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[Punisher] Marvel Murder Machine (Spoilers)

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Posts

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Wtf was that? Episode 3 or 4, I forget exactly where I am
    Frank is stuck in the police station, surrounded and thoroughly outnumbered. He asks for fucking "black tape," then just kills every putz in the woods with his invisible tape hand. How did he even get outside and to the treeline? Who is writing this garbage? Don't set up problems that you can't solve. Black fucking tape...

    Oh, and the Jigsaw reveal was a major disappointment. I can't for the life of me figure out how that look equals face ground off by a mirror. He looks like he got beat up with some fishing tackle.

    DiannaoChongyossarian_livesAsthariel
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited January 21
    Wtf was that? Episode 3 or 4, I forget exactly where I am
    Frank is stuck in the police station, surrounded and thoroughly outnumbered. He asks for fucking "black tape," then just kills every putz in the woods with his invisible tape hand. How did he even get outside and to the treeline? Who is writing this garbage? Don't set up problems that you can't solve. Black fucking tape...

    Oh, and the Jigsaw reveal was a major disappointment. I can't for the life of me figure out how that look equals face ground off by a mirror. He looks like he got beat up with some fishing tackle.
    Two notes on that.
    1) it wasn't entirely creative but they were going for "white is easier to see in the pitch black if any light gets on it" thing. White wrist cast, cover with black tape, problem solved. Meh, they could've written better.

    2) Him getting outside, as in ability, was never the problem. The point was that he wasn't trying to make an enemy of the sheriff. He wanted to be in good standing and had to earn it. This I like the idea, though subsequent watching will probably erode how well I think it was executed on as a concept.

    Henroid on
    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    SatanIsMyMotor
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    The psychologist is probably the most insulting portrayal of a mental health provider that I've seen in a long time holy shit

    DracomicronLoserForHireX
  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    edited January 21
    Let's take it as a given that Hollywood does not much like the mental health profession and rarely misses an opportunity to make them look horrible. Given that, she was by far the weakest part of the series. Every time she appeared the story ground to a halt; I soon found myself fast-forwarding through all of her scenes.

    Fairchild on
    Dracomicron
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    Let's take it as a given that Hollywood does not much like the mental health profession and rarely misses an opportunity to make them look horrible. Given that, she was by far the weakest part of the series. Every time she appeared the story ground to a halt; I soon found myself fast-forwarding through all of her scenes.
    Let's not take it as a given and provide some citation and arguments to support that.

    The one thing that is close enough related is that writing for film and television tends to not verify things nor get input from fields the writers are unfamiliar with. Psychology can easily fall into the same "uh, wtf are you talking about" reaction that techno-babble tends to. Rather than seek out any consultation they forge ahead, and sometimes when they do get that consultation they will ignore parts of it for the sake of drama.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    Not only was the psychologist an insulting portrayal of therapists, but she was also an insulting portrayal of a woman, and totally unnecessary to the story I think. I think that you could cut her almost entirely, and you would lose almost nothing. She doesn't even really add to Billy's story that much that having more scenes with Frank or his own gang couldn't. Easily soured the season for me. I actually think that in general they dropped the ball with their female characters. Which sucks because I think that the actresses were good, just weren't given great material to play with.

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Wtf was that? Episode 3 or 4, I forget exactly where I am
    Frank is stuck in the police station, surrounded and thoroughly outnumbered. He asks for fucking "black tape," then just kills every putz in the woods with his invisible tape hand. How did he even get outside and to the treeline? Who is writing this garbage? Don't set up problems that you can't solve. Black fucking tape...

    Oh, and the Jigsaw reveal was a major disappointment. I can't for the life of me figure out how that look equals face ground off by a mirror. He looks like he got beat up with some fishing tackle.
    Two notes on that.
    1) it wasn't entirely creative but they were going for "white is easier to see in the pitch black if any light gets on it" thing. White wrist cast, cover with black tape, problem solved. Meh, they could've written better.

