Now, you would think the race where the opponent is a pedophile would be a slam dunk, but we in the Democratic party pride ourselves on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Why the bitter self-hatred? This election is not taking place in somewhere like New Jersey where victory is possible (if tricky.) This is Alabama, where Satan-R vs Jesus-D would be a Republican victory. Their problems go back to segregation days, and while the Democrats were to blame for that, the party moved on generations ago.
I am seeing people, especially those in Alabama, saying that this will make a huge difference. Moore was massively unpopular already, and everything he's won recently has ben by the thinnest of margins. Plus, Republicans in government in Alabama are double double SUPER DOUBLE unpopular due to a shitload of scandals from top to bottom. All the people they're talking to that support him are the far right craze-balls already crawled up his ass to begin with. This is going to drive already depressed turnout in a depressed election at a bad time even further down, and drive Democratic turnout up. I personally highly doubt it's enough to win it, but some reporters, this guy in particular (Esquire) from Alabama who's covered Moore in the past says that Moore's solidly screwed by this.
The national GOP has said that if this story is proven he should remove himself from the race. That includes Mitch McConnell emerging from his shell to say that. McCain, to his credit, didn't include the caveat. The Alabama GOP though, hooooo boy. This quote from the state Auditor is typical, though the most extreme one I have seen:
"Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”
You would think this would kill his candidacy, but a year ago we saw something similar so who the fuck knows.
...that is not how Christmas works.
One of the major plot points of the Bible is that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary.
The probability that someone knows what's in the gospels (much less the rest of the bible) is inversely proportionate to how publicly they profess their zeal. I've yet to come across a politician justifying things from faith that isn't advocating things that aren't very Christian.
Coincidentally, publicly saying "look at me and my zeal" is something Jesus says not to do.
Saying "it's okay in the Bible" isn't much of an argument because there's a ton of stuff in the Bible that is considered (or at least, one is supposed to consider) horrible and not at all something a modern, civilized society is supposed to condone.
Saying "it's okay in the Bible" isn't much of an argument because there's a ton of stuff in the Bible that is considered (or at least, one is supposed to consider) horrible and not at all something a modern, civilized society is supposed to condone.
Saying "it's okay in the Bible" isn't much of an argument because there's a ton of stuff in the Bible that is considered (or at least, one is supposed to consider) horrible and not at all something a modern, civilized society is supposed to condone.
The dodgy stuff is not really in the Gospels.
Neither is all the stuff people cite when trying to criminalize homosexuality or abortion.
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Jones is already running quite close for deep red Alabama. I don’t think a victory here is out of the realm of possibility at all. Plus shrinking the GOP margin to 2 would be a huge blow to their legislative agenda given their growing handful of disobedient Senators like McCain, Corker, Collins, Murkoswki, and Paul. Democrats should put a full effort into the race and hammer Moore on this bullshit (as well as all his other bullshit).
Apparently, Daniel Dale, Toronto Star political reporter and closet masochist, is calling every Alabama GOP county chair for responses. This is exactly as horrible as it sounds:
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I’m sure many of them would not be ok with it if it were their daughters. But since it’s someone else’s kids they don’t make the connection.
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I’m sure many of them would not be ok with it if it were their daughters. But since it’s someone else’s kids they don’t make the connection.
That seems the appropriate follow-up question.
"Would you be okay with a 32 year old male kissing your 14 year old daughter?"
Now, you would think the race where the opponent is a pedophile would be a slam dunk, but we in the Democratic party pride ourselves on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Why the bitter self-hatred? This election is not taking place in somewhere like New Jersey where victory is possible (if tricky.) This is Alabama, where Satan-R vs Jesus-D would be a Republican victory. Their problems go back to segregation days, and while the Democrats were to blame for that, the party moved on generations ago.
It's a coping mechanism that has been well honed over the last several years.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
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minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I’m sure many of them would not be ok with it if it were their daughters. But since it’s someone else’s kids they don’t make the connection.
I hate that argument because it hints towards men seeing their daughters as property, but man, it's like the only thing to point out the absurdity of this argument to some people.
minor incident on
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
To sue for defamation, he's got the burden to prove that the claims are false, no?
Public official. He's got to prove they are false and were printed with either actual malice (I.e. Knowledge of falsity) or "reckless disregard for the truth."
