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[WH40K] The FAQ has arrived

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Posts

  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    When I got curious about Warhammer Quest I saw a guy on ebay had a bundle with Silver Tower, Overkill Deathwatch and gangs of commorragh for 250
    I thought why not? the first two look interesting and I used to play Eldar back then and was interest in the Dark Eldar {finding out more about them lead me to the Ynnari and back into 40k ]
    But he tossed in execution force for free {the funny thing is we have played that one a few times}
    So with the two copies of Dark Vengeance and Execution Force I have a ton of cultists just I am tempted to get the Maelstrom of Gore and make a meat grinder of a Chaos force

    TheColonel
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I love that using Malus Codicium removes Unquestionable Wisdom. It feels like cheekiness.

    If Eisenhorn dies while the Daemonhost is active the host should be placed under the control of the opponent.

    Kadoken
  • NorgothNorgoth Registered User regular
    I already have 19 cultists, and only need one more to be able to field both the heavy flamer and the heavy stunner.

    But today I saw these and now I'm torn.

    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Kairic-Acolytes

    Karmic Acolytes are cool but it’s worth pointing out they are significantly bigger than cultists. They come on 32mm bases.


    Playing in a two day tournament this weekend, and I’m bringing this
    ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [46 PL, 873pts] ++

    + Fast Attack +

    Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe

    Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe

    + HQ +

    Daemon Prince of Nurgle [9 PL, 180pts]: 6. Arch-Contaminator, Blades of Putrefaction, Fugaris' Helm, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings

    Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: Miasma of Pestilence, Putrescent Vitality

    + Troops +

    Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 44pts]
    . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
    . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
    . Cultist Champion: Autogun

    Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 44pts]
    . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
    . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
    . Cultist Champion: Autogun

    Poxwalkers [6 PL, 114pts]: 19x Poxwalker

    ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [20 PL, 382pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Necrosius the Undying [7 PL, 120pts]: Curse of the Leper, Miasma of Pestilence, Plague Wind

    + Dedicated Transport +

    Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter

    + Elites +

    Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]

    Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]

    Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]

    Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]

    ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [30 PL, 544pts] ++

    + HQ +

    Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

    + Heavy Support +

    Chaos Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon
    . Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

    Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy Slugger

    Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy Slugger

    + No Force Org Slot +

    Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

    ++ Total: [103 PL, 1919pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe

    81 point left for reinforcements, will likely be summoning a Poxbringer but can potentially bring in some troops of some kind of needed.

    Ideally I would want two more PBCs to replace the drones but I don’t have the time to finish them before the weekend. Still this list has all my favourite things (cultist to poxwalker engine, plaguespitters, Foul blightspawn!) so should be fun.

  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    Looks like a good list. I still have a narrative mission this week to play and then normal games later.

    So Saturday was the first time really getting my possessed somewhere and was pretty impressed verse imperium thanks to that death to the false emperor and an icon of excess. They wiped two squishy units which is what I expect and then tied up more and absorb the fall back fire because it is guard. I am curious to see how they do in the story mission.

    I am still confused by the cultist bomb Lawrence talks about from LVO. Mathhammer it, its 40 cultist and 3 cp to kill maybe a unit of marines with their guns? I can do it for cheaper with havocs and plasma. I don't know. I guess it works.

    03x29di.png
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    I have a box of Deathshroud, but haven't had someone build and paint them for me yet. Waiting for my Mortarion to get painted and built, so it might be a bit.

    They seem okay, but they can't keep up with Morty and they seem melee focused, so not sure how good they are really. You'd have to deepstrike them after he moves. Them taking hits and saving on their 2+ seems okay, but anything shooting at Morty would probably have massive -AP anyways, so their invuln is 4+?

    I dunno.

    As for Blightlord Terminators, I have some painted ones on their way to my house because I was desperate for some deep strike shenanigans, but I dunno how good they are either. Using them for variety seems good, but Foetid Bloat Drones and PBCs just seem too good by comparison.

    Both units seem too slow and too expensive.

    Bizazedo on
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  • NorgothNorgoth Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Looks like a good list. I still have a narrative mission this week to play and then normal games later.

