Illidan is Anti-Mage, Xul has no direct counterpart, but there are heroes that summon units to help push (Enigma, Nature's Prophet), and your go-to poison heroes are Viper and Venomancer.
Reading character profiles. Hmmm Pudge is basically Stitches.
Who are the equivalents for Illidan, Xul, and a poison character?
Illidan and Anti-Mage are literally the same character, so.
Wave clear isn't nearly as important in DotA as it is in HotS (it can still be important but is much more niche), so there's not really a parallel for Xul, and he has a mixture of abilities that's pretty unique. You want to spawn skellimans? Wraith King gotchu. Want to point-click root people? Crystal Maiden. Want Poison Nova? Venomancer.
As to poison characters? Well, yeah, Venomancer. He's named Venomancer.
those numbers don't really mean anything though since everything in dota does a billion fucking bullshit nonsense things that would be absolutely upside down and sideways broken in any other moba.
game is kinda nuts. shame about everything else aside from the teamfighting (imo of course).
It's kinda funny hearing stuff like this because there are a ton of things that are, in my head, horrifically broken and bad design choices in HotS that just full on would not work in League (my background) and would hopefully never be attempted.
The best way I can describe it is Marvel vs. Capcom 2 where there's a ton of shit that's absolutely bananas and made a ton of the roster irrelevant, yet somehow top tier was balanced against top tier. Just a completely different train of thought when you bend the rules in one direction instead of the other.
butts
0
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Thanks guys, I won't clog up the thread anymore.
Undying looks neat. Which means he's either awful, or OP.
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
those numbers don't really mean anything though since everything in dota does a billion fucking bullshit nonsense things that would be absolutely upside down and sideways broken in any other moba.
game is kinda nuts. shame about everything else aside from the teamfighting (imo of course).
It's kinda funny hearing stuff like this because there are a ton of things that are, in my head, horrifically broken and bad design choices in HotS that just full on would not work in League (my background) and would hopefully never be attempted.
The best way I can describe it is Marvel vs. Capcom 2 where there's a ton of shit that's absolutely bananas and made a ton of the roster irrelevant, yet somehow top tier was balanced against top tier. Just a completely different train of thought when you bend the rules in one direction instead of the other.
I'd like to hear which things in particular you'd think would break LoL. Comparing & contrasting MOBAs and the characters therein is like, super interesting to me for some reason.
those numbers don't really mean anything though since everything in dota does a billion fucking bullshit nonsense things that would be absolutely upside down and sideways broken in any other moba.
game is kinda nuts. shame about everything else aside from the teamfighting (imo of course).
It's kinda funny hearing stuff like this because there are a ton of things that are, in my head, horrifically broken and bad design choices in HotS that just full on would not work in League (my background) and would hopefully never be attempted.
The best way I can describe it is Marvel vs. Capcom 2 where there's a ton of shit that's absolutely bananas and made a ton of the roster irrelevant, yet somehow top tier was balanced against top tier. Just a completely different train of thought when you bend the rules in one direction instead of the other.
I'd like to hear which things in particular you'd think would break LoL. Comparing & contrasting MOBAs and the characters therein is like, super interesting to me for some reason.
A few quick thoughts, not super well written or thought out but hopefully some of the words typed make sense.
The Overwatch heroes that can move while attacking would wind up being really frustrating there too and hopefully that idea never does. The closest thing League had was Kalista, who hops a primarily fixed distance in between attacks rather than walking, is the closest thing and that was already hard enough to deal with for a chunk of the roster and was toned back several times after she was released, after they had buffed her initially since she didn't click with everyone right away.
Less point and click CC it feels, and they, for the most part, try to make characters that you can not only react to, but you can actually fight back. Wasn't always the case, one character had a stun opener from stealth (that lasted effectively until broken) plus burst but they took away the stun and gutted her stats and damage until they found a healthier spot for her with reworks. They had another assassin that could just delete you from stealth and had a silence on his opener but took the silence away from him since he could blink on you from about half a screen away and silence you, as a character that went in a spot primarily played by mages - who all have really shitty auto attacks and couldn't fight back. Point and click stuff exists but it's for the most part low range, low duration, long cooldown. Supports with heals don't heal for near as much - I also mention supports with heals because support doesn't mean you heal and shield allies (which was the case up until I think season two, where less traditional supports became more common and systems changed to enable other heroes to take up the role). The power budget of a champion feels like it's just way different.
