Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Penny Arcade - Comic - Dropping Science

1356

Posts

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    An English degree in literature and writing. :)

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Even if the discovery institute is this or that, read their article and decide for yourself. I mean, do I have to point out the hypocrisy of your stance, since you are biased yourself..?

    Translucia on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    I have read like 300+ books. I have a degree in it. Anyway, fact is, you can't explain it elegantly and concisely. That's what I mean. And yes, truths should be elegant and concise and make sense intuitively. What gave me that idea? Exactly... exactly.. What indeed? What gave you your ideas? Objective reality, you say. Well, tell me, objectively, why you are alive. Because of evolution? I don't know, man.

    NIGHTSLYR--Well, I was making a joke, so I can't. Good try, though. Repeatable equations show evidence of repeatable phenomenon, but I'm talking about creative energy.

    I've read far more than 300 books. Also you have "a degree in it"? What is it? Reading?

    As for truths needing to be easy, you're writing on a computing device, on a message board, on the internet, all of which are made possible by a huge pile of scientists, engineers, and programmers, working with many truths that are incredibly difficult and require years of study you understand. But they actually produced something tangible and useful. Crystals and vaguely defined energy and half-baked (or perhaps totally baked amirite) philosophies about how shits so mysterious man have accomplished jack shit.

    As Einstein once said*
    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. "

    *Apocryphal. He probably expressed an idea like that in a lecture but the earliest written instance of the pithy version seems to be from notes by Roger Sessions about an Einstein lecture.

    steam_sig.png
    kimecB557Moridin889BucketmanZilla360Elvenshaeforty
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    My point is that there's plenty of debate about evolution. And if you just believe everything your science teacher tells you, good luck. They leave out a lot. These are the same people who work on the cancer cure.... I'm not saying everything they say is wrong. I mean, look at all the pretty technology we have, but I think it's more sophisticated than everything is wrong or right.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    Even if the discovery institute is this or that, read their article and decide for yourself. I mean, do I have to point out the hypocrisy of your stance, since you are biased yourself..?

    The discovery institute has burned its credit. They've long since proven themselves unreliable. We're not discounting the source just because they're anti-evolution. They're consistently wrong, and disingenuous and have been so for years. How many chances should we give them? 30? 100? Infinity plus one no takebacksies?

    steam_sig.png
    cB557H3KnucklesZilla360
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Translucia wrote: »
    Tube--Maybe the difference between you and I is that I've learned enough to know how mysterious it all is.

    I am about as certain as it is possible to reasonably be that this is not the case.

    The problem isn't that you don't know anything. You don't know anything, but that isn't the problem. No one starts out knowing things. The problem is that you are incapable of admitting that you don't understand something and subsequently looking inwards. Instead of saying "I don't understand evolution" (you don't) "It's seems very complicated" (it is) "therefore I should learn more about it" (you should), you have said "I don't understand evolution, and I am obviously very smart. Therefore evolution must be wrong, because I, a very smart person, do not understand it".

    You are starting from two false premises. The first is that you are very smart. The second (based on the first) is that this unusual degree of intelligence means that you should understand things intuitively. Instead of learning, you find things that are easy to understand, fairy stories about energy and gods that live in the sun, and say "these must be true, because I, a very smart person, think they make sense". It is very easy to make up an internally consistent bullshit hypothesis, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove one. That's why any holes are necessarily patched up with "the world is mysterious, we can't possibly know", where the scientific method would say "the world is mysterious, let's make it less so."

    You're using faulty metrics like "I have a degree" (in what? who cares? I have one too. I didn't have to be smart to get it) and "I have read 300+ books". Which books? There are 62 goosebumps books, but you could read every single one of them and not learn a damn thing about a damn thing. Real scientists, real, actual smart people don't talk about how many books they've read because A. They don't count them and B. They know it doesn't matter. Ditto IQ tests or whatever other method you're going to use to convince everyone in this thread that you have some authority due to your advanced intellect.

    Until you understand that you are wrong, why you are wrong and the flaws in your reasoning that led you to believe that you are right, you cannot acquire knowledge in any kind of useful fashion. You can only acquire new, easy-to-understand horseshit. Happily, there is an infinite supply.

