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Twitter Continues To Have A [Twitter] Problem

2456783

Posts

  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    It's a collective action problem, for one, so this answer is bullshit. And secondly, like the President of the motherfucking United States runs foreign policy out of twitter. And that's just the start. So, no, it's not going to become irrelevant any time soon.

    The idea that if a bunch of women just walk away from the platform it's all gonna go away is utter bullshit.

    No, not just "a bunch of women". That's you offloading your responsibility onto the victims.

    edit: Look, you can't just shrug and use "collective action problem!" as an excuse to personally do nothing

    Daedalus on
    discriderHefflingSpaten OptimatorApothe0sisElldren
  • agoajagoaj Top Tier No FearRegistered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    I had no idea that "nazi flag" existed, and pretty much makes their inaction entirely inexcusable.

    How broad is it applied? They may have only done the minimum to meet the laws and just hide accounts that say nazi keywords, including false positives like people who complain about or explain about nazis.
    Is there any more info on this or how other sites comply?

    qnu0EMk.png
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Have they ever completely blocked/banned a huge swath of people? I see that if you've got a German/French IP (perhaps from a lawsuit/law?) they're blocked, but is there any evidence that they've completely removed others? Perhaps it's not in their best interest to completely block a not-insignificant amount of people from using their service? As mentioned Twitter is already bleeding money right? So if they start completely removing people then it doesn't look good for their business. It's unfortunate but they're a business.

    Depends who their market is. If they want the Neo nazi, white supremacist, racist crowd that's the right tactic - if they want everyone else, that's what's going to show the slightest glimmer that audience should care about being on that platform.

    If that's the case then why, as a business, would you even market to such a small subset of your overall base? Even if you 100% agree with their bullshit. If you're bleeding red you can't afford to not market to the larger portion. Although this IS Twitter so maybe it really is just a shit-run business that's somehow managed to stay afloat.

    That's my guess.

    We saw the same issue with YouTube and the Adpocalypse, and with Reddit and the hate subreddits - all these SV darlings keep putting the albatross of bigotry around their neck even when it's clear to everyone that it's killing them.

    At this point, one has to wonder if there's more going on, especially in light of reports of white nationalists recruiting in the tech community and how all sorts of people funneled information and targets to Breitbart and white supremacists.

    (That last link could be a thread on its own.)

    Oh yeah, the whole Milo report. It runs all over his connections with the depths of the Alt-Right and how he's basically Bannon's ambassador to them. All of that is not surprising, BUT the interesting bit is how several journalists were actually deep cover agents for Team Shitlord, reporting everything to Milo. Didn't thought that it deserved it's own thread though.

    On the topic, Twitter gave a BS excuse. They ARE covering for Weinstein, if I had to bet they got a call from Ben Affleck's (by now known Weinstein's accomplice) lawyer to delete those tweets or else. Disgusting. There's this trend of sexual abusers taking on the feminism mantle to hide their crimes (see: Joss Wheldon).

    TryCatcher on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    It's a collective action problem, for one, so this answer is bullshit. And secondly, like the President of the motherfucking United States runs foreign policy out of twitter. And that's just the start. So, no, it's not going to become irrelevant any time soon.

    The idea that if a bunch of women just walk away from the platform it's all gonna go away is utter bullshit.

    No, not just "a bunch of women". That's you offloading your responsibility onto the victims.

    What are you even talking about? This makes no sense. "Offloading responsibility onto the victims" what?

    You claimed the platform doesn't matter and if people just left it would go away. That's bullshit. The POTUS communicates through twitter. The platform matters, no matter how much anyone might wish it didn't.

    QuidNobeardiTunesIsEviljmcdonaldMegaMekDedwrekkaKristmas KthulhuLord_Asmodeus
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    agoaj wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    I had no idea that "nazi flag" existed, and pretty much makes their inaction entirely inexcusable.

