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Donald Trump Attacks [The US Military]... Again

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    Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    The situation in this case is that the father's ex-wife was listed as the sole beneficiary
    In his call with Trump, Baldridge, a construction worker, expressed frustration with the military's survivor benefits program. Because his ex-wife was listed as their son's beneficiary, she was expected to receive the Pentagon's $100,000 death gratuity — even though "I can barely rub two nickels together," he told Trump.
    "He said, 'I'm going to write you a check out of my personal account for $25,000,' and I was just floored," Baldridge said. "I could not believe he was saying that, and I wish I had it recorded because the man did say this. He said, 'No other president has ever done something like this,' but he said, 'I'm going to do it.' "

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-offered-a-grieving-military-father-25000-in-a-call-but-didnt-follow-through/2017/10/18/8d4cbc8c-b43a-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html

    That’s up to the Soldier who gets the benefits. There is typically family drama when money is involved and this happens more often than you’d think. The form (DD 93) is updated yearly and also before deployments. That form also cannot normally be contested in court, superseding even wills and family wishes.

    I have an anecdote from years ago of a Soldier that deployed, divorced his wife mid-deployment, but didn’t update his forms before he was killed.

    His ex got all the money and the rest of the family got nothing. It sucks but that’s why we constantly update them.

    Anyhow, I don’t want this thread to be about the inner details of the casualty process, so I’ll leave it at that.

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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    If trump did write he check 100% guarantee it came from his foundation and not him

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    TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    If trump did write he check 100% guarantee it came from his foundation and not him

    If it didn't come from the inauguration fund.

    Trump mistake #1 was offering the money in the first place. It's generous, but a dangerous precedent. Mistake #2 was not sending it.

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Well yeah now where is the money for all the other widows and family members? Oh right slashing benefits in general working on private charity to make up for it.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Says a lot about Trump that when confronted by an angry, grieving relative, he goes straight to "offer money" because that's presumably the thing that usually gets people to go away and stop bothering him.

    He's really emotionally unsuited to the job of consoling grieving families, being as empathetic as a 9 iron. If he were a different person, I'd say a little coaching on how to handle the grieving would help, but he's not the sort to learn stuff. Failing that, maybe Pence could do it?

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Not just offer money, but falsely offer money. Like he didn't even give the guy the money, just the hope he fucking would.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Not just offer money, but falsely offer money. Like he didn't even give the guy the money, just the hope he fucking would.

    Probably instantly forgot. Doesn't he have *people* for that sort of thing?

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Not just offer money, but falsely offer money. Like he didn't even give the guy the money, just the hope he fucking would.

    Probably instantly forgot. Doesn't he have *people* for that sort of thing?

    Not if it involves his own banking. There is a wall between State and Personal that most civil servants take seriously.

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    Waffles or whateverWaffles or whatever Previously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen" Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Edit: Nothing really came out of it/non-importance. They criticized the Congresswoman for releasing the statement, lots of patriotic stuff for Gold Star Families, thank you for your service, and that the incident is under investigation. (Though that's protocol for anything that occurs with lives being lost. 15-6s occur almost hourly in the Military) There was murmurs at the end that Trump authorized the mission, but I couldn't tell if John Kelly said "Yes" it or if a Reporter said it.

    Waffles or whatever on
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    CogCog What'd you expect? Registered User regular
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Is it going to make me feel sick? It's going to make me feel sick, isn't it.

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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Is it going to make me feel sick? It's going to make me feel sick, isn't it.

    AP reporter Josh Lederman sums it up the best:
    Kelly, defending Trump from White House podium, laments that sanctity of Gold Star families was lost over summer at convention

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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Too bad he cares more about defending Trump than the sanctity of Gold Star families.

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    Emissary42Emissary42 Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Edit: Nothing really came out of it/non-importance. They criticized the Congresswoman for releasing the statement, lots of patriotic stuff for Gold Star Families, thank you for your service, and that the incident is under investigation. (Though that's protocol for anything that occurs with lives being lost. 15-6s occur almost hourly in the Military) There was murmurs at the end that Trump authorized the mission, but I couldn't tell if John Kelly said "Yes" it or if a Reporter said it.

    I saw it as well. Kelly noted Trump's wording was based on what Kelly was told to him by his casualty officer (Trump asked him personally for advice on what to say). Kelly's obviously not thrilled about the initial source of the spat (Trump criticizing Obama for not calling soldiers' families), but he's beyond furious with the Congresswoman for prying into an extremely private matter for political points. Especially the Congresswoman's attempts to shift what was said into a different light because it was based on what Kelly himself was told when his own son died.

