He can't do the job effectively and he's providing cover for the likes of Trump and Moore.
Franken aside, we need to move past the idea that Trump/Moore supporters give a shit about the appearance of hypocrisy, or intellectual consistency, or anything along those lines. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I'd give a hyperbolic example, but it wouldn't be any more absurd than things Trump has actually done that his crowd still eats up.
He can't do the job effectively and he's providing cover for the likes of Trump and Moore.
Franken aside, we need to move past the idea that Trump/Moore supporters give a shit about the appearance of hypocrisy, or intellectual consistency, or anything along those lines. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I'd give a hyperbolic example, but it wouldn't be any more absurd than things Trump has actually done that his crowd still eats up.
I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the people who will be much easier to convince to stay home and not vote because eh they're all the same. Of the ones who wouldn't have voted for Moore but now might because they now have a way to equivocate and hold their nose enough.
The Democrats having the stain of sexual assault on their collective character absolutely has an effect on swing voters. Whataboutism is real, and they only have to stay home out of disgust for both sides.
At this point even Franken resigning won't stop the comparisons and what abouts from being made. It'll just change the phrasing from "democrat does shitty things" to "democrat resigns over shitty things he does." So he shouldn't resign to make that go away, he should resign because it's the correct thing to do.
+1
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BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
The Democrats having the stain of sexual assault on their collective character absolutely has an effect on swing voters. Whataboutism is real, and they only have to stay home out of disgust for both sides.
it is thankfully a choice I don't have to make
but if a future vote came down to franken and whatever republican
yeah I probably would have to abstain from voting or write in a third party
I can't knowingly let someone who sexually assaults women remain in power
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
"japanese people are elves and I despise them" - also g. k. chesterton
This also plays into a bigger problem with the Democratic party. A guest on Pod Save America argued that, when you think "Republican", you think anti-gun control, anti-abortion, tax cuts, small government. When you think "Democrat", you think FDR, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama.
The Democratic party doesn't have platform planks, they have big names. Any number of democrats have refused to endorse a hike in the minimum wage, or fought to be the last on the bus to endorse marriage equality. The ACA passed, but Democrats were so reluctant to actually defend it that it limped over the finish line and it took years more before people really cared about the program and what it could do for them. One democrat made headlines a few months back when they said that being pro-choice wasn't that important for Democratic candidates. The party isn't a party of ideals, it's a party of personalities. That can only win so many elections.
If I don't know much about a candidate, I don't have any firm idea what them being a Democrat means, what they stand for. I am very suceptible to whatever media I happen to take in to color my view of them.
Democrats choosing to stick behind Franken and Croyner (and Bill Clinton, in a different way), means they still aren't taking a stand, on what should be such an easy issue to take a stand on. They still don't have anything to rally behind past a few big names. Those few names aren't going to put more Democrats in office. The party had an opportunity to display that they were more than a few big names, that they were about moral, humane policy, and they didn't.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
Replace Franken with somebody more progressive. As recently as four months ago he was refusing to come out in favor of single payer healthcare. Possibly because over the past five years he received $73,000 in campaign contributions from pharma and healthcare PACs.
That the pill exists is on Moore and to a lesser extent the DNC for not finding this shit during oppo research.
none of this would exist if Al Franken had just not harassed women
this situation flat out does not exist if he hadn't, but he did.
+32
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
"The will of the people" would be voting him out next term, or to circulate a recall petition in his voting district in accordance with state laws. Those are recognized routes of determining the will of the people. I know because we just did a whole thing about that here in Nevada that I had to learn all about so I could better yell at people who came to my doorstep. Draft a petition so that the will of the people can be officially recognized! People who were not involved in the original circumstance shouting at him on twitter that he should step down without any of that, most of whom are not even his constituents, for something that none of the victims have yet said that they want, is not a good look.
Vote him out next term. Draft a petition to hold a recall election so voting can happen sooner. Do it through those channels. Stepping down right now with nothing set in place for his replacement would be horrendously irresponsible of him. There is so much coming up for which that seat needs to be filled right now... especially in a climate where we're about to hear the will of Moore's potential constituents, and we can't say with certainty where we will be after that.
In this particular case, where public apologies have been given and accepted by one victim (and afaik not rejected by anyone else to whom he has given public apologies, The Will of the People can take the legal avenue where its opinion is useful and warranted and quantifiable.
If you say you respect the victim, accept that she has said she does not want what you are talking about because of what she said, and wait for a legal avenue to express this. It looks god awful to me, very definitely a survivor, to see someone with her experience say "yeah, it happened, he apologized and I accepted it because that's what I wanted in the first place, and my wish is that he stay in his position," and then a whole bunch of people go "nah" and tear that down by calling him names one might otherwise reserve for sex traffickers and child rapists while calling for blood.
