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Twilight Imperium: 4th edition - Game #1: And they're off!

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Posts

  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    I think I mentioned it somewhere (maybe the other game), but on average, you can expect about 3 VP worth of tech-related public objectives to pop out in a game, since there's two in each of Stage I and II, out of the ten cards in each stage. This is actually about the same as the objective mix from the base objectives in TI3e! As for the TI3e expansion, the alternate public objectives had only one technology objective per Stage, and fewer 'spending' objectives as well. It made up for those with more active combat-related objectives.

    However, those combat objectives required bookkeeping and memory of what transpired during the Action Phase of the round. In TI4e, those types of objectives have all been moved to Secret Objectives, where they can be scored during the Action Phase. The way the TI4e public objective decks have been designed, all the criteria must be immediately verifiable, so no disputes about criteria satisfaction can be made. The TI4e public objective deck is pretty balanced in that light. I don't really see FFG going back and adding combat objectives if they can't be absolutely verified, considering their streamlining decisions from TI3e to TI4e. So it would be a very interesting and drastic shift if they included variant or extension cards to add Action Phase-achievable public objective cards in some future expansion.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, I guess Mojo_Jojo also has the chance to claim victory if they have an achievable Secret Objective, but I don't really see any from my reckoning? We'll see?

    MrBlarney on
    4463rwiq7r47.png
    Hedgethorn
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular

    Claim Revolutionize Warfare for two more VP, giving me 9

    Look mournfully at my blow up a flagship and get ships next to a homeworld objectives.


    .
    Well done Hedgethorn!

    And thanks for hosting MrBody. You did a really good job.

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
    ElvenshaeHedgethorn
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    I’ll also claim revolutionize warfare.

    Then I’ll throw my secret objective cards on the table in a fit of pique.

    Master the laws of physics - Own 4 technologies of the same color. 1 VP
    Form Spy Network - Discard 5 action cards. 1 VP

    What a great game. Thanks, everyone, for letting me play my first game of this. Let me check something ...

    Geth, roll 1d4 for grins.

    Edit: Yeah. That woulda been interesting to do. I’ll post a ... post-mortem ... maybe tomorrow. :)

    grins:
    1d4 4 [1d4=4]

    Elvenshae on
    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
    Hedgethorn
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    And, of course, thanks, @MrBody!

    omgbfz5lzi1s.png
    Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
    The Disappearance of Inigo Sharpe: Tomas à Dunsanin
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Hedgethorn wrote: »
    I'm surprised how many victory points are tied up in technology. We managed to draw almost all the tech-related objectives, but even so, given that there's already a strong incentive to claim techs to buff up your empire, it seems a bit strange for the game to also shower you with victory points for doing so.

    There's a thread going on in BGG right now discussing how the game would be improved if you simply removed all the tech objectives, or at the very least the stage II ones.

    And I agree. Tech as a means in itself is silly. Objectives should either be about planet control, wealth, or maneuvering. Tech is none of those things. It doesn't even even reflect how wealthy you are because there's such a low cap on research rate. It's also the source of so much of the race imbalances (looking up the win statistics, pretty much all of the one tech starting races are bottom of the barrel, with zero tech N'orr being the absolute bottom). You look at how tough the stage II objectives are, then with tech they're either freebies or impossible to obtain. If I was to ever host again I'd definitely go with a "no tech objectives" variant.

    But not soon. Good lord I forgot how labor intensive hosting TI was. I need a break...by hosting something easier. Keep an eye out in the index!

    Elvenshae
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    and I'd like to apologize to Preda and the poor Winnu. Sticking someone with Winnu and then a randomized starting location turned out to be a big blunder. It's essentially impossible to win if Winnu get stuck with a red system in their path to Mecatol. I was surprised though how well Preda managed to do considering that AND getting his homeworld sacked mid game.

    In the future I'd do every game with the snaking draft method where starting location selection is done in opposite order as race selection.

    mindflare77Hedgethorn
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    And what game is complete without some graphs? So here are some graphs

    Round by round scores:
    8ATL3jh.png

    And then focusing solely on objectives we see that even though Hedgethorn fluffed the first four rounds he was still able to swing back and swing back hard due to just how important the non-objective VPs are:
    8fNPVtW.png

    Obviously that data is better shared as a histogram though, which proves that slow and steady does not win the race:
    rgzPVBp.png

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
    HedgethornElvenshae
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Hedgethorn wrote: »
    I'm surprised how many victory points are tied up in technology. We managed to draw almost all the tech-related objectives, but even so, given that there's already a strong incentive to claim techs to buff up your empire, it seems a bit strange for the game to also shower you with victory points for doing so.

    There's a thread going on in BGG right now discussing how the game would be improved if you simply removed all the tech objectives, or at the very least the stage II ones.

    It's interesting as my take is the opposite and it would be better removing the Stage I tech objectives as those seem to be just be freebies to some races. Or maybe have your starting techs not count against objectives? Who knows. The deck could do with some work though, that's a given.

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Everyone is capable of getting the stage I ones though. The stage IIs can be impossible if you didn't spend the first half of the game planning, but you can't plan because you don't know which stage IIs are going to come up, if at all. That's 2 whole VP for the binary requirement of either "freebie" or "impossible".

    Plus I don't think anyone but Jol-Nar is realistically ever going to score "Master the Sciences" (2 of every color). Guaranteed no one but Jol-Nar can grab both that and the "3 unit upgrades" one. N'orr is never going to practically be able to grab Master the Sciences (they would have to short change themselves by never grabbing a unit upgrade, all for the chance that a color tech objective will come up). Being locked out of 2 whole VP is cray cray.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about the tech objectives.
    It seems like races at a disadvantage should be pushing hard to reduce the overall game length by pressing MR and getting SOs.
    And those races that tend to have the disadvantage are also militaristic, so...