    Emissary42 on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Emissary42 wrote: »
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Edit: Nothing really came out of it/non-importance. They criticized the Congresswoman for releasing the statement, lots of patriotic stuff for Gold Star Families, thank you for your service, and that the incident is under investigation. (Though that's protocol for anything that occurs with lives being lost. 15-6s occur almost hourly in the Military) There was murmurs at the end that Trump authorized the mission, but I couldn't tell if John Kelly said "Yes" it or if a Reporter said it.

    I saw it as well. Kelly noted Trump's wording was based on what Kelly conveyed was told to him by his casualty officer (Trump asked him personally for advice on what to say). Kelly's obviously not thrilled about the initial source of the spat (Trump criticizing Obama for not calling soldiers' families), but he's beyond furious with the Congresswoman for prying into an extremely private matter for political points. Especially the Congresswoman's attempts to shift what was said into a different light because it was based on what Kelly himself was told when his own son died.

    So more dignity wraiths for the pile then.

    Not that Kelly had much dignity to begin with.

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I'm sorry that doesn't make a lick of sense. How can you defend trump while mentioning he himself was the reason that sanctity was fucking lost?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    ErlkönigErlkönig Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Edit: Nothing really came out of it/non-importance. They criticized the Congresswoman for releasing the statement, lots of patriotic stuff for Gold Star Families, thank you for your service, and that the incident is under investigation. (Though that's protocol for anything that occurs with lives being lost. 15-6s occur almost hourly in the Military) There was murmurs at the end that Trump authorized the mission, but I couldn't tell if John Kelly said "Yes" it or if a Reporter said it.

    He also reaffirmed that he definitely didn't get a call from Obama (from what the BBC is reporting).

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Emissary42 wrote: »
    Waffen wrote: »
    John Kelly is doing a press release right now about the whole Trump/Gold Star Family story. I'll post a review when it's over.

    Edit: Nothing really came out of it/non-importance. They criticized the Congresswoman for releasing the statement, lots of patriotic stuff for Gold Star Families, thank you for your service, and that the incident is under investigation. (Though that's protocol for anything that occurs with lives being lost. 15-6s occur almost hourly in the Military) There was murmurs at the end that Trump authorized the mission, but I couldn't tell if John Kelly said "Yes" it or if a Reporter said it.

    I saw it as well. Kelly noted Trump's wording was based on what Kelly was told to him by his casualty officer (Trump asked him personally for advice on what to say). Kelly's obviously not thrilled about the initial source of the spat (Trump criticizing Obama for not calling soldiers' families), but he's beyond furious with the Congresswoman for prying into an extremely private matter for political points. Especially the Congresswoman's attempts to shift what was said into a different light because it was based on what Kelly himself was told when his own son died.

    What fucking different light? Clearly the congresswoman and the family he told it too had the same reaction, so what different light made what he say better?

    Ignoring of course Trump's contempt for the khans and attacks on them.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    I'm sorry that doesn't make a lick of sense. How can you defend trump while mentioning he himself was the reason that sanctity was fucking lost?

    Because his argument is than what ruined the "sanctity" (and I really hate that argument) of Gold Star families was not Trump attacking one, but the Khans using their "position" as such to attack Trump.

    It is the argument that these families should only be honored if they just play the part of the good little prop, and it's revolting.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    But should he have? I was under the impression that such an honour generally went to the soldier's spouse? I am open to being corrected if that is untrue.

    Also the repeated notes that apparently he attended a gathering (dinner?) for Gold Star Family members, and sat beside Michelle Obama at the time? If this is about recognition of families who have lost a member in the line of duty, 'oh, I didn't get a call, but maybe the widow did, and there were all these other times and ways that a measure of respect and empathy were shown' is disingenuous as fuck.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    What fucking sanctity is there in having your family member killed? There's nothing holy or spiritual about it. It's awful, and if you feel like that person got killed needlessly, or that the Command staff didn't respect their sacrifice or wouldn't respect future sacrifices, you aren't violating shit by speaking out about it to hopefully prevent it happening to others.

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    I'm sorry that doesn't make a lick of sense. How can you defend trump while mentioning he himself was the reason that sanctity was fucking lost?

    Because his argument is than what ruined the "sanctity" (and I really hate that argument) of Gold Star families was not Trump attacking one, but the Khans using their "position" as such to attack Trump.

    It is the argument that these families should only be honored if they just play the part of the good little prop, and it's revolting.

    I figured, but that's complete horseshit. And creepy dictator stuff. Which is par for the course for this group.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    Emissary42 wrote: »
    Kelly noted Trump's wording was based on what Kelly was told to him by his casualty officer (Trump asked him personally for advice on what to say).

