the end of the night on Sunday it became apparent that NK has a longer range weapon platform of currently unknown power, but believed to be significant, capable of striking another kingdom.

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  • BobbleBobble Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    I keep reading NK as North Korea and it's really making this thread surreal.

    We've seen NK demonstrate long range weapon capabilities this past Sunday. We know that NK has been actively pursuing being able to field a more destructive payload in its arsenal. And by the end of the night on Sunday it became apparent that NK has a longer range weapon platform of currently unknown power, but believed to be significant, capable of striking another kingdom.

    Plus we have a leader of a rival nation (who's a bit obsessed with his border wall) has been completely unable to resist provoking NK instead of ignoring NK like everyone has been content to do for quite some time.

    Bobble on
  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    Relating the overall pace and plot of the shows to the books:
    It will probably be to a somewhat lesser degree because of the nature of the medium, but I expect a similarly jarring pace to the final two books if we ever get them.

    This was originally supposed to be a story in three acts. Lannister-Stark Civil War. Then Dragons. Then Ice Zombies. Martin got lost in the woods and fell in love with his worldbuilding, so we're through 5+ (including preview chapters)/7 and just barely wrapping up Act 1. He's going to have to rush through Acts 2 and 3 simultaneously and give them significantly less time than he did 1.

    So what I'm saying is: It's not entirely the show's fault we have to fly through this stuff and have teleporters and shit.

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    She's not a sociopathic monster.
    She's gone from a scared girl with PTSD to a competent&lethal girl with a complex trauma profile including PTSD and defence mechanisms related to PTSD.

    As much as I understand that subject, complex defense mechanisms don't prompt you to bake people in pies.

    Revenge fantasies are among the most common symptoms of PTSD. Combine it with emotional numbness, hypervigiliance and a deeply held underlying anger...not to mention social factors.
    I mean. She lives in a world where ruthlessness and extreme violence is the norm.

    Lets sum up her history.
    She's a terribly traumatized girl (her father and a number of friends have been murdered before her eyes) who is on the run and suffering from revenge fantasies, hypervigiliance and insomnia. Then she meets her rolemodels for how to never end up in that situation ever again, Tywin Lannister, Jaquen H'ghar and The Hound. One is a ruthless tyrant who has not once, but several times, murdered entire families to prove how ruthless he is. Another is a shapeshifting assassin serving a deathgod of revenge&murder. The third is an emotionally stunted, hyperviolent thug who is also suffering from PTSD and will not hesitate to gut associates and strangers if it serves his needs. Yet they're also people who have found their place in society. Who appear confident, at ease and secure.

    And we wonder WHY she enacts elaborate revenge plots when she gains the means to do so?!? Hell. Frey-Pie is her personal Rains of Castamere.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    Well, yes, she's now no longer a scared girl but a sociopathic monster looking for reasons to kill people, which she is fully capable of.

    And we saw this attitude from her last season as well, when she was talking to the sailors about getting passage home, right before getting shanked. And before that even in S2 with her conversations with Tywin.

    Hell, even her reason for hating the Brotherhood was because they didn't kill the Hound.

    She's always been a bit cold.

    She's not a sociopathic monster.
    She's gone from a scared girl with PTSD to a competent&lethal girl with a complex trauma profile including PTSD and defence mechanisms related to PTSD.

    As much as I understand that subject, complex defense mechanisms don't prompt you to bake people in pies.

    Revenge fantasies are among the most common symptoms of PTSD. Combine it with emotional numbness, hypervigiliance and a deeply held underlying anger...not to mention social factors.

    I know.

    But it's also a constant struggle on finding out what is a threat and what is not a threat, which is why I enjoyed her sitting down and looking at the Lannister weapons and reading their faces, because I understand that.

    But it still doesn't prompt murderous rampages. PTSD may end with emotional numbness, but it doesn't make people forget emotional bonds towards other humans completely. PTSD is reactive.

    Plotting out the mass murder of an entire house that she had to go out of her way to get to is not a PTSD-type thing. Revenge fantasies are one thing, actually acting them out is completely another.
    I mean. She lives in a world where ruthlessness and extreme violence is the norm.

