Coworker got shafted with a raise. How can I help them?

FaranguFarangu I am a beardy manWith a beardy planRegistered User regular
So in last December, we got a new guy in our workgroup. He's the son of someone else in the company, nobody high level, and we pretty much got told "Yea here's this 19 year old kid, we know you've been asking for help lately." So we have him some simple things to do, not expecting a whole lot.

Turns out this guy is a quick study. He competently handled the early tasks we gave him, and showed himself ready to learn more. We gave him other responsibilities, to the point where he's filling the same role that I've held here the last few months. He's always ready to help with stuff, asks for direction when he encounters things he hasn't experienced...he's really become a strong team member.

This whole time, he's been doing so under an "administrative assistant" title, which is what he started as since we really had no clue how to handle him at first, or even that we were getting him on our team. Today, he finally got his promotion to the same position that I have now.

He's making almost 15K less than when I started at this company two years ago.

HR told him this was because he doesn't have a degree yet. Which to me, doesn't make sense as he's already been doing this job for at least three months, depending on what qualities some people consider as fully performing at this position. He's at least three semesters away from getting his Associate's Degree. Also, HR wouldn't put in writing that he'd get a matching bump when he finished that degree, although we are now getting into hearsay territory.

I want to help him, because he deserves equal pay for equal work. How can I do that? Is it customary for companies to dock pay that much because you don't have a degree that isn't even relevant to the work field you're currently in? (Mortgage servicing, if it helps)

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    You can't and shouldn't do anything.

    Degree weight is and remains a thing in industries. He will make less without a degree and that will not change, regardless of success. In federal/state/most county jobs that's a set in stone thing. In private sector its also considered a best practice to ensure those with the credentials still have them properly weighted.

    You speaking up for him will only hurt you and him. He needs to learn to leverage for his own pay increases, though in most white collar fields without a bachelor's degree that will be hard.

    ChiselphaneVishNubE.CoyoteMagic PinkAuralynxPsykomatyniczepherinHeirschussCambiataSmrtnikNightDragonspool32ShadowfireMoridin889jkylefultonMaguanoFiendishrabbit
  • ChiselphaneChiselphane Registered User regular
    Without knowing the particular rules and regulations of your company:

    Not only should you not do anything, it may even impact him negatively if they discover he's been discussing his salary with other employees, even if it's just you. And if it's not him discussing it, they might look at why it is you know what he's making.

    SiskaMoridin889
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    He sounds like the kind of person who will be absolutely fine in life. Revisit the issue with HR when he graduates, but from the sound of it, he will be your boss by then!

    Smrtnik
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 2017
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. While it's considered taboo to discuss salaries, I think it's incredibly important to do, but again I can't guarantee either of your keep your job.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    ceres on
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    QuidFeral
  • FaranguFarangu I am a beardy man With a beardy planRegistered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    zepherinHeirschussCambiataSmrtnikShadowfireMoridin889Aldo
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Farangu wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

    That paper represents hours of discipline, time, and money investment. On the flip side, if the job usually requires a BA and 4 years and they hire a guy off the street and pay him the same as someone who took the time and effort to get a BA and four years of experience, even if he is a natural talent that is going to cause resentment amongst those who took the time to get the credential. And, more often than not, the BA and 4 years crowd typically do the job better in the long run than without (presumably, which is why the requirement is listed on the job).

    Now, a good HR department will have credential/time scales to make things become equal over time. So [No education + 6 years] will lead to the same pay rate as [Bachelors +2 years] or some such. 8 years down the line, the guy who skipped school but remained loyally at the company will be on the same scale as someone who was hired later with the credential. This is usually the case in public sector, but not always elsewhere.

    zepherin
  • PyrianPyrian Registered User regular
    Companies don't like their employees discussing salaries because they don't want to lose underpaid talent - nothing better than getting more for less. You probably don't have much leverage here besides the willingness to write him a glowing recommendation. 'Course, if he were to "entirely on his own initiative" apply somewhere else and get a better offer, well...

    chrishallett83Man in the Mistsdispatch.oShadowfire-TalBlameless ClericMahnmutGnizmoL Ron Howard
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    While I agree pay rates should be able to be discussed openly, I am also aware that what Enc says about that topic, at least in the United States, is true: Management will flip the fuck out if they find out you've been discussing pay, and could absolutely view that as a reason to fire Farangu.

