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[Overwatch] #12: OWL Stage 3 Returns, Retribution Soon

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    GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    They explicitly state that off-meta picks are not ban-worthy, in the reporting window.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...heard a player got banned for one-tricking.

    While I don't much care for folks who do that can't say I agree with that course of action.

    Reddit's having its own little internal shitfit over it. One of the people posting "PROOF THAT I WAS BANNED FOR ONE TRICKING TORB" ended up having a history of trolling, including being caught recorded intentionally refusing to pick anybody and throwing because someone else picked Torb before him. So less one tricking, and more a history of being a constant asshole with that just being one part of it.

    I can't say that I disagree with it though. In quick play, it'd be stupid. But in competitive? It's a team game and "Poor teamwork" is right there in the list of reportable offenses. Forcing the rest of the team to play around you being a selfish shitbag is definitely poor teamwork. One person occasionally doing it is tolerable, but if you let that be the norm, then it only takes 2-3 people like that on a team to completely ruin the match and match quality for the other 9-10 people.

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    jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Garthor wrote: »
    They explicitly state that off-meta picks are not ban-worthy, in the reporting window.

    That is how it should be, but here's an official post from community manager from official forums:
    Josh Engen wrote:
    I just wanted to chime in and make sure that everyone knows that we’re currently digging into the reports, investigating this ban, and thinking about how this type of situation affects specialized players and their teammates.

    We take both sides of the issue very seriously. We believe that players should be able to choose their favorite heroes, but playing as a team (which includes building an effective team composition) is a core part of the Overwatch experience. It’s a delicate balance, and we’re still working on getting it right (and probably always will be).

    If you’ve been playing Blizzard games for a while, you’ve probably heard us use the phrase “Play nice; play fair.” It’s like a mantra around the Blizzard campus, and it’s a big part of the way that we approach situations like this. People tend to focus on the “playing fair” part, but they forget about “playing nice.” Sometimes that means switching off at your teammates' request, and sometimes that means working around your teammate’s specialization.

    Either way, Overwatch is more fun when everyone is playing nice.

    Thank you for your patience as we investigate this situation, and thank you for your passion/enthusiasm about Overwatch.

    Troubling parts:
    1. You have to obey your team-mates when they demand that you repick or make picks that general OW-society deems to be off Meta.
    2. You have to participate in communications with team-mates.
    - As a non-native English-speaker, that sounds really Anglo-centric. English is my third language and I regularly play on EU-servers. Every night I play with people that do not communicate in English or at all. Game even has option to disable the chat window and disable voice chat.

    jammu on
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    OrphaneOrphane rivers of red that run to seaRegistered User regular
    I don't think that someone who only ever picks one hero should have their performance (whether good or bad) factor in to whether or not they get punished for such behavior

    People can be playing, participating, playing to win and yet still be doing it in a shitty way that upsets their teammates and contributes to toxicity

    I don't know enough about this particular case to say one way or another but i can certainly see ways in which a one-trick could be detrimental to the morale of a team even if picking unsuitable heroes for a game mode is not explicitly against the rules

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    jammu wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    They explicitly state that off-meta picks are not ban-worthy, in the reporting window.

    That is how it should be, but here's an official post from community manager from official forums:
    Josh Engen wrote:
    I just wanted to chime in and make sure that everyone knows that we’re currently digging into the reports, investigating this ban, and thinking about how this type of situation affects specialized players and their teammates.

    We take both sides of the issue very seriously. We believe that players should be able to choose their favorite heroes, but playing as a team (which includes building an effective team composition) is a core part of the Overwatch experience. It’s a delicate balance, and we’re still working on getting it right (and probably always will be).

    If you’ve been playing Blizzard games for a while, you’ve probably heard us use the phrase “Play nice; play fair.” It’s like a mantra around the Blizzard campus, and it’s a big part of the way that we approach situations like this. People tend to focus on the “playing fair” part, but they forget about “playing nice.” Sometimes that means switching off at your teammates' request, and sometimes that means working around your teammate’s specialization.

    Either way, Overwatch is more fun when everyone is playing nice.

    Thank you for your patience as we investigate this situation, and thank you for your passion/enthusiasm about Overwatch.

