After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I think if you ask someone out and they say no, that's where it ends. Refusing to accept no for an answer is where this all comes from.
After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
That's the correct answer. 100%.
So does almost every media portrayal of love have a guy who pressures and persists until the girl finally realizes that she's actually in love with the guy? Why is that the romanticized portrayal of courtship? I
I don't know. I'm currently guilt tripping myself over all the times I took The 'advice' of being persistent in the pursuit of a relationship. While I'm super grateful that I never took it to harassment or assault, I can't help but cry a little thinking about how uncomfortable I must of made a lot of people. Granted I was a teenager when most of this happened, but that shouldn't be an excuse. I really wish I can go back in time and tell my younger self to back off and think about the consequences of. I really wish by father taught me better instead of filling my head with misogynistic ideas. I really wish I wasn't such a dumbass back then .
I wouldn’t beat myself up over it. Very few things worth having in life just happen, they take persistence and work. If sales has taught me one thing it’s that if you give people all the time and space in the world you really won’t accomplish much; every once in a while something falls into your lap but 9 times out of 10 you’ve got to push a bit.
Initiative in life is necessary, that ends up being futile or self destructive if how you do it crosses boundaries you shouldn't be and you're not learning from the mistakes you made so you don't do it again.
Making mistakes is human but also a sign that you’re trying. Especially in today’s dating world, I’d say it’s better to try and err than be paralyzed by worry of potential errors. You’ll at some point cross someone’s boundaries and make someone uncomfortable and that’s shitty, but also the side effect of not being telepathic.
No risk no reward is as true an adage I’ve ever encountered.
It's not necessarily better to try and err if erring means raping someone. "No risk, no reward" also usually implies (or ought to suggest, at any rate) that the person seeking the reward is also bearing the risk, and while you could argue that the pursuer risks facing allegations, it seems that the real risk is borne by the person who might be overwhelmed/violated, which changes things to "your risk, my reward" which is not a great look.
The risk is fear of rejection or shaming, which is a very real thing and paralyzes a lot of people from reaching out and trying to get involved.
At some point the “meta” has to change for any of this to get better. Guys pursue, girls play hard to get is a shitty system because it encourages bad behaviour and dishonesty, but if you don’t play that system you’re unlikely to get anywhere. As it stands guys are expected to initiate, to show confidence, to brush off the first few objections and push a bit; women are expected to play coy lest they be branded as a slut. It’s super dumb, but it’s what we have.
With my fiancée I had to persist quite a bit, more than I normally would because that was my read. Years later we talk about it and yeah, she was pretty shy and conservative and felt it would be improper if she made it “easy”. It’s that sort of fucked up dynamic that makes the nasty feedback loop we have today.
After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
Yeah that was weird. No one accidentally rapes anyone.
I don't know. I'm currently guilt tripping myself over all the times I took The 'advice' of being persistent in the pursuit of a relationship. While I'm super grateful that I never took it to harassment or assault, I can't help but cry a little thinking about how uncomfortable I must of made a lot of people. Granted I was a teenager when most of this happened, but that shouldn't be an excuse. I really wish I can go back in time and tell my younger self to back off and think about the consequences of. I really wish by father taught me better instead of filling my head with misogynistic ideas. I really wish I wasn't such a dumbass back then .
I wouldn’t beat myself up over it. Very few things worth having in life just happen, they take persistence and work. If sales has taught me one thing it’s that if you give people all the time and space in the world you really won’t accomplish much; every once in a while something falls into your lap but 9 times out of 10 you’ve got to push a bit.
Initiative in life is necessary, that ends up being futile or self destructive if how you do it crosses boundaries you shouldn't be and you're not learning from the mistakes you made so you don't do it again.
Making mistakes is human but also a sign that you’re trying. Especially in today’s dating world, I’d say it’s better to try and err than be paralyzed by worry of potential errors. You’ll at some point cross someone’s boundaries and make someone uncomfortable and that’s shitty, but also the side effect of not being telepathic.
No risk no reward is as true an adage I’ve ever encountered.
It's not necessarily better to try and err if erring means raping someone. "No risk, no reward" also usually implies (or ought to suggest, at any rate) that the person seeking the reward is also bearing the risk, and while you could argue that the pursuer risks facing allegations, it seems that the real risk is borne by the person who might be overwhelmed/violated, which changes things to "your risk, my reward" which is not a great look.
The risk is fear of rejection or shaming, which is a very real thing and paralyzes a lot of people from reaching out and trying to get involved.