    Cambiata on
    Encchrishallett83E.CoyoteLostNinjadispatch.oMoridin889chromdomLovelyzepherinMagic PinkDhalphir
  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    This is how it should be. Enc's rule is how it actually is at most workplaces. I'd like to see some actual data supporting the notion that most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority and job code though. I don't think I've ever found that to be strictly adhered to, even in the largest corporations I've worked for.

    He is right that taking any action here will likely only lead to negative repercussions. Shitty, but true.

    Encchrishallett83Moridin889Ilpalakime
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I'm in a different industry than you. The only actual career jobs I've ever had, in order, was nurse technician, registered nurse, and certified registered nurse anesthetist.

    If this doesn't apply, just ignore it.

    I've always and will always speak openly about my salary and benefits. If for no other reason than I remember wishing people had told me years ago what I was getting myself into or out of. It shouldn't be a secret. I agree with @chrishallett83 . This is how people get fucked. I feel that if you're not willing to tell novices in your field what pitfalls to avoid and how they are currently getting fucked by the man then you're just as bad as the system (or owners) that are doing the fucking.

    But, full disclosure, by speaking openly about such things (at least in the United States) is how you'll get labeled as a trouble maker, etc. and possibly risk your own livelihood. No one likes letting the cat out of the bag.

    I disagree with almost everything else everyone has said in this thread, apart from @chrishallett83. If I had a subordinate (RN / SRNA) under me that was doing an equivalent job as a fully degree loaded individual not only would I tell that person they are getting fucked on salary, but I would also tell my supervisor that we were wrongly using an employee to do work above their paygrade.

    Again, the fallout of those comments would probably be swift, so think about what you really want to get into.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
    ceresMan in the MistsQuidEncdispatch.oFeralBouwsT
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    My pay is a matter of public record, as are those who work for me and those I work for. I agree entirely that this is not a bad thing and should be codified and standardized. That also isn't the standard across most workplaces in the US and best practices here are rarely followed outside of state and federal positions.

    Just because the pay is a matter of public record does not mean it is a matter for workplace debate, however. You should be able to find and be aware of company payscales. You should not discuss them with anyone but those four people. Because that is a great way to open the door for eventual termination.

    I mean, you might be able to cause a positive effect for someone down the line by sticking your neck out, but it likely won't be you or your employee you want to see succeed. Usually the folks that start things like Unions started in this very place with these problems and worked out from there. It certainly can be done. But what will likely happen in most right-to-work (read: right to fire) states is that you and your fellow employee will be fired and pay will only change if the rest of the employees at the company back you in a walk-out. Assuming you aren't all immediately fired, those who didn't start the problem (you and your employee friend) may reap the benefits of your sacrifice and have a codified pay scale as the company implements one to ensure future problems have a standardized and legally defensible response to this problem in the future.

    But you would need to be prepared to die on that hill for a very low chance of success (that gets lower the larger the company is).

    Enc on
    Cambiatazepherin
  • FaranguFarangu I am a beardy man With a beardy planRegistered User regular
    I appreciate all the advice given so far.

    Our company doesn't make any payscales publicly available. Nobody knows what anyone else is making. The only reason he knows about mine is because he asked me what I started at when he knew this promotion was a possibility, and I told him because not giving a 19 year old kid any ammo he can get on his first real pay negotiation would seem irresponsible to me; he would have been going in completely blind.

    That being said, I'm fully aware of the fact that this is a hill I cannot afford to die on: I have one toddler, another kid ready to come out any day, and am the primary income earner for the family

    I will have to settle for privately telling him to keep pushing for HR to give him something in writing that codifies when and how he gets pay increases.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Farangu wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

    The paper is relevant. That's the deal, it's why we tell people to get a degree. He's less valuable than you, end of story. You can't fix it and shouldn't... because your argument that the degree isn't worth anything is the argument for cancelling your raises or even giving you a pay cut. If your degree is worthless, then you are worth less.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    While I agree pay rates should be able to be discussed openly, I am also aware that what Enc says about that topic, at least in the United States, is true: Management will flip the fuck out if they find out you've been discussing pay, and could absolutely view that as a reason to fire Farangu.

    They can't fire you for discussing pay.

    A shitty manager may start finding reasons to fire you, however.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Farangu wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

    The paper is relevant. That's the deal, it's why we tell people to get a degree. He's less valuable than you, end of story. You can't fix it and shouldn't... because your argument that the degree isn't worth anything is the argument for cancelling your raises or even giving you a pay cut. If your degree is worthless, then you are worth less.

