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[D&D 5E] Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    The big problem is that say, attacking multiple times incurs a penalty for each one after the first. Maybe not a problem... until you realize trying to Grapple is considered an attack in this case, along with a few other things.

    It also leans hard into one of my assorted issues with 3rd: that non-caster classes are penalized for doing their thing.

    But honestly, this whole move by Paizo just makes me annoyed more then anything else, since it has it's roots in being a D&D clone (not neccesarily a bad thing mind you, many RPG's have their roots in being clones) and rather then try and develop a more distinct game that moves further away from what Wizards is doing, they've decided to simply try and raid it for 5th and 4th edition mechanics.

    And If I wanted to play 4th I'd get my friends together, give them a quick rundown on character generation and go for it, and If I want to play 5th I can go to my local comic book shop on tuesdays and play the shit out of that. Best of all, I get to do it without dealing with Pathfinders rules bloat or inane setting.

    There are lots of problems with pathfinder. I could go on a long long list of things that are totally wrong and bonkers bad with pathfinder. But stealing better mechanics from DnD is not one of them

    The main problem that most PnP RPG's have is that the writers have a system but don't know why they have a system. Alternately they find a mechanic they like but don't understand why it works or what it does. Vampire d10 is the perfect example of this. It has tonnes of fiddly rules for individual actions that characters can do and these things read kind of cool and maybe work... except you literally cannot sit down and play a game of Vampire using these rules because characters end up so hyperspecialized they should almost never be in the same place at the same time.

    DnD 4e and 5e do not suffer from these problems (well, not much) and the things they do they do well enough that they're worth aping.

    Pathfinder was built on 3e, which was one of these systems. It was a game designed and built as a simulation with no reason to ever simulate. Thus playing it became problematic, especially as players knew more of the rules. It would be like playing "real life" where you got to design your own character. "And here we have our party of 5 CEO's".

    The thing that pathfinder wants to do is a thing that 4e and 5e do really well. So if you want to make a newish system that does those things its totally fair to build on those aspects.

    Its like comparing cars. 4e and 5e upgraded to this new cool technology called "round wheels" and built a sports car and a station wagon out of them. Pathfinder folks really like their monster truck even if it has square wheels. Upgrading to round wheels won't make it not a monster truck and doesn't harm the sports car or station wagon.


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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 10
    Sleep wrote: »
    pathfinder's setting is your standard kitchen sink setting, you can generally find a where when and how for almost any scenario.

    Instead of creating multiple campaign settings they instead made each region very unique. If you recall 4E's Bael Turath, Pathfinder's nation of Cheliax is pretty much that as a fleshed-out setting. There's also a nation where magic does not work so they've had to develop technology to adapt, as well as a nation with a giant crashed spaceship.

    I don't plan to actually play Pathfinder, but to its credit they've put out a lot of supplements to flesh out every aspect of their setting.

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  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Well.

    There's a LOT of "Iconics".

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  • never dienever die Registered User regular
    Yeah the Inner Sea World Guide book they released for the setting is actually pretty interesting, with a lot of unique areas, countries, and city-states that allow for a large amount of diversity and areas to play in. The setting, if you are going to fill out in large swaths and allow people to fill in the details themselves. I've only really played in the actual Pathfinder setting in one campaign, but it was really fun.

    while its also its largest fault, I personally do find Pathfinder's (now) 1st edition way of balancing 3rd edition gameplay fun; which is essentially by balancing all of the classes by barely touching the broken classes but then taking the other classes and cranking them to 11. Feats every level for fighters, with high versatility and boosted damage/defense. Rogues that can do incredible things with skills, and having crazy versatility. Crazy monk archetypes. Bards that are a shit-ton more versatile than in 3rd edition.

    Its weakness is also in that complexity, as Pathfinder can be pretty complicated and convoluted to learn (though oddly enough, not nearly as bad as 3rd edition to me). I've had spreadhseets and mathematical formulas I've dropped classes into to increase my attacks and abilities when I level up, and to explain quickly how my class I'm playing works. The first time we played in 5th edition was after we played a 30 level, mythic rank 10 campaign where everyone had pages of extra material that needed to be on hand to explain how everything worked and adjust on the fly depending on what happened in the combat.

    5th edition was a god-send after that.

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  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Yeah I keep trying to go back and just make a character for Pathfinder but find myself staring blankly after a little bit.

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    MrVyngaard
  • LindLind Registered User regular
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Lind wrote: »
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

    I have played through this at a table game, though we were on the higher side of the level range at about Level 5. It was plenty of fun! We apparently missed a lot of the nastier stuff in the depths...