    How broad is it applied? They may have only done the minimum to meet the laws and just hide accounts that say nazi keywords, including false positives like people who complain about or explain about nazis.
    Is there any more info on this or how other sites comply?

    I don't believe it is. It's just something they do when governments tell them to do it.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    MySpace collapsed because Facebook undercut it through building up a base in colleges, then using that base to expand into society at large. Which comes back, once again, to why the "let's just move away" argument doesn't work - network effects. You, alone, moving away will do nothing. You would need to effect a mass migration from from service. The problem is, Twitter is where all the users are, where all the conversations are happening. And that pulls people into its orbit. Again, MySpace didn't jus "fail", it had a competitor build up its own network, which let it pull people away.

    Look, you can walk away from Omelas, or you can whine and keep using their service. Talk is cheap. The former has a small but nonzero positive effect, the latter has zero positive effect.

    So, here's the thing - I don't have a Twitter account, in large part because of the company. So I've already "walked away". But because of how network effects work, I can't just ignore Twitter. So instead of trying to shame people, try to understand how network effects and collective action problems work, and why that means that one person walking away isn't enough.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    kimeKetBrashrykeMan in the MistsQuidFencingsaxNobeardiTunesIsEvilGennenalyse RuebenAistanMegaMekElldrenDedwrekkaKristmas KthulhuBrovid HasselsmofLord_Asmodeus
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    It's a collective action problem, for one, so this answer is bullshit. And secondly, like the President of the motherfucking United States runs foreign policy out of twitter. And that's just the start. So, no, it's not going to become irrelevant any time soon.

    The idea that if a bunch of women just walk away from the platform it's all gonna go away is utter bullshit.

    No, not just "a bunch of women". That's you offloading your responsibility onto the victims.

    What are you even talking about? This makes no sense. "Offloading responsibility onto the victims" what?

    You claimed the platform doesn't matter and if people just left it would go away. That's bullshit. The POTUS communicates through twitter. The platform matters, no matter how much anyone might wish it didn't.

    The platform matters and will continue to matter as long as people don't leave. So, why aren't you leaving?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    It's a collective action problem, for one, so this answer is bullshit. And secondly, like the President of the motherfucking United States runs foreign policy out of twitter. And that's just the start. So, no, it's not going to become irrelevant any time soon.

    The idea that if a bunch of women just walk away from the platform it's all gonna go away is utter bullshit.

    No, not just "a bunch of women". That's you offloading your responsibility onto the victims.

    What are you even talking about? This makes no sense. "Offloading responsibility onto the victims" what?

    You claimed the platform doesn't matter and if people just left it would go away. That's bullshit. The POTUS communicates through twitter. The platform matters, no matter how much anyone might wish it didn't.

    The platform matters and will continue to matter as long as people don't leave. So, why aren't you leaving?

    Because me leaving doesn't matter. Nobody cares about my non-existent twitter account. As I've already explained multiple times and you keep evading.

    It's a collective action problem and the big players have most of the votes here. Because as long as they use twitter, everybody else will pay attention because that's where the information is.

    When the nuking of North Korea may be announced on twitter first, the idea that it's just gonna fade away because you or I stop paying attention to the platform is laughable.

    AngelHedgieAridholKetBrakimeFencingsaxGennenalyse RuebenAegeriMegaMekKristmas KthulhuLord_Asmodeus
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    XaquinFANTOMAS
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    Why do you assume anyone here has an account instead of just reading the content on the platform?

    And we are looking at you like your argument is bullcrap for the reasons people keep saying. Because just because I'm not on twitter or your not on twitter or AngelHedgie's not on twitter doesn't mean twitter suddenly doesn't matter.

    Twitter is it's own weird little world but it's one where a ton of the most important organizations and people around communicate on. And ignoring twitter doesn't make them stop doing that.

    Kristmas KthulhuJulius
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    Why do you assume anyone here has an account instead of just reading the content on the platform?

