I didn’t like the ending. I felt like it didn’t resolve an arc for Frank. He ended up basically at the same place he ended and it felt both unearned and incorrect.
He doesn’t do the right thing at the end. He doesn’t do the right wrong thing at the end.
That is, when the Anti-Hero’s work is done, he or she needs to either turn themselves in or become a villain. Frank should have refused the offer and plead guilty. Or Frank should have disappeared with the FBI close behind.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
I didn’t like the ending. I felt like it didn’t resolve an arc for Frank. He ended up basically at the same place he ended and it felt both unearned and incorrect.
He doesn’t do the right thing at the end. He doesn’t do the right wrong thing at the end.
That is, when the Anti-Hero’s work is done, he or she needs to either turn themselves in or become a villain. Frank should have refused the offer and plead guilty. Or Frank should have disappeared with the FBI close behind.
That last option would sort of make sense in-universe but not from a meta standpoint. Taking Frank outside of New York or the US would screw too much with subsequent seasons and cameo opportunities.
As to the earlier portions of your post... I don't think The Punisher really works that way. I'm not super familiar with the comics, but the impression I get is that Frank is, by his nature, no more capable of laying down arms and ignoring the next batch of criminals to come along than he is of joining them and slaughtering innocents. His immutable ethos and commitment are the things that make him The Punisher.
russo should've put those 50 cal rounds through the engine blocks of the homeland vehicles instead of the tires like the gun was meant to do
I imagine the choice was made to blow the tires because it's more visually revealing for someone who wouldn't know that you can deadline a vehicle with a .50 bmg through the engine.
edit: I imagine it would also run into that Reality is Unrealistic Trope and much of the audience could think it's something that was made up for the scene.
I didn’t like the ending. I felt like it didn’t resolve an arc for Frank. He ended up basically at the same place he ended and it felt both unearned and incorrect.
He doesn’t do the right thing at the end. He doesn’t do the right wrong thing at the end.
That is, when the Anti-Hero’s work is done, he or she needs to either turn themselves in or become a villain. Frank should have refused the offer and plead guilty. Or Frank should have disappeared with the FBI close behind.
This definitely would have been a superior ending, I don't know why they wanted to take the eternal fire out of the character he had from Daredevil.
I didn’t like the ending. I felt like it didn’t resolve an arc for Frank. He ended up basically at the same place he ended and it felt both unearned and incorrect.
He doesn’t do the right thing at the end. He doesn’t do the right wrong thing at the end.
That is, when the Anti-Hero’s work is done, he or she needs to either turn themselves in or become a villain. Frank should have refused the offer and plead guilty. Or Frank should have disappeared with the FBI close behind.
That last option would sort of make sense in-universe but not from a meta standpoint. Taking Frank outside of New York or the US would screw too much with subsequent seasons and cameo opportunities.
As to the earlier portions of your post... I don't think The Punisher really works that way. I'm not super familiar with the comics, but the impression I get is that Frank is, by his nature, no more capable of laying down arms and ignoring the next batch of criminals to come along than he is of joining them and slaughtering innocents. His immutable ethos and commitment are the things that make him The Punisher.
No really, Luke Cage left New York City on his show, and came back. Punisher is someone who does leave the city occasionally, and unlike Iron Fist they can probably arrange it so he actually looks like he's elsewhere.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
Going to disagree here, Marvel and therefore the MCU is heavily based on our reality in contrast to DC's. Besides having aliens and mutants Inhumans and pseudo gods it really is like our Earth, why would gun control be any different? A big reason DD S1 worked was because how it was made felt like a very grounded realistic setting despite the main character being blind, magic ninja.
Marvel's Punisher has been the only live action version which has crashed head on with how screwed up the character is at multiple levels, it is lionizing his behavior.
We can have fantasy violence, and enjoy it while a tv show/movie acknowledges how fucked up the situation is, Frank isn't an alien who thinks outside human thought. This is what the MCU has done with the character from day one.
The last few years the discussion on gun control has become more pronounced on the mainstream level that a character like Punisher can't exist without someone clicking with it. That's why they had to delay the panel, the character was too linked with bad optics on that subject it became disrespectful to go ahead without becoming a PR nightmare for Marvel. If there was one character Marvel has which the gun control debate needs to be acknowledged in, it's Punisher.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Yes but the Netflix shows all have to be shot in the same 10 warehouses in Queens
Numerous shows are shot in Toronto, they still try to pretend their protagonists leave their cities. Arrow's flashbacks occur on an island in the Pacific!
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
This show is distinctly anti gun control and goes as far to make a profile in cowardice of it's only advocate. And honestly it doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with what Castle and crew we're up to in Kandahar except for the fact that it was a drug front and that they were targeting Innocents as well.
The whole assassination and disappearing of people doesn't seem too troubling to anyone writing the show.
I don't know what the views are of the people writing this show, but I do know that they do go out of their way not to confront the actions of Castle or the worldview of the people attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
The torture video is bad because it was a good guy and not because they were torturing him.