Protected is something that exists in slightly different forms; one character has it as her ultimate but it lasts 1.5/2/2.5s. Another character has an ability that protects her from all non-structure damage and any and every debuff for .75s before striking forward with her weapon, dealing damage in a line (stopping at first champ hit) and slows movement and attack speed. If hard CC (stun, suppression, displacement) is blocked, it stuns. It's a basic ability but it's on a long cooldown (24s I think rank one, maxes last so it's there most of the game). Another character has it in a large AoE as his ultimate but it's heavily telegraphed and takes I think 2.5s after pressing R to actually go off...and also lasts 2.5s. Seeing it cast means turn and kill them immediately or fully disengage. If Medivh existed in League he would likely be 100% pick/ban.
Something like Chromie W even I don't think has ever made it into League. There are high damage skillshots but they all have some indication of where the fuck they're going (also less range) rather than you having to figure out where she's going to place it. Temporal Loop, if it ever made it over, would likely be a less drastic rewind or it would have significantly less range, probably both.
Butcher's also a weird one because there's been plenty of times where it's like...alright he pressed E on me and now I'm fucked. There are situations where you die because X got close to you but I would say the majority of those situations are because they happened to get really strong that game early - trying to fight a five kill assassin without being equally as strong is a bad idea, similarly to fighting a level ten team while you're level eight. That's another thing that feels different; individual input is harder to gauge. Your entire team winds up slightly stronger if you do well in HotS. In League you are stronger than your opponent.
Your team benefits but it's also possible that your duo lane is really strong but your solo lanes are feeding so each team has to play to their strengths accordingly.
butts
+1
Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
Ohh. Blaze might be my first day 1 purchase new hero.
I'm sure all this was discussed weeks ago when Hanzo came out, but good god damn, Serrated Arrows really lets you shred mercs and things like the neutral Immortal and Garden Terror. After 7 I could take out a Siege Giant camp in under 10 seconds if I didn't flub it. With my build I was doing Butcher like damage during the immortal battle phase if I was left alone. Of course being left alone is a big caveat and I go to pieces on Hanzo if anyone comes after me. The limited range on his trait is so frustrating when you're playing as him.
one of the simplest ways of thinking about lol is that they want individual abilities to be less impactful than a big dota ability, but they want you to use those abilities more often, creating a different pace to success and victory in initiations, trading, teamfights, etc
0
Waffles or whateverPreviously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen"Registered Userregular
Playing some games tonight after coming back from vacation. I'm not seeing any snowball issues, but I am getting a lot of games where my team is completely uncoordinated gaggle fucks against well coordinated teams. And of course, since I am support, it's always my fault. :rolleyes:
Most of my losses tonights, if not all of them are always the results of Hanzos. There's a difference between contributing team winning damage vs pokes. I think most Hanzos don't realize that micro damage that immediately gets healed over by supports is meaningless. All they see is that they are dealing damage, which means they are the best.
Blaze looks neat, but all this talk about a massive shift in game flow and pacing makes me very shy about coming back.
I've actually taken a semi-break from the game over the shift. I don't play nearly as much but this has actually helped me enjoy my time more since I generally only play with other people rather than solo into this. I've had the pleasure to watch a lot of @milk ducks games on Twitch and ... woof. I sometimes get exhausted just watching it.
But the plus side is I'm also not feeling the same burnout by slow rolling through it. The Malfurion rework will get me heavier into it so I look forward to that. His healing output looked so weak at first glance but if you can land those Moonfires, it's such a boon.