At some point the “meta” has to change for any of this to get better. Guys pursue, girls play hard to get is a shitty system because it encourages bad behaviour and dishonesty, but if you don’t play that system you’re unlikely to get anywhere. As it stands guys are expected to initiate, to show confidence, to brush off the first few objections and push a bit; women are expected to play coy lest they be branded as a slut. It’s super dumb, but it’s what we have.
With my fiancée I had to persist quite a bit, more than I normally would because that was my read. Years later we talk about it and yeah, she was pretty shy and conservative and felt it would be improper if she made it “easy”. It’s that sort of fucked up dynamic that makes the nasty feedback loop we have today.
You could have just started off with "With your permission, I should like to pursue your favor." and if you got a yes now you can do all the chasing you want until she calls it off.
But when does trying becomes harassing? After one no? Two no''s?
There aren't any simple or easy answers, I'm afraid.
Sometimes, something can be harassment before any amount of expressed resistance or refusal, like when there is a distinct power imbalance between the pursuer and pursued.
What you really ought to ask yourself is whether someone you're pursuing has obstacles to making their disinterest or discomfort known to you.
After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
That's the correct answer. 100%.
So does almost every media portrayal of love have a guy who pressures and persists until the girl finally realizes that she's actually in love with the guy? Why is that the romanticized portrayal of courtship? I
Because we have trained women to want exactly that. It's a vicious cycle.
If you look at modern female led comedy the overwhelming thread about men is that women want men to know and do what they want without them having to ask. They are sick of having to be the communicator in relationships etc, and want someone who just knows what to do. It's the female counterpart to men wanting a woman who can just understand how awesome their hobbies are.
Hard as it is to accept, if you could create a world where all men were utterly turned off by the word no, and would never pursue a woman again after she uttered it or indicated anything other than immediate complete enthusiasm then many women would be upset. Nobody wants to be harassed, but many people like to be pursued by someone who they actually want to catch them.
Hell, "He wore down my defences and now I love him" is literally what love is for many people. Love at first sight is rare and usually fleeting. Humans love what they are used to but still value.
Boys could be better educated to recognize tells when someone is not into what's happening.
It's not always going to be a loud no and it's absolutely our responsibility to be aware if someone is not comfortable with what is occurring.
"accidentally" to me is an excuse for being selfish and purposely unaware of the other person whom you're with.
I've seen comments like "I was so into it and she didn't resist or say no so..." and come on man.
Not OK. That's not an "accident" it's you not caring.
I don't know. I'm currently guilt tripping myself over all the times I took The 'advice' of being persistent in the pursuit of a relationship. While I'm super grateful that I never took it to harassment or assault, I can't help but cry a little thinking about how uncomfortable I must of made a lot of people. Granted I was a teenager when most of this happened, but that shouldn't be an excuse. I really wish I can go back in time and tell my younger self to back off and think about the consequences of. I really wish by father taught me better instead of filling my head with misogynistic ideas. I really wish I wasn't such a dumbass back then .
I wouldn’t beat myself up over it. Very few things worth having in life just happen, they take persistence and work. If sales has taught me one thing it’s that if you give people all the time and space in the world you really won’t accomplish much; every once in a while something falls into your lap but 9 times out of 10 you’ve got to push a bit.
Initiative in life is necessary, that ends up being futile or self destructive if how you do it crosses boundaries you shouldn't be and you're not learning from the mistakes you made so you don't do it again.
Making mistakes is human but also a sign that you’re trying. Especially in today’s dating world, I’d say it’s better to try and err than be paralyzed by worry of potential errors. You’ll at some point cross someone’s boundaries and make someone uncomfortable and that’s shitty, but also the side effect of not being telepathic.
No risk no reward is as true an adage I’ve ever encountered.
It's not necessarily better to try and err if erring means raping someone. "No risk, no reward" also usually implies (or ought to suggest, at any rate) that the person seeking the reward is also bearing the risk, and while you could argue that the pursuer risks facing allegations, it seems that the real risk is borne by the person who might be overwhelmed/violated, which changes things to "your risk, my reward" which is not a great look.
The risk is fear of rejection or shaming, which is a very real thing and paralyzes a lot of people from reaching out and trying to get involved.
At some point the “meta” has to change for any of this to get better. Guys pursue, girls play hard to get is a shitty system because it encourages bad behaviour and dishonesty, but if you don’t play that system you’re unlikely to get anywhere. As it stands guys are expected to initiate, to show confidence, to brush off the first few objections and push a bit; women are expected to play coy lest they be branded as a slut. It’s super dumb, but it’s what we have.