    Troubling parts:
    1. You have to obey your team-mates when they demand that you repick or make picks that general OW-society deems to be off Meta.
    2. You have to participate in communications with team-mates.
    - As a non-native English-speaker, that sounds really Anglo-centric. English is my third language and I regularly play on EU-servers. Every night I play with people that do not communicate in English or at all. Game even has option to disable the chat window and disable voice chat.

    Neither of those are true, and both of those assume that you're being constantly spuriously reported by the rest of your team for such.

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    jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    jammu wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    They explicitly state that off-meta picks are not ban-worthy, in the reporting window.

    That is how it should be, but here's an official post from community manager from official forums:
    Josh Engen wrote:
    I just wanted to chime in and make sure that everyone knows that we’re currently digging into the reports, investigating this ban, and thinking about how this type of situation affects specialized players and their teammates.

    We take both sides of the issue very seriously. We believe that players should be able to choose their favorite heroes, but playing as a team (which includes building an effective team composition) is a core part of the Overwatch experience. It’s a delicate balance, and we’re still working on getting it right (and probably always will be).

    If you’ve been playing Blizzard games for a while, you’ve probably heard us use the phrase “Play nice; play fair.” It’s like a mantra around the Blizzard campus, and it’s a big part of the way that we approach situations like this. People tend to focus on the “playing fair” part, but they forget about “playing nice.” Sometimes that means switching off at your teammates' request, and sometimes that means working around your teammate’s specialization.

    Either way, Overwatch is more fun when everyone is playing nice.

    Thank you for your patience as we investigate this situation, and thank you for your passion/enthusiasm about Overwatch.

    Troubling parts:
    1. You have to obey your team-mates when they demand that you repick or make picks that general OW-society deems to be off Meta.
    2. You have to participate in communications with team-mates.
    - As a non-native English-speaker, that sounds really Anglo-centric. English is my third language and I regularly play on EU-servers. Every night I play with people that do not communicate in English or at all. Game even has option to disable the chat window and disable voice chat.

    Neither of those are true, and both of those assume that you're being constantly spuriously reported by the rest of your team for such.

    Problem is that people are spuriously reporting them. Whether it is with malice, or because they feel that they are entitled that you pick a healer.
    I constantly see people target Off-meta DPS people and demand that they pick Mercy. Or whatever they think that team needs.

    Sometimes they demand that, I as a tank-main play specific tank. (usually Rein) They can get really pissy when I refuse.

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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...heard a player got banned for one-tricking.

    While I don't much care for folks who do that can't say I agree with that course of action.

    Reddit's having its own little internal shitfit over it. One of the people posting "PROOF THAT I WAS BANNED FOR ONE TRICKING TORB" ended up having a history of trolling, including being caught recorded intentionally refusing to pick anybody and throwing because someone else picked Torb before him. So less one tricking, and more a history of being a constant asshole with that just being one part of it.

    ...And that's why I wrote that little "if true" caveat at the end of my post. I half-expected there was more to the story. Still, it's a bit of a tightrope they're walking on this one.

    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
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    jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...heard a player got banned for one-tricking.

    While I don't much care for folks who do that can't say I agree with that course of action.

    Reddit's having its own little internal shitfit over it. One of the people posting "PROOF THAT I WAS BANNED FOR ONE TRICKING TORB" ended up having a history of trolling, including being caught recorded intentionally refusing to pick anybody and throwing because someone else picked Torb before him. So less one tricking, and more a history of being a constant asshole with that just being one part of it.

    ...And that's why I wrote that little "if true" caveat at the end of my post. I half-expected there was more to the story. Still, it's a bit of a tightrope they're walking on this one.

    That's a different guy. There has been multiple bannings over one-tricking and that particular guy was a total goose.

    Ww8FAMg.jpg
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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    jammu wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    jammu wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    They explicitly state that off-meta picks are not ban-worthy, in the reporting window.

    That is how it should be, but here's an official post from community manager from official forums:
    Josh Engen wrote:
    I just wanted to chime in and make sure that everyone knows that we’re currently digging into the reports, investigating this ban, and thinking about how this type of situation affects specialized players and their teammates.

