The above common take is, IMO, pretty strongly based on good old American exceptionalism (because guess who writes/produces/films/consumes most SF), and how quickly we matched and then surpassed the other Great Powers of the world; we conveniently don't talk about how much of that is because those same great powers first used us against each other, and then helpfully cleared the decks by spending a good part of last century blowing each other to shit while we were nearly untouched.
So impression on the latest episode Identity part 1 is:
Issac has always been this way and we as biological beings kept ignoring his very blatant exclamations that he doesn’t “feel”and continue to treat him like an emotional being.
Kind of how we tend to assign personality to inanimate objects, Hell he even pointed this out!
I think this is how they introduce Orville’s version of the Borg.
And if it is this will be pretty damn amazing.
Edit:spelling
Edit2:I don’t know what I was thinking, I meant Issac, not Kylon SMH
Part of me was completely "well duh" in regards to how Isaac treated everyone. At every step he tells everyone repeatedly, humans are primative, humans are primitive. He had no emotions. He never tried to simulate emotions like Data did. Numerous times he demonstrated the notion that biologicals meant nothing to him outside of his "research" So I am very much in the camp of thinking Claire was an idiot to enter into a relationship with him. Other than the whole genocide twist I thought the idea of Isaac leaving the crew just as unemotionally as he always has been was a no brainer and how could the rest of the crew not see this coming?. Why would the Kaylons keep the bodies around though much less not have a close eye on any biological leaving the ship and allowing the kid to discover the secret?
I was also expecting Kaylons to not even look like Isaac and that he looked the way he did for humanoid benefit. But if Kaylons were built by humanoids, then that at least makes sense.
Why would the Kaylons keep the bodies around though much less not have a close eye on any biological leaving the ship and allowing the kid to discover the secret?
I was also expecting Kaylons to not even look like Isaac and that he looked the way he did for humanoid benefit. But if Kaylons were built by humanoids, then that at least makes sense.
To be fair, they didn't actually do anything respectful with the bodies, they tossed them into the nearest available holes and left them conveniently out of the way to rot.
Another thing I liked is that the different Kaylons looked different. It wasn't all the same costume, there were differences in design and material, but still enough uniformity to make them all look like the same people. Thought that was a nice touch.
The Isaac we have now is reset or altered compared to the Isaac we've gotten to know. Something will happen to reawaken the 'robo-feelings' he has developed for the crew without realizing it, and he'll help save the day. We'll also learn that he wasn't actually around at the time of the genocide, and so he didn't directly participate in it.
Though obviously I could be completely wrong. Either way, it'll be interesting to see where they go with this.
When the Kaylons took Isaac's body away, they'd already said they had all his data, so when they opened up his head and messed with him, I assume that was altering his personality. They literally showed us them messing with his head. I'm betting that one of the kids is directly threatened next episode and that triggers Isaac's old personality to kick back in and he saves the day.
While I agree this is what will probably happen, I really wish it wasn’t.
I prefer the idea that this was always his purpose and intention.
This episode was fantastic and never thought I'd be this excited for the next episode of a MacFarlane show.
I think it's the ensemble nature of the thing. Captain Mercer isn't necessarily the focus of every episode, unlike, say, Family Guy, where some Seth Mcfarlane character is usually front and center.
This episode was fantastic and never thought I'd be this excited for the next episode of a MacFarlane show.
I think it's the ensemble nature of the thing. Captain Mercer isn't necessarily the focus of every episode, unlike, say, Family Guy, where some Seth Mcfarlane character is usually front and center.
I mean MacFarlane still has writing credits for half the episodes, though Identity, Part 1 is credited to Brannon Braga and André Bormanis (long time Trek guys).
Isaac's mission was always to gather information about Humans' but he geniunely believe it was to evaluate the idea of joining them. I'm going with "Prime" is the one leading the "kill all organics" faction and that Isaac will lead a "co-exist" faction. This gives sort of a stalemate to the organics being wiped out but also them having to treat with respect the non-hostile kaylons. Much like the discussion about the Moclans being part of the Union, there is a sentiment of how inclusive can we be.
The jokes in Identity were right where they needed to be too. Not too jokey joke or low brow or insulting. There's definitely been some missteps this season but definitely firing on all cylinders.
1. "I bet this causes cancer."
2. The whole cake thing. Funny and then better when you realize Bortus is explaining how he needs his cake before someone shows up and ruins it. He's been in that situation before.
3. "We are totally getting fired."
The Data thing last page kind of ate at me a bit, and I have thoughts.
Isaac is more like Lore than Data. Lore was given emotions and raised similar to a child, and instead of learning the lessons intended he learned how to hide in plain sight among the squishy insects he had nothing but contempt for. He could assimilate into a society fluidly but would be cruel and destructive once he did.