With my fiancée I had to persist quite a bit, more than I normally would because that was my read. Years later we talk about it and yeah, she was pretty shy and conservative and felt it would be improper if she made it “easy”. It’s that sort of fucked up dynamic that makes the nasty feedback loop we have today.
You could have just started off with "With your permission, I should like to pursue your favor." and if you got a yes now you can do all the chasing you want until she calls it off.
There seems to be some conflation with how dating should go (and seemingly does go according to people here) and how dating and personal interaction actually work in the real world for most people (who aren't the people here or really any online community with a specific social conformity).
If you chose women at random and threw that line at them they would either think you were a creep or they would laugh in your face much more often than they would take it seriously. That is the verbal equivalent of *tips trilby* m'lady. And even within the dynamic of how dating works for most people most people also aren't rapists or sexual assaulters and it's ridiculous to point to someone who had a fairly standard dating interaction and imply that they were one of those two categories because of that fairly standard interaction.
And Frankiedarling is correct, if you want the fairly standard dating activity to change then the underlying dynamic needs to change.
Pretty sure everyone here is a real person and if they date they date also real people. People also tend to talk to people before dating them instead of just oggling and propositioning. This isn't a Disney movie.
Boys could be better educated to recognize tells when someone is not into what's happening.
It's not always going to be a loud no and it's absolutely our responsibility to be aware if someone is not comfortable with what is occurring.
"accidentally" to me is an excuse for being selfish and purposely unaware of the other person whom you're with.
I've seen comments like "I was so into it and she didn't resist or say no so..." and come on man.
Not OK. That's not an "accident" it's you not caring.
It's less of an "accidental rape" and more "has no fucking clue what rape is".
Which is why affirmative consent should be the standard.
If consent has not been given, it has been denied, and no, "i thought she was into me" is not fucking consent.
Maybe we should make "don't rape" training courses mandatory for all men?
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Do y’all want to GSDT “how should men act around women when dating”? This is a neat discussion but it’s pretty far afield from “someone abuses their wealth and power to get away with predation for years thanks to a culture of fear and silence,” which is what this thread was intended to be about.
Pretty sure everyone here is a real person and if they date they date also real people. People also tend to talk to people before dating them instead of just oggling and propositioning. This isn't a Disney movie.
Yes, and people here likely aren't representative of all people. To say that your proposed scenario is the normal way most people initiate consensual romantic interaction, and if they don't then they have committed a sex crime, is ridiculous.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
I've gotten a hard no after dating someone for a month.
That's how dating works.
I mean, good for you?
But no, this is not what happens most of the time.
Dunno, sounds to me like certain people just aren't good at listening.
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But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
...yes they do?
They do all the time.
They sometimes happen to people who have already previously said yes!
Life is complicated!
The underlying problem is that in an environment where your attractiveness is greatly influenced by your perceived confidence, it’s hard to tell what a hard no is. I definitely agonized over this in my dating years. I even had someone I remained friends with after a hard no ask me later why I stopped pursuing them.
I’m of the opinion that the dynamic absolutely needs to change. How do you get men to respect and understand boundaries when “success” depends on them pushing and proving those boundaries? The only answer I see is you dont. As long as men are cast in the role of Pursuer this is by and large the result.
But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
I've gotten a hard no after dating someone for a month.
That's how dating works.
I mean, good for you?
But no, this is not what happens most of the time.
uh
my fellow
this is a weird assumption to make
you gonna back this up with some data or
because you got at least two people outright disagreeing with you, and those two people got some agrees on their posts, so if we're all gettin' anecdotal in here then welp
like here's the thing
I'm 34 and married but that was not always the case, naturally
i dated quite a bit in my misbegotten youth and it was pretty normal, especially if you openly communicated with the people you dated or were trying to date, to encounter very clear and no ambiguity "No"
either when just asking someone out, or seeing if they wanted to have sex, or seeing if they were down for specific sex acts (everyone's got their own interests and i'm no different), if you communicate clearly with the person you are interested in and don't try to pull some kind of shenanigan (singular) on them or obfuscate your intentions, you're statistically likely to run into some pretty clear and firm No's along the way.
After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
That's the correct answer. 100%.
So does almost every media portrayal of love have a guy who pressures and persists until the girl finally realizes that she's actually in love with the guy? Why is that the romanticized portrayal of courtship? I
Media portrayals of women and relationships is 90% of the reason we're stuck where we are.