    And we are looking at you like your argument is bullcrap for the reasons people keep saying. Because just because I'm not on twitter or your not on twitter or AngelHedgie's not on twitter doesn't mean twitter suddenly doesn't matter.

    Twitter is it's own weird little world but it's one where a ton of the most important organizations and people around communicate on. And ignoring twitter doesn't make them stop doing that.

    yeah, but if him, you, me, that other guy, and 48,000 other people all of a sudden don't use twitter, than it's a big deal. and the vast majority of people could stop using twitter with very little consequence.

  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Daedalus wrote: »
    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    MySpace collapsed because Facebook undercut it through building up a base in colleges, then using that base to expand into society at large. Which comes back, once again, to why the "let's just move away" argument doesn't work - network effects. You, alone, moving away will do nothing. You would need to effect a mass migration from from service. The problem is, Twitter is where all the users are, where all the conversations are happening. And that pulls people into its orbit. Again, MySpace didn't jus "fail", it had a competitor build up its own network, which let it pull people away.

    Here's the thing though: if twitter is so important that effectively nobody can leave, what possible reason would they have for changing anything? They cannot be punished by losing users; after all, it's not like the people you're alienating can go elsewhere because network effects! They have to stay, and so does everybody else apparently. Twitter is effectively eternal now I suppose

    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Instead of doing a dumb one day boycott they should be promoting an alternative service that has policies they actually like

    Phyphor on
    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
    XaquinelectricitylikesmeMorganVMild ConfusionApothe0sis
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Because your position is privileged, as well as ignorant of how these systems work. You alone not doing business with Twitter will do nothing. And with all of the hate and bigotry on the platform, it also serves significant social needs for marginalized communities as well. Asking them to give that up is a massive ask, especially if you don't have a replacement. Not to mention all the people who use Twitter to make a living.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    shrykeJulius
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    It's just a fancy way of saying if you don't like it don't watch it in the vain hope it will die.

    shrykeKristmas Kthulhu
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    Why do you assume anyone here has an account instead of just reading the content on the platform?

    And we are looking at you like your argument is bullcrap for the reasons people keep saying. Because just because I'm not on twitter or your not on twitter or AngelHedgie's not on twitter doesn't mean twitter suddenly doesn't matter.

    Twitter is it's own weird little world but it's one where a ton of the most important organizations and people around communicate on. And ignoring twitter doesn't make them stop doing that.

    yeah, but if him, you, me, that other guy, and 48,000 other people all of a sudden don't use twitter, than it's a big deal. and the vast majority of people could stop using twitter with very little consequence.

    Except it's a collective action problem and so the actions of us individuals don't matter. Unless everyone at once decides to leave Twitter, this doesn't happen. And in this little collective, the voices of people like you or me don't even matter because as long as important people and organizations use twitter, people will keep coming back to see what they say.

    If you actually wanted to cause a mass migration off the platform to kill it, you would need to get most people to move together to do it, including the big players. And if you wanna do that, you can't do it by just ignoring twitter or refusing to use the platform. You have to talk about the issue and make the platform itself toxic and something people don't want to associate with. You or I just not going to twitter doesn't do shit.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    urahonky wrote: »
    How many tweets/comments happen in a given day?

    Over 500 million.
    Alt

    ArcTangent on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.
    Instead of doing a dumb one day boycott they should be promoting an alternative service that has policies they actually like

    First, let's refrain from calling the protests of a dispossessed group dumb.

    Second, what alternative? The only one I know of is Mastodon (and people have been pushing it), and it has not nearly the reach of Twitter. Again, network effects.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Trump using Twitter shows a flaw in the “they’re hurting their own business by allowing X”. They’re obviously not. Trump isn’t hurting Twitter. Conflict and extremism isn’t hurting Twitter. If anything, it’s helping because we’ve established people Won’t or Won’t Leave, and others are drawn to the conflict.

    It’s not a problem for Twitter, it’s a problem for people who want Twitter to change for the better. It’s just not going to happen. Why on earth would twitter ban a bunch of people using their product and drawing more users with the drama and conflict they product if no one is leaving anyways?