Guns are the sword which good people use to keep the dragons at bay, they don't feed into the problem at all they are the solution.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Yes but the Netflix shows all have to be shot in the same 10 warehouses in Queens
Please. It's one three story warehouse. They also have limited access to a few rooftops in Manhattan. At least their street shots are vaguely on-locationish (as long as they're not doing China).
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
This show is distinctly anti gun control and goes as far to make a profile in cowardice of it's only advocate. And honestly it doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with what Castle and crew we're up to in Kandahar except for the fact that it was a drug front and that they were targeting Innocents as well.
The whole assassination and disappearing of people doesn't seem too troubling to anyone writing the show.
I don't know what the views are of the people writing this show, but I do know that they do go out of their way not to confront the actions of Castle or the worldview of the people attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
The torture video is bad because it was a good guy and not because they were torturing him.
Guns are the sword which good people use to keep the dragons at bay, they don't feed into the problem at all they are the solution.
Huh, I thought the conversation was started because people saying the show didn't take enough of a stance on one side or another?
And I don't know that I agree about the rest of that. All of those scenes with the assassinations and torture and kidnappings seemed to do a very good job of being disturbing and got that point across to me and my GF very well. We specifically talked about those facts and cited it as what we enjoyed about the show. That stuff wasn't a big deal to Frank and the other guys in that group but that was part of the point about their characters. They were broken people. But as a watcher that was very clear and none of it seemed to be played for anything but that to me.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
This show is distinctly anti gun control and goes as far to make a profile in cowardice of it's only advocate. And honestly it doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with what Castle and crew we're up to in Kandahar except for the fact that it was a drug front and that they were targeting Innocents as well.
The whole assassination and disappearing of people doesn't seem too troubling to anyone writing the show.
I don't know what the views are of the people writing this show, but I do know that they do go out of their way not to confront the actions of Castle or the worldview of the people attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
The torture video is bad because it was a good guy and not because they were torturing him.
Guns are the sword which good people use to keep the dragons at bay, they don't feed into the problem at all they are the solution.
Huh, I thought the conversation was started because people saying the show didn't take enough of a stance on one side or another?
And I don't know that I agree about the rest of that. All of those scenes with the assassinations and torture and kidnappings seemed to do a very good job of being disturbing and got that point across to me and my GF very well. We specifically talked about those facts and cited it as what we enjoyed about the show. That stuff wasn't a big deal to Frank and the other guys in that group but that was part of the point about their characters. They were broken people. But as a watcher that was very clear and none of it seemed to be played for anything but that to me.
My original post was that it didn't make a point one way or the other. I went back and rewatched it and it absolutely takes a side it just does it with zero nuance, like someone transcribed a freshman year civics debate if both arguments were being given by the pro gun side.
RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
Come Overwatch with meeeee
I mean having superpowers and mutants as part of daily life isn't a minor difference that can be brushed off, it makes a pretty huge difference!
What I really don't want to do here is get bogged down in a guncontrol-esque debate about whats it's possible for one guy on his own with a gun to do. I think what we can all agree is that the combat prowess Frank Castle displays, i.e. being able to routinely go up against numerous heavily armed and well trained opponents and win with nothing but superficial damage, is not something that really exists in the real world.
It's plot armour. Frank Castle keep surviving insurvivable odds because it would be a bit of a shit (and short) show if he didn't.
Trying to mingle that with actual reality doesn't work because the real world doesn't care if you dying in a stupid way makes for a shit narrative.
Whatever else is going on in the MCU doesn't really matter, because Punisher barely exists in the MCU.
Mutants or aliens aren't part of daily life in the Netflix series The Punisher
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
This show is distinctly anti gun control and goes as far to make a profile in cowardice of it's only advocate. And honestly it doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with what Castle and crew we're up to in Kandahar except for the fact that it was a drug front and that they were targeting Innocents as well.
The whole assassination and disappearing of people doesn't seem too troubling to anyone writing the show.
I don't know what the views are of the people writing this show, but I do know that they do go out of their way not to confront the actions of Castle or the worldview of the people attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
The torture video is bad because it was a good guy and not because they were torturing him.
Guns are the sword which good people use to keep the dragons at bay, they don't feed into the problem at all they are the solution.
Not my impression, Karen Page was definitely pro-gun control and so was the senator, that they had nuance in their standings didn’t take away their pro-gun control arguments with that host.
Every person helping him is broken in one way or another and a big part of Micro’s arc is trying to get out - which even Frank suppptts because he knows he’s got a terrible life.
Every torture scene was shot to be visually uncomfortable rather then in the 24 lionising way.
I mean having superpowers and mutants as part of daily life isn't a minor difference that can be brushed off, it makes a pretty huge difference!
What I really don't want to do here is get bogged down in a guncontrol-esque debate about whats it's possible for one guy on his own with a gun to do. I think what we can all agree is that the combat prowess Frank Castle displays, i.e. being able to routinely go up against numerous heavily armed and well trained opponents and win with nothing but superficial damage, is not something that really exists in the real world.
It's plot armour. Frank Castle keep surviving insurvivable odds because it would be a bit of a shit (and short) show if he didn't.