But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
...yes they do?
They do all the time.
They sometimes happen to people who have already previously said yes!
Life is complicated!
The underlying problem is that in an environment where your attractiveness is greatly influenced by your perceived confidence, it’s hard to tell what a hard no is. I definitely agonized over this in my dating years. I even had someone I remained friends with after a hard no ask me later why I stopped pursuing them.
I’m of the opinion that the dynamic absolutely needs to change. How do you get men to respect and understand boundaries when “success” depends on them pushing and proving those boundaries? The only answer I see is you dont. As long as men are cast in the role of Pursuer this is by and large the result.
But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
...yes they do?
They do all the time.
They sometimes happen to people who have already previously said yes!
Life is complicated!
The underlying problem is that in an environment where your attractiveness is greatly influenced by your perceived confidence, it’s hard to tell what a hard no is. I definitely agonized over this in my dating years. I even had someone I remained friends with after a hard no ask me later why I stopped pursuing them.
I’m of the opinion that the dynamic absolutely needs to change. How do you get men to respect and understand boundaries when “success” depends on them pushing and proving those boundaries? The only answer I see is you dont. As long as men are cast in the role of Pursuer this is by and large the result.
Well-intentioned (or at least non-deliberately-predatory) behavior isn't at issue here (except maybe with EvilLore). There's a large gap between a bumbling try hard who just thinks he needs to push a little more to get the girl and the calculated targeting of vulnerable women. Both are products of the same sexual culture, but Weinstein and Cosby, et al weren't just trying to get laid.
After one no because that was the answer. I don't understand the concern about accidentally raping someone. Seems pretty easy to me to just not do that.
That's the correct answer. 100%.
So does almost every media portrayal of love have a guy who pressures and persists until the girl finally realizes that she's actually in love with the guy? Why is that the romanticized portrayal of courtship? I
Media portrayals of women and relationships is 90% of the reason we're stuck where we are.
Harvey Weinstein may have accumulated a lot of his wealth from "media portrayals of women and relationships", but that is coincidence based on his line of work. The system we have in place for the creation, accumulation, and distribution of wealth put Weinstein in a position where he could do what he did for so long with so few consequences. And the system we have to assess allegations, apportion responsibility and assign consequences makes it very difficult for accusers to stay the course. All of those factors make significant contributions to the current state of affairs, so I disagree that 90% of the reason we're here is media portrayals of women and relationships.
Here are some examples of hard no's I have personally received in my lifetime. These are real! I mean, they're anecdotal, but since ain't nobody is posting actual statistical data or nothin', why not!
- "Hey, you want to go up to my hotel room and fool around?" "...yeah, no. I like you, Matt, but no." "Okay, cool."
- "Did you want to grab coffee sometime?" "Eeech, not really? I'm not... dude, no." "Oh, ok. I just thought... alright, cool."
- "You wanna dance?" "No thanks, I'm just here with my friends." "Aight."
- "Is it alright if I kiss you?" "Uhhh... that'd feel weird. I'd rather not, no." "Alright, no big deal."
Fun fact! That last one was a question being asked of a woman I was literally having sex with at the time. No, she was not a prostitute. But she was a queer friend of mine who was still trying to figure out if she was into dudes at all and so we were kinda experimenting with that. Being cogent of that, I asked her if she'd be comfortable with that and her honest answer was no, she wasn't, and I respected that. Somehow I managed to respect the wishes of woman that I not kiss her while I consensually had my dick in her. It wasn't that difficult or confusing.
Well-intentioned (or at least non-deliberately-predatory) behavior isn't at issue here (except maybe with EvilLore). There's a large gap between a bumbling try hard who just thinks he needs to push a little more to get the girl and the calculated targeting of vulnerable women. Both are products of the same sexual culture, but Weinstein and Cosby, et al weren't just trying to get laid.
Evilore's behavior was absolutely predatory if it went down how the victim said it did.
If you look at modern female led comedy the overwhelming thread about men is that women want men to know and do what they want without them having to ask. They are sick of having to be the communicator in relationships etc, and want someone who just knows what to do. It's the female counterpart to men wanting a woman who can just understand how awesome their hobbies are.
No, it's women pointing out that men, on average, are crap at emotional labor - things like getting to know about people, remembering birthdays, maintaining relationships, etc. And the thing to remember is that women get that burden in all spheres - in the workplace, women are routinely saddled with performing the emotional labor that keeps the office running.