To sue for defamation, he's got the burden to prove that the claims are false, no?
The standards for threatening to sue for libel are far lower than the standards for actually suing for libel.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
There's a NYTimes piece here leading with McConnell's reaction to Moore as well as background on the current revelations today. This isn't the important bit. The important bit is way, way down at the bottom of the article:
Even before the allegations about his personal conduct came to light, Mr. Moore’s judicial record on matters of sexual abuse was a point of contention in the race. During the Republican Senate primary, Mr. Strange ran television commercials attacking Mr. Moore for his vote in a case involving the sexual assault of a child.
Democrats alleged a deeper pattern of leniency in Mr. Moore’s judicial decisions involving sexual predation, pointing to several cases in which the former judge expressed skepticism of young women making allegations of sexual abuse.
In a 2015 case involving a man, David Pittman, who pleaded guilty to raping an underage girl, Mr. Moore wrote in a dissenting opinion that Mr. Pittman should have been allowed to introduce evidence showing his alleged victim’s parents “suspected her of sexual activity,” because it could be relevant to discerning her “alleged motive” in claiming she had been assaulted.
And in a 2014 case, involving a man convicted of abusing two underage girls, Mr. Moore wrote in a dissenting opinion that the man, Sherman Tate, should have had the chance in court to demonstrate that his accusers were romantically involved with each other. Mr. Moore wrote that connection “could be relevant to the victims’ alleged bias against Tate.”
“In cases of sexual misconduct, even against minors, Roy Moore blames the victims and sides with the attackers,” said Chris Hayden, a spokesman for Senate Majority PAC, the Democratic group that highlighted the cases. “Knowing that Roy Moore himself is an attacker it has never been clearer that he is not fit to serve in the U.S. Senate.”
These links absolutely need to be connected together, because this is pattern of behaviour surrounding minors and Moore.
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I doubt the parents thought a 32 year old District Attorney was taking their kid on a date.
They probably, naively, assumed it was tutoring or civics engagement because he saw something special in their child that didn't involve her barely pubescent figure.
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I doubt the parents thought a 32 year old District Attorney was taking their kid on a date.
They probably, naively, assumed it was tutoring or civics engagement because he saw something special in their child that didn't involve her barely pubescent figure.
Read the article. Moore was a hometown hero and legend. They talked to one woman who said her mother was thrilled by it (when she was 17 and he was 34).
It's definitely... interesting that he's not saying much of anything about the accusations themselves but is just how-dare-you-ing a paper he condemns reflexively all the time anyway because Obama or something. (That fundraising email attributes the article to the "Obama-Clinton Machine.")
Gotta love puffed-up outrage as a default response to claims when you could always at least, y'know, pretend to deny them.
(It's also interesting that he's going after the well-to-do organization the right hates while not saying a word about the accusers, who would have been the ones doing any actual defamation if there was defamation to be had..)
He doesn't deny it because he doesn't think he did anything wrong. The "terrible things," from his viewpoint, is how the liberal media is trying to demonize him for not doing anything wrong.
Thinking about it, and particularly how Republican opposition research seems to never turn any of this shit up, I actually wonder if they have. I mean, the usual Republican response would be FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS DENY DENY DENY SMEAR JOB FAKE NEWS. Except that's not what happened. It instantly went to the "So what?" defense. I can kind of get that from the Alabama mini-politicians who probably all but knew about it for years, but all the DC ones? Are they just taking their cues from the Alabama doofuses? Or did they already know about it and were ready for it to come out and know claiming it was false would blow up in their faces?
The national politicians are using the "if it's proven to be true" dodge to make it sound like they give a shit. Which is why they are national politicians and not podunk party county chairs.
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
Hello Alabama here
Just to let you know
Ziegler the guy who said that one quote (the state auditor) also spoke at League of the South meeting
He is pretty shit
Thinking about it, and particularly how Republican opposition research seems to never turn any of this shit up, I actually wonder if they have. I mean, the usual Republican response would be FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS DENY DENY DENY SMEAR JOB FAKE NEWS. Except that's not what happened. It instantly went to the "So what?" defense. I can kind of get that from the Alabama mini-politicians who probably all but knew about it for years, but all the DC ones? Are they just taking their cues from the Alabama doofuses? Or did they already know about it and were ready for it to come out and know claiming it was false would blow up in their faces?