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    Lind
  • SolanalesSolanales CMYKMatter Registered User regular
    Lind wrote: »
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

    Give it a shot man. I've read through it and it's a fun little adventure. Premades can be a nice way to fill some time while you prep for the bigger stuff. That's how I use them anyways.


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    Lind
  • LindLind Registered User regular
    Thanks for the opinions. Its not expensive so I’ll give it a go and see how its different from what we normally play.

  • SolanalesSolanales CMYKMatter Registered User regular
    I mean it'll be different for sure but you can still wrap premades in to your campaign. It's not that bad to just warp things a little bit so they fit in the world you're running with.


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  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Heck I'm going to grab this too and have it be a set of plot hooks for my pirate adventure. What better to than find tales of an abandoned Dwarven stronghold that contains valuable loot and powerful weapons? I can have a map that has a literal X marking the spot of the entrance!

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    Lind
  • SolanalesSolanales CMYKMatter Registered User regular
    That's literally perfect for a pirate campaign haha. That'll be a fun experience.


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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    .
    Lind wrote: »
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

    Forge is kind of a dungeon written by an asshole; litterally every encounter has some tactics McGee rules abusing horseshit going on that is going to lead to the players basically murdering everything and everyone in sight because their is a good chance that it is their for the express purpose of murdering you.

    If this sounds like a good time then go for it, though I offer fair warning that the dragon fight is bafflingly unfair.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    MrVyngaard
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I pacified a rust monster today by feeding it all the metal I had on my person (thankfully my character doesn't use armor). It promptly rolled over and went to sleep, so I tied it to a rock and the party took a long rest with a potential rust monster guard. When we left we gave it a pile of copper pieces to eat and cut the ropes.

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I pacified a rust monster today by feeding it all the metal I had on my person (thankfully my character doesn't use armor). It promptly rolled over and went to sleep, so I tied it to a rock and the party took a long rest with a potential rust monster guard. When we left we gave it a pile of copper pieces to eat and cut the ropes.

    Did you bring it with you?

    You should adopt it as a pet.

    10gfu9v.jpg
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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 11
    Zonugal wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    I pacified a rust monster today by feeding it all the metal I had on my person (thankfully my character doesn't use armor). It promptly rolled over and went to sleep, so I tied it to a rock and the party took a long rest with a potential rust monster guard. When we left we gave it a pile of copper pieces to eat and cut the ropes.

    Did you bring it with you?

    You should adopt it as a pet.

    Well the other party members use armor and metal weapons. My character is a sorcerer, so I didn't have anything to lose.

    Our nature cleric is constantly using his domain power to charm animals and plants, though that rarely works out. Today at least he did convince some centipedes to leave us alone. He also used his feat to get an owl familiar that we make extensive use of.

    Oh, I forgot to mention that we encountered flumphs! They didn't say anything, though. Just hovered around changing colors. They turned pink for me, which I was told meant they found me amusing.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 11
    BTW, we have a centaur in our party and she is a bit overpowered. The DM has told us he's been making harder combat encounters to compensate, and we always have to concoct some way to get her down a shaft or up a cliff. It's actually kind of fun, believe it or not. I imagine some people would find having to accomodate a character like that annoying, but she almost feels like a group mascot to me.

    Thanks to her we also devised a 150 foot long rope by fraying the ends of three 50 foot ropes and using the mending spell to combine the segments into one.

    I'm a sorcerer, so I don't mind that she's so powerful physically, but it seems like comparatively our blood hunter contributes more in social encounters than in combat (he roleplays a lot and has his own gravelly voice).

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  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    .
    Lind wrote: »
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

    Forge is kind of a dungeon written by an asshole; litterally every encounter has some tactics McGee rules abusing horseshit going on that is going to lead to the players basically murdering everything and everyone in sight because their is a good chance that it is their for the express purpose of murdering you.

    If this sounds like a good time then go for it, though I offer fair warning that the dragon fight is bafflingly unfair.

    I'm using Genesys so I'm mostly grabbing it for the plot and design, I'll just adapt the battles over to Genesys in a way that feels good. I'm going to play it that some of the folks in the dungeon are down with making a deal/partnership.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Well.

    There's a LOT of "Iconics".

    But there is only one
    Iconic%21.gif

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  • LindLind Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    .
    Lind wrote: »
    I'm tempted to buy The Forge of Fury on Roll20.net just to see how a premaid advanture looks (also my group is kinda in the level range). Anyone got any comments on it or another advanture for a group at level 3-4?

    Forge is kind of a dungeon written by an asshole; litterally every encounter has some tactics McGee rules abusing horseshit going on that is going to lead to the players basically murdering everything and everyone in sight because their is a good chance that it is their for the express purpose of murdering you.