    We take both sides of the issue very seriously. We believe that players should be able to choose their favorite heroes, but playing as a team (which includes building an effective team composition) is a core part of the Overwatch experience. It’s a delicate balance, and we’re still working on getting it right (and probably always will be).

    If you’ve been playing Blizzard games for a while, you’ve probably heard us use the phrase “Play nice; play fair.” It’s like a mantra around the Blizzard campus, and it’s a big part of the way that we approach situations like this. People tend to focus on the “playing fair” part, but they forget about “playing nice.” Sometimes that means switching off at your teammates' request, and sometimes that means working around your teammate’s specialization.

    Either way, Overwatch is more fun when everyone is playing nice.

    Thank you for your patience as we investigate this situation, and thank you for your passion/enthusiasm about Overwatch.

    Troubling parts:
    1. You have to obey your team-mates when they demand that you repick or make picks that general OW-society deems to be off Meta.
    2. You have to participate in communications with team-mates.
    - As a non-native English-speaker, that sounds really Anglo-centric. English is my third language and I regularly play on EU-servers. Every night I play with people that do not communicate in English or at all. Game even has option to disable the chat window and disable voice chat.

    Neither of those are true, and both of those assume that you're being constantly spuriously reported by the rest of your team for such.

    Problem is that people are spuriously reporting them. Whether it is with malice, or because they feel that they are entitled that you pick a healer.
    I constantly see people target Off-meta DPS people and demand that they pick Mercy. Or whatever they think that team needs.

    Sometimes they demand that, I as a tank-main play specific tank. (usually Rein) They can get really pissy when I refuse.

    The "problem" here assumes that everybody but one person is a bad actor, and they've all spontaneously decided to focus their ire on that one person for no real reason.

    I feel pretty confident in saying that the number of false positives generated by that kind of situation happening over and over and over is microcosmic.

    ArcTangent on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    They would never do this (and don't) for people who play 76 or Mercy only, that's the glaring problem with this ban.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    They would never do this (and don't) for people who play 76 or Mercy only, that's the glaring problem with this ban.

    Or any tank, or any healer.

    But that's also because those are generally useful instead of situational, don't require the rest of your team to play around you, there isn't as severe countering cycle for tanks/healers (or 76), and the population of those players is way the fuck smaller than the DPS population. Yes, even with how prolific Mercy is.

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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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    KanaKana Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    There's been a lot of noise with this whole thing and not a ton of signal. We really don't know the details, and this thread enjoys its hyperbole.

    If Blizz was banning people for being one tricks there'd be way more than one dude banned in top 500.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    It isn't just "this thread" pretty much the whole community has been talking about it.

    Dragkonias on
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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    I realize that this is only more scuttlebutt, but one theory I saw floated is that Blizzard responded to the community's complaints about how someone could get several thousand reports without action from Blizzard by tuning the automated response threshold to be more sensitive, with the result that "how dare you pick you pick Torb" fell under the threshold. However, since we only have a few confirmed instances of Torbjorn players actually getting bans, I'm much more confident that there was actually something more to the story than we're being told.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

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    BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    And what happens when someone else beats them to their main and doesn't want to switch? This person is now likely to be playing at a much lower level of play than the rest of their team.

    A suggestion I saw elsewhere was to require X hours played on multiple heroes before you can play ranked (say, 4 hours each on any three heroes). I don't think that's asking a lot and it would at least ensure people know how to play more than one character.

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    BeezelBeezel There was no agreement little morsel..Registered User regular
    didn't that GM accidentally reveal how their reporting process works and that it partially relies on some kind of automated process based on how many reports are generated against you? I may be thinking about something different but I could swear it was related to a one trick getting banned.

    PSN: Waybackkidd
    "...only mights and maybes."
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    I strongly disagree. There's nothing stopping anyone from playing more than one character but the unwillingness to do so. No rights are being alienated when you "have" go play an other character.

    The game has different maps and game types specifically so some characters are more viable on them, so the game doesn't get stale.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Beezel wrote: »
    didn't that GM accidentally reveal how their reporting process works and that it partially relies on some kind of automated process based on how many reports are generated against you? I may be thinking about something different but I could swear it was related to a one trick getting banned.