    So Saturday was the first time really getting my possessed somewhere and was pretty impressed verse imperium thanks to that death to the false emperor and an icon of excess. They wiped two squishy units which is what I expect and then tied up more and absorb the fall back fire because it is guard. I am curious to see how they do in the story mission.

    I am still confused by the cultist bomb Lawrence talks about from LVO. Mathhammer it, its 40 cultist and 3 cp to kill maybe a unit of marines with their guns? I can do it for cheaper with havocs and plasma. I don't know. I guess it works.


    It’s less the killing more the fact that your screen is in the middle of the board taking up a huge amount of space. The killing is a bonus. Also it’s for killing other screens, rather than marines.

    Moridin889
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I played against some deathshroud last night. I just kept a cultist screen in front and fell back 6" a turn away from them in an ever increasing bubble while shooting them with noise marines. Because of their cataphractii armor they are super kiteable if you don't get that first deep strike charge off.

    I'd never thought of kiting being a thing in 40k.

    The consensus seems to be slow and pricey.

    Poor Termies.... they look so good.

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
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  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I played against some deathshroud last night. I just kept a cultist screen in front and fell back 6" a turn away from them in an ever increasing bubble while shooting them with noise marines. Because of their cataphractii armor they are super kiteable if you don't get that first deep strike charge off.

    I'd never thought of kiting being a thing in 40k.

    The consensus seems to be slow and pricey.

    Poor Termies.... they look so good.

    Kiting in previous editions was much harder as it messed up a lot of weapons to move. Now everything, even heavy weapons, can move and shoot. Noise marines have assault weapons so you can run and shoot as well making them good at kiting.

    I think even I get into the plant your feet and shoot mode but really the game is much much more mobile than when I started to play.

    03x29di.png
  • NorgothNorgoth Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I played against some deathshroud last night. I just kept a cultist screen in front and fell back 6" a turn away from them in an ever increasing bubble while shooting them with noise marines. Because of their cataphractii armor they are super kiteable if you don't get that first deep strike charge off.

    I'd never thought of kiting being a thing in 40k.

    The consensus seems to be slow and pricey.

    Poor Termies.... they look so good.

    Kiting in previous editions was much harder as it messed up a lot of weapons to move. Now everything, even heavy weapons, can move and shoot. Noise marines have assault weapons so you can run and shoot as well making them good at kiting.

    I think even I get into the plant your feet and shoot mode but really the game is much much more mobile than when I started to play.

    In the doubles tournament I recently won we locked up game 3 because my opponent took Yvraine, measured 14.5” inches my blightspawn, states she was 14.5” with a smug look, which quickly dissapeared on my turn I went “blightspawn advances”.

    That same game we capped an objective by charging one unit with a Chaos Lord and a daemon prince, resolved the lord first, wiped them out and then the price could consolidate (as it charged) the 3” it needed towards the objective.

    Khraul
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I love that using Malus Codicium removes Unquestionable Wisdom. It feels like cheekiness.

    If Eisenhorn dies while the Daemonhost is active the host should be placed under the control of the opponent.

    Depends on what he is fighting as the Grey knights would not be fond of getting it

  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    The daemonhost could just be randomly controlled by the original player using dice rolls, similar to the enemies in Warhammer Quest. It could become a standalone army that is hostile to both players and simply attacks whoever is closest so it becomes a liability to both sides.

    73CQcJZ.png
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Brainleech wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I love that using Malus Codicium removes Unquestionable Wisdom. It feels like cheekiness.

    If Eisenhorn dies while the Daemonhost is active the host should be placed under the control of the opponent.

    Depends on what he is fighting as the Grey knights would not be fond of getting it

    Weren't daemonhosts part of the GK Ward-dex? Besides that though, I'd think of it as u der the control of the opposing player, not the side. The important thing is that the uncontrolled host goes on a roaring game rampage of revenge against its captors. Just going poof is weaksauce.

  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Starting to feel like I got a bit robbed in the tournament I went to yesterday. I tabled one of my opponents and another conceded, which are both crushing victories, yet I didn't finish in the top three behind players who won the same number of games except based on victory points for... reasons? I've got no idea how the end result was worked out.

    I shouldn't really be irritated by this but it turns out that an overall badly run event is kind of frustrating to attend.