    2) Him getting outside, as in ability, was never the problem. The point was that he wasn't trying to make an enemy of the sheriff. He wanted to be in good standing and had to earn it. This I like the idea, though subsequent watching will probably erode how well I think it was executed on as a concept.

    I understood the intent. I just don't like it. Frank in this season so far, is not The Punisher. He is Kratos, God of War. I really, really enjoy it in the moment, because the action is intense and Bernthal brings it, but as a script, that episode was a real waste of a setup.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Dumont, the therapist, was pretty cringe-worthy and insulting, but Madani took the title of The Worst when she
    fucking shot Mahoney TWICE
    and the show just kinda glossed over it. It sucks because the actress is distractingly attractive and I keep wanting to give her a pass for lizard-brain reasons, a pass that she has not earned.

    I am also annoyed that we never found out how old
    Amy
    actually is.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
    Atlas in Chains
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    I didn't mind Madani that much in season 1, only in the sense that they needed a character to represent the federal end of "we have to stop Frank Castle." But in season 2, yikes, she was portrayed as weaker by a huge mile. Not to mention there was barely any emphasis on her being in the DHS. She may as well have been just a regular street cop.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Dyvim Tvar
  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    I’m trying to watch this new season but it’s just falling flat. Season one was good and engaging. You’d think Netflix could afford to hire better show runners.

    "I see everything twice!"


  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    The disconnect between the two main plots is so weird.
    Did Madani not bother to investigate the small army of mercenaries Frank killed? Why was she so uninterested in why people were trying to kill Frank and Amy?

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    The disconnect between the two main plots is so weird.
    Did Madani not bother to investigate the small army of mercenaries Frank killed? Why was she so uninterested in why people were trying to kill Frank and Amy?

    Well
    She's Homeland Security; it isn't an external threat. She probably passed the issue off to the FBI or something, but since she also flew away with the primary witnesses, there wasn't any connection between Frank & Amy and Michigan.
    The real answer is that she's terrible at her job.

    Thinking about the ending a bit.
    Did Frank ever get his ring back from Pilgrim? It occurs to me that he had it last I noticed. Also I am kinda pissed that there was no capstone scene with Beth. Way to love 'em and leave 'em, Frank. The lady got shot for your bullshit crusade and you didn't even thank her afterwards. I assume he did as he said and called her kid, but it wasn't shown, which made Frank seem like a real asshole there.

    Gary Gygax wrote:
    ''The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.''
  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    I was very surprised by the lack of follow-up to the Beth storyline, too, all that I can think is that the writers planned to work this into Season 3.

    Fairchild on
    McFodder
  • SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    edited January 22
    The disconnect between the two main plots is so weird.
    Thinking about the ending a bit.
    Did Frank ever get his ring back from Pilgrim? It occurs to me that he had it last I noticed. Also I am kinda pissed that there was no capstone scene with Beth. Way to love 'em and leave 'em, Frank. The lady got shot for your bullshit crusade and you didn't even thank her afterwards. I assume he did as he said and called her kid, but it wasn't shown, which made Frank seem like a real asshole there.

    Re: Beth
    Well, he'd promised he wouldn't bring his past bullshit to her doorstep, and ended up doing so anyway. I read it as him deciding she's better off without him, especially how much he seems to embrace who he is at the end.

    Syngyne on
    5gsowHm.png
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    This entire season was like an extra long Buttons and Mindy sketch. Every time Frank rescues one side character, another is wandering into danger.

    TexiKen
  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited January 23
    Season 2
    This season kinda dragged along. It was pretty good at first. I liked Frank vs the Mercenaries and the shootout at the police station.

    But then Billy came back and was a really boring villain.

    I'm not even sure why they gave him amnesia. It's not like it changed anything. It just made the season take longer, where first he had to remember that he wanted revenge before he could just go straight back to being a villain with a grudge against Frank.