    No, I think that was just some idea by people. But really, there is going to be some automated component, because why not? Something will probably be up if someone had 100 reports

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    That is not happening. Nobody is going to report you if you're being effective playing a character. Or if they do, then they're assholes who are generating countless spurious reports anyway. This is an assumption made in bad faith; that the one making the bad pick is contributing effectively and meaningfully, but the rest of the team are assholes and reporting them anyway, over and over again, game after game. If we're at the point where that's true, and 5/6 of the player base are trolls, there are far bigger problems.

    And again, I completely disagree with this part:
    "If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop."

    It is a team game. In competitive, you are double extra playing as part of a team. If you are not contributing to the team, or are plainly dragging the team down, and doing so in a way that is clearly visible to the rest of them, then you are being an asshole. "I'm playing the game how -I- want to play it," is not an excuse. This goes for any behavior. Someone's feelings don't enter it. I don't care if in their heart of hearts, they believe that they're the greatest flanking Reinhardt, battle Mercy, or DPS Ana. Hell, they could be the greatest Pharah in the world, and if they're being taken out by a Widow/76 the moment they show their face every time, it behooves them to switch, no matter how hard they feel like they're trying. Making the declaration "I'm special, and everyone else has to play according to my rules," is being a selfish jackass.

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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    *instalock Hanzo*

    *game uninstalls itself*

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    CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    That is not happening. Nobody is going to report you if you're being effective playing a character. Or if they do, then they're assholes who are generating countless spurious reports anyway. This is an assumption made in bad faith; that the one making the bad pick is contributing effectively and meaningfully, but the rest of the team are assholes and reporting them anyway, over and over again, game after game. If we're at the point where that's true, and 5/6 of the player base are trolls, there are far bigger problems.

    And again, I completely disagree with this part:
    "If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop."

    It is a team game. In competitive, you are double extra playing as part of a team. If you are not contributing to the team, or are plainly dragging the team down, and doing so in a way that is clearly visible to the rest of them, then you are being an asshole. "I'm playing the game how -I- want to play it," is not an excuse. This goes for any behavior. Someone's feelings don't enter it. I don't care if in their heart of hearts, they believe that they're the greatest flanking Reinhardt, battle Mercy, or DPS Ana. Hell, they could be the greatest Pharah in the world, and if they're being taken out by a Widow/76 the moment they show their face every time, it behooves them to switch, no matter how hard they feel like they're trying. Making the declaration "I'm special, and everyone else has to play according to my rules," is being a selfish jackass.
    Do you have any idea what kind of door you're opening when you make "not playing well enough" a bannable offense?

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    That is not happening. Nobody is going to report you if you're being effective playing a character. Or if they do, then they're assholes who are generating countless spurious reports anyway. This is an assumption made in bad faith; that the one making the bad pick is contributing effectively and meaningfully, but the rest of the team are assholes and reporting them anyway, over and over again, game after game. If we're at the point where that's true, and 5/6 of the player base are trolls, there are far bigger problems.

    And again, I completely disagree with this part:
    "If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop."

    It is a team game. In competitive, you are double extra playing as part of a team. If you are not contributing to the team, or are plainly dragging the team down, and doing so in a way that is clearly visible to the rest of them, then you are being an asshole. "I'm playing the game how -I- want to play it," is not an excuse. This goes for any behavior. Someone's feelings don't enter it. I don't care if in their heart of hearts, they believe that they're the greatest flanking Reinhardt, battle Mercy, or DPS Ana. Hell, they could be the greatest Pharah in the world, and if they're being taken out by a Widow/76 the moment they show their face every time, it behooves them to switch, no matter how hard they feel like they're trying. Making the declaration "I'm special, and everyone else has to play according to my rules," is being a selfish jackass.
    Do you have any idea what kind of door you're opening when you make "not playing well enough" a bannable offense?

    A microcosmic one. If it's consistent, then they're at the wrong rank and it's self-corrrecting. Or they're throwing. If it's not consistent, then it won't be obvious to their teammates and won't be reported en masse for it.

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    RoyallyFlushedRoyallyFlushed Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    That is not happening. Nobody is going to report you if you're being effective playing a character. Or if they do, then they're assholes who are generating countless spurious reports anyway. This is an assumption made in bad faith; that the one making the bad pick is contributing effectively and meaningfully, but the rest of the team are assholes and reporting them anyway, over and over again, game after game. If we're at the point where that's true, and 5/6 of the player base are trolls, there are far bigger problems.