Hard as it is to accept, if you could create a world where all men were utterly turned off by the word no, and would never pursue a woman again after she uttered it or indicated anything other than immediate complete enthusiasm then many women would be upset. Nobody wants to be harassed, but many people like to be pursued by someone who they actually want to catch them.
They'll get over it, and learn that being forthright is a virtue. Meanwhile, all the other women who are dealing with unwanted advances and harassment wouldn't have to do so anymore. One of the things that made dating go easier for me was realizing that I wanted to be with people who wanted to be with me and engage with me, because it signaled that they enjoyed my company.
Hell, "He wore down my defences and now I love him" is literally what love is for many people. Love at first sight is rare and usually fleeting. Humans love what they are used to but still value.
That's not love, that's societally condoned Stockholm syndrome. The answer to toxic definitions of love is to repudiate them.
This is a silly argument because you're both making good points that would have a positive effect on the issue and neither would prevent the other from helping, so it doesn't really make sense to argue who's solution works better.
Men learning to deal better with women, and be more confident and straightforward about what they want, which makes it easier for the woman to be straightforward and confident about what they want (or do not want) is a good thing.
Society examining itself and changing the way we position the sexes in relationships, and the value places on female vs male sexuality is also a good thing.
I found this to be an insightful read about a woman's encounter with Elie Wiesel.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but my initial immediate thought upon seeing the tweet was (as someone who had read and been quite moved by his book) to be skeptical.
Which is a bullshit thought.
It might be because it's natural to immediately think that way about someone who you consider to be a respected member of society, it might be because doing something like that would never occur to me, but I would have hoped that my brain at this point would have been trained to avoid that immediate skepticism. No one should be put on such a pedestal that your immediate thought is to dismiss a victim's suffering.
But wait — we haven’t even gotten to the list of potential effects on me. After writing a draft of this, I showed my husband and some friends. A selection of their responses mirrored my own reservations: Are you sure you want to do this? You don’t want this to hurt your career. You’ll have to deal with your kids’ reactions. You could write it and maybe have some people who you’re close to read it so you can get it off your chest instead of having everyone know. That’s a lot to put out there. You know that people will be talking about you and it’s not going to be nice? What’s the point, all these years later? Does your ex-husband know you’re going to write this? You should remove this paragraph, that sentence, and that paragraph because you don’t want people to think about you in connection to things like that. Ok, publish it, but not on your professional blog because you need people to take you seriously (surprise! this is seriously my professional blog). Would you consider publishing it without his name? Would you consider publishing it without your name? You need to make sure people will still want to work with you. Don’t write about that part — they’ll dismiss you as crazy. I support you no matter what, but be prepared for serious backlash.
They said these things because they love me and want to protect me from the pain and destruction of backlash, which can be just as bad or worse than the original offense. Women, often lacking in power, include this in their calculations when they decide to say nothing. Bizarrely, the same women are so powerful that their mere speech could cause infrastructure to collapse: careers and companies that have been built, friendships and families that are depended upon, religious institutions and their leaders who are meaningful to so many, sports teams that have devoted fans and income from advertisers, young men with promising futures, old men with legacies. Backlash is a mechanism to hold up infrastructure.
These are all things that someone must consider before they come forward.
The least I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt.
The thing is, a lot of the actually predatory dudes, men like Weinstein and Evilore and Harry Knowles and so on, they actually use the hand-wringing of not-necessarily-predatory-but-just-kinda-anxious dudes as a cover.
Like, when men shift the conversation away from actual rapists, predators, sexual harassers, etc. to be about how they are afraid and anxious about how going after these guys might affect them, they provide "soft cover" for these assholes.
Nick Robinson is an excellent example. Nick Robinson for years got away with being a serial sexual harasser and gross creeper by adopting an outward persona of a fawning softboy who couldn't possibly be harmful, he's sweet and kind and loves anime and video games and he's so in touch with his feminine side and he's here for you as an ally, ladies.
He exploited that as a cover to be an absolute fucking creep, but what's worse is that when he got fucking caught, there's a lot of other dudes many of whom (but not all) who aren't necessarily fucking creeps but are similar to Nick in terms of the fact that they might self-identify as softboys or by many of the character traits that Nick ascribed to himself, and as a result feel the need to defend aspects of the shit that Nick used as cover as if their very identity is under attack and afraid that people who perceive them as doing the same purely as cover for malice.
So, like... maybe self-examine why when this shit comes up, you immediately hand-wring about "but what about me?"