    Absolutely not. He's every bit as valuable as someone else able to do the job. If one of my people is mediocre at their job I don't care what they've studied beforehand. A degree can be a good arbiter of people that can get through a bunch of nonsense, but to declare that someone is less worthwhile for a job when they've clearly demonstrated they're every bit as good at it is nonsense. A person's worth should not summed up by a piece of paper even if it's the rubbish that various firms try to push.

    FeralEnc-TalDrDinosaurSir CarcasskimeBouwsTchrishallett83Pacificstar
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    While I agree pay rates should be able to be discussed openly, I am also aware that what Enc says about that topic, at least in the United States, is true: Management will flip the fuck out if they find out you've been discussing pay, and could absolutely view that as a reason to fire Farangu.

    They can't fire you for discussing pay.

    A shitty manager may start finding reasons to fire you, however.

    Unfortunately in a lot of states an employer can fire you for any reason at all short of protected exclusions. And even those are easily circumvented.

    EncFeralCelestialBadgerKetarCambiataLord Palingtondispatch.oCasually HardcoreLovelyIlpalakimeDronus86BouwsTchrishallett83
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    I tend to lean towards what Quid and ceres are saying. It is taboo to discuss salaries in the US, but we can't break that taboo without people who are brave enough to discuss pay anyway.

    A lot of the advice here is going to be highly contingent on your company culture and your state law. In some companies it would be totally permissible for you to march into a manager's office, say "John* is underpaid. He deserves a raise." In other companies, that would get both you and him fired.

    * I'm just gonna start calling your coworker "John." Cool? Cool.

    However, here is a general-purpose strategy that would work at most companies:

    A) Make sure you put in a good word for John with his manager and his manager's manager. It doesn't have to be particularly formal or a big deal. When John does something particularly well, just mention it in passing. "John has been cranking through escrow docs today!"

    B) After hours and off company property, John (or you and John together) should do research on what the reasonable salary ranges for his industry and position are. http://www.salary.com and http:///www.glassdoor.com are good places to start.

    C) Once you have a good sense of what reasonable salaries are for John's position, he needs to go and negotiate another raise on his own. Encourage him to stick up for himself. He can (and should) frame it as "I'm making less than industry median," not "I'm making less than Farangu." He should not bring up your name in any of these meetings at all. He needs to learn how to fight this battle on his own. If HR wants to pull the "you don't have a degree" card, that's fine. He can (and should) say "I'd like to get something in writing that says that once I complete my AA, I'll get a pay raise of $X."

    He's going to be timid about doing this because he's young, he's new, it's his first white collar job, etc. If I were you, I would encourage him (ideally after hours, and off company property) to be bold.

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  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    While I agree pay rates should be able to be discussed openly, I am also aware that what Enc says about that topic, at least in the United States, is true: Management will flip the fuck out if they find out you've been discussing pay, and could absolutely view that as a reason to fire Farangu.

    They can't fire you for discussing pay.

    A shitty manager may start finding reasons to fire you, however.

    If its in an employee manual or some of the paperwork they have you sign pre-employement then yes they can.

    I've had loads of problems when my subordinates talk about their pay with each other. Inevitably someone gets upset and comes to me and asks why they don't make as much. I can pull their file, cite certifications, re-read them their evaluations, note any disciplinary actions or coaching we've had to do with them (successfully or not), doesn't matter. They are still going to be mad because human beings don't like the idea of someone being 'better' than them.

    I've even had peers get very aggravated when I wouldn't tell them what I was paid because they suspected I was making more than them. They got very paranoid and it negatively affected their work performance. If your work is open and honest with you about starting pay ranges and any potential raise/bonus opportunities and explain to you why you are paid the amount that you are, it shouldn't be a problem.

    MichaelLCGnizmo
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Farangu wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

    The paper is relevant. That's the deal, it's why we tell people to get a degree. He's less valuable than you, end of story. You can't fix it and shouldn't... because your argument that the degree isn't worth anything is the argument for cancelling your raises or even giving you a pay cut. If your degree is worthless, then you are worth less.

    Absolutely not. He's every bit as valuable as someone else able to do the job. If one of my people is mediocre at their job I don't care what they've studied beforehand. A degree can be a good arbiter of people that can get through a bunch of nonsense, but to declare that someone is less worthwhile for a job when they've clearly demonstrated they're every bit as good at it is nonsense. A person's worth should not summed up by a piece of paper even if it's the rubbish that various firms try to push.