Look at Donald Trump and the Republican establishment's reactions to everything that's wrong with him. They're more interested in covering up scandals than they are in preventing them from occurring in the first place.
If they can push him to a win, they can claim that all the people who care about justice and human decency are just sore losers.
I can’t rightly conceive of the type of parent who would cheerfully watch their 14-year-old daughter go off on a date with a 32-year-old man. It’s beyond the pale.
I doubt the parents thought a 32 year old District Attorney was taking their kid on a date.
They probably, naively, assumed it was tutoring or civics engagement because he saw something special in their child that didn't involve her barely pubescent figure.
Leigh Corfman says she was 14 years old when an older man approached her outside a courtroom in Etowah County, Ala. She was sitting on a wooden bench with her mother, they both recall, when the man introduced himself as Roy Moore.
It was early 1979 and Moore — now the Republican nominee in Alabama for a U.S. Senate seat — was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney. He struck up a conversation, Corfman and her mother say, and offered to watch the girl while her mother went inside for a child custody hearing.
“He said, ‘Oh, you don’t want her to go in there and hear all that. I’ll stay out here with her,’ ” says Corfman’s mother, Nancy Wells, 71. “I thought, how nice for him to want to take care of my little girl.”
Alone with Corfman, Moore chatted with her and asked for her phone number, she says. Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.
...
Aside from Corfman, three other women interviewed by The Washington Post in recent weeks say Moore pursued them when they were between the ages of 16 and 18 and he was in his early 30s, episodes they say they found flattering at the time, but troubling as they got older. None of the three women say that Moore forced them into any sort of relationship or sexual contact.
Wendy Miller says she was 14 and working as a Santa’s helper at the Gadsden Mall when Moore first approached her, and 16 when he asked her on dates, which her mother forbade. Debbie Wesson Gibson says she was 17 when Moore spoke to her high school civics class and asked her out on the first of several dates that did not progress beyond kissing. Gloria Thacker Deason says she was an 18-year-old cheerleader when Moore began taking her on dates that included bottles of Mateus Rosé wine. The legal drinking age in Alabama was 19.
Of the four women, the youngest at the time was Corfman, who is the only one who says she had sexual contact with Moore that went beyond kissing. She says they did not have intercourse.
In a written statement, Moore denied the allegations.
And yes he's a racist, but let's not throw the fact that he's predator of young girls into the mill of other political attacks about him. I don't think the talk of specific allegations against him should shift to more general Alabama politics (which should still be addressed), and he shouldn't be humored when attempts to shift ground. He should be made to specifically answer for what he did to those girls.
A cursory Google search tells me there is no SOL for sex crimes for victims under 16 in Alabama but I could be mistaken.
In Alabama, the statute of limitations for bringing felony charges involving sexual abuse of a minor in 1979 would have run out three years later, and the time frame for filing a civil complaint would have ended when the alleged victim turned 21, according to Child USA, a nonprofit research and advocacy group at the University of Pennsylvania.
By 1982, Moore was by his own account in his book causing a stir in the district attorney’s office for his willingness to criticize the workings of the local legal system. He convened a grand jury to look into what he alleged were funding problems in the sheriff’s office. In response, Moore writes, the state bar association investigated him for going against the advice of the district attorney, an inquiry that was dismissed.
Soon after, Moore quit and began his first political campaign for the county’s circuit court judge position. He lost overwhelmingly, and left Alabama shortly thereafter, heading to Texas, where he says in his book that he trained as a kickboxer, and to Australia, where he says he lived on a ranch for a year wrangling cattle.
1 - I call 100% bullshit on both kickboxing and being a cowboy. Maybe he beat Einstein at chess and everyone applauded too
2 - I would not be surprised if additional cases could be found in those places.
Thinking about it, and particularly how Republican opposition research seems to never turn any of this shit up, I actually wonder if they have. I mean, the usual Republican response would be FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS DENY DENY DENY SMEAR JOB FAKE NEWS. Except that's not what happened. It instantly went to the "So what?" defense. I can kind of get that from the Alabama mini-politicians who probably all but knew about it for years, but all the DC ones? Are they just taking their cues from the Alabama doofuses? Or did they already know about it and were ready for it to come out and know claiming it was false would blow up in their faces?
It's a bit more prosaic (and infuriating) than that.