    Also his plan to break Frank was kinda badly written. I mean he ambushed Frank pretty good and had him right where he wanted him. Then instead of just killing him, he took half his men and left because I guess he "knew" that Frank would recover, kill the rest of his guys, and then fire blindly into a room where he'd prepped some dead civilians for Frank to think he'd killed. That's some precog-shit right there.

    Also everything involving Medani and the therapist was pretty boring - and those scenes comprised a not-small portion of almost every episode.

    Evil-preacher and the mercenaries chasing the girl seemed like a more interesting story, but the whole thing just kinda got sidelined so Frank could deal with Billy. Again.

    RT800 on
    Atlas in Chainsdispatch.o
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Dumont, the therapist, was pretty cringe-worthy and insulting, but Madani took the title of The Worst when she
    fucking shot Mahoney TWICE
    and the show just kinda glossed over it.
    This almost got me to stop watching.

    I've given it two more episodes and these plots are really not earning that level of goodwill.

  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    The very final scene of the last episode of season 2 is where season 1 episode 1 should have started.

    Making the "origin story" take up two full seasons is ridiculous.

    All of the excusing and shimmying and resistance to being what he is and doing what he does is contrary to the character.

    The very first scene of the entire show standalone after Daredevil should have been, "Oh... Jesus fuck, I don't know if this is a good guy."

    Ideally The Punisher is like the old TV show Kung Fu. Except instead of travelling town to town solving mysteries and enlightening the local populace using mystical bullshit. Guns*.

    *Lots of guns.

    dispatch.o on
    NSDFRandThat_GuyTexiKen
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    If you're talking about the very last shot of season 2 before the credits roll,
    That was so badly framed and done. I understand that it's like, that's how a comic book panel would get drawn and framed, but this is television. Some things transition well and somethings though, and that head on look wasn't great. Especially with how bland and empty the background was.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Jigsaw's plan
    The part that galled me was Bill killing the women. It was contrived to let Frank off the hook. The way Frank fires blindly through walls, it is just a matter of time before he hits a bystander. The show jumps through hoops to make sure he stays "innocent".

    Dyvim Tvar
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Jigsaw's plan
    The part that galled me was Bill killing the women. It was contrived to let Frank off the hook. The way Frank fires blindly through walls, it is just a matter of time before he hits a bystander. The show jumps through hoops to make sure he stays "innocent".
    So much fucking substance lost in that moment.

    The more I'm thinking about season 2 in the days since watching it the more I'm getting critical of it.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Atlas in Chains
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    They also stole that scene from a Punisher MAX comic where it made more sense.
    Frank thinks he killed a child after firing wildly at a shape through a window. He is broken. He admits what he did to the townsfolk.

    The next scene with him is with a gun in his mouth screaming trying to pull the trigger.

    He decides to check the body one last time. The caliber of the bullets used is wrong from the one he used that day.

    Jigsaw was trying to make him kill himself using a bunch of expendable henchmen Jigsaw didn’t care about and a dead child. Jigsaw and Frank has been around for years at this point and Frank has a reputation for basically being unkillable. It makes sense why Jigsaw would try this route.

    Now imo that comic arc sucks and that’s the only good part of it

    To this series credit, Jigsaw and Micro have never been good. Season 1 at least did them very well.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    They also stole that scene from a Punisher MAX comic where it made more sense.
    Frank thinks he killed a child after firing wildly at a shape through a window. He is broken. He admits what he did to the townsfolk.

    The next scene with him is with a gun in his mouth screaming trying to pull the trigger.

    He decides to check the body one last time. The caliber of the bullets used is wrong from the one he used that day.

    Jigsaw was trying to make him kill himself using a bunch of expendable henchmen Jigsaw didn’t care about and a dead child. Jigsaw and Frank has been around for years at this point and Frank has a reputation for basically being unkillable. It makes sense why Jigsaw would try this route.