    Lets sum up her history.
    She's a terribly traumatized girl (her father and a number of friends have been murdered before her eyes) who is on the run and suffering from revenge fantasies, hypervigiliance and insomnia. Then she meets her rolemodels for how to never end up in that situation ever again, Tywin Lannister, Jaquen H'ghar and The Hound. One is a ruthless tyrant who has not once, but several times, murdered entire families to prove how ruthless he is. Another is a shapeshifting assassin serving a deathgod of revenge&murder. The third is an emotionally stunted, hyperviolent thug who is also suffering from PTSD and will not hesitate to gut associates and strangers if it serves his needs. Yet they're also people who have found their place in society. Who appear confident, at ease and secure.

    And we wonder WHY she enacts elaborate revenge plots when she gains the means to do so?!? Hell. Frey-Pie is her personal Rains of Castamere.

    Yes, she commits horrible things. A lot of people do in this world, but even more don't.

    Sandor saw the dead bodies of these people he robbed and felt remorse for it. Arya hasn't felt remorse since her father died. She maintains some emotional connections with people and CAN socialize, but it's difficult. She's cold, not fearful or reactive, and that requires some distance from human emotional bonding with "others."

    Girl was already sociopathic back in the day, now she's got extreme defense mechanisms on top of that.

    Make. Time.
  • AphostileAphostile Registered User regular
    I do love these Burlington Bar videos but man do those three girls in the front over-act.

    Someone says something mundane -> hand over wide open mouth while hitting their friends.

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  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Speculation of how next episode will go, total guesswork:
    Cercei sees the wight, believes it, doesn't care. If she can't win, everyone dies. Jamie objects to this, especially citing their baby. That may or may not be real, either way fueling his encore performance.
    I think it will be a bit more Cersei-ian. Cersei plays along as horrified by the threat the wight and the White Walkers pose, agrees to an armistice and pledges support. Then attempts to stab everyone in the back before the war with the Walkers starts. Jaime horrified at her threat to humanity, realizes that she is a monster, and becomes a kinslayer. Though this probably won't all happen next episode, but will play out next season.

    Simpsonia on
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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Speculation of how next episode will go, total guesswork:
    Cercei sees the wight, believes it, doesn't care. If she can't win, everyone dies. Jamie objects to this, especially citing their baby. That may or may not be real, either way fueling his encore performance.
    I think it will be a bit more Cersei-ian. Cersei plays along as horrified by the threat the wight and the White Walkers pose, agrees to an armistice and pledges support. Then attempts to stab everyone in the back before the war with the Walkers starts. Jaime horrified at her threat to humanity, realizes that she is a monster, and becomes a kinslayer.

    I can't see Jaime killing her over that right then. She's gonna have to be about to actually perform a horrific act for Jaime to have to kill her and stop her. So like maybe Jaime goes with everyone to fight the White Walkers. And during the said war, Jaime realizes how awesome Jon and Dany are. Fighting side by side with them and all that. They get back and Cersei will have them captured and thank Jaime for keeping tabs on it all. Jaime is then gonna have to kill Cersei to prevent her from killing them.

    Or instead of them being captured, Jaime returns to Cersei after the war, tries to convince her to step aside (because Dragons). She says no and has a solid plan to kill Dany and Jon in the upcoming conflict. Jaime doesn't have time to warn them and has to kill Cersie right as she is about to kill Dany and Jon.

    Or the classic, Dany and Jon come back from the war and turn their sights on Cersei. She starts losing and threatens that if she can't have King's Landing, no one can. Putting a ton of wildfire under the city. Jaime has to kill her to stop it from going off (probably too late since we've seen Dany's vision of an exploded throne room). Jaime is choking the life out of Cersei on the iron throne as we see everything go up in flames.

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    When you get down to it, turning a whole human corpse into meat pie ingredients is a lot of work, like Arya spent a long time elbow deep in dead bodies with a knife and a cleaver at least, probably like a saw too, like hours of hard human corpse butchering

    jungleroomx
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