    It makes no sense.

    urahonkyMetal JaredelectricitylikesmeMild ConfusionGnome-Interruptus
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    How many tweets/comments happen in a given day?

    Over 500 million.
    Alt

    Wow. I guess I don't use Twitter enough.

  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    Why do you assume anyone here has an account instead of just reading the content on the platform?

    And we are looking at you like your argument is bullcrap for the reasons people keep saying. Because just because I'm not on twitter or your not on twitter or AngelHedgie's not on twitter doesn't mean twitter suddenly doesn't matter.

    Twitter is it's own weird little world but it's one where a ton of the most important organizations and people around communicate on. And ignoring twitter doesn't make them stop doing that.

    Look. Twitter continues to exist on its VC income stream, and VCs care about viewership. (And yes, they still look at non-logged-in users). This is the only language they speak.

    I think I'm being misinterpreted here. This is a collective action problem. People need to collectively leave Twitter, and resolve not to return until they fix their garbage, or Twitter won't fix anything. They have no reason to do so.

    But collective action has an individual component, otherwise it's just slacktivism. I'm saying that you, as an individual, should stop using the service and try and convince others to do likewise. Not because ignoring the problem makes it go away. (If I was ignoring this problem I wouldn't be in this thread!) Because that's what you can do to make an impact.

    I mean, what do you propose as an alternative? Should we just beg the Silicon Valley Masters Of The Universe to be good people, when they're making money off of you by being enablers?

    urahonkyTHAC0discriderJengoMild ConfusionElldrenFANTOMAS
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Because your position is privileged, as well as ignorant of how these systems work. You alone not doing business with Twitter will do nothing. And with all of the hate and bigotry on the platform, it also serves significant social needs for marginalized communities as well. Asking them to give that up is a massive ask, especially if you don't have a replacement. Not to mention all the people who use Twitter to make a living.

    There are replacements though? I suppose there is no replacement that is as popular, but twitter is basically a microblog and there are apparently a bunch of microblogs with equally silly names available (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_microblogging_services)

    If a marginalized group were, as a community, migrate to another service and maintain twitter accounts only for the purposes of funneling people that could actually be effective!

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
    Daedalus
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.

    Jesus, if this attitude prevailed during the labor movement we'd all be working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because striking is a "position of privilege".

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    Nobody worries about MySpace period because it's a practically irrelevant platform. It shouldn't be women that have to give up using a widely viewed platform over bigots.

    A platform becomes irrelevant when the audience leaves. So why aren't you giving up the platform?

    I don't use Twitter, kindly don't make unfounded assumptions. Alas, that has not changed that the vast, vast majority of people do and that Twitter should have the decency to make it a safer place for women over neo nazis.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.

    Jesus, if this attitude prevailed during the labor movement we'd all be working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because striking is a "position of privilege".

    No, it isn't, and strikers know what's at stake when they man the picket line.

    Instead of trying to claim that it's "easy" to leave, take a look at all of the social effects that make it hard to do so.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.

    Jesus, if this attitude prevailed during the labor movement we'd all be working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because striking is a "position of privilege".

    No, it isn't, and strikers know what's at stake when they man the picket line.

    Instead of trying to claim that it's "easy" to leave, take a look at all of the social effects that make it hard to do so.

    You also can't strike unilaterally. That's just quitting.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Yep. Nobody owes Nazis a soapbox.

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  • Metal JaredMetal Jared Mulligan Wizard Rhode IslandRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    As someone who has never used twitter, I don't understand why anyone gives a shit what twitter does.

    If you use it or not has no bearing on the fact the current US president uses it almost exlusively to communicate with our country. Horrible people not the president also use it as a tool of oppression and harassment. It's not about you, its about this awful platform.

    If you aren't willing to actually stop using the service in response to their fuckery, why the hell would they change anything? My entire exposure to Twitter is through this forum, and I'd avoid it here if it were possible.