Is it just because you are a man? Is that enough? Some of y'all doing the maximum twisting in this thread aren't even single by your own admission so your potential for personally running afoul of some potential new over-zealous social norm that you're worried might unfairly slag men is... fairly minimal.
Please consider that you are acting as a shield for these guys, willingly or not. They rely on you to man the battlements when this kind of stuff happens and say "But what about poor innocent shy guys who just don't know how to talk to girls?!" when the conversation is about serial rapists.
I found this to be an insightful read about a woman's encounter with Elie Wiesel.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but my initial immediate thought upon seeing the tweet was (as someone who had read and been quite moved by his book) to be skeptical.
Which is a bullshit thought.
It might be because it's natural to immediately think that way about someone who you consider to be a respected member of society, it might be because doing something like that would never occur to me, but I would have hoped that my brain at this point would have been trained to avoid that immediate skepticism. No one should be put on such a pedestal that your immediate thought is to dismiss a victim's suffering.
The article on Medium touches on this idea:
Conversely, one might hope, good people don’t do bad things.
I think this is a particularly pernicious and dangerous idea.
People are complicated. Someone can legitimately do good works and earn praise for those works, and also do bad things. A common thread in many of the narratives that people have put out there is an initial and paralyzing sense of shock at what is going on, because they just expected things to be normal and good, and couldn't conceive of things going badly. I hope that with all of the awareness being generated now, people will be better-equipped to recognize bad or dangerous situations based on what a person is doing, as opposed to that person's reputation.
Right now I am particularly glad I never put my foot in the arena. I would probably have hurt someone and ruined both our lives. I say if you're going to try to find companionship, do it prior to getting an influential position.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Right now I am particularly glad I never put my foot in the arena. I would probably have hurt someone and ruined both our lives. I say if you're going to try to find companionship, do it prior to getting an influential position.
The "ruined lives" narrative is also one that I think people should consider walking away from. One thing I'm learning from the various people sharing their #metoo stories is that even awful harassment and abuse won't always ruin someone's life. McKayla Maroney was abused for years by Larry Nassar, and still earned a silver and gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. The abuse she suffered was awful, and her life has undoubtedly been worsened, but saying that her life has been ruined just devalues her considerable accomplishments. Plenty of people experience harassment and abuse and may suffer some ongoing torment as a result, but I see no reason to think of their lives as ruined simply because of the sexual nature of the violation or boundary crossing. There are plenty of examples of lives ruined by harassment or assault, it's just not an automatic outcome.
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Women shouldn't have to worry that "did he really get it this time?"
That's the correct answer. 100%.
So does almost every media portrayal of love have a guy who pressures and persists until the girl finally realizes that she's actually in love with the guy? Why is that the romanticized portrayal of courtship? I
The risk is fear of rejection or shaming, which is a very real thing and paralyzes a lot of people from reaching out and trying to get involved.
At some point the “meta” has to change for any of this to get better. Guys pursue, girls play hard to get is a shitty system because it encourages bad behaviour and dishonesty, but if you don’t play that system you’re unlikely to get anywhere. As it stands guys are expected to initiate, to show confidence, to brush off the first few objections and push a bit; women are expected to play coy lest they be branded as a slut. It’s super dumb, but it’s what we have.
With my fiancée I had to persist quite a bit, more than I normally would because that was my read. Years later we talk about it and yeah, she was pretty shy and conservative and felt it would be improper if she made it “easy”. It’s that sort of fucked up dynamic that makes the nasty feedback loop we have today.
One. even moreso if there's a power disparity between you and the other person
Yeah that was weird. No one accidentally rapes anyone.
But since hard 'no's don't really happen, its kinda useless advice to give.
You could have just started off with "With your permission, I should like to pursue your favor." and if you got a yes now you can do all the chasing you want until she calls it off.
There aren't any simple or easy answers, I'm afraid.
Sometimes, something can be harassment before any amount of expressed resistance or refusal, like when there is a distinct power imbalance between the pursuer and pursued.
What you really ought to ask yourself is whether someone you're pursuing has obstacles to making their disinterest or discomfort known to you.
Because we have trained women to want exactly that. It's a vicious cycle.
If you look at modern female led comedy the overwhelming thread about men is that women want men to know and do what they want without them having to ask. They are sick of having to be the communicator in relationships etc, and want someone who just knows what to do. It's the female counterpart to men wanting a woman who can just understand how awesome their hobbies are.
Hard as it is to accept, if you could create a world where all men were utterly turned off by the word no, and would never pursue a woman again after she uttered it or indicated anything other than immediate complete enthusiasm then many women would be upset. Nobody wants to be harassed, but many people like to be pursued by someone who they actually want to catch them.
