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Sexist blind spot?
nowwhat
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I may get a bit wordy here for what's essentially a pretty simple question...I'm not asking for relationship advice, a larger discussion on sexism, or ammunition to re-litigate a fight against my wife - just curious if I completely missed the sexist subtext of what I thought was a common phrase.
For background, my wife has been under an immense amount of stress the past year or two, working for a boss and with many people she hates. She spent the past six months trying to get a new job - just barely falling short each time. Yesterday she finally got a formal offer on a true dream job (people, pay, responsibilities, etc). This whole time she's expressed that I've been hugely supportive of her.
When we were getting ready for bed last night, I gave her a hug and told her that I was immensely proud of how hard she "fought, clawed, and worked" to get this job.
She was immediately and deeply offended I used the term 'clawed', and felt it was incredibly sexist and implied she was a nasty woman who only got this job by screwing people over. I made the mistake of immediately trying to explain that I was using the term in the sense of perseverance - clawing your way to the top or across the finish line rather than apologizing. She said he never heard the term used that way and the damage was done before I realized I should just take the hit and apologize profusely - the day ended with her telling me I completely ruined her day.
Now, I recognize that sexism is in how something is said or received, not necessarily the words used. I also realize there are contexts where the term clawed / claws is very sexist (e.g. she got her claws in him). And yes, I really wish I could go back and use a different term.
But, the question I have is are people generally familiar with the term clawing - in the context I used it - as being a gender-less synonym for refusing to quit? I.e. 'clawing their way to the top' or 'clawing their way across the finish line'?
For background, my wife has been under an immense amount of stress the past year or two, working for a boss and with many people she hates. She spent the past six months trying to get a new job - just barely falling short each time. Yesterday she finally got a formal offer on a true dream job (people, pay, responsibilities, etc). This whole time she's expressed that I've been hugely supportive of her.
When we were getting ready for bed last night, I gave her a hug and told her that I was immensely proud of how hard she "fought, clawed, and worked" to get this job.
She was immediately and deeply offended I used the term 'clawed', and felt it was incredibly sexist and implied she was a nasty woman who only got this job by screwing people over. I made the mistake of immediately trying to explain that I was using the term in the sense of perseverance - clawing your way to the top or across the finish line rather than apologizing. She said he never heard the term used that way and the damage was done before I realized I should just take the hit and apologize profusely - the day ended with her telling me I completely ruined her day.
Now, I recognize that sexism is in how something is said or received, not necessarily the words used. I also realize there are contexts where the term clawed / claws is very sexist (e.g. she got her claws in him). And yes, I really wish I could go back and use a different term.
But, the question I have is are people generally familiar with the term clawing - in the context I used it - as being a gender-less synonym for refusing to quit? I.e. 'clawing their way to the top' or 'clawing their way across the finish line'?
nowwhat on
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that said, I'd take the hit and not rehash the argument
Apologize that you didn't mean that and this is what you really meant, and reiterate that you will keep that in mind going forward that she thinks clawing is a different thing. No reason to make this a bigger deal, she thinks one thing, you think another.
The 'a bunch of people on the internet agreed with me' argument definitely wouldn't help anyway.
Anyway, we're on the 'you messed up my big day' phase of the fight where the optimal outcome is eating shit until she's ready to move on. I think I've got this - hopefully things don't get to the point where I'm asking for advice on that.
>.>
Does she, by any chance, hate her soon-to-be-former coworkers because she thinks they're insulting her with their language choices?
No, I'm pretty sure they aren't any particular factor.
Sexism in the workplace - especially around career advancement - is a very sore spot for her, but it would never have occurred to me that in the context I used it that word choice would be taken as sexist, much less someone wouldn't be familiar with a genderless context at all.
That, and that she would be so uncharitable she would immediately go to me being sexist rather than giving me a 'WTF, do you realize what you said'. As if I knew what I was saying was sexist and - out of all the support and encouragement I've given - decided I wanted to slip ONE insult in there. But that's getting a bit further into the particular fight / our relationship than I really wanted.
The fight was definitely a surreal 'what, are you serious? are we really doing this?' experience for me.
"I didn't mean to use a phrase that was sexist, that wasn't my intent and I apologize. I'll avoid using that word in the future." or something along those lines.
Chiefly, why does she think you would be sexist rather than give you the benefit of the doubt?
Where is the well of understanding that normally would prevent someone from jumping straight to "deeply offended" with their spouse?
Why do you feel like the best course of action would have been profuse apology rather than normal apology and an expectation of mutual respect?
While you're right not to bother ironing this out, one or both of you have some underlying shit you need to work out with yourselves and each other. Asking why this went down the way it did rather than some better, less confrontational and emotionally fraught way, is likely going to be important to the long term health of your marriage.
You might not have meant it as such, but odds are that their experience is different, and supercedes yours when it comes to general sexism towards women.
That said, apologize, explain you did not mean anything sexist by it, move on and avoid the saying in the future.
edit-
That said
clawed -> catty -> unpleasant woman
I can see a logical path there, even if i can't remember it having been used in a sexist way.
But it is also possible that i have, but simply have not recogniced it due to being a man.
I dunno, it was out of character for her and I don't know why she would jump straight to deeply offended and angry. That's what put me back initially, because she does normally give me the benefit of the doubt if I say something dumb.