Also extra mana management as early as level 7 if I take it is AWESOME for him. Given the extra armor he provides and the lower CD, I'll also be giving Tranquility another go. TD is still, obviously, super strong, but I love being a healbot on him too so any bonuses seem great. So much cool stuff. I just need some of you on to queue up with since it's always a pain to try a new healer in QM
I usually have a hard time getting into PA groups (i guess I'm bad? Some certainly think so) so i usually solo unless RL friends are on. So the mass exodus over the changes doesn't change much for me.
Personally I'm always going to come back to this game, as it's the one multiplayer game I play consistently and that my real-life friends play. I really do hope that few from our community (especially ducks) quit though, as I really do have fun with the tourneys and analysis in the thread.
Are you talking about when you're hammering the D key, and he just stands there...stoically getting shot in the face to prove how sorry he is for murdering his brother?
Personally I'm always going to come back to this game, as it's the one multiplayer game I play consistently and that my real-life friends play. I really do hope that few from our community (especially ducks) quit though, as I really do have fun with the tourneys and analysis in the thread.
This is really the only online community I've ever played games with. I've posted on other forums, and my wow guild years ago was friends of real life friends but this is different. It's a little sad for that and other reasons that blizzard has killed my desire to play so thoroughly. It isn't really conducive to enjoyable games when the experience is so miserable.
I usually have a hard time getting into PA groups (i guess I'm bad? Some certainly think so) so i usually solo unless RL friends are on. So the mass exodus over the changes doesn't change much for me.
We just grouped the other day! Assuming blizzard makes some worthwhile changes I'm always fine grouping with people. Although admittedly I will afk at the drop of a hat so it isn't necessarily me ignoring people.
Yeah I've played this game more than any other and have thoroughly enjoyed my time with you folks. It's why I'm going to keep hanging out here. And I've got faith that this isn't really how blizzard wants it and that they'll fix it eventually.
bnet: Supagoat#1884
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+4
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I've definitely spent way more time in this thread than in the game itself, so I'll still be around whenever they fix things :P
I can't believe they haven't even put out a "we're monitoring how the changes affect gameplay and will adjust as necessary" statement of some sort yet.
XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
I can't believe they haven't even put out a "we're monitoring how the changes affect gameplay and will adjust as necessary" statement of some sort yet.
In their defense it is 0930 on their second day back.
Then again there wasn't an outpouring of social media outrage which I guess is how things get done anymore I don't know
I can't believe they haven't even put out a "we're monitoring how the changes affect gameplay and will adjust as necessary" statement of some sort yet.
In their defense it is 0930 on their second day back.
Then again there wasn't an outpouring of social media outrage which I guess is how things get done anymore I don't know
Have any pros commented on this yet? Like, I get that there are people here (whose opinions I value) and Reddit (whose opinions I don't care about) that don't like the changes with a burning passion . But it's also possible that's a vocal minority?
I can't believe they haven't even put out a "we're monitoring how the changes affect gameplay and will adjust as necessary" statement of some sort yet.
In their defense it is 0930 on their second day back.
Then again there wasn't an outpouring of social media outrage which I guess is how things get done anymore I don't know
Have any pros commented on this yet? Like, I get that there are people here (whose opinions I value) and Reddit (whose opinions I don't care about) that don't like the changes with a burning passion . But it's also possible that's a vocal minority?
I'm not sure there has been any comment anywhere but here. Admittedly I don't really look at Reddit much, once in a blue moon, but Twitter has been silent on the subject from what I've seen. Going back to what antaeus said recently, this could be exactly what Blizzard intended, and maybe it is what the masses never knew they wanted. Everything is bizarrely quiet.
Game times are running a bit faster than we'd like now, particularly in high MMR bands. There are some thinking changes coming soon to help out with that.
Yea, that sounds about right. I feel like too the problem isn't the average game, long games can still run long. It's just a lot of games are over in 15 minutes or less because victory conditions are much easier to achieve. High mmr bands comment also feels about right, because those are people who are more likely to grab their lead by the throat and keep it, and then recognize that the game is over, and not allow the other team back in it for no reason.
he also posted
They're tied together. The shorter game times are largely driven by the strength of push, particularly with mercenaries, allowing the leading team to take structures and end before the other team has time to come back.