    Yup. One of the line from that article is "The hashtag #WomenBoycottTwitter has been shared more than 190,000 times in a matter of hours."

    They left out the on Twitter part. Chances are there's more tweets about the boycott than missing tweets from the boycott

    And then there stuff like this:


    If it's a godforsaken website you're so relieved to get away from for a day... why not forever? A one day boycott is utterly irrelevant

    Because Twitter doesn't stop being relevant just cause you ignore it.

    But that's exactly what it does. Nobody's worried about deplorables on Myspace right now, are they? Twitter's only relevance comes from its viewership. If their users (that's you) aren't willing to leave, they have no incentive to change.

    Nobody worries about MySpace period because it's a practically irrelevant platform. It shouldn't be women that have to give up using a widely viewed platform over bigots.

    A platform becomes irrelevant when the audience leaves. So why aren't you giving up the platform?

    I don't use Twitter, kindly don't make unfounded assumptions. Alas, that has not changed that the vast, vast majority of people do and that Twitter should have the decency to make it a safer place for women over neo nazis.

    The one thing that never really made sense to me is when they don't ban people who make death/rape threats. That one seems super easy. If anyone is threatening something like that it's probably not someone you want on your platform and it would be a pretty black and white type of thing without a lot of judgment calls.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Isn't the whole problem that they don't get banned like everyone else?

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  • MrMisterMrMister A pup must first get in the water to be successful as a seal!Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Any source on the Nazi flag thing? That's the first I've heard of it, and I'd be curious if it's substantiated beyond "anonymous quote in the OP." It makes sense based on my limited understanding of how Nazi-ism is treated there, but I'm curious how true it is.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3kz57j/this-is-how-twitter-blocks-far-right-tweets-in-germany
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/10/19/163243194/twitter-blocks-offensive-accounts-in-germany-u-k-deletes-tweets-in-france

    This really doesn't sound like it was portrayed above. What it sounds like is this: foreign governments have identified a small number of specific accounts and tweets that they classify as falling afoul of their laws--e.g., the Better Hanover group or the BNP chair--and twitter has then complied in withholding tweets from those accounts in those countries jurisdictions. That's a far cry from the claim we opened with, namely that "they already know who the Nazis on their platform are" and that they could "trivially" ban the fascists by flipping a switch. They have no general Nazi-recognition algorithm that they're tagging tweets with and the only Nazis they know about are the very small number that foreign governments have specifically identified to them. It is insanely optimistic to think that Twitter extending the bans on those accounts so that they also applied outside the target countries would have any noticeable effect on Rose McGowan's feed or w/e. I'd be shocked if a couple of foreign accounts held by Nick Griffin and Better Hanover could possibly be that prolific in the American twittersphere, as opposed to our thousands of unidentified home grown analogues.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Isn't the whole problem that they don't get banned like everyone else?

    We don't know that. I haven't seen any evidence of this fact.

  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.

    Jesus, if this attitude prevailed during the labor movement we'd all be working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because striking is a "position of privilege".

    No, it isn't, and strikers know what's at stake when they man the picket line.

    Instead of trying to claim that it's "easy" to leave, take a look at all of the social effects that make it hard to do so.

    When did I say it was easy? What part of a boycott is ever easy? If it's easy it doesn't count as a boycott, it's just you making some other consumer choice.

    You know what's easy? Whining about the problem and then continuing to use their service because you don't want to be inconvenienced. To people like Jack Dorsey, that's indistinguishable from nothing.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Yep. Nobody owes Nazis a soapbox.

    Ah, okay. Well then.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Like, this reaction is completely fucking bizarre. You're saying (quite truthfully!) "this awful company's business practices are enabling racism, sexism, stalking, harassment, repression, etc etc". I say "yes, they are! I have stopped doing any business with them, and you should do the same!" And y'all are looking at me like I'm crazy!