Data was different, though. He was not given emotions, but he also had something Lore didn't: his morals were hard coded and nearly inviolate. He couldn't assimilate into society easily, but was compelled to be a positive force in it regardless. Killing, even in self defense, was difficult for him. He killed Kivas Fajo only after great deliberation, when he finally decided it was morally right - Fajo would not kill Data but had killed and would continue to kill to control him. Even then he hesitated for a full five seconds, an eternity for a computer that can do quintillions of operations in that time.
I kinda wanted them to be like in that one Animatrix "Second Renaissance" where the robots show up to treat with the humans a second time looking like mechanical insectoids, having abandoned all pretense of catering to human sensibilities.
Can we please acknowledge Lt Gordon and his awesome song during Isaac's party. I feel like it kind of got lost in the shuffle with how heavy the episode was. I was blown away.
I don't think it works that Isaac had been reprogrammed, since he still went through with the leaving party but still dumped the picture. If he gave no shits he'd have ignored the party as well.
Can we please acknowledge Lt Gordon and his awesome song during Isaac's party. I feel like it kind of got lost in the shuffle with how heavy the episode was. I was blown away.
I don't think it works that Isaac had been reprogrammed, since he still went through with the leaving party but still dumped the picture. If he gave no shits he'd have ignored the party as well.
they were trying to keep the Orville there and unaware for as long as possible, it was probably just to keep up appearances
needing additional room and resources to continue to grow seems like a kind of weak impetus for conflict.
Like... they're machines. They don't need to eat or sleep or breathe. They don't need to find rare "garden worlds". The number of uninhabited planets for them to go through would probably be nearly limitless.
needing additional room and resources to continue to grow seems like a kind of weak impetus for conflict.
Like... they're machines. They don't need to eat or sleep or breathe. They don't need to find rare "garden worlds". The number of uninhabited planets for them to go through would probably be nearly limitless.
But nope. It's a B-Line for Earth.
As others have noted, it's not that they need or want Earth for themselves; it's a decapitation strike, at one of the most formidable potential threats/obstacles to said limitless expansion.
Next, I suppose, would be the other homeworlds, including the Krill.
I'm thinking of the point in Master of Orion (and other 4X games) when one feels confident about one's tech superiority to send out your elite doomstacks to cripple all your rivals.
maybe Isaac dropped the drawing on purpose, knowing he'd be followed and the truth found. Maybe he calculated that the Kaylon attack would happen too soon to succeed that way, and was only able to do so because he's better than the other Kaylons, since he's working with Organics. Thus ending up proving their worth.
maybe Isaac dropped the drawing on purpose, knowing he'd be followed and the truth found. Maybe he calculated that the Kaylon attack would happen too soon to succeed that way, and was only able to do so because he's better than the other Kaylons, since he's working with Organics. Thus ending up proving their worth.
also issac has a perfect memory, he could have put that thing on the mental refrigerator front and center but still dropped the physical drawing. I gotta give em credit that there's not yet clear indication of where isaac is at this point.
Yes, the ambiguity of some of the scenes is really good. It's nice to not know how something will end up. Some of the krill episodes from season 1 were that way as well.
maybe Isaac dropped the drawing on purpose, knowing he'd be followed and the truth found. Maybe he calculated that the Kaylon attack would happen too soon to succeed that way, and was only able to do so because he's better than the other Kaylons, since he's working with Organics. Thus ending up proving their worth.
I think too much is being read into dropping the picture.
If Isaac had done this last week, it wouldn't have been that surprising. He instantly memorized every subtle detail of the picture when he saw it, and would be able to perfectly recall (and probably even recreate it) it at any time. Even if he already understands the personal value of the picture (which he may not - you could get a whole C plot out of him learning that) he still may not understand the value of the physical copy separate from the image.
maybe Isaac dropped the drawing on purpose, knowing he'd be followed and the truth found. Maybe he calculated that the Kaylon attack would happen too soon to succeed that way, and was only able to do so because he's better than the other Kaylons, since he's working with Organics. Thus ending up proving their worth.
I think too much is being read into dropping the picture.
If Isaac had done this last week, it wouldn't have been that surprising. He instantly memorized every subtle detail of the picture when he saw it, and would be able to perfectly recall (and probably even recreate it) it at any time. Even if he already understands the personal value of the picture (which he may not - you could get a whole C plot out of him learning that) he still may not understand the value of the physical copy separate from the image.
And that's of course assuming he actually cares.
I am not sure if it's accurate to say that it would have been in character or not. Just a week ago he was soliciting opinions on sexual positions to be a better lover. If his job was just to evaluate humans and their activity then why would he care about being better at it or by improving the experience for his partner? Shouldn't it have been a check mark and onto the next experience?