    But then the race bonuses don't seem particularly well-spread anyway.
    Esp. N'orr.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    I have lots of thoughts about TI now, but they aren't about this game and they might be more generally interesting so I'll stick them in the boardgame thread
    MrBody wrote: »
    Everyone is capable of getting the stage I ones though. The stage IIs can be impossible if you didn't spend the first half of the game planning, but you can't plan because you don't know which stage IIs are going to come up, if at all. That's 2 whole VP for the binary requirement of either "freebie" or "impossible".

    Plus I don't think anyone but Jol-Nar is realistically ever going to score "Master the Sciences" (2 of every color). Guaranteed no one but Jol-Nar can grab both that and the "3 unit upgrades" one. N'orr is never going to practically be able to grab Master the Sciences (they would have to short change themselves by never grabbing a unit upgrade, all for the chance that a color tech objective will come up). Being locked out of 2 whole VP is cray cray.

    That seems fair. I imagine Jol Nar would slide right down the victory leaderboard though if they can't rely on getting a couple of easy tech objectives.

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    And then focusing solely on objectives we see that even though Hedgethorn fluffed the first four rounds he was still able to swing back and swing back hard due to just how important the non-objective VPs are:
    rgzPVBp.png

    I got very lucky by drawing early into some very achieveable secret objectives. "Have ships in six sectors" seems tailor made for Arborec, and the "have ships at both wormholes" just required some careful tiptoeing around your PDS units.

    I actually came very close to scoring all 3 secret objectives: I was holding the "Have 3 ships at Mecatol Rex" secret objective when I took Mecatol and was only stopped from scoring it by MrBlarney wiping out my fleet at the very end of that round.

    Mojo_JojoElvenshae
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    I feel like I made some really bad decisions early on because I didn't understand the game well. Also, had read some advice that was actually for 3rd Edition... That second space dock was a huge waste.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
    Elvenshae
  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    @Mojo_Jojo: I noticed in your plots that, for round 7, you only gave Status Phase points for Arborec and Jol-Nar. Since Arborec took (8) Imperial, everyone else should also be able to get 2 VPs from Revolutionize Warfare. It means a tighter range of points at the end of the game, and a slightly more regular Objective achievement plot. (Also, saying that the clustered bar chart "proves that slow and steady does not win the race" kind of irks me since this game is but a single case study.)

    For the record, my other two secret objectives were "Turn their Fleets to Dust" (Action Phase, Use Space Cannon to destroy the last of a player's ships in a system.) and "Adapt New Strategies" (Status Phase, Own 2 faction technologies.). I also discarded "Forge an Alliance" (Status Phase, Control 4 cultural planets.).

    4463rwiq7r47.png
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Also, I was at 7 before claiming Revolutionize Warfare, and would have been at 8 if I had taken Nestphar.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Yep round seven only myself and Arborec could legally claim points, I probably should have included everybody for completeness but not everybody had made their claims and I am lazy

    And yes, saying it proved slow and steady doesn't win the race was a joke. Nothing was proved except I like making graphs

    Mojo_Jojo on
    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • PredaPreda Registered User regular
    I also claim Revolutionize Warfare 2VP but also Fuel the War Machine- Have 3 space docks on the board. 1 VP. So at least I'll go to 8, and given I've lost my homeworld mid game and consequently lost a chance to score I'm ok with my situation, specially given Winnu...

    mindflare77HedgethornElvenshae
  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Yep round seven only myself and Arborec could legally claim points
    No? See rule 70.1, that objectives are scored in order of initiative, long before the Strategy cards are returned in step 70.8. And since the initiative order was:
    Mojo_Jojo (2) Diplomacy
    MrBlarney (3) Politics
    Preda (4) Construction
    Brody (6) Warfare
    Elvenshae (7) Technology
    Hedgethorn (8) Imperial
    everyone should have been able to claim Public and Secret objectives. Even if that wasn't the case, what board state would allow for only Jol-Nar and Arborec to claim objectives? I held the Speaker token.

    Given Preda's post, it looks like the point spread would be even closer at the end of the game. If we did go to Round 8, I think I'd probably have to go with Imperial, even though I wouldn't have the best means to get to 10 VP off of the Imperial play. Maybe go for Leadership and plan on Elvenshae taking Imperial? I guess it'd depend on what the new Stage II objective would have been.

    4463rwiq7r47.png
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    One day I'll understand turn order on this game

    Edit: I'll update those graphs with actual real numbers when I get a chance

    Mojo_Jojo on
    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
    Elvenshae
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    "Turn their Fleets to Dust" (Action Phase, Use Space Cannon to destroy the last of a player's ships in a system.

    This is probably the dumbest secret objective in the game. It's situational and the situation is largely out of your control. Could probably stand to be trimmed from the deck.

    Mojo_JojoElvenshaeHedgethornmindflare77Ketar
  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    Graphs updated based on the actual rules and not the special Mojo version of the rules:

    JMbEbDX.png

    188UKXF.png

    3OTZJNe.png

    Still shameful shameful silver for me. I think the most interesting point here will be how we see these things change with games played. I probably should also have tracked non-objective VP income

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    (Now put Muuat on the graphs so I can skew them)

    (To be clear, not so I can revel in it, but because a 4 objective 5 point turn is some serious BS)

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • PredaPreda Registered User regular
    I claime 3 (2 standard, 1 secret) point last turn, so I should be at 8 total.

  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo But do you really believe him? Registered User regular
    The lesson here is that counting is hard

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
    PredaBrodyElvenshaediscrider
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