    TofystedethkimeArchNightslyrSurfpossumDarth WaiterSleepcB557tynicEmperorSethL Ron HowardNightDragonNobodyadmanbswaylowGoose!KetarCalicaAndy JoeH3KnucklesVladimerChallMoridin889chrishallett83jakobaggerJoolandergodmodeSkeithCambiataAegeriPolaritieLeon2309milskiLabellonelyahavaQuidBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireDemonStaceyTaskmandennisFeralIron WeaselRobonunBolthornMrGrimoirezerzhulJaysonFourKwoaruPenumbraCommander ZoomZilla360Jacques L'HommeVeagleDarkPrimusSmrtnikA Dabble Of TheloniusStupidLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshaeRhesus PositiveBarrakkethRehab
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Translucia wrote: »
    An English degree in literature and writing. :)

    You should go and reread your notes on proper use of the ellipsis.

    kimeTofystedethNightslyrHavelock2.0Darth WaitertynicMayabirdDasUberEdwardL Ron HowardNightDragonadmanbGoose!Andy JoeH3KnucklesVladimerBloodySlothMoridin889chrishallett83godmodeSkeithAegeriPolaritielonelyahavaBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireDemonStaceyJaysonFourCommander ZoomZilla360Lord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshaeRhesus Positive
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    My point is that there's plenty of debate about evolution. And if you just believe everything your science teacher tells you, good luck. They leave out a lot. These are the same people who work on the cancer cure.... I'm not saying everything they say is wrong. I mean, look at all the pretty technology we have, but I think it's more sophisticated than everything is wrong or right.

    I'm curious what you mean by that. Is it that because we don't have a "cure" for cancer, science is bogus?

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
    Leon2309
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Translucia wrote: »
    My point is that there's plenty of debate about evolution. And if you just believe everything your science teacher tells you, good luck. They leave out a lot. These are the same people who work on the cancer cure.... I'm not saying everything they say is wrong. I mean, look at all the pretty technology we have, but I think it's more sophisticated than everything is wrong or right.

    I'm curious what you mean by that. Is it that because we don't have a "cure" for cancer, science is bogus?

    The idea of a cure for cancer is easy to understand and thus should be easy to implement. Since they haven't they're either crooks or very dumb i guess.

    steam_sig.png
    H3KnucklesLeon2309BucketmanVegemyteSmrtnik
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    TOFYSTDETH--It may take years of study, but most computer knowledge is actually pretty elegant and easy to grasp when you're into it. Computers makes sense, which is why they work. They are also totally mysterious and sprang up in like 40 years. That's what's interesting to me. You can say we're this or that but you don't really know. You're just theorizing. You can test it, but many times the tests aren't totally conclusive. Science eyeballs and generalizes all the time.

    Also, crystals are mysterious. That's just true. Has that gotten us anywhere? I would argue that being humbled by the mysterious world has gotten us farther than almost anything else. Art is not science, but science is a lot like art... The cool thing about being an artist is that you're allowed to be totally crazy and believe in energies and still create all kinds of amazing new things, like science does. What does that mean? That humans are more than just science and our technological developments.. I don't know.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Translucia wrote: »
    My point is that there's plenty of debate about evolution. And if you just believe everything your science teacher tells you, good luck. They leave out a lot. These are the same people who work on the cancer cure.... I'm not saying everything they say is wrong. I mean, look at all the pretty technology we have, but I think it's more sophisticated than everything is wrong or right.

    I can absolutely guarantee you that the scientists that work on evolution are not also the ones that are looking for the cure for cancer.
    Even if the discovery institute is this or that, read their article and decide for yourself. I mean, do I have to point out the hypocrisy of your stance, since you are biased yourself..?
    What bias am I exhibiting exactly? The fact that I won't look past the motivated reasoning of this organization that operates with a clear agenda is not evidence of my own hypocrisy. I'm also not your science teacher, if you truly wish to find answers to the questions you have, with data to support them, a good place to start would be http://www.talkorigins.org/

    Marathon on
    Dumb Hero wrote: »
    "Okay, you take 2d4 damage from the ogre's dick impaling your 2inch anus"
    Satan! Look here!
    H3KnucklesBucketman
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Tube--the whole reason I mentioned the books I read, fully knowing I'd get a reaction like I got, is that you assumed I was a big skimmer. I was just letting you know I'm a very careful reader, just not that time. Also, I use the ellipsis for emotional purposes.