    I agree with you, but that is not the reality we live in. I don't even ask about degrees when I hire for my team, but I also don't pay people more if they have one because the degree is worthless!

    If you're in a situation where the person paying your salary thinks your degree has value, don't fk it up for yourself yo.

    Magic Pink
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    It might be worth it to encourage him to go for an applicable certification. They don't usually take nearly as long as an actual degree but do give you a piece of paper that shows you've met an industry standard.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.

    While I agree pay rates should be able to be discussed openly, I am also aware that what Enc says about that topic, at least in the United States, is true: Management will flip the fuck out if they find out you've been discussing pay, and could absolutely view that as a reason to fire Farangu.

    They can't fire you for discussing pay.

    A shitty manager may start finding reasons to fire you, however.

    If its in an employee manual or some of the paperwork they have you sign pre-employement then yes they can.

    I've had loads of problems when my subordinates talk about their pay with each other. Inevitably someone gets upset and comes to me and asks why they don't make as much. I can pull their file, cite certifications, re-read them their evaluations, note any disciplinary actions or coaching we've had to do with them (successfully or not), doesn't matter. They are still going to be mad because human beings don't like the idea of someone being 'better' than them.

    I've even had peers get very aggravated when I wouldn't tell them what I was paid because they suspected I was making more than them. They got very paranoid and it negatively affected their work performance. If your work is open and honest with you about starting pay ranges and any potential raise/bonus opportunities and explain to you why you are paid the amount that you are, it shouldn't be a problem.

    The National Labor Relations Act generally prohibits employers from terminating or otherwise disciplining employees for discussing their pay. Employers aren't even allowed to request that you not discuss it, that would be a violation. Of course the penalties are generally pretty slim, and again, the employer could find a different reason to start getting on your case.

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  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    Yeah it's (sadly) not really proactively enforced, but if an employer was stupid enough to explicitly fire you for discussing your pay you'd have a pretty easy lawsuit under the NLRA.

    Companies get away with telling people they can't because the protection isn't specifically enumerated (it's accepted as part of the general right to organize and form a union, discussing your pay is an integral precursor to that). But most of them aren't dumb enough to try and enforce the provision

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    It might be worth it to encourage him to go for an applicable certification. They don't usually take nearly as long as an actual degree but do give you a piece of paper that shows you've met an industry standard.

    This is an excellent goal for someone who's not even 20.

    QuidTofystedethFeralkime
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Let me tell you a story of working in a union shop: Once time, I thought my department was being shafted on premium pay, so I contacted a department in another state that does the same kind of premium work and tried to ask a few of them what their differential was. Most didn't respond, but the one that did told me I'm not allowed to ask them what they're paid. I was a little taken aback (because it's union, everything is public if I could find where it's published), but replied I just wanted to know what the differential was, not what they're paid overall. After a minute or two of no response, my supervisor walked over and asked me why I was asking about people's pay, and that I'm not allowed to do that. I explained to her also that I don't care what they're paid, I wanted to know about the differential. She said not to ask that, just look at the union contract.

    Eventually someone else from that department, who I'd done favors for in the past, pinged me and said, "I don't know what everyone's problem is, but the differential is X"

    So just to let that sink in, at a union shop I was reported to a supervisor for trying to talk about premium pay. Now I couldn't have been fired for that because union, but people still flipped the fuck out. (and our local union was in Texas, so despite me finding a discrepancy with the way premium was paid, they did exactly jack shit about it).

    So yes, people will flip the fuck out if you talk about pay. It's not fair, it's not right, but its what happens in the United States.

    Cambiata on
    EncMoridin889Magic Pink
  • NewblarNewblar Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    An individual's salary is not public even if you work in a union that publishes salary ranges. It sounds like they took it as if you were asking them what they were individually being paid. In my country for government jobs we put a classification on any individual's personal information including salary.

    Pay is very personal to some people. They may take it similarly to asking age, sexual orientation, relationship status (my personal pet peeve), political leanings, etc. I can tell someone my pay but they should not be asking me. Full stop, no exceptions.

    As to the original topic the best advice I can give is to stay out of it besides talking the them up to your bosses and HR. You've already helped them determine an anchor point which is quite useful. Negotiating is a skill they need to learn and it's better to learn while young. I once had some coworkers and guy at corporate push for a raise for me on a job. So to get them off his back my boss ambushed me one day with a salary discussion and low balled the fuck out of me offering 2%. I was blindsided and it put me in a bad spot for negotiating as it's kind of hard counter with a fair raise that would have been around 50%. On the plus side it was a good learning opportunity when the stakes were low.