Increasing the strength of pushing with mercs is intended, but its likely a bit too strong right now.
which yea. knight camps are ludicrous. just the spell armor thing would have been good, buffing their health to space while also cratering building dps was probably a bit much.
Completely not HotS related, but I figured you guys would appreciate it. A friend of mine from college works for Monolith and decided to model Prime Evil Diablo for fun.
The talent some people possess and their determination to craft it into such an impressive skill is staggering to me.
Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
I don't see why Blizzard would be in a rush to change things. The new HGC season hasn't started yet and until the pros figure out the meta, the rest of us are sort of blindly guessing. It's probably the case that camps are really good and teams should draft a hero who is good at taking them and smaller advantages are more likely to snowball to victory now. That's a bit different than how things were before but it doesn't mean that the game is worse. I like the idea of early laning being important and the game not always being decided through late game teamfights.
Personally, my games have felt pretty much the same. QM has been QM and hero league feels about the same with a few different ban and priority picks. In both my teammates engage 4v5 and then die horribly so nothing has changed.
Battlenet ID: NullPointer
+1
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Like I said, we'll likely see some small tweaks that go a long way towards mitigating the snowball factor in certain games. That being said, I think this is indicative of where they want the game to move.
I honestly don't mind it all that much, but I do think that it will take time for people to re-sort themselves properly. One way to think about these changes is that it increases the value on certain skills and knowledge, and decreases the value of others. In particular, prior to the changes a lot of players were able to get by on literally not paying attention to the map or objectives. You could literally split push all game or just "play defense" all game or literally dick around for the first 15 minutes and then wait for your late game to turn on or the coin flip final fight to go in your favor and win the game. This is no longer a viable strategy, or if it is then it requires significantly more skill and execution to pull off (e.g., getting killed as a split pusher is much more punishable; playing defense for the first 15 minutes may cost you more than just one keep or even the game if you do not draft or play properly; etc.).
One thing I'm noticing in my games is that there is clearly at least one person on my team who frankly does not belong at the MMR. They literally ignore the objective, push all game, and die repeatedly. Or they get caught out in no-man's land where the enemy team is obviously waiting for them right before an objective spawns. Or we get a team wipe and their first course of action is to immediately go back to a random lane and not help the team get some kind of value. These players were winning a lot of games prior to these changes by sheer random chance - either their team carried them past their "small" mistakes or they managed to hang around long enough for the 50% coin flip Level 20+ fight. Now these players are dropping. Rapidly. And every single game they play in, their 4 teammates are dragged down with them.
Over the long term this should balance out, as people who know what they are doing will simply go down more slowly. But it will take time and a lot of games. And if players get fed up enough, they will simply stop playing entirely. Unfortunately, one of the things that might help to mitigate this issue, MMR decay, is not being implemented in HotS.
Which is part of why I get so frustrated about how HL Placements and the MMR system works today. Blizzard drastically underestimates the negative impact of putting players in games where there is a significant skill variance. That shit is just not fun for the majority of people in those games even when they are winning, and definitely not when they are losing. What we're seeing now is a similar situation on steroids, where the game meta has changed so much that "everyone" is getting resorted on a constant basis.
Posts
Reading character profiles. Hmmm Pudge is basically Stitches.
Who are the equivalents for Illidan, Xul, and a poison character?
Illidan and Anti-Mage are literally the same character, so.
Wave clear isn't nearly as important in DotA as it is in HotS (it can still be important but is much more niche), so there's not really a parallel for Xul, and he has a mixture of abilities that's pretty unique. You want to spawn skellimans? Wraith King gotchu. Want to point-click root people? Crystal Maiden. Want Poison Nova? Venomancer.
As to poison characters? Well, yeah, Venomancer. He's named Venomancer.