I am firmly in the Isaac was altered upon being rebooted .
maybe Isaac dropped the drawing on purpose, knowing he'd be followed and the truth found. Maybe he calculated that the Kaylon attack would happen too soon to succeed that way, and was only able to do so because he's better than the other Kaylons, since he's working with Organics. Thus ending up proving their worth.
I think too much is being read into dropping the picture.
If Isaac had done this last week, it wouldn't have been that surprising. He instantly memorized every subtle detail of the picture when he saw it, and would be able to perfectly recall (and probably even recreate it) it at any time. Even if he already understands the personal value of the picture (which he may not - you could get a whole C plot out of him learning that) he still may not understand the value of the physical copy separate from the image.
And that's of course assuming he actually cares.
I am not sure if it's accurate to say that it would have been in character or not. Just a week ago he was soliciting opinions on sexual positions to be a better lover. If his job was just to evaluate humans and their activity then why would he care about being better at it or by improving the experience for his partner? Shouldn't it have been a check mark and onto the next experience?
I am firmly in the Isaac was altered upon being rebooted .
Plus he seems to be showing none of the noticeably-bad-at-things symptoms of being separated from Claire.
However, I still don't trust the writers enough to decide if these are goofs or hints.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Part of me was completely "well duh" in regards to how Isaac treated everyone. At every step he tells everyone repeatedly, humans are primative, humans are primitive. He had no emotions. He never tried to simulate emotions like Data did. Numerous times he demonstrated the notion that biologicals meant nothing to him outside of his "research" So I am very much in the camp of thinking Claire was an idiot to enter into a relationship with him. Other than the whole genocide twist I thought the idea of Isaac leaving the crew just as unemotionally as he always has been was a no brainer and how could the rest of the crew not see this coming?. Why would the Kaylons keep the bodies around though much less not have a close eye on any biological leaving the ship and allowing the kid to discover the secret?
I was also expecting Kaylons to not even look like Isaac and that he looked the way he did for humanoid benefit. But if Kaylons were built by humanoids, then that at least makes sense.
The genocide of the previous race was a no brainer to me as well. I mean, AI came from somewhere, and unless the twist was that the previous sentients on the planet were being used as slave labor or batteries like The Matrix, genocide was really the expected outcome for them.
the Federation knew basically nothing about the Kaylon race but were still all like "Sure, send us your ambassador so that you can learn everything about us while remaining mysterious yourselves. I sure hope you guys aren't hostiles abusing our trust in an attempt to discern our strengths and weaknesses. Heh heh heh... heh..."
the Federation knew basically nothing about the Kaylon race but were still all like "Sure, send us your ambassador so that you can learn everything about us while remaining mysterious yourselves. I sure hope you guys aren't hostiles abusing our trust in an attempt to discern our strengths and weaknesses. Heh heh heh... heh..."
Hubris and overconfidence is a hell of a drug.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
the Federation knew basically nothing about the Kaylon race but were still all like "Sure, send us your ambassador so that you can learn everything about us while remaining mysterious yourselves. I sure hope you guys aren't hostiles abusing our trust in an attempt to discern our strengths and weaknesses. Heh heh heh... heh..."
Hubris and overconfidence is a hell of a drug.
It seems far, far less a case of overconfidence to me than simply a case of "either we let them do this and hopefully they play nice, or we don't let them do this and they handily whip our collective ass". There seem to be at least a few groups that the Union doesn't want to tangle with, so they hardly seem to think themselves as the king of the intergalactic food chain.
Anyway, my thinking for the next episode is that
Isaac disagrees with the Kaylon decision and is setting them up to have their forces destroyed in one big move via stuff he's learned from being with organics, forcing the Kaylons to surrender and see that killing all the organics is not a sound decision. Then after getting the fleet destroyed, he's going to give the Union the means to keep his people contained to one world so they can't be a threat to organics again.
I'm betting his people couldn't understand the idea of him having a dissenting opinion and lying about it, but he's going to exploit everything he's learned from organics to wreck the Kaylon plan.
Isaac is leaving breadcrumbs when he drops the picture. He knew that Ty would try to find him because he has been studying the boys constantly (playing strategy games with them is a particularly good reveal there). Notice that the chute opened up randomly when Ty hid there, and weird noises kept him from leaving. That is Isaac maneuvering Ty into position.
Isaac is playing double agent, trying to reveal his race's messy past to the Union and give them exactly one chance to survive. He is both a literal and figurative 3 dimensional chess master.
the Federation knew basically nothing about the Kaylon race but were still all like "Sure, send us your ambassador so that you can learn everything about us while remaining mysterious yourselves. I sure hope you guys aren't hostiles abusing our trust in an attempt to discern our strengths and weaknesses. Heh heh heh... heh..."