    Newblar on
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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    one of the benefits you get as a federal employee is that while you are not paid a whole lot, at least your salary is based on a public wage schedule

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.
    This is a sort of catch 22. yes Pay rates should be public and it is good public policy, and there are laws that protect people from being fired, but there is definitely some behind the scenes retribution.

    However I've been in upper management meetings where this literally has been said.
    "Joe was complaining that Rick got a buck fiddy raise and he didn't. Looks like Rick and Joe won't be getting any more raises from now on."
    And that's exactly how that happened. They weren't fired, there wasn't any overt discrimination. But it super hurt both of them. Because they gave raises to everyone else. It was the only time I ever saw a spite raises before. It was kinda bizarre.

    zepherin on
    EncCambiata
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.
    This is a sort of catch 22. yes Pay rates should be public and it is good public policy, and there are laws that protect people from being fired, but there is definitely some behind the scenes retribution.

    However I've been in upper management meetings where this literally has been said.
    "Joe was complaining that Rick got a buck fiddy raise and he didn't. Looks like Rick and Joe won't be getting any more raises from now on."
    And that's exactly how that happened. They weren't fired, there wasn't any overt discrimination. But it super hurt both of them. Because they gave raises to everyone else. It was the only time I ever saw a spite raises before. It was kinda bizarre.

    Man. Every single time I learn something new about management, it's always about how even more shitty they can be then I thought possible.

    This is once again why, "let business/capitalism regulate itself!" blows my mind the older I get. Businesses should be legally obligated to publish pay rates across the board, ESPECIALLY what upper management gets paid.

    Also putting this back on topic: In a lot of industries, the only way to get a pay raise is to switch jobs, either by getting hired by another company or a different department. In the current business climate in the US, loyalty, dedication and skill are not rewarded.

    zepherinceresEncShadowfireQuidkimeNobodychrishallett83
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.
    This is a sort of catch 22. yes Pay rates should be public and it is good public policy, and there are laws that protect people from being fired, but there is definitely some behind the scenes retribution.

    However I've been in upper management meetings where this literally has been said.
    "Joe was complaining that Rick got a buck fiddy raise and he didn't. Looks like Rick and Joe won't be getting any more raises from now on."
    And that's exactly how that happened. They weren't fired, there wasn't any overt discrimination. But it super hurt both of them. Because they gave raises to everyone else. It was the only time I ever saw a spite raises before. It was kinda bizarre.

    Man. Every single time I learn something new about management, it's always about how even more shitty they can be then I thought possible.

    This is once again why, "let business/capitalism regulate itself!" blows my mind the older I get. Businesses should be legally obligated to publish pay rates across the board, ESPECIALLY what upper management gets paid.

    Also putting this back on topic: In a lot of industries, the only way to get a pay raise is to switch jobs, either by getting hired by another company or a different department. In the current business climate in the US, loyalty, dedication and skill are not rewarded.
    That will never be a law from a federal level, in a few states I could see that happening, but the money that runs congress will pretty much be uniformly against it.

    That being said, you are right the best way to get a big raise if you are legit underpaid is to switch companies. That initial negotiation is the biggest way to get a bump. Even when management agrees that someone is underpaid and they take actions to right it, it just boils some managers britches to give more than a 10% raise or a 15% raise. Especially if they haven't "paid their dues."

    Now different companies have different rules, I often have to pull site supervisors and other managers aside to correct certain behaviors that are counter productive or illegal. But it is not often done, and in larger companies there is often a HR sends a memo,and that is as far as they are responsible for something, and there is no follow up.

  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Cambiata wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Good rule to follow: Only people that should every discuss pay are the employee, their current budget-controlling manager, the HR rep in charge of salary, and the union rep (if applicable).

    If one of those isn't you, you should not be involved in the conversation. This is because open salary discussion leads to discord at every business (which is why most businesses codify salary based upon degree, credentialing, seniority, and job code). Even in an equitable workplace, open discussion of pay will make people feel inadequacy and maligned even if there is a fair and equitable pay structure. Getting involved in someone else's pay if you are not one of the four people in that earlier equation means you are directly taking agency to disrupt the workplace (which in a lot of places constitutes as sufficient grounds for termination).

    This is not to say your workplace or its hiring rules are fair or equitable. They could be horrendous and this guy could be getting screwed. But it is his (and his union rep if applicable) job to leverage his pay to be higher, not yours. Taking any action here will likely have negative repercussions for both of you.