  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    An ellipsis should only be three dots, and indicates that you are either trailing off...

    ...or completing a thought.

    If you just use them.... randomly.... in a sentence, it reads as though... you are suffering from narcolepsy...

    BolthornDark Raven XElvenshae
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    The cure for cancer is a healthy diet and to limit toxicity, not chemotherapy...

  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Translucia wrote: »
    The cure for cancer is a healthy diet and to limit toxicity, not chemotherapy...

    The cure for many kinds of cancer is, in fact, chemotherapy. The cure for zero types of cancer is a healthy diet.

    MarathonHavelock2.0TofystedethcB557tynicEmperorSethL Ron HowardNightDragonNobodyGnizmoadmanbjoshofalltradesswaylowGoose!KetarAndy JoeH3KnucklesMoridin889webguy20chrishallett83jakobaggerJoolandergodmodePreacherSkeithCambiataAegeriLeon2309LabellonelyahavaQuidadejaanBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireDemonStaceyIron WeaselBolthornMrGrimoireZilla360Jacques L'HommePenumbraA Dabble Of TheloniusLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshaeRhesus Positive
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    TOFY--I could make the same claims you make about the discovery institute about the scientist community. Sell outs, false info, military industrial complex buddies, soulless drones who endlessly reduce humanity to equations..

    Tube--My point isn't that I'm very smart. My point is that you aren't.

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    All of you seem to think I think I'm right about what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying none of you are either.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    All of you seem to think I think I'm right about what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying none of you are either.

    On one hand you claim that you aren't right about the things you say. But, at the same time you then claim to know the cure for cancer.

    Dumb Hero wrote: »
    "Okay, you take 2d4 damage from the ogre's dick impaling your 2inch anus"
    Satan! Look here!
    H3KnucklesLeon2309Bucketman
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    The cure for cancer is a healthy diet and to limit toxicity, not chemotherapy...
    This is a remarkably short-sighted and stupid statement, and it is an affront to anyone who has had a loved one die of cancer. If you had even an inkling of understanding about cancer, medicine, or science, you wouldn't be making such awful statements.

    You could have the healthiest diet in the world and be the healthiest person in the world, but still die of cancer. There are a number of things that can cause cancer that is independent of diet, ranging from infectious diseases (HPV) to radiation to simple genetics. If you actually had any knowledge in the field, you would know this.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
    kimeMarathoncB557tynicMayabirdEmperorSethL Ron HowardNightDragonNobodyKetarAndy JoeH3KnucklesMoridin889chrishallett83JoolanderCambiataDrezAegeriLeon2309LabellonelyahavaadejaanBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireFeralCommander ZoomAngelHedgieZilla360SmrtnikLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshae
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Translucia wrote: »
    All of you seem to think I think I'm right about what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying none of you are either.

    Yes, but you see, you're wrong about that.

    Andy JoeH3KnucklesDrezLeon2309BucketmanVegemyteDjiemZilla360Jacques L'HommeDark Raven XKamarElvenshaeRhesus Positive
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    There are tons of actual cancer survivors who totally disagree with you all about chemotherapy.

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Here's a really famous one: chrisbeatcancer.com.

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Go tell Chris that he's wrong about the cure for cancer. I don't have cancer. It's not really my idea. I know a lot of people have died from chemotherapy, according to stats I've heard..

  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Aight, this is off-topic now. No more woo woo bullshit, back to the comic.

    NightslyrcB557Andy JoeH3Knuckleschrishallett83Leon2309VegemyteDjiemShadowfireJaysonFourCommander ZoomZilla360Dark Raven XLord_Asmodeus
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    Here's a really famous one: chrisbeatcancer.com.
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chris-beat-cancer/

    Google'd, debunked. Rather soundly. He had multiple surgeries AND adjuvant chemotherapy, too.