The best way I can describe it is Marvel vs. Capcom 2 where there's a ton of shit that's absolutely bananas and made a ton of the roster irrelevant, yet somehow top tier was balanced against top tier. Just a completely different train of thought when you bend the rules in one direction instead of the other.
Undying looks neat. Which means he's either awful, or OP.
I'd like to hear which things in particular you'd think would break LoL. Comparing & contrasting MOBAs and the characters therein is like, super interesting to me for some reason.
anti-mage's name is anti-mage
Less point and click CC it feels, and they, for the most part, try to make characters that you can not only react to, but you can actually fight back. Wasn't always the case, one character had a stun opener from stealth (that lasted effectively until broken) plus burst but they took away the stun and gutted her stats and damage until they found a healthier spot for her with reworks. They had another assassin that could just delete you from stealth and had a silence on his opener but took the silence away from him since he could blink on you from about half a screen away and silence you, as a character that went in a spot primarily played by mages - who all have really shitty auto attacks and couldn't fight back. Point and click stuff exists but it's for the most part low range, low duration, long cooldown. Supports with heals don't heal for near as much - I also mention supports with heals because support doesn't mean you heal and shield allies (which was the case up until I think season two, where less traditional supports became more common and systems changed to enable other heroes to take up the role). The power budget of a champion feels like it's just way different.
Protected is something that exists in slightly different forms; one character has it as her ultimate but it lasts 1.5/2/2.5s. Another character has an ability that protects her from all non-structure damage and any and every debuff for .75s before striking forward with her weapon, dealing damage in a line (stopping at first champ hit) and slows movement and attack speed. If hard CC (stun, suppression, displacement) is blocked, it stuns. It's a basic ability but it's on a long cooldown (24s I think rank one, maxes last so it's there most of the game). Another character has it in a large AoE as his ultimate but it's heavily telegraphed and takes I think 2.5s after pressing R to actually go off...and also lasts 2.5s. Seeing it cast means turn and kill them immediately or fully disengage. If Medivh existed in League he would likely be 100% pick/ban.
Something like Chromie W even I don't think has ever made it into League. There are high damage skillshots but they all have some indication of where the fuck they're going (also less range) rather than you having to figure out where she's going to place it. Temporal Loop, if it ever made it over, would likely be a less drastic rewind or it would have significantly less range, probably both.
Butcher's also a weird one because there's been plenty of times where it's like...alright he pressed E on me and now I'm fucked. There are situations where you die because X got close to you but I would say the majority of those situations are because they happened to get really strong that game early - trying to fight a five kill assassin without being equally as strong is a bad idea, similarly to fighting a level ten team while you're level eight. That's another thing that feels different; individual input is harder to gauge. Your entire team winds up slightly stronger if you do well in HotS. In League you are stronger than your opponent.
Your team benefits but it's also possible that your duo lane is really strong but your solo lanes are feeding so each team has to play to their strengths accordingly.
Most of my losses tonights, if not all of them are always the results of Hanzos. There's a difference between contributing team winning damage vs pokes. I think most Hanzos don't realize that micro damage that immediately gets healed over by supports is meaningless. All they see is that they are dealing damage, which means they are the best.
We're one week away from a Firebat hero called "Blaze", dude.
That was probably me. I've been loving it so far!
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
I've actually taken a semi-break from the game over the shift. I don't play nearly as much but this has actually helped me enjoy my time more since I generally only play with other people rather than solo into this. I've had the pleasure to watch a lot of @milk ducks games on Twitch and ... woof. I sometimes get exhausted just watching it.
But the plus side is I'm also not feeling the same burnout by slow rolling through it. The Malfurion rework will get me heavier into it so I look forward to that. His healing output looked so weak at first glance but if you can land those Moonfires, it's such a boon.
Also extra mana management as early as level 7 if I take it is AWESOME for him. Given the extra armor he provides and the lower CD, I'll also be giving Tranquility another go. TD is still, obviously, super strong, but I love being a healbot on him too so any bonuses seem great. So much cool stuff. I just need some of you on to queue up with since it's always a pain to try a new healer in QM
Steam: CavilatRest
shit, man
i literally can't play him til that's fixed, blah
and i really do wanna give him a shot
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
This is really the only online community I've ever played games with. I've posted on other forums, and my wow guild years ago was friends of real life friends but this is different. It's a little sad for that and other reasons that blizzard has killed my desire to play so thoroughly. It isn't really conducive to enjoyable games when the experience is so miserable.