I don't speak for all victims/survivors, as they wish to be identified. I only speak for myself, who has spent more than a year hearing "it doesn't matter if they did some shady shit, we need the seat" from the Democratic Party all over the country, and all of a sudden people are spitting fire and brimstone over... this. An apology given and accepted by the only people whose voices matter in this scenario (and I don't think there have been rejections of the others) should be enough until it's time to vote again (or sign a petition) in order to register your ire. But this reaction makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's just a different way to shout over victims trying to be heard only to wrest control of the situation away from them again. The wishes of victims who don't want action on their behalf are no less to be respected than those of victims who are telling you they need action. There are people right now sobbing in interviews who describe violence done to them the extent of which many cannot possibly appreciate. They need your help and support. Those afraid to come forward need your help and support, in whatever form they need that support to take, be it swift and decisive justice or a moderated response contingent upon the perpetrator's acceptance that they did a bad and apology acceptable to the abused.
Say "I believe this woman and I have respect for her process and her decision" and then don't vote for him if that's what you want. Failing to respect the wishes of people who want or need to be heard is re-victimization. Reconsider doing that; few who come forward want their feelings rejected and superceded by others.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I'm not scared of people who wear green camo in the fucking snow.
Pssssh. It's desert camo.
If you're going to point that out I'd like to point out that technically frozen tundra like that is a desert. Which means he's done nothing wrong in that photo.
I'm not scared of people who wear green camo in the fucking snow.
Pssssh. It's desert camo.
If you're going to point that out I'd like to point out that technically frozen tundra like that is a desert. Which means he's done nothing wrong in that photo.
Is that what you want Penguin? To enable him?
Hey, I didn't fight and die for my airsoft club for you civvies to steal my valor.
pro of electing women: much less likely to have committed sexual abuse
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
if women were equally represented in pretty much every position of power then the culture that encourages and protects sex abusers would be basically nonexistent.
I do not believe that at all.
Edit- not to say things wouldn't be better, but abuse of power occurs in practically all organisations regardless of the gender makeup of the group and is something that always needs to be guarded against. Organisations tend to close ranks and protect members. It takes bold leadership or a lot of pressure from members to hold people accountable.
Gvzbgul on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
if women were equally represented in pretty much every position of power then the culture that encourages and protects sex abusers would be basically nonexistent.
I really want to believe this is true but my brain is rejecting it. I think it would just look different. Whether or not you believe that women commit these abuses with the same frequency, political expediency is political expediency and people are willing to overlook a lot to get policy through without a fuss right now. No matter what side you're on, calling out your own peers runs directly counter to that goal.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
g. k. chesterton wrote very good detective stories but he was super racist and his politics were garbage
he has one trick, which is to be like "aha, some say that it is mad to believe in god, but in fact it is mad... to not believe in god". when he's not doing that he's ripping into the jews or the chinese
g. k. chesterton wrote very good detective stories but he was super racist and his politics were garbage
he has one trick, which is to be like "aha, some say that it is mad to believe in god, but in fact it is mad... to not believe in god". when he's not doing that he's ripping into the jews or the chinese
Yes; I misspoke earlier and should have said that ‘as much as I like his Father Brown stories’ (or loved, since it’s been years since I read them and they are no doubt problematic, I just can’t remember).’
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
Christianity cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Also, why be pissed at the money changers?
Why not be pissed at god for demanding sacrifices that require people to get their money changed to local currency?
Does anyone have the stats around the genders of teachers who have been caught sleeping with their students? In my head women are the majority, but I'm worried that's a false narrative driven by the media sensationalizing women who do it while they ignore men who do the same.
g. k. chesterton wrote very good detective stories but he was super racist and his politics were garbage
he has one trick, which is to be like "aha, some say that it is mad to believe in god, but in fact it is mad... to not believe in god". when he's not doing that he's ripping into the jews or the chinese
Yes; I misspoke earlier and should have said that ‘as much as I like his Father Brown stories’ (or loved, since it’s been years since I read them and they are no doubt problematic, I just can’t remember).’
they are actually very good but there's definitely a few extremely racist ones
My parents did the vast majority of my sex education and I am grateful to them because my Catholic school didn't really do much in the way of sex ed and then they didn't really cover it in my public high school.
I distinctly remember my friends and I having a conversation on the playground around 3rd or 4th grade about how they thought you had to pee in a girl's butt to get her pregnant and I tried to tell them the whole deal (the basics anyway) but they didn't believe me.