    If this sounds like a good time then go for it, though I offer fair warning that the dragon fight is bafflingly unfair.

    I've only had time to read up on everything on the first floor so far but yeah its combat all over the place. No problem, thats kinda what my group is all about. Bit of backstory than some hack n slash. Now something we havn't used all that much is short and long rest but looking at this dungeon the party will be forced to take rests for sure.

  • SolanalesSolanales CMYKMatter Registered User regular
    That's kind of the nice thing about Forge. You can use it to introduce a party to the idea of having to take a break from time to time when you go into these larger environments. It's also nice for making them understand that taking a break in a dungeon can sometimes have consequences if you don't plan well. Don't be afraid to toss them some small encounters (maybe even non-combat) if they dilly-dally too long without someone properly on watch.


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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Well.

    There's a LOT of "Iconics".

    But the Pathfinder Iconics are more like, "Here's a prototypical Magus," who is basically an adventurer-tier kind of person, rather than the list of high-level people you find in most campaign settings. Bit apples and oranges.

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  • Mongrel IdiotMongrel Idiot Registered User regular
    You could make a pretty cool dude by going with a Kensei-specialized Monk, picking light crossbows as a Kensai weapon, and taking Crossbow Master.

    Attack dudes at range for d8+d4+Dex, or, if you have a dude next to you, use your unarmed attack to get +2 AC. Crossbow Master is a little sub-ideal here: ignoring loading only gets you one extra shot per round as a monk, and martial arts makes the bonus action shot with a hand crossbow kinda pointless, since you can already use a bonus action to get an unarmed attack after firing your crossbow. Being able to shoot out of melee without disadvantage is cool, though.

    I imagine the character coming from a monastery of mercenary monks who sell out their expert crossbow volleys to the highest bidder, surprising enemy forces by being difficult to defeat either at range or in melee, despite their light armor. In my head, they all look like old-timey bare-knuckle boxers, with immaculate handlebar mustaches.

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    You could make a pretty cool dude by going with a Kensei-specialized Monk, picking light crossbows as a Kensai weapon, and taking Crossbow Master.

    Attack dudes at range for d8+d4+Dex, or, if you have a dude next to you, use your unarmed attack to get +2 AC. Crossbow Master is a little sub-ideal here: ignoring loading only gets you one extra shot per round as a monk, and martial arts makes the bonus action shot with a hand crossbow kinda pointless, since you can already use a bonus action to get an unarmed attack after firing your crossbow. Being able to shoot out of melee without disadvantage is cool, though.

    I imagine the character coming from a monastery of mercenary monks who sell out their expert crossbow volleys to the highest bidder, surprising enemy forces by being difficult to defeat either at range or in melee, despite their light armor. In my head, they all look like old-timey bare-knuckle boxers, with immaculate handlebar mustaches.

    I don't know if you can use crossbows as your ranged Kensai option due to the language of the sub-class feature:

    "Each of these weapons can be any simple or martial weapon that lacks the heavy and special properties."

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  • Mongrel IdiotMongrel Idiot Registered User regular
    Zonugal wrote: »
    You could make a pretty cool dude by going with a Kensei-specialized Monk, picking light crossbows as a Kensai weapon, and taking Crossbow Master.

    Attack dudes at range for d8+d4+Dex, or, if you have a dude next to you, use your unarmed attack to get +2 AC. Crossbow Master is a little sub-ideal here: ignoring loading only gets you one extra shot per round as a monk, and martial arts makes the bonus action shot with a hand crossbow kinda pointless, since you can already use a bonus action to get an unarmed attack after firing your crossbow. Being able to shoot out of melee without disadvantage is cool, though.

    I imagine the character coming from a monastery of mercenary monks who sell out their expert crossbow volleys to the highest bidder, surprising enemy forces by being difficult to defeat either at range or in melee, despite their light armor. In my head, they all look like old-timey bare-knuckle boxers, with immaculate handlebar mustaches.

    I don't know if you can use crossbows as your ranged Kensai option due to the language of the sub-class feature:

    "Each of these weapons can be any simple or martial weapon that lacks the heavy and special properties."
    That locks out heavy crossbows, but not light crossbows. Light crossbows are simple and don't have either property, fortunately.

    0sgEp4R.jpg?1
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited March 12
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited March 12
    I really liked all the forced movement and zone powers in 4E, and after seeing the rules for designing new spells in the DMG I'm wondering if my DM would allow me to develop a spell that replicates those I liked from 4E. He's allowed one player to have a centaur character, and another had a homebrew race character (until he died), so maybe he'd allow me a signature spell.