We just grouped the other day! Assuming blizzard makes some worthwhile changes I'm always fine grouping with people. Although admittedly I will afk at the drop of a hat so it isn't necessarily me ignoring people.
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Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
In their defense it is 0930 on their second day back.
Then again there wasn't an outpouring of social media outrage which I guess is how things get done anymore I don't know
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
Have any pros commented on this yet? Like, I get that there are people here (whose opinions I value) and Reddit (whose opinions I don't care about) that don't like the changes with a burning passion
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I'm not sure there has been any comment anywhere but here. Admittedly I don't really look at Reddit much, once in a blue moon, but Twitter has been silent on the subject from what I've seen. Going back to what antaeus said recently, this could be exactly what Blizzard intended, and maybe it is what the masses never knew they wanted. Everything is bizarrely quiet.
This could be the case as well. No one is happy how that turned out, least of all Blizzard
Edit: naturally I hop over to Reddit real quick and there has been a blizzard response
Someone crunched numbers and on average games are 1:44 shorter ~8.5%
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So apparently this patch was directly targeted at PA forum members :P
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Gonna be really disappointed if his talents aren't full of lame weed references.
he also posted
which yea. knight camps are ludicrous. just the spell armor thing would have been good, buffing their health to space while also cratering building dps was probably a bit much.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Sonya/Illidan/Rex/etc can often take TWO camps before the first objective even spawns now. It's just ridiculous what that does to the other team.
Battle.net: morgancoke#1589
Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
The talent some people possess and their determination to craft it into such an impressive skill is staggering to me.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Personally, my games have felt pretty much the same. QM has been QM and hero league feels about the same with a few different ban and priority picks. In both my teammates engage 4v5 and then die horribly so nothing has changed.
I honestly don't mind it all that much, but I do think that it will take time for people to re-sort themselves properly. One way to think about these changes is that it increases the value on certain skills and knowledge, and decreases the value of others. In particular, prior to the changes a lot of players were able to get by on literally not paying attention to the map or objectives. You could literally split push all game or just "play defense" all game or literally dick around for the first 15 minutes and then wait for your late game to turn on or the coin flip final fight to go in your favor and win the game. This is no longer a viable strategy, or if it is then it requires significantly more skill and execution to pull off (e.g., getting killed as a split pusher is much more punishable; playing defense for the first 15 minutes may cost you more than just one keep or even the game if you do not draft or play properly; etc.).
One thing I'm noticing in my games is that there is clearly at least one person on my team who frankly does not belong at the MMR. They literally ignore the objective, push all game, and die repeatedly. Or they get caught out in no-man's land where the enemy team is obviously waiting for them right before an objective spawns. Or we get a team wipe and their first course of action is to immediately go back to a random lane and not help the team get some kind of value. These players were winning a lot of games prior to these changes by sheer random chance - either their team carried them past their "small" mistakes or they managed to hang around long enough for the 50% coin flip Level 20+ fight. Now these players are dropping. Rapidly. And every single game they play in, their 4 teammates are dragged down with them.
Over the long term this should balance out, as people who know what they are doing will simply go down more slowly. But it will take time and a lot of games. And if players get fed up enough, they will simply stop playing entirely. Unfortunately, one of the things that might help to mitigate this issue, MMR decay, is not being implemented in HotS.
Which is part of why I get so frustrated about how HL Placements and the MMR system works today. Blizzard drastically underestimates the negative impact of putting players in games where there is a significant skill variance. That shit is just not fun for the majority of people in those games even when they are winning, and definitely not when they are losing. What we're seeing now is a similar situation on steroids, where the game meta has changed so much that "everyone" is getting resorted on a constant basis.