I also knew a guy that had already gotten into a good pre-med program before learning that women had a separate urethra.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
I feel like this is actually not that unusual though, tbh. I've definitely met plenty of other guys (and some women!) that don't understand the difference between the vagina proper and everything else that makes up the vulva.
I'm from Australia where we learn all about like things like this in dark van from a giraffe with someone's hand elbow deep in his bottom.
I would like to stress that this is in no way an exaggeration.
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
Christianity cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Also, why be pissed at the money changers?
Why not be pissed at god for demanding sacrifices that require people to get their money changed to local currency?
The temple had its -own- fake temple currency.
The money changers were foisting microtransactions on the people worshipping.
Pay to pray at its worst.
Does anyone have the stats around the genders of teachers who have been caught sleeping with their students? In my head women are the majority, but I'm worried that's a false narrative driven by the media sensationalizing women who do it while they ignore men who do the same.
I would still say they have a higher frequency of sexual misconduct and rape with students, the male teachers (at least at my high school) were under a microscope constantly.
Women are not some paragon of virtue. Some people would probably say "yes but it's less frequent!" and maybe that's true. Or maybe it's just underreported because of how we treat masculinity. I know for fucking sure that's how it worked in my case when I tried to report it.
Anyone who's been privy to some of my stories in the job thread know they can be just as gross and disgusting as men in all things sex.
e: though my own experience with sexual assault and harassment has sort of jaded me I guess
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
Christianity cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Also, why be pissed at the money changers?
Why not be pissed at god for demanding sacrifices that require people to get their money changed to local currency?
The temple had its -own- fake temple currency.
The money changers were foisting microtransactions on the people worshipping.
Pay to pray at its worst.
No they weren't.
Priests were, or god was.
Go fight priests, or god.
It's people like Evangelicals that give religion a bad name
And I say that as someone who is very non-religious. It sucks that what is mostly just a thing in people's lives that helps them through day to day matters, great and small, is then held up on a stick that also says a bunch of stupid, hateful, bigoted stuff by these sort of fuckwits
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K.C.
Also unsurprisingly there is a difference between being culturally religious and an active (and sincerely trying) adherent of said religion.
As much as I love GKC, as a former Christian who tried very, very hard, and runs in online communities with other former Christians who tried so hard that some of them were preachers or theologians for years, I disagree strongly with that quote!
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
Christianity cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Also, why be pissed at the money changers?
Why not be pissed at god for demanding sacrifices that require people to get their money changed to local currency?
The temple had its -own- fake temple currency.
The money changers were foisting microtransactions on the people worshipping.
Pay to pray at its worst.
No they weren't.
Priests were, or god was.
Go fight priests, or god.
Posts
Franken aside, we need to move past the idea that Trump/Moore supporters give a shit about the appearance of hypocrisy, or intellectual consistency, or anything along those lines. That ship sailed a long time ago.
I'd give a hyperbolic example, but it wouldn't be any more absurd than things Trump has actually done that his crowd still eats up.
I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the people who will be much easier to convince to stay home and not vote because eh they're all the same. Of the ones who wouldn't have voted for Moore but now might because they now have a way to equivocate and hold their nose enough.
it is thankfully a choice I don't have to make
but if a future vote came down to franken and whatever republican
yeah I probably would have to abstain from voting or write in a third party
I can't knowingly let someone who sexually assaults women remain in power
"japanese people are elves and I despise them" - also g. k. chesterton
That the pill exists is on Moore and to a lesser extent the DNC for not finding this shit during oppo research.
The Democratic party doesn't have platform planks, they have big names. Any number of democrats have refused to endorse a hike in the minimum wage, or fought to be the last on the bus to endorse marriage equality. The ACA passed, but Democrats were so reluctant to actually defend it that it limped over the finish line and it took years more before people really cared about the program and what it could do for them. One democrat made headlines a few months back when they said that being pro-choice wasn't that important for Democratic candidates. The party isn't a party of ideals, it's a party of personalities. That can only win so many elections.
If I don't know much about a candidate, I don't have any firm idea what them being a Democrat means, what they stand for. I am very suceptible to whatever media I happen to take in to color my view of them.
Democrats choosing to stick behind Franken and Croyner (and Bill Clinton, in a different way), means they still aren't taking a stand, on what should be such an easy issue to take a stand on. They still don't have anything to rally behind past a few big names. Those few names aren't going to put more Democrats in office. The party had an opportunity to display that they were more than a few big names, that they were about moral, humane policy, and they didn't.
This thread is kind of amusing.
none of this would exist if Al Franken had just not harassed women
this situation flat out does not exist if he hadn't, but he did.