Hell, "He wore down my defences and now I love him" is literally what love is for many people. Love at first sight is rare and usually fleeting. Humans love what they are used to but still value.
I've gotten a hard no after dating someone for a month.
That's how dating works.
...yes they do?
They do all the time.
They sometimes happen to people who have already previously said yes!
Life is complicated!
It's not always going to be a loud no and it's absolutely our responsibility to be aware if someone is not comfortable with what is occurring.
"accidentally" to me is an excuse for being selfish and purposely unaware of the other person whom you're with.
I've seen comments like "I was so into it and she didn't resist or say no so..." and come on man.
Not OK. That's not an "accident" it's you not caring.
There seems to be some conflation with how dating should go (and seemingly does go according to people here) and how dating and personal interaction actually work in the real world for most people (who aren't the people here or really any online community with a specific social conformity).
If you chose women at random and threw that line at them they would either think you were a creep or they would laugh in your face much more often than they would take it seriously. That is the verbal equivalent of *tips trilby* m'lady. And even within the dynamic of how dating works for most people most people also aren't rapists or sexual assaulters and it's ridiculous to point to someone who had a fairly standard dating interaction and imply that they were one of those two categories because of that fairly standard interaction.
And Frankiedarling is correct, if you want the fairly standard dating activity to change then the underlying dynamic needs to change.
I mean, good for you?
But no, this is not what happens most of the time.
Which is why affirmative consent should be the standard.
If consent has not been given, it has been denied, and no, "i thought she was into me" is not fucking consent.
Maybe we should make "don't rape" training courses mandatory for all men?
Yes, and people here likely aren't representative of all people. To say that your proposed scenario is the normal way most people initiate consensual romantic interaction, and if they don't then they have committed a sex crime, is ridiculous.
Dunno, sounds to me like certain people just aren't good at listening.
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The underlying problem is that in an environment where your attractiveness is greatly influenced by your perceived confidence, it’s hard to tell what a hard no is. I definitely agonized over this in my dating years. I even had someone I remained friends with after a hard no ask me later why I stopped pursuing them.
I’m of the opinion that the dynamic absolutely needs to change. How do you get men to respect and understand boundaries when “success” depends on them pushing and proving those boundaries? The only answer I see is you dont. As long as men are cast in the role of Pursuer this is by and large the result.
Prove it.
uh
my fellow
this is a weird assumption to make
you gonna back this up with some data or
because you got at least two people outright disagreeing with you, and those two people got some agrees on their posts, so if we're all gettin' anecdotal in here then welp
like here's the thing
I'm 34 and married but that was not always the case, naturally
i dated quite a bit in my misbegotten youth and it was pretty normal, especially if you openly communicated with the people you dated or were trying to date, to encounter very clear and no ambiguity "No"
either when just asking someone out, or seeing if they wanted to have sex, or seeing if they were down for specific sex acts (everyone's got their own interests and i'm no different), if you communicate clearly with the person you are interested in and don't try to pull some kind of shenanigan (singular) on them or obfuscate your intentions, you're statistically likely to run into some pretty clear and firm No's along the way.
Media portrayals of women and relationships is 90% of the reason we're stuck where we are.
b-being told... no?
is a hard no?
this isn't
hard
i don't
what
I know right? Like you said, life be complicated.
Harvey Weinstein may have accumulated a lot of his wealth from "media portrayals of women and relationships", but that is coincidence based on his line of work. The system we have in place for the creation, accumulation, and distribution of wealth put Weinstein in a position where he could do what he did for so long with so few consequences. And the system we have to assess allegations, apportion responsibility and assign consequences makes it very difficult for accusers to stay the course. All of those factors make significant contributions to the current state of affairs, so I disagree that 90% of the reason we're here is media portrayals of women and relationships.
- "Hey, you want to go up to my hotel room and fool around?" "...yeah, no. I like you, Matt, but no." "Okay, cool."
- "Did you want to grab coffee sometime?" "Eeech, not really? I'm not... dude, no." "Oh, ok. I just thought... alright, cool."
- "You wanna dance?" "No thanks, I'm just here with my friends." "Aight."
- "Is it alright if I kiss you?" "Uhhh... that'd feel weird. I'd rather not, no." "Alright, no big deal."