    And again, I completely disagree with this part:
    "If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop."

    It is a team game. In competitive, you are double extra playing as part of a team. If you are not contributing to the team, or are plainly dragging the team down, and doing so in a way that is clearly visible to the rest of them, then you are being an asshole. "I'm playing the game how -I- want to play it," is not an excuse. This goes for any behavior. Someone's feelings don't enter it. I don't care if in their heart of hearts, they believe that they're the greatest flanking Reinhardt, battle Mercy, or DPS Ana. Hell, they could be the greatest Pharah in the world, and if they're being taken out by a Widow/76 the moment they show their face every time, it behooves them to switch, no matter how hard they feel like they're trying. Making the declaration "I'm special, and everyone else has to play according to my rules," is being a selfish jackass.

    If the greatest Pharah in the world is being countered by an enemy Widow, clearly his or her teammates weren't playing well enough and/or didn't switch to counter the Widow so the Pharah should report them for it!

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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Just as someone who doesn't play this game very often, this whole thing is super surreal to me. Blizzard is banning people for playing the game legitimately? Like, what? I would think if they didn't want people to stick to one character, they would just design it in such a way that you couldn't do that.

    Playing the game legitimately means playing as a team. Especially in competitive, where all of this is always happening. Whether it's "fuck my team, I'm here to screw around, emote, and goof off" or "fuck my team, I'm not going to work with them, I'm going to force them to play around whatever gimmicky strat I feel like, and I'm going to just feed if I'm hard countered," it's being an asshole either way. And again, it's the kind of thing that's borderline 'okay' if just one person on a team does it, but any more than that, and it ruins the match for both teams.

    If someone has a character they legit feel they are the best with, and they do their best to win the match with that character, they should not be punished full-stop. If that character isn't a great pick for the map, that's on Blizzard. Either the character needs to be tuned or they need to accept that they're okay with it and not punish the player for playing the game as designed. Yeah, if they're throwing or causing problems then by all means punish them for that - but not for playing their preferred character to the best of their ability. That is a Bad System.

    I strongly disagree. There's nothing stopping anyone from playing more than one character but the unwillingness to do so. No rights are being alienated when you "have" go play an other character.

    The game has different maps and game types specifically so some characters are more viable on them, so the game doesn't get stale.

    Yeah, but this is only an issue because the game doesn't structure itself in a way to head off people from taking one-tricking to a disruptive level, and the main reason we see that behavior is that it seems to work for climbing ranks because of how the competitive system works. If Blizzard wants to stop this, they need to look at how they can change things from behind the scenes to address the issue (such as changing how rank is determined so people learn organically not to do it, or impose a prerequisite system like the idea @BionicPenguin related above). Maybe they need to put in something that locks a given player out of a character for the remainder of the round if they get killed a certain number of times (and maybe they can unlock the character again if it goes into overtime, or they get on the point/payload while the team makes a certain amount of progress, etc). At the very least, there should have been a clear announcement that they were going to make this a bannable offense in competitive and given people a modest grace period for word to get around before handing out punishments.

    H3Knuckles on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    If the game really emphasized different character combinations depending on the map or mode the World Cup wouldn’t have been Mercy, Tracer and 76 all the time.

    This is what Blizzard has created and pushed forward, they don’t get to play dumb or act tough when someone does the same thing only in a non pre approved fashion. That the guy has a 58% winrate shows he’s not a detriment to the team and was effective, either by being a good Torb or so incensing his team they achieved anime power up and won despite the guy.

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    BeezelBeezel There was no agreement little morsel..Registered User regular
    I just feel that legit banning a dude because he didn't play what everyone else wanted him to kinda opens that door where Blizzard is going to have to come out and say whether or not their game is casual or competitive. It can be both but not when you're operating like that.

    PSN: Waybackkidd
    "...only mights and maybes."
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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    I think it's an ok rule for competitive, but that they should've made a clear official statement ahead of time that starting with season (#?) it would be considered a bannable behavior and they would be taking reports seriously.