    Auralynx
  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing to Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    Opinions on deathshroud and blightlord terminators?

    This list ...

    ++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [67 PL, 1248pts] ++

    + No Force Org Slot +

    Gametype

    + HQ +

    Lord of Contagion [7 PL, 117pts]: Manreaper

    Malignant Plaguecaster [6 PL, 110pts]: Gift of Contagion, Miasma of Pestilence

    + Troops +

    Plague Marines [10 PL, 165pts]: Icon of Despair
    . Plague Champion: Boltgun, Plaguesword, Power fist
    . 4x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
    . Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
    . Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Blight launcher

    Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

    Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker

    + Elites +

    Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]

    Noxious Blightbringer [4 PL, 65pts]: Plasma pistol

    + Fast Attack +

    Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe

    Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe

    Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe

    ++ Total: [67 PL, 1248pts] ++

    Created with BattleScribe
    is basically what I own so far. Going to grab some PBC's at some point but curious about termies I can deep strike with the Lord.

    The Deathshroud want to be in a Landraider, end of story. Don't forget to keep a CP open to reroll their charge. They only have a 4" move, but you get 3" disembarking from the LR, so that's 7" plus their charge 2d6 charge.

    Blightlords are neat in that because of the army trait, they can rapid fire 4 shots with their combibolters at 18" which is 16 bolter shots and then the Reaper Autocannon. If you are ok with them being pricier, you can give them combiplasma guns which they could also rapid fire at 18". Deep Strike them close to midfield, in cover and/or an objective and they become a big threat that is difficult to shift.

    Khraul
  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    Starting to feel like I got a bit robbed in the tournament I went to yesterday. I tabled one of my opponents and another conceded, which are both crushing victories, yet I didn't finish in the top three behind players who won the same number of games except based on victory points for... reasons? I've got no idea how the end result was worked out.

    I shouldn't really be irritated by this but it turns out that an overall badly run event is kind of frustrating to attend.

    Where they using ITC rules or just normal missions? ITC has a set up based around points scored during the game and I think a lot of tournaments have adopted that. So even if tabled you get a bit of points. It forces some objective based gaming.

    Though even doing that, badly run stuff is always less fun.

    03x29di.png
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Burnage wrote: »
    Starting to feel like I got a bit robbed in the tournament I went to yesterday. I tabled one of my opponents and another conceded, which are both crushing victories, yet I didn't finish in the top three behind players who won the same number of games except based on victory points for... reasons? I've got no idea how the end result was worked out.

    I shouldn't really be irritated by this but it turns out that an overall badly run event is kind of frustrating to attend.

    Where they using ITC rules or just normal missions? ITC has a set up based around points scored during the game and I think a lot of tournaments have adopted that. So even if tabled you get a bit of points. It forces some objective based gaming.

    Though even doing that, badly run stuff is always less fun.

    Just normal missions. It seemed pretty thrown together on the whole; there wasn't even any kind of event pack put out for it which feels like it should be an expected standard?

  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    Does this Eisenhorn release mean that GW will start selling daemonhost models again? They took them off of the store a while back and they seem pretty anal about the updating rules for models they no longer sell thing.

    73CQcJZ.png
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    With the Made to order {aka what we have left in storage} for Necromunda they said Mad Donna and Kal Jerico will be in it but what else they show the begger scum from back then I wonder if they will offer the bounty hunters and scum from that era as well?

  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    It's a special model for the black library anniversary so I wouldn't get my hopes up.

  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    Well they might bring back Daemonhosts and the inquisitors when their codex comes out. I wonder if they bundle the sisters and others into one codex

  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing to Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Nah. Give Inquisitors their own book, let Sisters stand on their own

    ForceVoidKhraulvalhalla130
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Nah. Give Inquisitors their own book, let Sisters stand on their own

    I would buy an inquisition codex right now

    Khraul on
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    Gamertag - Khraul
    PSN - Razide6
    ForceVoidvalhalla130
  • GR_ZombieGR_Zombie Krillin It Registered User regular
    Due to a combo of card draws, the Fist of Vengence, the Crimson Fists Warlord trait, and some fantastic rolls, my Primaris Lieutenant splattered a ten-man IG squad with one punch. That boy is getting a name.