This is perfectly in keeping with the Star Trek lineage. Keep in mind that in the original series things like knowledge of Vulcan reproduction was not particularly widespread. TNG did the same kind of thing with the Trill - "Oh hey, here's this high stakes mediator oh gee whiz we didn't realize he had a slug living in him". For a bunch of space explorers, they often don't ask some of the obvious questions.
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Kind of how we tend to assign personality to inanimate objects, Hell he even pointed this out!
I think this is how they introduce Orville’s version of the Borg.
And if it is this will be pretty damn amazing.
Edit2:I don’t know what I was thinking, I meant Issac, not Kylon SMH
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I was also expecting Kaylons to not even look like Isaac and that he looked the way he did for humanoid benefit. But if Kaylons were built by humanoids, then that at least makes sense.
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Another thing I liked is that the different Kaylons looked different. It wasn't all the same costume, there were differences in design and material, but still enough uniformity to make them all look like the same people. Thought that was a nice touch.
While I agree this is what will probably happen, I really wish it wasn’t.
I think it's the ensemble nature of the thing. Captain Mercer isn't necessarily the focus of every episode, unlike, say, Family Guy, where some Seth Mcfarlane character is usually front and center.
Edit: And I like Seth Mcfarlane!
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2. The whole cake thing. Funny and then better when you realize Bortus is explaining how he needs his cake before someone shows up and ruins it. He's been in that situation before.
3. "We are totally getting fired."
Isaac is more like Lore than Data. Lore was given emotions and raised similar to a child, and instead of learning the lessons intended he learned how to hide in plain sight among the squishy insects he had nothing but contempt for. He could assimilate into a society fluidly but would be cruel and destructive once he did.
Data was different, though. He was not given emotions, but he also had something Lore didn't: his morals were hard coded and nearly inviolate. He couldn't assimilate into society easily, but was compelled to be a positive force in it regardless. Killing, even in self defense, was difficult for him. He killed Kivas Fajo only after great deliberation, when he finally decided it was morally right - Fajo would not kill Data but had killed and would continue to kill to control him. Even then he hesitated for a full five seconds, an eternity for a computer that can do quintillions of operations in that time.
I kinda wanted them to be like in that one Animatrix "Second Renaissance" where the robots show up to treat with the humans a second time looking like mechanical insectoids, having abandoned all pretense of catering to human sensibilities.
Steve can sing.
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Part two is just going to be Claire regrowing legs for 60 minutes.
they were trying to keep the Orville there and unaware for as long as possible, it was probably just to keep up appearances
Like... they're machines. They don't need to eat or sleep or breathe. They don't need to find rare "garden worlds". The number of uninhabited planets for them to go through would probably be nearly limitless.
But nope. It's a B-Line for Earth.
Next, I suppose, would be the other homeworlds, including the Krill.
I'm thinking of the point in Master of Orion (and other 4X games) when one feels confident about one's tech superiority to send out your elite doomstacks to cripple all your rivals.
Heck, that's most of Paris.
Honesty,
Also, what an episode! Damn. That was amazing.
Also, thinking there's kind of a speculation spoiler (kinda obvious, but still)
We could get a
Season 1 had some good SF episodes, but season 2 is becoming one of my favorite current SF shows
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If Isaac had done this last week, it wouldn't have been that surprising. He instantly memorized every subtle detail of the picture when he saw it, and would be able to perfectly recall (and probably even recreate it) it at any time. Even if he already understands the personal value of the picture (which he may not - you could get a whole C plot out of him learning that) he still may not understand the value of the physical copy separate from the image.
And that's of course assuming he actually cares.
I am firmly in the Isaac was altered upon being rebooted .
However, I still don't trust the writers enough to decide if these are goofs or hints.
Hubris and overconfidence is a hell of a drug.
It seems far, far less a case of overconfidence to me than simply a case of "either we let them do this and hopefully they play nice, or we don't let them do this and they handily whip our collective ass". There seem to be at least a few groups that the Union doesn't want to tangle with, so they hardly seem to think themselves as the king of the intergalactic food chain.
Anyway, my thinking for the next episode is that
I'm betting his people couldn't understand the idea of him having a dissenting opinion and lying about it, but he's going to exploit everything he's learned from organics to wreck the Kaylon plan.
Isaac is playing double agent, trying to reveal his race's messy past to the Union and give them exactly one chance to survive. He is both a literal and figurative 3 dimensional chess master.
This is perfectly in keeping with the Star Trek lineage. Keep in mind that in the original series things like knowledge of Vulcan reproduction was not particularly widespread. TNG did the same kind of thing with the Trill - "Oh hey, here's this high stakes mediator oh gee whiz we didn't realize he had a slug living in him". For a bunch of space explorers, they often don't ask some of the obvious questions.
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