    Now imo that comic arc sucks and that’s the only good part of it

    To this series credit, Jigsaw and Micro have never been good. Season 1 at least did them very well.
    It kinda sounds like the comic version isn't that good either because it again pulls the punch.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Remember when Pun Pun fired a shotgun through a crowded hospital trying to hit the guy Karen was protecting, but it was OK because his aim is so good? (Except his aim wasn't that great, since he missed the guy he was aiming at, so...)

    Oh brilliant
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Remember when Pun Pun fired a shotgun through a crowded hospital trying to hit the guy Karen was protecting, but it was OK because his aim is so good? (Except his aim wasn't that great, since he missed the guy he was aiming at, so...)
    Missed opportunities: "Did somebody call for a shotgun SURGEON?"

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    Henroid wrote: »
    Kadoken wrote: »
    They also stole that scene from a Punisher MAX comic where it made more sense.
    Frank thinks he killed a child after firing wildly at a shape through a window. He is broken. He admits what he did to the townsfolk.

    The next scene with him is with a gun in his mouth screaming trying to pull the trigger.

    He decides to check the body one last time. The caliber of the bullets used is wrong from the one he used that day.

    Jigsaw was trying to make him kill himself using a bunch of expendable henchmen Jigsaw didn’t care about and a dead child. Jigsaw and Frank has been around for years at this point and Frank has a reputation for basically being unkillable. It makes sense why Jigsaw would try this route.

    Now imo that comic arc sucks and that’s the only good part of it

    To this series credit, Jigsaw and Micro have never been good. Season 1 at least did them very well.
    It kinda sounds like the comic version isn't that good either because it again pulls the punch.

    Frank in MAX tried to kill himself when he found he thought he hurt an innocent. He’s a psycho because he wants his forever war. He doesn’t want his vision from Ennis’s 616 run where he doesn’t stop pulling the trigger on everyone in the world. It’s not a pulled punch because a follow through is against his character and the extremely thin line he walks from “barely an anti-hero” goes to “Johnny the Homicidal Maniac but guns”

    Like the “punch is pulled” because there would be no more MAX at that point. He would have eaten that bullet.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    His reaction doesn't have to be
    immediately putting the gun in his mouth. He can react in other ways, and maybe start on a redemption arc, change how he does things or abandon it, etc etc etc. There's a lot to explore and it doesn't have to "and then he blew his own brains out THE END."

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited January 24
    Henroid wrote: »
    His reaction doesn't have to be
    immediately putting the gun in his mouth. He can react in other ways, and maybe start on a redemption arc, change how he does things or abandon it, etc etc etc. There's a lot to explore and it doesn't have to "and then he blew his own brains out THE END."

    Then he’s not Frank Castle. This is no longer the Punisher.

    It’s like wanting Rorshach to go with the plan at the end of Watchmen. Maybe he CAN compromise in the face of armageddon.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    God the last 30 seconds of this series was the most irreverent bullshit. They assemble a warehouse of racist stereotypes to get gunned down. Fade to black than "In loving memory of Stan Lee." That was the least loving tribute I could have imagined. What a fuck you to top off a terrible season of TV. It should have been Punisher that got canceled. DD was too good for this shit.

    camo_sig.png
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    God the last 30 seconds of this series was the most irreverent bullshit. They assemble a warehouse of racist stereotypes to get gunned down. Fade to black than "In loving memory of Stan Lee." That was the least loving tribute I could have imagined. What a fuck you to top off a terrible season of TV. It should have been Punisher that got canceled. DD was too good for this shit.

    It probably is getting canceled.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Mine TTRPG blog http://darkheresychainsofmalice.blogspot.com/
    McFodder
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    God the last 30 seconds of this series was the most irreverent bullshit. They assemble a warehouse of racist stereotypes to get gunned down. Fade to black than "In loving memory of Stan Lee." That was the least loving tribute I could have imagined. What a fuck you to top off a terrible season of TV. It should have been Punisher that got canceled. DD was too good for this shit.

    It probably is getting canceled.

