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How Societal Gender Norms Harm Dating Expectations
archivistkitsune
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I checked with the mods before making this. Not surprisingly we had a tangent pop up in the Sexual Misconduct and Power thread about how societal gender norms have caused issues when it comes to dating expectations. I suspect most, if not everyone has had to deal with the all the crap that these horrid views have brought to dating.
Rape culture has fostered this idea that guys must be the assertive ones in initiating a relationship. The guy is expected to ask the girl out, but there seems to be no expectation on the guy to consider what a women wants. Then there is just the shear amount of crap that is tossed on women. They can't be the one's that ask a guy out, society will judge them as easy. Society also creates this bullshit concept that there are no, "NOs" saying no is just some sort of game.
As a timid guy that is just trying to get into dating, I found this whole dynamic incredibly off putting and that's on top of trying to deal with the anxiety of having to put myself out there and deal with possible rejection. I can only imagine how much worse this is for women who are also dealing with that anxiety, but also having to deal with creeps who think they have a right to harm them. Likely also frustrating for women that don't want to follow the whole "I'll wait to get asked out by the guy or I like or use this really convoluted setup to get my friends to relay the message that I'm interested."
So let us discuss how these shitty norms have made dating more complicated, dramatic and traumatic than it needs to be and what we can do to change things. The discussion is worth having, just not in the Sexual Misconduct and Power thread.
(PS I'm open to updating the OP and title if people have suggestions).
Rape culture has fostered this idea that guys must be the assertive ones in initiating a relationship. The guy is expected to ask the girl out, but there seems to be no expectation on the guy to consider what a women wants. Then there is just the shear amount of crap that is tossed on women. They can't be the one's that ask a guy out, society will judge them as easy. Society also creates this bullshit concept that there are no, "NOs" saying no is just some sort of game.
As a timid guy that is just trying to get into dating, I found this whole dynamic incredibly off putting and that's on top of trying to deal with the anxiety of having to put myself out there and deal with possible rejection. I can only imagine how much worse this is for women who are also dealing with that anxiety, but also having to deal with creeps who think they have a right to harm them. Likely also frustrating for women that don't want to follow the whole "I'll wait to get asked out by the guy or I like or use this really convoluted setup to get my friends to relay the message that I'm interested."
So let us discuss how these shitty norms have made dating more complicated, dramatic and traumatic than it needs to be and what we can do to change things. The discussion is worth having, just not in the Sexual Misconduct and Power thread.
(PS I'm open to updating the OP and title if people have suggestions).
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Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
What makes you think that's the way such algorithms will be used, as opposed to exploiting individuals and making things worse? There are lots of explicitly shady "dating" websites out there, never mind the shady stuff that happens on the legit ones.
Problems become really apparent under load, see twitter. The fact that there are a lot of competing websites helps.
The fact that women are the key demographic in all non shady dating websites helps too.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
People desperately need to learn that their choices change who they encounter and what they experience. Life isn't just this static pool of people like a tiny town anymore unless you are actually in a tiny town - and people can leave those too.
Some women approach some men all the damned time.
Personally, if I didn't seek out dates (respectfully, politely, but actively), I'd be single for years at a time.
As a single heterosexual male, I get that most women (single and otherwise) get a lot of unnecessary shit thrown their way, but you can only send out so many hundreds and thousands of messages with maybe a 1% response rate before feeling like the whole system is just a meat grinder for the soul.
Taking rejection isn't all that difficult when you respect that everyone has a right to say no.
That doesn't make it hurt a whole lot less when it feels like literally everyone is saying no.
I have female friends on Bumble and Tinder who will get match after match, I can swipe for hours without so much as a match, let alone a conversation, let alone a date.
Nobody owes me shit.
That doesn't make me any less lonely.
Let me fix that statement from "Women approach men all the damned time" to "Attractive people are approached all the time."
If you are average or unattractive, or fall outside the societal definitions of beauty (beautyoverweight, odd features, etc), you are unlikely to be approached, or, at least, not all the damned time.
"Some" is true if it's 99% of the population going after 99% of the population. Not every single human being is going to end up in a Disney happy ending, no, and some people have an easier time than others, but that doesn't change that women as a whole ask men as a whole out on a regular basis, and at no point does that makes pushing against consent any less horrible.
It's true that some people also don't have as many options, whether it's because of social norms or because of some characteristic they were born or raised with, but these still have no relation to the importance of respecting consent.