    This is absolutely untrue. Pay rates should be common knowledge throughout the company. Keeping it secret, keeping it safe only furthers the company's goal to pay every employee as little as they can possibly get away with.
    This is a sort of catch 22. yes Pay rates should be public and it is good public policy, and there are laws that protect people from being fired, but there is definitely some behind the scenes retribution.

    However I've been in upper management meetings where this literally has been said.
    "Joe was complaining that Rick got a buck fiddy raise and he didn't. Looks like Rick and Joe won't be getting any more raises from now on."
    And that's exactly how that happened. They weren't fired, there wasn't any overt discrimination. But it super hurt both of them. Because they gave raises to everyone else. It was the only time I ever saw a spite raises before. It was kinda bizarre.

    Man. Every single time I learn something new about management, it's always about how even more shitty they can be then I thought possible.

    This is once again why, "let business/capitalism regulate itself!" blows my mind the older I get. Businesses should be legally obligated to publish pay rates across the board, ESPECIALLY what upper management gets paid.

    Also putting this back on topic: In a lot of industries, the only way to get a pay raise is to switch jobs, either by getting hired by another company or a different department. In the current business climate in the US, loyalty, dedication and skill are not rewarded.

    This is how it is in IT as far as I can tell. My husband talks about it a good bit. You need to change jobs once every couple years to see a pay raise because your company just isn't going to give it to you in any form. The risk is that if you find a pretty secure job now, your next might be awful.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
    Cambiata
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    In pretty much every field, lateral promotion is your best bet. The only way your current job will promote you in most places is if you have a better offer from another company.

    VishNubMoridin889Smrtnik
  • FaranguFarangu I am a beardy man With a beardy planRegistered User regular
    On a lark I looked up on glassdoor & salary.com our job position, and it must be more niche than I thought, because they don't have much on mortgage roles unless it's an originator, underwriter, or possibly escrow or credit processor.

    Lateral promotions didn't need to get trickier, life!

  • FaranguFarangu I am a beardy man With a beardy planRegistered User regular
    edited September 2017
    edit double post

    Farangu on
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    this whole thread is like an essay explaining why someone joined the communist party of america tbh

    i realize this doesn't answer your question, but, eat capitalism

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  • ThroThro [email protected] Registered User regular
    The degree is worth something, because people think it is worth something. Several places I've worked advertise how many bachelors, masters, etc. will be working on a project, along with a list of certifications.
    Being able to do this is worth money because some customers are impressed by this.

    It's also ok to want that as a customer; "John, who has a degree in X, will be handling your X work." Vs. "John, who we hired right out of highschool, turns out to be really good at X, so he will be handling your X work." I think more people would prefer the first John.

    Honestly all I can see to do here has been mentioned: be happy to offer up glowing recommendations and make sure to revisit once the Associates is done.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Does your company offer any sort tuition or certification reimbursement program? Even if they don't have an official one sometimes you can convince them to subsidize an employee to get a cert that they are already basically qualified for anyway. Then he can turn that paper into a raise.

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  • FaranguFarangu I am a beardy man With a beardy planRegistered User regular
    Does your company offer any sort tuition or certification reimbursement program? Even if they don't have an official one sometimes you can convince them to subsidize an employee to get a cert that they are already basically qualified for anyway. Then he can turn that paper into a raise.

    If they do it's not written anywhere, but it's a younger company so I doubt they have a policy like that in place. Also for our particular role there aren't really any applicable certs, so that's not really a factor in this case.

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited September 2017
    spool32 wrote: »
    Farangu wrote: »
    ceres wrote: »
    I really think you should, but I also don't know your industry or the culture of it, so I'm not necessarily the one you should listen to here. You might be able to advocate for having him officially added to your team with a proper title to reflect the work he does.

    In general, so much of what keeps people on a team is a really great direct supervisor. Be the best supervisor you can be and give him what he needs to succeed, and he'll want to stay.

    That's the thing that bugs me, he just got the same job title that I have, but they just shorted him a big chunk of money because he doesn't have that one paper. I'm just a peer, unfortunately.

    The paper is relevant. That's the deal, it's why we tell people to get a degree. He's less valuable than you, end of story. You can't fix it and shouldn't... because your argument that the degree isn't worth anything is the argument for cancelling your raises or even giving you a pay cut. If your degree is worthless, then you are worth less.

    Edit: Nevermind, I read on a bit.

    Anon the Felon on
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