    Good. Bernthal plays Frank well but the writing is TERRIBLE. I hope he surfaces again on Disney's streaming service with better writers.

    camo_sig.png
    dispatch.oBethrynCimmerii
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Out of all of the ancillary Marvel shows/characters I really think Bernthal's Punisher is the only one with the proper screen presence to be able to make it in the film universe. I would love to see him crossover in some way to an Avengers film or his own film proper. The guy has a hell of a lot of charisma.



    Unrelated, I would also like to see Bernthal and Tom Hardy in a movie together. The have a similar sort charisma and I think they'd work well together.

    steam_sig.png
    That_GuyKadoken
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    I was thinking last night... for all the people who say the Punisher isn't "The Punisher" in these shows, I've gotta ask, what would make him that? If it's "murder a lot more," how does that work as a television show, especially where he's the central character?

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I was thinking last night... for all the people who say the Punisher isn't "The Punisher" in these shows, I've gotta ask, what would make him that? If it's "murder a lot more," how does that work as a television show, especially where he's the central character?

    I made a more lengthy post on it last page but the TL:DR is that The Punisher is an active protagonist. Netflix Punisher is a passive protagonist.

    camo_sig.png
    NSDFRanddispatch.o
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    I like MCU Punisher, but he worked a lot better as the sympathetic secondary antagonist, IMO. So I guess my argument is that he shouldn't really have a show at all, but rather pop up as a terrifying temporary ally or awkward problem for the heroes to confront.

    Oh brilliant
    McFodder
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I was thinking last night... for all the people who say the Punisher isn't "The Punisher" in these shows, I've gotta ask, what would make him that? If it's "murder a lot more," how does that work as a television show, especially where he's the central character?

    I made a more lengthy post on it last page but the TL:DR is that The Punisher is an active protagonist. Netflix Punisher is a passive protagonist.
    I forgot about that post. I think part of the problem with why he appears passive is because he's trying to turn away from being The Punisher. A change in character as decided by the character.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I was thinking last night... for all the people who say the Punisher isn't "The Punisher" in these shows, I've gotta ask, what would make him that? If it's "murder a lot more," how does that work as a television show, especially where he's the central character?

    I made a more lengthy post on it last page but the TL:DR is that The Punisher is an active protagonist. Netflix Punisher is a passive protagonist.
    I forgot about that post. I think part of the problem with why he appears passive is because he's trying to turn away from being The Punisher. A change in character as decided by the character.

    It's more about plot structure. None of the major plot beats were investigated by Frank. He was a passive object, being drug along by the story. That's not who The Punisher is as a character. I really don't want to relive the entire series but I can give more than a few examples. It took a gang of armed psychopaths cornering her in a bathroom to kick Frank into helping Amy. Frank was only at the police station for the awesome shootout because he passively gave up and let the writers take him there. They put literal handcuffs on him to make sure he can't act until the last possible second. After a moment of trying to not die, he his just whisked away to NY to deal with last season's passivity. I could go on an on but the bottom line is that in the Netflix Punisher show, Frank was completly submissive to the plot. Events were thrust on him and he reacted. Not only does it make him not The Punisher, it makes this a terrible show written by talentless hacks. Writing a passive protagonist is the mark of an rank amature. The Punisher is so easy to write for. You invent some bad guys doing bad things and have Frank cross their paths. Frank does his Punisher bit, gets beaten and bloody, learns that he has some small shred of his humanity left before losing it and finishing the plot.

    If you are going to write this sort of character in this sort of setting, don't call him The Punisher. I probably wouldn't hate the show if they weren't trying to tell me this was Frank Castle. If it wasn't called The Punisher it would just be another perfectly forgettable dump to streaming and I wouldn't be so outraged.

    camo_sig.png
    NSDFRand
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, poyo and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited January 26
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    I was thinking last night... for all the people who say the Punisher isn't "The Punisher" in these shows, I've gotta ask, what would make him that? If it's "murder a lot more," how does that work as a television show, especially where he's the central character?