I mean I get how it feels to be lonely - I have *run out* of people on OkCupid and Tinder in Seattle on multiple occasions. Turns out, sticking to those is a bad choice for me - if I make a different choice, like going out to clubs, or just letting women look for me instead of trying to customize a lover with menu sliders, I end up getting approached.
I have never successfully asked anyone out on a first date, myself, other than when it was a cute thing to say 'cause we were already well past that.
But honestly, none of that matters. If pushing against consent was literally the ONLY way to ever get a relationship it would still not be okay.
Dude, I have bigger boobs than some of the women I've been approached by. I mean yes, when I was thinner I was approached a bit more (also because I left the house more), but hell I started off with a mullet and a black leather trench coat. Men are just not judged nearly as harshly for their appearance by women, on average. It's not a zero factor, but it's not a dead stop either.
Your dating experiences are contrary to what I experience and have experienced in the past. Attractiveness plays a huge part in it. Gender roles are stupidly entrenched in dating. OKC has a few articles on just how this impacts online dating alone.
What do you mean by pushing past consent?
One of my favorite things to do back when was just be like "cool" when i get a no and just talk about something else. Establish a rapport. Go from there and see what happens. In the beginning I was shocked at how often "I have a thing" or "I have friends waiting" were quietly dropped and never brought up again--often because they werent actually things to begin with, they were just easy deflections. Does this fit your definition of pushing past consent? If so, why? If not, why not?
That's not to say I've never been approached by women. It's definitely happened (and I'm dating one of them right now!) but comparing experiences with other people in my peer group - clearly a scientific sample :P - the amount of initiating attention men get from women isn't even in the same order of magnitude as the other way around.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I know you're speaking generally, but I was speaking specifically. And kindly note that I explicitly said that my ventures were done respectfully and politely.
You keep reiterating this, but I never said a thing about not respecting consent in potential partners, so it's kind of feeling like you're reading rapey undertones into a comment I made with specific care to indicate I do no such thing.
I think it also helps to view this from the overall picture. Just like being considered attractive can result in running into more of the exceptions. Certain scenarios can also make it more likely to run into those exceptions. I also feel like this is making excuses for a dynamic that isn't healthy. A women should feel secure asking a guy out without having to qualify it with "because he is super attractive" or "well this is something you can do at a club.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And.... I think that's kind of awful. I'm past that point in my life, long ago, but still it seems like a terrible system. It absolutely encourages bad behavior and it encourages the things women hate: that is, men aggressively hitting on them. Not to excuse bad behavior, but I also think you're almost guaranteed to get that kind of behavior in the system we have now.
It's within the other's margin of error IME.
This obviously doesn't mean that men should be putting women into uncomfortable situations like asking them on a date in an elevator or what all that is. I probably wouldn't ask someone out that's a captive audience in any regard (your waiter, etc) but I don't think a cashier or someone you're only talking to for 25 seconds is necessarily off limits. I've heard people say "don't bother women in bars and clubs because they're there having a good time" and I dunno, so how do you ask someone out then? Find their email from a friend and fire one off?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Here's some fun reads too:
https://theblog.okcupid.com/a-womans-advantage-82d5074dde2d
https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-mathematics-of-beauty-51bd25ae9a75
https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-looks-and-your-inbox-8715c0f1561e
https://theblog.okcupid.com/dont-be-ugly-by-accident-b378f261dea4
OKCupid has a lot of blog posts that are interesting from the whole mathematics part of dating. Like seriously they help because there's some inherent way we all perceive beauty as a whole. Which is weird! Even someone who is unattractive can be made to appear attractive just as simple as changing how they take a picture. As much as I bemoan OKCupid's selection in my area, it's really great that they're doing this stuff.
My okcupid profile was actually a thesis similar to that first article: if you don't hustle, you get scraps. And online is a good place to put yourself out there without the danger of statistically running into deathproof guy.
I think one of the reasons men get a better deal out of relationships is that on average they're more proactive. That rewards you no matter what you're trying to accomplish.
Of course then you get into the whole salesmanship part of effective propositioning and the whole thing goes south
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It is, ultimately, a numbers game. If you like that, that's great, a lot of us are put off by propositioning others constantly because of the ache of loneliness. It's exhausting and sometimes you've just got to be comfortable with yourself because no matter what you do sometimes you lose the game. I'm sure, in my case, it'll work out for me, but at this point I'm just done with the whole dating thing and sort of taking a passive approach. Leave my profile up and if I get interest (rare to begin with), then I act. I mean I had people liking my profile on OKCupid but as soon as I message them they just disappear so who knows sometimes!