    He charges $100 an hour, or $175 for two hours, to impart his "non-medical healing wisdom" to you.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
    NightslyrcB557tynicL Ron HowardswaylowH3KnucklesMoridin889chrishallett83jakobaggerMcFodderJoolanderSkeithCambiataBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireFeralBhowBolthornJaysonFourCommander ZoomZilla360Jacques L'HommeLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshaeRhesus Positiveforty
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Let the cancer argument be an indicator of your overall level of indoctrination. Go visit chrisbeatcancer.com.

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    TOFYSTDETH--It may take years of study, but most computer knowledge is actually pretty elegant and easy to grasp when you're into it. Computers makes sense, which is why they work. They are also totally mysterious and sprang up in like 40 years. That's what's interesting to me. You can say we're this or that but you don't really know. You're just theorizing. You can test it, but many times the tests aren't totally conclusive. Science eyeballs and generalizes all the time.

    Also, crystals are mysterious. That's just true. Has that gotten us anywhere? I would argue that being humbled by the mysterious world has gotten us farther than almost anything else. Art is not science, but science is a lot like art... The cool thing about being an artist is that you're allowed to be totally crazy and believe in energies and still create all kinds of amazing new things, like science does. What does that mean? That humans are more than just science and our technological developments.. I don't know.

    Computers aren't mysterious. We know exactly how they work. Because we created them. Using science.

    Why is all this blood shooting out of my eyes

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
    MaximumNightslyrkimecB557tynicL Ron HowardNightDragonSadgasmAndy JoeH3KnucklesMoridin889webguy20chrishallett83JoolanderSkeithPolaritieLeon2309BucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireJaysonFourknitdanZilla360Jacques L'HommeLord_AsmodeusKamarRhesus Positive
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular

  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    That applies to everyone.

  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    The cure for cancer is a healthy diet and to limit toxicity, not chemotherapy...

    As someone who recently lost an older brother to leukemia, all I can say is fuck this noise. Chemotherapy kept my brother alive for as long as he was able to keep up.

    You should feel ashamed even voicing this idea in a public space. It's dumb and can cause very real harm to people suffering from a terrible disease.

    NightslyrbowenDarth WaiterkimeSleepcB557SolartynicMayabirdL Ron HowardjkylefultonEmperorSethNightDragonNobodyGnizmoKetarCalicaAndy JoeH3KnucklesMoridin889chrishallett83DarkewolfeJoolanderSkeithCambiataAegeriLeon2309LabelQuidBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireFeralRobonunBolthornJaysonFourCommander ZoomAngelHedgieZilla360Jacques L'HommePenumbraLostNinjaMunkus BeaverLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshae
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    ^^^

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Zomro--I'm sorry about your brother, but I get to have my own opinion. I am not the only person who believes this and it's not even my idea. There are a lot of actual survivors who believe that chemo doesn't cure cancer.

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    I've lost people I care about to cancer too, by the way. And they died in a hospital.

    Translucia on
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    A man goes to see a doctor and says "doctor, it hurts my brain to read this guy's nonsense, also it wastes my time trying to refute it because he never acknowledges when something he says is proved to be incorrect, he just spouts even more nonsense"

    The doctor replies "Ah I see you're new to the internet. Take 2 aspirin and learn to use the ignore function"

    DasUberEdwardH3KnucklesAegeriBucketmanZilla360Elvenshae
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Off topic posts after this point will be jailed

  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Translucia wrote: »
    My point is that there's plenty of debate about evolution. And if you just believe everything your science teacher tells you, good luck. They leave out a lot. These are the same people who work on the cancer cure.... I'm not saying everything they say is wrong. I mean, look at all the pretty technology we have, but I think it's more sophisticated than everything is wrong or right.

    This is an interesting point, because, there is a large amount of internal debate about how exactly evolution works. On a more practical level, there is an internal struggle in the field to rephrase and repackage the old axiom that evolution is "a change in gene frequencies over time."