    QP should allow it because the mode's intended for casual play, imho.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
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    MrVyngaardMrVyngaard Live From New Etoile Straight Outta SosariaRegistered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Those are my favorites - when you form a rivalry with an enemy.

    I always do this whenever I see another Pharah while as playing as her in my airspace.

    The skybox is MINE, get the hell out you goddamn parakeet. This is where eagles dare.

    "now I've got this mental image of caucuses as cafeteria tables in prison, and new congressmen having to beat someone up on inauguration day." - Raiden333
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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    .
    Beezel wrote: »
    I just feel that legit banning a dude because he didn't play what everyone else wanted him to kinda opens that door where Blizzard is going to have to come out and say whether or not their game is casual or competitive. It can be both but not when you're operating like that.

    I think you're focusing too much on the specific of what he did, and not the pattern of behavior it characterizes. If the rest of your team has identified someone as causing a problem, and their reaction is "Fuck you. I do what I want," instead of "Okay, what can I do to fix it," then I'd absolutely say they're justified in reporting him. And as far as I'm aware, this is strictly a Competitive thing. I don't think anybody at this point expects QP or Arcade to be anything but a hellscape of Genji + Hanzo + 2 DPS + 1 Tank/Healer the overwhelming majority of the time.

    As an aside, I would be 150% on board with competitive having a mandatory playtime rule. eg Maintain at least 10% playtime as a healer, 10% as a tank, 10% as Assault/Defense, or suffer SR/Exp/comp points gain/loss penalties.

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    KanaKana Registered User regular
    Blizz has said specifically that none of the folks recently banned were banned just for picking a character.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    It's easy for me to imagine that a Torb main in comp would get a lot of shit and sometimes fight back, and in so doing engage in other rule-breaking behavior as a result.

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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Is there a group of y'all that play on PC on the regular with like a discord server or somesuch? I am so sick of randos.

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    davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Is there a group of y'all that play on PC on the regular with like a discord server or somesuch? I am so sick of randos.

    There's a link to the list in the OP. Most nights can usually get a full group going. Range of level and abilities so we mostly just play Quick Play together.

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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Is there a group of y'all that play on PC on the regular with like a discord server or somesuch? I am so sick of randos.

    There's a link to the list in the OP. Most nights can usually get a full group going. Range of level and abilities so we mostly just play Quick Play together.

    Any discord or something? I always feel weird randomly trying to friend people off of spreadsheets.

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    davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Is there a group of y'all that play on PC on the regular with like a discord server or somesuch? I am so sick of randos.

    There's a link to the list in the OP. Most nights can usually get a full group going. Range of level and abilities so we mostly just play Quick Play together.

    Any discord or something? I always feel weird randomly trying to friend people off of spreadsheets.

    I have three PA forums related Discords that have Overwatch channels that no one uses. There's the Social channel in Battle.net but no one uses that either. We just invite each other in-game when we log in and go from there.

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    DarkMechaDarkMecha The Outer SpaceRegistered User regular
    MrVyngaard wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Those are my favorites - when you form a rivalry with an enemy.

    I always do this whenever I see another Pharah while as playing as her in my airspace.

    The skybox is MINE, get the hell out you goddamn parakeet. This is where eagles dare.

    I like air dueling other Pharahs because I'm a Tribes nut. :D

    Steam Profile | My Art | NID: DarkMecha (SW-4787-9571-8977) | PSN: DarkMecha
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    If the game really emphasized different character combinations depending on the map or mode the World Cup wouldn’t have been Mercy, Tracer and 76 all the time.

    This is what Blizzard has created and pushed forward, they don’t get to play dumb or act tough when someone does the same thing only in a non pre approved fashion. That the guy has a 58% winrate shows he’s not a detriment to the team and was effective, either by being a good Torb or so incensing his team they achieved anime power up and won despite the guy.

    All it shows is that he lost the game for his team only 42% of the time. If he plays 100 games that's 220 reports. Not even factoring in to what extent he forced the entire team to play around him even in the games he won or to what extent he got carried in those games.

    People bring up Soldier but the fact is that Soldier is versatile. He can work in death balls, he can work in dive comp, he works on all the maps, and he doesn't have any hard counters. He is almost always a decent pick and I think Soldier players who flip out when someone else picks Soldier first are rarer.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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