    The thing is, when it was Kelly, it was a Marine telling it to a Marine about a Marine. Kelly did know what his son had signed up for. And even then, he said no matter how prepared he was for it, he wasn't prepared.

    http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2011/03/lt_general_john_kelly_copes_wi.html
    "I guess over time I had convinced myself that I could imagine what it would be like to lose a son or daughter," he said in an interview. "You try to imagine it so that you can write the right kind of letters or form the right words to try to comfort. But you can't even come close. It is unimaginable."

    In Trump's case, it was a President telling it to a grieving widow and now single mother about her husband. If they were Trump's words, he's an idiot. If they were Kelly's words, he's an even bigger idiot.

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    I'd slam the phone down on that monster if he ever had to speak to me. Dunno how that poor family resisted the urge to do so.

    If I knew I was going to be talking to him, I'd record the call.

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    TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    I'd slam the phone down on that monster if he ever had to speak to me. Dunno how that poor family resisted the urge to do so.

    If I knew I was going to be talking to him, I'd record the call.

    It's the only way you will see a check if he offers money.

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    ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor changed Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Are the calls scheduled beforehand?

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    GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    TNTrooper wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    I'd slam the phone down on that monster if he ever had to speak to me. Dunno how that poor family resisted the urge to do so.

    If I knew I was going to be talking to him, I'd record the call.

    It's the only way you will see a check if he offers money.

    Just please be mindful of your state's wiretapping laws.

    Black lives matter.
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    JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Yeah, Kelly made little sense to me. Didn't members of the family already agree that they were offended. And the family should be allowed to invite anyone they want to listen to the call.

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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Are the calls scheduled beforehand?
    I'd figure they'd have to be, at least a couple minutes in advance. The President is (normally, at least historically) a very busy person, and having him call and get a busy signal/answering service, or call when there's a time factor on the other end (boarding a plane, picking up children from school, etc). Making sure that the family member is able to process, would be a factor. Because with a normal president, you would expect it to be emotionally overwhelming.

    But as Gong said, be wary of wiretapping laws in your area.

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    Emissary42Emissary42 Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Are the calls scheduled beforehand?
    I'd figure they'd have to be, at least a couple minutes in advance. The President is (normally, at least historically) a very busy person, and having him call and get a busy signal/answering service, or call when there's a time factor on the other end (boarding a plane, picking up children from school, etc). Making sure that the family member is able to process, would be a factor. Because with a normal president, you would expect it to be emotionally overwhelming.

    But as Gong said, be wary of wiretapping laws in your area.

    Kelly noted that there is always a pre-call call, to see if the family member would or would not like to accept a call from the President or another member of the government aside from the usual casualty officer. The answer is almost always yes, but the pre-call is not instantaneously before the call from the President.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    The BBC write-up
    On Thursday, Gen Kelly said he was so "stunned" by Ms Wilson's attack that he spent more than an hour walking among soldiers' graves at Arlington National Cemetery, just outside Washington.
    Hearing someone defend the widow of a soldier was so stunning he just had to walk among graves while sad but patriotic music played in the background.
    The chief of staff said he had advised the president not to call the loved ones of the four American servicemen killed in Niger, telling him: "There's nothing you can do to lighten the burden on these families."
    Translation: Oh God please don't talk to them, they're already suffering and the last thing they or we need is for you to open your mouth and regurgitate your stream of consciousness over them.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    Emissary42Emissary42 Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Kelly also noted an instance where he was present at the dedication of a new South Florida FBI field office, named for two FBI agents killed in a 1986 shootout. Most of the speakers spoke of the two agents either from first-hand interactions or by their records; the Congresswoman didn't focus on that at all, and patted herself on the back for getting the money. Those in attendance remarked that her behavior was stunningly appalling considering the tone of the dedication ceremony as a whole, and that definitely colors his impression of her statements around this incident.

    Emissary42 on
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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    The BBC write-up
    On Thursday, Gen Kelly said he was so "stunned" by Ms Wilson's attack that he spent more than an hour walking among soldiers' graves at Arlington National Cemetery, just outside Washington.
    Hearing someone defend the widow of a soldier was so stunning he just had to walk among graves while sad but patriotic music played in the background.
    The chief of staff said he had advised the president not to call the loved ones of the four American servicemen killed in Niger, telling him: "There's nothing you can do to lighten the burden on these families."
    Translation: Oh God please don't talk to them, they're already suffering and the last thing they or we need is for you to open your mouth and regurgitate your stream of consciousness over them.

    Maybe Kelly should call them, sounds like he'd do a much better job, particularly considering his sad personal experience.