Fun fact! That last one was a question being asked of a woman I was literally having sex with at the time. No, she was not a prostitute. But she was a queer friend of mine who was still trying to figure out if she was into dudes at all and so we were kinda experimenting with that. Being cogent of that, I asked her if she'd be comfortable with that and her honest answer was no, she wasn't, and I respected that. Somehow I managed to respect the wishes of woman that I not kiss her while I consensually had my dick in her. It wasn't that difficult or confusing.
Evilore's behavior was absolutely predatory if it went down how the victim said it did.
No, it's women pointing out that men, on average, are crap at emotional labor - things like getting to know about people, remembering birthdays, maintaining relationships, etc. And the thing to remember is that women get that burden in all spheres - in the workplace, women are routinely saddled with performing the emotional labor that keeps the office running.
They'll get over it, and learn that being forthright is a virtue. Meanwhile, all the other women who are dealing with unwanted advances and harassment wouldn't have to do so anymore. One of the things that made dating go easier for me was realizing that I wanted to be with people who wanted to be with me and engage with me, because it signaled that they enjoyed my company.
That's not love, that's societally condoned Stockholm syndrome. The answer to toxic definitions of love is to repudiate them.
Men learning to deal better with women, and be more confident and straightforward about what they want, which makes it easier for the woman to be straightforward and confident about what they want (or do not want) is a good thing.
Society examining itself and changing the way we position the sexes in relationships, and the value places on female vs male sexuality is also a good thing.
Which one is better? Who cares, lets do both!
I found this to be an insightful read about a woman's encounter with Elie Wiesel.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but my initial immediate thought upon seeing the tweet was (as someone who had read and been quite moved by his book) to be skeptical.
Which is a bullshit thought.
It might be because it's natural to immediately think that way about someone who you consider to be a respected member of society, it might be because doing something like that would never occur to me, but I would have hoped that my brain at this point would have been trained to avoid that immediate skepticism. No one should be put on such a pedestal that your immediate thought is to dismiss a victim's suffering.
These are all things that someone must consider before they come forward.
The least I can do is give them the benefit of the doubt.
Like, when men shift the conversation away from actual rapists, predators, sexual harassers, etc. to be about how they are afraid and anxious about how going after these guys might affect them, they provide "soft cover" for these assholes.
Nick Robinson is an excellent example. Nick Robinson for years got away with being a serial sexual harasser and gross creeper by adopting an outward persona of a fawning softboy who couldn't possibly be harmful, he's sweet and kind and loves anime and video games and he's so in touch with his feminine side and he's here for you as an ally, ladies.
He exploited that as a cover to be an absolute fucking creep, but what's worse is that when he got fucking caught, there's a lot of other dudes many of whom (but not all) who aren't necessarily fucking creeps but are similar to Nick in terms of the fact that they might self-identify as softboys or by many of the character traits that Nick ascribed to himself, and as a result feel the need to defend aspects of the shit that Nick used as cover as if their very identity is under attack and afraid that people who perceive them as doing the same purely as cover for malice.
So, like... maybe self-examine why when this shit comes up, you immediately hand-wring about "but what about me?"
Is it just because you are a man? Is that enough? Some of y'all doing the maximum twisting in this thread aren't even single by your own admission so your potential for personally running afoul of some potential new over-zealous social norm that you're worried might unfairly slag men is... fairly minimal.
Please consider that you are acting as a shield for these guys, willingly or not. They rely on you to man the battlements when this kind of stuff happens and say "But what about poor innocent shy guys who just don't know how to talk to girls?!" when the conversation is about serial rapists.
I think this is a particularly pernicious and dangerous idea.
People are complicated. Someone can legitimately do good works and earn praise for those works, and also do bad things. A common thread in many of the narratives that people have put out there is an initial and paralyzing sense of shock at what is going on, because they just expected things to be normal and good, and couldn't conceive of things going badly. I hope that with all of the awareness being generated now, people will be better-equipped to recognize bad or dangerous situations based on what a person is doing, as opposed to that person's reputation.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The "ruined lives" narrative is also one that I think people should consider walking away from. One thing I'm learning from the various people sharing their #metoo stories is that even awful harassment and abuse won't always ruin someone's life. McKayla Maroney was abused for years by Larry Nassar, and still earned a silver and gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. The abuse she suffered was awful, and her life has undoubtedly been worsened, but saying that her life has been ruined just devalues her considerable accomplishments. Plenty of people experience harassment and abuse and may suffer some ongoing torment as a result, but I see no reason to think of their lives as ruined simply because of the sexual nature of the violation or boundary crossing. There are plenty of examples of lives ruined by harassment or assault, it's just not an automatic outcome.