    Hedgie, are your a content creator being forced to maintain a Twitter presence by your employer? Or are you one of the vast masses of mostly passive users whose presence create that requirement in the first place?

    Why do you assume anyone here has an account instead of just reading the content on the platform?

    And we are looking at you like your argument is bullcrap for the reasons people keep saying. Because just because I'm not on twitter or your not on twitter or AngelHedgie's not on twitter doesn't mean twitter suddenly doesn't matter.

    Twitter is it's own weird little world but it's one where a ton of the most important organizations and people around communicate on. And ignoring twitter doesn't make them stop doing that.

    Look. Twitter continues to exist on its VC income stream, and VCs care about viewership. (And yes, they still look at non-logged-in users). This is the only language they speak.

    I think I'm being misinterpreted here. This is a collective action problem. People need to collectively leave Twitter, and resolve not to return until they fix their garbage, or Twitter won't fix anything. They have no reason to do so.

    But collective action has an individual component, otherwise it's just slacktivism. I'm saying that you, as an individual, should stop using the service and try and convince others to do likewise. Not because ignoring the problem makes it go away. (If I was ignoring this problem I wouldn't be in this thread!) Because that's what you can do to make an impact.

    I mean, what do you propose as an alternative? Should we just beg the Silicon Valley Masters Of The Universe to be good people, when they're making money off of you by being enablers?

    I already mentioned the alternative above. Because just leaving doesn't do shit because even if I was on twitter, I don't matter. It is a collective action problem and the whole point of those is that individual actions don't matter. That the problem does not resolve itself because one person decides to do something and that in fact the situation is such that the best interest of any individual does not solve the issue. That what you or I do doesn't mean shit. It only matters if people act as a group. And that in this case, in that group, some people matter a hell a lot more then you or I. So what you actually need to do is what people are doing like those mentioned in the OP: raise a stink about the issue. Make it big, make it visible and make the brand itself toxic to force it to change or die.

    Cause me and my non-existent twitter account leaving along with the non-existent accounts of my friends and family aren't gonna do shit. Not when people like the President are still there.

  • Metal JaredMetal Jared Mulligan Wizard Rhode IslandRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Yep. Nobody owes Nazis a soapbox.

    Ah, okay. Well then.

    Yup they'll just end up on the dark web and we'll have no idea what they're up to. I'm sure that won't end badly

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Isn't the whole problem that they don't get banned like everyone else?

    We don't know that. I haven't seen any evidence of this fact.

    The OP has evidence of imbalanced punishments for doxxing.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Phyphor wrote: »
    I ignore twitter pretty well. Literally the only place I see tweets is here and even then I tend to just skim past them

    Again, this is a position of privilege. Just because you can ignore Twitter doesn't mean others have the option.

    Jesus, if this attitude prevailed during the labor movement we'd all be working 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because striking is a "position of privilege".

    No, it isn't, and strikers know what's at stake when they man the picket line.

    Instead of trying to claim that it's "easy" to leave, take a look at all of the social effects that make it hard to do so.

    The comparison to strikes is actually pretty funny because, of course, the whole point of strikes is that just one person showing up to work doesn't matter. The point of a strike is that everyone has to do it and then you've got to make sure nobody breaks the line either.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    So what's the solution here? If a post gets reported enough it gets auto-blocked and then a mod looks over it to verify that it is indeed against their TOS and then the accounts gets 1 strike and/or a ban (depending on severity)? I assume that is the system in place right now. How many tweets/comments happen in a given day? Several million (I'm guessing)? So we want Twitter to police all of those posts using what?

    For one, using the system that flags accounts to be suppressed in France/Germany instead to ban accounts.

    For what? Having an incredibly shitty opinion/political belief? I assume that if they gets hostile and verbally abusive then they get banned just like everyone else.

    Yep. Nobody owes Nazis a soapbox.

    Ah, okay. Well then.

    A private service opting to ban people like nazis or white supremacists isn't some new or terrifying thing.

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