Vote him out next term. Draft a petition to hold a recall election so voting can happen sooner. Do it through those channels. Stepping down right now with nothing set in place for his replacement would be horrendously irresponsible of him. There is so much coming up for which that seat needs to be filled right now... especially in a climate where we're about to hear the will of Moore's potential constituents, and we can't say with certainty where we will be after that.
In this particular case, where public apologies have been given and accepted by one victim (and afaik not rejected by anyone else to whom he has given public apologies, The Will of the People can take the legal avenue where its opinion is useful and warranted and quantifiable.
If you say you respect the victim, accept that she has said she does not want what you are talking about because of what she said, and wait for a legal avenue to express this. It looks god awful to me, very definitely a survivor, to see someone with her experience say "yeah, it happened, he apologized and I accepted it because that's what I wanted in the first place, and my wish is that he stay in his position," and then a whole bunch of people go "nah" and tear that down by calling him names one might otherwise reserve for sex traffickers and child rapists while calling for blood.
I don't speak for all victims/survivors, as they wish to be identified. I only speak for myself, who has spent more than a year hearing "it doesn't matter if they did some shady shit, we need the seat" from the Democratic Party all over the country, and all of a sudden people are spitting fire and brimstone over... this. An apology given and accepted by the only people whose voices matter in this scenario (and I don't think there have been rejections of the others) should be enough until it's time to vote again (or sign a petition) in order to register your ire. But this reaction makes me extremely uncomfortable. It's just a different way to shout over victims trying to be heard only to wrest control of the situation away from them again. The wishes of victims who don't want action on their behalf are no less to be respected than those of victims who are telling you they need action. There are people right now sobbing in interviews who describe violence done to them the extent of which many cannot possibly appreciate. They need your help and support. Those afraid to come forward need your help and support, in whatever form they need that support to take, be it swift and decisive justice or a moderated response contingent upon the perpetrator's acceptance that they did a bad and apology acceptable to the abused.
Say "I believe this woman and I have respect for her process and her decision" and then don't vote for him if that's what you want. Failing to respect the wishes of people who want or need to be heard is re-victimization. Reconsider doing that; few who come forward want their feelings rejected and superceded by others.
That was supposed to be Franken, yes.
This image...
these insane people terrify me as much as they make me laugh, so many people believe they are "operatives" fighting against some vast conspiracy.
Don't look down the barrel to see if it's jammed rookie! That's what this pointy metal rod is for!
What to wear, which end of the gun is shooty.
How to breath oxygen efficently.
But I'm pretty sure those are tactical khakis being worn there. TactiKhakis if you will.
I'm scared of paranoid ideological idiots with guns no matter how bad they are at camouflage
Is that what you want Penguin? To enable him?
Edit- not to say things wouldn't be better, but abuse of power occurs in practically all organisations regardless of the gender makeup of the group and is something that always needs to be guarded against. Organisations tend to close ranks and protect members. It takes bold leadership or a lot of pressure from members to hold people accountable.
I really want to believe this is true but my brain is rejecting it. I think it would just look different. Whether or not you believe that women commit these abuses with the same frequency, political expediency is political expediency and people are willing to overlook a lot to get policy through without a fuss right now. No matter what side you're on, calling out your own peers runs directly counter to that goal.
That quote is like saying, "real communism has never been tried"
he has one trick, which is to be like "aha, some say that it is mad to believe in god, but in fact it is mad... to not believe in god". when he's not doing that he's ripping into the jews or the chinese
Christianity cannot fail, it can only be failed.
Also, why be pissed at the money changers?
Why not be pissed at god for demanding sacrifices that require people to get their money changed to local currency?
they are actually very good but there's definitely a few extremely racist ones
Yaayyyy
The little van of body horrors
I skipped out of that as soon as I could.
The temple had its -own- fake temple currency.
The money changers were foisting microtransactions on the people worshipping.
Pay to pray at its worst.
Women make up about 3/4 of all teachers, so, it'd make sense they'd be overrepresented there.
I would still say they have a higher frequency of sexual misconduct and rape with students, the male teachers (at least at my high school) were under a microscope constantly.
Women are not some paragon of virtue. Some people would probably say "yes but it's less frequent!" and maybe that's true. Or maybe it's just underreported because of how we treat masculinity. I know for fucking sure that's how it worked in my case when I tried to report it.
Anyone who's been privy to some of my stories in the job thread know they can be just as gross and disgusting as men in all things sex.
e: though my own experience with sexual assault and harassment has sort of jaded me I guess
I didn’t expect it and wish I had gotten a little more warning about what he wanted to talk about but I guess I appreciate it?
Gonna need to process this for a bit.
No they weren't.
Priests were, or god was.
Go fight priests, or god.
(was jokes about games)