    I made a more lengthy post on it last page but the TL:DR is that The Punisher is an active protagonist. Netflix Punisher is a passive protagonist.
    I forgot about that post. I think part of the problem with why he appears passive is because he's trying to turn away from being The Punisher. A change in character as decided by the character.

    It's more about plot structure. None of the major plot beats were investigated by Frank. He was a passive object, being drug along by the story. That's not who The Punisher is as a character. I really don't want to relive the entire series but I can give more than a few examples. It took a gang of armed psychopaths cornering her in a bathroom to kick Frank into helping Amy. Frank was only at the police station for the awesome shootout because he passively gave up and let the writers take him there. They put literal handcuffs on him to make sure he can't act until the last possible second. After a moment of trying to not die, he his just whisked away to NY to deal with last season's passivity. I could go on an on but the bottom line is that in the Netflix Punisher show, Frank was completly submissive to the plot. Events were thrust on him and he reacted. Not only does it make him not The Punisher, it makes this a terrible show written by talentless hacks. Writing a passive protagonist is the mark of an rank amature. The Punisher is so easy to write for. You invent some bad guys doing bad things and have Frank cross their paths. Frank does his Punisher bit, gets beaten and bloody, learns that he has some small shred of his humanity left before losing it and finishing the plot.

    If you are going to write this sort of character in this sort of setting, don't call him The Punisher. I probably wouldn't hate the show if they weren't trying to tell me this was Frank Castle. If it wasn't called The Punisher it would just be another perfectly forgettable dump to streaming and I wouldn't be so outraged.

    Ennis's 616 run was more Frank focused in terms of time we spend with him in the comic, but in his MAX run and Rucka's 2011 run we spend a lot of time with villains and side characters to the point that Frank kind of becomes a boogieman that shows up to ruin their day. He's almost the active antagonist to these villain protagonists. Kitchen Irish, Irish want that money and Frank fucks them up because they messed up. Barracuda, yuppies want their disaster and because Frank was around at the right time he fucks them up. Slavers, Frank was hunting one of them already and we get to know the bosses and spend time with them then he fucks them up. AIM, shoots up a wedding in essentially a gang war and Frank deals with the fallout along with Rachel Cole-Alves. In each of these we spend a lot of time with the villains, and especially in Rucka's run the focus is pulled back from Frank more to the point there is no war journal and the narration is done by other characters.

    I think the Netflix shows, in general, were influenced by Rucka's run because thinking back to it the structure is similar but without the beautiful Chechetto art and good writing. They kind of want to do the MAX thing of increased focus on the villains but the writing is once again just not good enough.

    Honestly, they should have kept Jigsaw for a possible third season. What they should have done was adapt something like Mother Russia, Frank's time in Northern Ireland in the 616 run, the French nuke and mercenary island arc, the rescuing the Mob Boss from FARC or whoever, or Man of Stone. If they wanted something that could work better on TV, Frank already has stories where he does Jack Bauer traveling anti-hero shit. You want to avoid Frank exterminating wise-guys and gangbangers then send his ass to Russia. Have Nick Fury recruit him to save a little girl like in MAX. Turn him into basically Frank Castle: Agent of Shield. These stories exist. It's not always wrapping intestines around trees and feeding gangsters to sharks.

    Also, stop the Netflix bloat. These never needed to be more than like 8 episodes per season and that's stretching it. If a common arc in the comics is an average of five issues a show runner could adapt an equivalent in 6 or so.

    Kadoken on
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  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    For real. TV shows used to have 25+ episodes per season. Somehow they managed to make 13 feel like too many.

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  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    edited January 26
    As far as the characterization (I think Bernthal got it exactly right in his acting, even this season and the biggest thing that sticks out to me is in the bar fight early in the season) I think any writers for a Punisher show should really spend some time around Marine grunts. Frank Castle is supposed to be an infantry officer who went through indoc for Recon and ended up a platoon leader in a Force Recon Company. He's going to be aggressive.

    NSDFRand on
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