How much of that is a culturally-enforced feedback loop though? You know, blah blah men dominant, women submissive, so men have to ask women out, so blah blah men dominant, women submissive.
I mean, I think the inverse of this phenomenon is instructive: men who are turned off/repulsed by women who are confident, in not just the romantic sphere but also others. Confidence being positive or negative is itself gendered.
It doesn't have to be framed as dominance versus submissiveness. Asking out a woman shows confidence, which isn't the same as dominance. And if she's been giving you social signals that she wants you to do so, then you've also demonstrated social awareness and empathy.
I edited my post, but confidence is gendered. Or, one might ask, why do women believe confidence to be an attractive attribute in men? If we simply subscribe to that fact without questioning its origins, we might be playing into a societal gender norm that harms dating expectations.
Yeah but (this is starting to sound like a general dating thread) the same skills that get you that job or that sale generate problems here.
Watching Nightcrawler, I'm entranced by what an unbelievably confident salesman he is. You know it is sending up tons of warning signs but that is how we're taught to sell ourselves.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think there's a distinction to be made between confidence and assertiveness. Everyone likes confidence. Assertiveness is trickier. Ignoring gender for a moment, I think people who are passive have good reason to like people who are assertive. It helps to push past barriers. On the other hand, two very assertive personalities can clash with each other. It just happens that men feel more pressure to be assertive and women feel more pressure to be passive, so they're more likely to internalize that until it becomes true.
The above statements may not be super true today in first world countries, but they were true everywhere for millions of years and remain true in a handful of places on Earth. This means biology is involved, and despite how much one may wish to have 100% equality in who approaches whom, what role does confidence, beauty, health, and wealth play, why do the libido curves look different for men and women at different ages, etc... at some point biology enters the picture.
Regarding pursuit, men who do not initiate are (generally) in one of two categories:
- have a large obvious advantage over the general male population (most clearly, visible beauty or visible wealth)
- lonely
I knew my now wife for years before we started dating, and she had had a secret crush on me the bulk of the time, but she never would have said or done anything had i not initiated things along a different axis one day (romantic as opposed to platonic).
And before that, there were multiple chances since puberty with girls and then women where i had missed a vague "signal" that she was into me and do things remained platonic because i was too non-confident/polite (in my mind) to initiate. Then years later either self realization through introspection or the person in question tells me she had been into me back then and wondered why i had done nothing.
Which is not to say that some women might not like assertiveness, or that playing hard to get is not a thing, just pointing out that the whole dynamic is fucked up and leads to horrible outcomes.
Was that so bad? Would it be so bad? I had a pretty full and satisfying life before I had an intimate relationship and before I had sex. I had friends, I had access to nearly limitless entertainment, I had obligations to meet. I just wasn't touching boobs or using my dick on another person. Don't get me wrong, sex is fun and I'm sure if I had less I'd miss it, especially now that I know what it's about. But I have other interests. I like doing other things. I'd find ways to fill the time.
Is sex and are intimate relationships so important that they warrant this desperate stop-at-nothing pursuit by anyone? Jesus, it just sounds exhausting.
Yes.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
It's seriously fucked up how different you're judged for your appearance depending on gender. Like you said, it's not a zero factor, but even in my own personal experience it's crazy how much slides because I'm a guy. I look like shit, I've long since accepted that, but I havent gotten nearly as much crap for it as a woman would have. I mean, you see it just by observing everyday life, men who look average or outright ugly will usually get casual politeness in daily interaction, but women are lucky if people literally dont just knock them aside.
Not being able to fulfill your sexual desires fucking sucks and willful severe deprivation should be reserved for desires that are seriously harmful (eg, pedophilia and rape).
As long as we don't violate consent or outright harm people, then yes it is a better world when people can get laid on occasion.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Wow! Okay.
How would you compare the feeling to, say, hunger? I've heard about a trans man who said that when she went on testosterone as part of her transition, her desire for sex changed and it started to feel more like hunger. But I've been hungry, and horny, and lonely, and only one of those has ever made me feel truly desperate.
(h/t to Feral)
It was so bad. It would be so bad. Yes it is that important.
I don’t want to like.... wax poetical here. But essentially, yes. I’d go so far as to say that it’s a fundamental human need.
There's a difference between someone being forced to repress their sexual desires because of social repression and just plain not being able to attract anyone without acting like an agressive creep and playing a numbers game. I dont want to sound mean spirited here, but if you cant attract someone under your own friggin power, them too fucking bad. You're not guaranteed sexual release.