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    FuzzytadpoleFuzzytadpole Registered User regular
    Ah, I was wondering what the spin on this would be.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Emissary42 wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Kelly also noted an instance where he was present at the dedication of a new South Florida FBI field office, named for two FBI agents killed in a 1986 shootout. Most of the speakers spoke of the two agents either from first-hand interactions or by their records; the Congresswoman didn't focus on that at all, and patted herself on the back for getting the money. Those in attendance remarked that her behavior was stunningly appalling considering the tone of the dedication ceremony as a whole, and that definitely colors his impression of her statements around this incident.

    I haven't watched Kelly's statement, but a cursory bit of Google'ing isn't showing this outrage at the time.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-miramar-fbi-hq-dedication-20150410-story.html

    "Rep. Wilson truly did the impossible, and we are eternally grateful," FBI Director James Comey said.

    Which isn't to say that it didn't happen, but with the fast and loose manner in which the Trump administration plays with facts, I'd love to see something to corroborate this assessment other than 'some people said it'. Who? Does anyone have video of this speech? It was only made 2.5 years ago.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    Emissary42Emissary42 Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    Forar wrote: »
    Emissary42 wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Kelly being angry that a congresswoman was with the family is a load of bullhockey. Kelly has no reason that I know of to believe that she wasn't invited by the family.

    Kelly also noted an instance where he was present at the dedication of a new South Florida FBI field office, named for two FBI agents killed in a 1986 shootout. Most of the speakers spoke of the two agents either from first-hand interactions or by their records; the Congresswoman didn't focus on that at all, and patted herself on the back for getting the money. Those in attendance remarked that her behavior was stunningly appalling considering the tone of the dedication ceremony as a whole, and that definitely colors his impression of her statements around this incident.

    I haven't watched Kelly's statement, but a cursory bit of Google'ing isn't showing this outrage at the time.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-miramar-fbi-hq-dedication-20150410-story.html

    "Rep. Wilson truly did the impossible, and we are eternally grateful," FBI Director James Comey said.

    Which isn't to say that it didn't happen, but with the fast and loose manner in which the Trump administration plays with facts, I'd love to see something to corroborate this assessment other than 'some people said it'. Who? Does anyone have video of this speech? It was only made 2.5 years ago.

    The outrage was noted as privately held. Based on how he described it, it was the one poor spot of the event overall.

    I'm having difficulty finding video as well, but I would think the text/transcripts of the event may be easier to find.

    edit: my sense of how Kelly views the Congresswoman is basically your stereotypical self-centered politician (one who will glom onto anything they think will promote their career a bit too obviously).

    Emissary42 on
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    ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited October 2017
    the thing is no matter how stereotypical a politician she is, if he genuinely has any issue with that kind of behavior how has he not managed to explode working for trump? hes the most self-congratulatory, self-serving and self-obsessed nincompoop that I can imagine

    Like the general approach the right seems to be taking is that this congresswoman is trying to score political points and thats bad. Which is insane having just gone through the last month of Trump and Puerto Rico

    Its like, christ, at least she seems to be "scoring" points, Trump seems to turn up to the game and just dump Gatorade on himself then jump out a window

    Prohass on
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    Emissary42Emissary42 Registered User regular
    In this case, I think he feels like she crossed a personal line both with him and with the calls themselves. On the latter point, I've heard now that the circumstances of the call is that the congresswoman was in the limo with the family at some point during the funeral procession, and the phone was on speaker when the call from the White House came in. The content of these calls is intended to be private, between the President and the Family. She overheard the call, and based on all evidence decided to use it for political points without the family's input. If it was the family coming forward with the Congresswoman, that's one thing; the Congresswoman just leaping out on her own and waving it around is the issue.

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    SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    https://www.vox.com/2017/10/19/16504980/john-kelly-press-briefing-dead-troops-soldiers-family
    In his way [Trump] tried to express that opinion that he's a brave man, a fallen hero, he knew what he was getting himself into because he enlisted, there's no reason to enlist, he enlisted and was where he wanted to be, exactly where he wanted to be with exactly the people he wanted to be with when his life was taken. That was the message.
    It's only his first day, after all.
    You know, when I was a kid growing up a lot of things were sacred in our country. Women were sacred. Looked upon with great honor. That's obviously not the case anymore, as we've seen from recent cases. Life was sacred. That's gone. Religion. That seems to be gone as well. Gold Star families, I think that left in the convention over the summer. I just thought the selfless devotion that brings a man or woman to die in the battlefield, I thought that might be sacred.
    I vaguely remember hearing that maybe Kelly would be a moderating influence but hoo boy does this ever succinctly demonstrate how wrong that was.

    Very professional handling of the situation, tho, quite surgically covers all the bases and should keep that approval rating among Rs hovering at 80% instead of dipping down further.

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