    04xkcuvaav19.png
    Wolf of Dresden
  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    GR_Zombie wrote: »
    Due to a combo of card draws, the Fist of Vengence, the Crimson Fists Warlord trait, and some fantastic rolls, my Primaris Lieutenant splattered a ten-man IG squad with one punch. That boy is getting a name.

    My brain had to do the math for this.

    Damn the dice gods loved you.

    03x29di.png
    GR_Zombie
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    So, how does Forge World stuff work with codexes. I.e., Leviathan Dreadnoughts look cool as hell to me. I'd like one or two.

    I saw the FAQ made them Helbrute's, but how does it work with Battleforged style traits? Say, for Death Guard, it allows me to give them Nurgle and Death Guard. Is that enough?

    XBL: Bizazedo
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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    I would buy a Sisters codex right now.

    FroThulhu
  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    So, how does Forge World stuff work with codexes. I.e., Leviathan Dreadnoughts look cool as hell to me. I'd like one or two.

    I saw the FAQ made them Helbrute's, but how does it work with Battleforged style traits? Say, for Death Guard, it allows me to give them Nurgle and Death Guard. Is that enough?

    All the forgeworld units just have faction keywords, like any other unit datasheet (Chaos, Heretic Astartes, <Legion>)
    Then there was a FAQ saying that if they can take the apropriate mark of chaos, they can be included in cult legions. So yeah, you can take nurgle deathguard goodies no problem.

    website_header.jpg
  • NorgothNorgoth Registered User regular
    McGibs wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    So, how does Forge World stuff work with codexes. I.e., Leviathan Dreadnoughts look cool as hell to me. I'd like one or two.

    I saw the FAQ made them Helbrute's, but how does it work with Battleforged style traits? Say, for Death Guard, it allows me to give them Nurgle and Death Guard. Is that enough?

    All the forgeworld units just have faction keywords, like any other unit datasheet (Chaos, Heretic Astartes, <Legion>)
    Then there was a FAQ saying that if they can take the apropriate mark of chaos, they can be included in cult legions. So yeah, you can take nurgle deathguard goodies no problem.

    For extra points the Death Guard legion trait applies because they are hell brutes. A lot of the leviathan gun options real nice being able to move and fire. Those Grav flux are even scarier when you can move 8” and fire them 18” on 2+

  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Norgoth wrote: »

    For extra points the Death Guard legion trait applies because they are hell brutes. A lot of the leviathan gun options real nice being able to move and fire. Those Grav flux are even scarier when you can move 8” and fire them 18” on 2+
    Awesome. I have two Leviathan Dreadnoughts coming in 40k Death Guard painted, so seems cool.

    ***
    So, stuff like Plaguebearers, Plague Drones, they're in the DG Codex....but they don't have DG keywords. That means they can't be in a DG Detachment and still get DG perks for the detachment, right, as it would instead become a battleforged Nurgle detachment? So I'd want to break them apart into a Chaos Daemon detachment?

    Bizazedo on
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  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Norgoth wrote: »

    For extra points the Death Guard legion trait applies because they are hell brutes. A lot of the leviathan gun options real nice being able to move and fire. Those Grav flux are even scarier when you can move 8” and fire them 18” on 2+
    Awesome. I have two Leviathan Dreadnoughts coming in 40k Death Guard painted, so seems cool.

    ***
    So, stuff like Plaguebearers, Plague Drones, they're in the DG Codex....but they don't have DG keywords. That means they can't be in a DG Detachment and still get DG perks for the detachment, right, as it would instead become a battleforged Nurgle detachment? So I'd want to break them apart into a Chaos Daemon detachment?

    This is correct. Having a small daemon detachment or summoning will keep your DG traits.

    03x29di.png
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Thanks Mazzyx.

    I wanted to try Plaguebearers as they seem more resilient than Poxwalkers / my usual opponents are massacring the poxwalkers nowadays.

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  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Right, you need to lose your chapter tactic/legion benefits when mixing factions so it's often best to put them in their own detachments.

    Also Leviathan Dreadnoughts are pretty ridiculous, you may want to take it easy with crazy Forgeworld stuff in friendly games.

  • MazzyxMazzyx I can dig it. Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Thanks Mazzyx.