    My character is a divine soul sorcerer who got his powers from a couatl, so I figured I would make it couatl-related. My first idea was a concentration spell that creates a glowing couatl-shaped bolt that hovers in place five feet above the ground until an enemy enters a space within five feet of it, at which point the bolt turns into a coil that restrains the triggering creature (holding flying creatures aloft). The restrained target would take radiant damage each turn until it escapes.

    Any other ideas for a 4E-esque, couatl-flavored spell?

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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Smrtnik
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    No because I took ranks in the Juggling skill so I'm good.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    No wait shit that Juggalo'ing fuck now I can't use anything magnetic?!

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  • RendRend Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    No wait shit that Juggalo'ing fuck now I can't use anything magnetic?!

    But luckily you somehow have access to every printed cleric spell, of all levels

    Tox
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Not with the Crossbow Expert feat you don't!

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Not with the Crossbow Expert feat you don't!

    My dm told me "i don't care about your feat, no shield!".

    steam_sig.png
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited March 12
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Not with the Crossbow Expert feat you don't!

    My dm told me "i don't care about your feat, no shield!".

    You can easily get a buckler that straps to your arm such that you can use your hand while holding the shield
    If I were truly terrified of the balance ramifications, I might say that any round in which you use your hand to reload the shield you cannot utilize the armor bonus for said shield, but I would have serious doubts about the usability of a shield which did not let you manipulate things with your hand without dropping the shield first

    [EDIT] Obviously the fact that there's a shield attached to your arm will make it difficult to perform most manipulations you might do with your hands, but with a strapped buckler, you should be able to pull a crossbow string back

    Rend on
  • Mongrel IdiotMongrel Idiot Registered User regular
    It's all moot because, in this scenario, you're a monk and not using a shield.

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  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    I mean the Feat literally turns it into an automatic crossbow.

    Your DM was a goose.

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  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Yeah at least when I ignore mechanics I tell my players so they don't waste feats on them.

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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 13
    Arthil wrote: »
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Not with the Crossbow Expert feat you don't!

    No, that removes the restriction of one shot per action (loading property). Nothing removes the ammunition property.
    Drawing the ammunition from a Quiver, case, or other container is part of the Attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)

    A duck! on
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  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    A duck! wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    Light Crossbows aren't heavy :D You could also effectively use a Hand Crossbow and still wield a melee weapon in your other hand too. Unarmed Strikes do not need to be -punches- after all.

    Light crossbows still need a free hand to reload, so no shields or weapons if you want to keep shooting.

    Not with the Crossbow Expert feat you don't!

    Just makes you load it super fast, not telekinetically perform the processes.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Sunday was a bit of a shorter session with my players doing something different in preparation for a masquerade that they had planned to attend as part of their investigation into this one noble family, and thus I elected to do something different for my players; the Priestess of Sune led that they'd been buddied up to took them to a local temple where they were asked if they'd prefer a male or female attendant, before being led into... a spa!

    The way it worked out, I broke it down into two parts for them, the first part comprising a combination of bath, sauna and massage to loosen up their muscles and work away the physical aspects of the stress they'd been dealing with while the second part was the equivelant of a beauty salon treatment. The exact effectiveness of their time would be determined by the roll of a pair of 20 sided dice.

    For the most part, the first half went well for my players; nobody rolled less then a 13 so everyone came away from it feeling much better then they had and players who rolled really well would get to have bonuses involving physicallity at the ball (eg: stealth, pick pocketing, dancing etc). More interesting was what happened during the second half when their attendent went to work on aesthetics so they would be all pretty where one of my players (a moon elf eldritch knight) rolled a Nat 20 so the conclusion was that his attendent had an amazing understanding of elven bone structure, the fiber count of their hair, the RGB code of their skin tone and such so he was able to emphasize all of the best traits of his features while subtley down playing the weaker ones and as such he would recieve the equivelent of a social "taunt" twice at the ball allowing to draw attention to himself and away from other people (I was imagining him as the most anime elf imaginable).

    The other result that was interesting though went in the opposite direction, with my one player (an Uthgardt human artic druid who worshipped auril) rolling a 2; as such I described it as the attendent having given him an incredibly shitty shave with an absurd amount of tiny pieces of toilet paper torn up and stuck to his face to staunch the bleeding (she suggested that he maybe could tell people that it's like, ritual scarification or something). Still though, this would draw the attention of others as a sort of perpetual social taunt, as no one would be able to stop staring at him.

    Amusingly, I was reminded of an old MADtv sketch and pointed out that his shave (while incredibly shitty) was thankfully not this bad:

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    Kadoken
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