    I'll quote Sean Carroll here, when he says, in Endless Forms Most Beautiful, and stolen shamelessly from this paper:
    Millions of biology students have been taught the view (from population genetics) that ‘evolution is change in gene frequencies.’ …This view forces the explanation toward mathematics and abstract descriptions of genes, and away from butterflies and zebras …The evolution of form is the main drama of life’s story, both as found in the fossil record and in the diversity of living species. So, let’s teach that story. Instead of ‘change in gene frequencies,’ let’s try ‘evolution of form is change in development’

    I quite like this idea, because it more easily lends itself to the idea that most evolutionary changes that happen over time are...happy accidents, and also reinforces that small changes in the timing of developmental processes can lead to large-scale changes in an organism's body, that it can then pass on to it's children.....

    Of course, this view of evolution, as a change in the time of when certain genes turn on and off is instead of changes in frequency of genes in a population driving change, is receiving intense pushback from other scientists, and how best to incorporate this viewpoint into the standing theory is one of the most contentious debates in the field, currently. It is known as the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis, and you can read about it here.

    I'm biased, and support the EES, but I also suspect you don't give a shit about everything I just posted, because as Tube alluded to, you don't actually know what you're talking about. You linked a page from the Discovery Institute without even having read it, because it was probably one of the first hits on Google for "evolution criticisms," and you don't know enough about the base assumptions of the science to dig into how the majority of the points they raise aren't actual predictions of evolutionary theory, and the time they spend tilting at these points only serves to move us further away from actual knowledge of science.

    Of course, this isn't your fault. Evolutionary biology is poorly taught at all levels, partly due to religious meddling, and partially due to it being a complicated topic that (until recently) was heavily dependent on a strong working knowledge of statistics and probability, which tend to be outside the bounds of most science classrooms.

    Which is why this comic distresses me. People are taught that evolution is a matter of belief, and that lets people get their foot in the door to pretend that this science is actually a matter of opinion. This is dangerous, because then you get places like the Discovery Institute, who think that if they could just say the right words and argue against the underlying logic of the theory then they can upend the weight of decades of scientific research, without actually engaging in any research on their own.

    Hahnsoo1MarathonSleepcB557tynicDarkPrimusTofystedethMayabirdL Ron HowardbowenAndy JoeNightslyrH3KnucklesDarkewolfeJoolanderSkeithCambiataAegeriLabelQuidBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireTaskmanFeralInfidelKwoaruCommander ZoomZilla360Jacques L'HommeLord_Asmodeusforty
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    On a different note, if anyone has any questions about evolutionary theory, or needs me to give critical responses to something that the Discovery Institute pushes around, feel free to shoot me a message.

    I've read 300+ books and have a degree in it.

    Hahnsoo1kimeMarathonTubeSleepcB557RiustynicDarkPrimusTofystedethMayabirdBurnageL Ron HowardNightDragonNobodyDasUberEdwardbowenjoshofalltradesCalicaAndy JoeMoridin889H3KnucklesNightslyrchrishallett83DarkewolfeJoolanderSkeithceresCambiataLabelAl_watlonelyahavaQuidBucketmanVegemyteDjiemShadowfireTaskmanFeralInfidelBhowRobonunMrGrimoireKwoaruCommander ZoomAngelHedgieZilla360Jacques L'HommePenumbraDark Raven XSunrizeA Dabble Of TheloniusLord_AsmodeusKamarElvenshaeRhesus PositiveBarrakkethforty
  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    Arch--so they aren't totally sure how it works. And they are reworking it and trying to figure it out. That's my point. I'm not saying I understand it. I'm saying nobody does. Not really.

    And this is on topic. I thought the discovery institute article was fine. If you guys hate the whole thing because of this reason or that, so what. Good luck. I don't think you really have it figured out though, and the fact that you do think that is what makes it more tragic. Nobody does.

  • TransluciaTranslucia Registered User regular
    I don't have to have some kind of advanced knowledge of evolution to know it doesn't make sense, by the way. That's like saying you need to understand everything about nuclear power to know nuclear bombs are bad.

Sign In or Register to comment.