    I wanted to try Plaguebearers as they seem more resilient than Poxwalkers / my usual opponents are massacring the poxwalkers nowadays.

    Poxes don't run, plaguebearers do. Poxes with Typhus are as tough as a plague bearer almost. Poxes get more models thanks to stratagems and killing things, plagues don't. Plagues can deep strike, have their strength buffed, and get a bonus from the daemon loci which are all huge bonuses. But also cost more.

    03x29di.png
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Thanks Mazzyx.

    I wanted to try Plaguebearers as they seem more resilient than Poxwalkers / my usual opponents are massacring the poxwalkers nowadays.

    Poxes don't run, plaguebearers do. Poxes with Typhus are as tough as a plague bearer almost. Poxes get more models thanks to stratagems and killing things, plagues don't. Plagues can deep strike, have their strength buffed, and get a bonus from the daemon loci which are all huge bonuses. But also cost more.

    It sounds like there might not be one choice that's best in all circumstances. What madness is this? This isn't the GW I know!

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Right, you need to lose your chapter tactic/legion benefits when mixing factions so it's often best to put them in their own detachments.

    Also Leviathan Dreadnoughts are pretty ridiculous, you may want to take it easy with crazy Forgeworld stuff in friendly games.

    I'm mainly getting them because I think they look awesome. The guy painting them for me does a bang up job. Quite honestly, having looked at the tournaments for 40k and how they're run, they all feel amateurish as hell in terms of the TOs and I quickly lost interest in them because of how they seem to work. Games rarely ever end naturally, it seems, which alone makes the game / how you play totally different than what would be intended.

    It seems like, at the very least, the tourney organizers need to add an extra day and make them three days to budget in a bare minimum amount of time.

    That's not intended as a slight against the organizational skill of the TOs, mind you. Something like the LVO would be crazy hard to pull off. 40k itself just might not be a tournament game like the vidja game ones I've helped run / participated in where you can have open fields is all. At least, not a serious open field tournament.

    Getting back to the Leviathans, yeah, the main reason I'm getting them is they look awesome. That being said, my one friend plays Eldar and he's been trying hard to get Dark Reapers and Shining Spears, so I have no issue pulling these out of nowhere one day.

    Screw space elves.
    Mazzyx wrote: »

    Poxes don't run, plaguebearers do. Poxes with Typhus are as tough as a plague bearer almost. Poxes get more models thanks to stratagems and killing things, plagues don't. Plagues can deep strike, have their strength buffed, and get a bonus from the daemon loci which are all huge bonuses. But also cost more.
    Good argument for Poxes. I'll use these for variety sake, trying something new, and in AoS I guess. My buddy wants to get into that, too, sadly.

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  • BadablackBadablack Registered User regular
    So one of the downsides to living in a city with a big military base; there was a deployment order recently and 80% of my usual opponents all got on a boat and disappeared into the ocean for the foreseeable future. I’m all out of good players now, thanks Trump.

    FC: 1435-5383-0883
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    Badablack wrote: »
    So one of the downsides to living in a city with a big military base; there was a deployment order recently and 80% of my usual opponents all got on a boat and disappeared into the ocean for the foreseeable future. I’m all out of good players now, thanks Trump.

    I got used to that when I was in the Corps.
    It was why in our overseas bag I figured out how to transport two gangs and homemade terrain in a tiny box with the rules to hook other people into Necromunda
    Some took it some did not as they saw the price {yeah it was super expensive for a corporal, I have no idea if they could have afforded it as a PFC or SA or SN

  • BadablackBadablack Registered User regular
    Some sort of travel size box you could open up into a compact game board with terrain like one of those old Mighty Max/Polly Pocket toys would be an amazing idea for playing necromunda or kill team stuff on the go.

    FC: 1435-5383-0883
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    I used a small fishing tackle box like a Plano one but not by them and terrain I could break down made from MRE boxes

    Brainleech on
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    So here's something nice; after a minor scandal at the Las Vegas Open, Games Workshop are matching Marc Merrill by donating $5000 to charity in the name of good sportsmanship and are also looking into supporting more sporting play in general.

    Redcoat-13Lanlaorn
This discussion has been closed.