She said she never heard the phrase used in a positive or non-sexist way before, which I never would have expected but don't doubt. If I'd known that right off the bat, a profuse apology - not just a normal apology - would be forthcoming because even if it was a misunderstanding, it clearly was unexpected for her and badly hurt her feelings. A normal apology isn't always adequate even for an honest mistake and on top of that I missed the magnitude of the initial hurt and started with explaining, not apologizing.
The whole situation was very confusing. I kind of wish I'd come in here and a half dozen people had responded 'no, dude, no - you might as well have accused her of sleeping her way to the top'. At least her reaction would make complete sense, and that I earned the right to be a complete jackass. Even though it doesn't change our situation, finding out that pretty much everyone at least partially understands the term / phrase as I intended it makes me feel like I'm a bit less crazy.
But yeah, with that in mind there's clearly a lot of stuff going on - both the obvious stressors of a new job and some less obvious things. Once things finish cooling down we'll sit down and talk it through.
And - I do recognize that regardless of right / wrong / usage of the term, if someone perceives something as sexist / racist / homophobic / etc their feeling or perception is all that matters. Never doubted that. This thread wasn't to give me ammunition or feel right about it, it was more as a sanity check for me.
Yeah, I recognize her reaction as something I've also done in previous relationships during stressful times. You (choose to) interpret something in the worst possible light and lash out as if you were actively looking to start a fight. It's a subconscious thing, but I've found it easy to recognize later when looking back at my own behavior. I'm no expert but I imagine this is a pretty normal thing that people sometimes do. I wouldn't worry about it too much, just focus on mending fences and supporting her as she starts her new job.
It could also be a triggering word for her. There are words (that aren't swear words or ones that I think are particular sexist or oppressive) that I simply don't use when talking to my wife. I've tried to dissect why some words or my usage is offensive and that's just been a whole lot of effort and time thrown down a hole and we both end up frustrated in the end.
*Clawing has always been a reference to clawing at the dirt... As in using every available tool and when you have nothing left, dig with your hands because you refuse to quit.
I've never heard it used as a sexist term unless someone was really looking for a reason to be offended. I think you're right in letting it go, but maybe talking about why she acted so out of character when she's in the mood to talk some.
Edit: * when I've ever used or heard it used.
Well, I've heard things like "kitten's got claws", and "cat fight" being said when two women are fighting, and somebody going "reooow!" and making a claw-swiping gesture at a woman when they think she's angry.
"Clawing" as a term, to me, can mean desperately/ruthlessly aiming for something(not necessarily in the kindest light), but especially when used to refer to a woman could have some negative connotations.
While I agree that other things might be going on, and that this term may not immediately seem sexist to most, it can sometimes feel a little demeaning when directed at a woman, just based on how it's sometimes used. I don't think you meant it in this way, @nowwhat , but it might help to explain your wife's reaction a bit.
This phrase needs to die in a fire.
That's fine, I guess. It's a thing though for people to direct anger at a safe target without reasonable cause. There's not really a nice way to describe the behavior.
I don't see any reason to explode at the OP over his use of phrase obviously meant as a compliment unless he was the safe target. It deserves a discussion, though not necessarily a rehash of the specific argument.
Women are often described in terms likening them to cats (ever heard a co-worker described as 'catty?'), especially in a work context. This can be demeaning. I think this may have been what was picked up on as being sexist-- 'clawing' in relation to the 'women as cats' metaphors that get bandied about.
Basically you probably meant it in the neutral way, but there is another less neutral reading of that which I think is equally valid.
*Women-only meaning the kinds of work criticisms that generally only women get. This story got popular recently about how a man and woman swapped their email sign-offs for a week and how the man had the worst week of his working career. It's a helpful read if you wondered why a woman might react negatively to something you thought was innocuous.
Does it have some sort of slam-dunk, "the way you said it means this exact thing" kind of use attached to it? No. But at this point a woman who has worked really hard and finally got the job she's wanted isn't going to want to hear it. It can also feed into impostor syndrome which, after a day of feeling great about one's accomplishments, won't be welcome.
I have definitely heard the cat related / scratch related terms used negatively towards women, and in hindsight I should have connected them. Can't change it, but definitely will avoid using the term in the future.
We had a lot of stuff said in the fight and it wasn't really on the forefront of my mind when I made the thread, but one of the things my wife said is that I'm very aware of my word choice. The implication is she felt like me saying that had to either be intentional, or at least hurtfully inconsiderate by not putting thought into my choice of words.
We frequently have conversations about the choice of words we use around / for our daughter, e.g. I've really discouraged the use of 'bossy'. Even when we're talking about her friends where that would be an accurate descriptor, I don't like it because it's so frequently used as a pejorative for girls (where a boy would be 'assertive' or 'showing leadership'). As well as the more obvious ones like 'shrill' or 'hysterical'. Not to get too political, but this topic comes up a lot when we talk about the double standards for powerful women (esp. Hillary).
Relationship-wise we seem to be back in a pretty good place. Sadly, I'm sure something will spur a discussion on sexism soon enough. My wife and I will do a postmortem on this particular issue then.
Eh this comment isn't helpful or necessary
From the OP's posts it does sound like relationship/marriage interaction advice is what is warranted, but it's been specifically excluded.
So then it becomes a question of are certain words sexist, and under what contexts might they be sexist or not.
Much thanks to everyone and I think the thread can be closed.