Moore's a Dominionist. "So what?" is in fact the default, first-step reaction from that type in sexual abuse scenarios, followed immediately by "that nasty woman imperiled my soul by compelling me to molest her, she is therefore damned."
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I am seeing people, especially those in Alabama, saying that this will make a huge difference. Moore was massively unpopular already, and everything he's won recently has ben by the thinnest of margins. Plus, Republicans in government in Alabama are double double SUPER DOUBLE unpopular due to a shitload of scandals from top to bottom. All the people they're talking to that support him are the far right craze-balls already crawled up his ass to begin with. This is going to drive already depressed turnout in a depressed election at a bad time even further down, and drive Democratic turnout up. I personally highly doubt it's enough to win it, but some reporters, this guy in particular (Esquire) from Alabama who's covered Moore in the past says that Moore's solidly screwed by this.
The probability that someone knows what's in the gospels (much less the rest of the bible) is inversely proportionate to how publicly they profess their zeal. I've yet to come across a politician justifying things from faith that isn't advocating things that aren't very Christian.
Coincidentally, publicly saying "look at me and my zeal" is something Jesus says not to do.
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Oh god, please let him be stupid enough to go through with this.
The dodgy stuff is not really in the Gospels.
Not sure how useful Discovery would be on this, but I'm sure WaPo would like to find out.
Yeah, but because she was already pregnant miraculously, not because she was too young.
Neither is all the stuff people cite when trying to criminalize homosexuality or abortion.
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I’m sure many of them would not be ok with it if it were their daughters. But since it’s someone else’s kids they don’t make the connection.
That seems the appropriate follow-up question.
"Would you be okay with a 32 year old male kissing your 14 year old daughter?"
What's the exact point where this turns into pedophilia? You can't Nickle and dime this Ffs!
It's a coping mechanism that has been well honed over the last several years.
To sue for defamation, he's got the burden to prove that the claims are false, no?
I hate that argument because it hints towards men seeing their daughters as property, but man, it's like the only thing to point out the absurdity of this argument to some people.
Public official. He's got to prove they are false and were printed with either actual malice (I.e. Knowledge of falsity) or "reckless disregard for the truth."
The standards for threatening to sue for libel are far lower than the standards for actually suing for libel.
These links absolutely need to be connected together, because this is pattern of behaviour surrounding minors and Moore.
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That's kinda what I was getting at. I'm almost 100% sure it's posturing to give him a little public deniability that never gets followed through on.
I doubt the parents thought a 32 year old District Attorney was taking their kid on a date.
They probably, naively, assumed it was tutoring or civics engagement because he saw something special in their child that didn't involve her barely pubescent figure.
He's a public figure. He needs to prove it's false, and that WaPo didn't think it was true.
Read the article. Moore was a hometown hero and legend. They talked to one woman who said her mother was thrilled by it (when she was 17 and he was 34).
Gotta love puffed-up outrage as a default response to claims when you could always at least, y'know, pretend to deny them.
(It's also interesting that he's going after the well-to-do organization the right hates while not saying a word about the accusers, who would have been the ones doing any actual defamation if there was defamation to be had..)
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Which was basically the first year of him being on the State Supreme Court the first time.
Just to let you know
Ziegler the guy who said that one quote (the state auditor) also spoke at League of the South meeting
He is pretty shit
Look at Donald Trump and the Republican establishment's reactions to everything that's wrong with him. They're more interested in covering up scandals than they are in preventing them from occurring in the first place.
If they can push him to a win, they can claim that all the people who care about justice and human decency are just sore losers.
The "just kissing" defense isn't even true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/woman-says-roy-moore-initiated-sexual-encounter-when-she-was-14-he-was-32/2017/11/09/1f495878-c293-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.5b4cac5195c0
I'm glad she was able to give a comment before she went out to sell Girl Scout cookies.
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QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
1 - I call 100% bullshit on both kickboxing and being a cowboy. Maybe he beat Einstein at chess and everyone applauded too
2 - I would not be surprised if additional cases could be found in those places.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
It's a bit more prosaic (and infuriating) than that.
Moore's a Dominionist. "So what?" is in fact the default, first-step reaction from that type in sexual abuse scenarios, followed immediately by "that nasty woman imperiled my soul by compelling me to molest her, she is therefore damned."