Trying to mingle that with actual reality doesn't work because the real world doesn't care if you dying in a stupid way makes for a shit narrative.
Not on gun control it isn’t, that what things like the Accords are for.
Frank isn’t the only dangerous criminal with a gun in the MCU.
Yes, Punisher displays silly actions because he’s an action hero, in a world where super-heroes exist. This isn’t a defence that nothing we do in real life isn’t similar there with topical issues. What’s confusing is that your argument would mean shows like JJ, DD and Luke Cage can’t confront realistic subjects like police corruption, racism, police brutality, abuse, rape etc yet all the shows did that? What singles Punisher out? And you’re ignoring this is exactly what they did on his show as well as topics like mental health, what being a soldier does to a person, assimilating back to society after tours etc.
Edit: Having a few science fiction or fantasy elements in a setting isn’t something which turns civilisations there completely alien to us, especially in the MCU which occurs on an Earth very much like our own deliberately.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited December 2017
New pun-pun kill chan season announced.
I am going to assume this is when Frank goes all in on pun-pun. Hopefully Micro keeps his head.
Edit: if Frank goes all in, then probably all the helpful side characters die, most likely killed off by
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
Except in Daredevil when he used Karen to draw out the Blacksmith's assassins, putting her and the diner staff in danger. Then later, he used Karen again to draw out Colonel Clancy Brown and then rammed his car while Karen was in it.
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
Except in Daredevil when he used Karen to draw out the Blacksmith's assassins, putting her and the diner staff in danger. Then later, he used Karen again to draw out Colonel Clancy Brown and then rammed his car while Karen was in it.
In one of his earliest scenes he tried to snipe a target while Karen was driving him to safety sitting right next to him.
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
Except in Daredevil when he used Karen to draw out the Blacksmith's assassins, putting her and the diner staff in danger. Then later, he used Karen again to draw out Colonel Clancy Brown and then rammed his car while Karen was in it.
In one of his earliest scenes he tried to snipe a target while Karen was driving him to safety sitting right next to him.
He says he wants to protect Karen but he is awful at it...
man this show was fucking weak. What the hell happened to Netflix Marvel properties? Did Disney steal all the original teams? Did they go back in time and drain the mojo from frank's balls?
Either way, slow, cliche and very little punishing.
I'm wondering about the budget, is Marvel pulling the purse strings a little? Ike's still in charge of the tv division, right - that'd explain a lot.
could explain why half the show is set in one warehouse.
I think it's important to note that the characters views on gun control are formed based on their experiences in a fictional universe that isn't particularly like our own.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
I'm that case they should have been debating Chitauri gun control.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
The gun control bits were a mess. Karen's view on the subject was based on being kidnapped and threatened by Kingpin's minion, so... valid, but not exactly applicable to everyone. And then there was cowardly liberal opportunistic politician guy who was such a weak character that right-wing radio host was more interesting. The hotel attack episode was a good one, I liked seeing the same story from different angles, but the cowardly Senator bit could have been cut with no loss.
Agreed. They basically had two official advocates for the sides of the gun control thing. Shitty lying cowardly vet and shitty lying cowardly politician.
But since the show is about the Punisher the default stance is guns are awesome, so there was never a nonshitty face for gun control.
I think they did a good job of showing that Frank is pretty damn broken, due in no small part to guns. Plus most of the major shootouts were bloody messes with really horrible deaths, so while I wouldn't say it was pro-gun control in any sense, I didn't really get a strong guns are awesome vibe either.
It put forward the idea that guns are the necessary evil that the strong willed and brave use to protect the weak and cowardly. Karen is not a coward, she advocates for guns, Frank has a warrior code and does the same.
The politician is a caricature and basically how your average Rush listener would describe the true character of any gun control advocate.
The ex soldier uses bombs which makes him a coward too, never mind the boatload of people he shoots.
I thought it was pretty rich that he called him a coward for using bombs instead of getting up close when one of the opening scenes had him sniping someone from a mile away in literally a different country.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
Except in Daredevil when he used Karen to draw out the Blacksmith's assassins, putting her and the diner staff in danger. Then later, he used Karen again to draw out Colonel Clancy Brown and then rammed his car while Karen was in it.
In one of his earliest scenes he tried to snipe a target while Karen was driving him to safety sitting right next to him.
He says he wants to protect Karen but he is awful at it...
Hey, she's alive isn't she?
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
Rewatching the show, man they really could have edited like the first of half of this down a lot. I think the only netflix marvel show where the last half is better than the first half.
Finally finished this. I liked it, can't say that I loved it. It was carried by really great performances from everybody involved - I'll just go with character names to save myself some effort - Frank and Micro as the main characters were both fantastic and played off each other really well. All the bad guys were great in their roles, and the supporting cast was all pretty solid as well.
It was a titch... slow/dull/small but again the strength of the performances made up for it.
It did that thing that a lot of these shows seem to do where
the bad guy gets away a million times for no good reason, which gets irritating. Homeland Security hits a location and they never seem to bother covering the exits / surrounding the building? Blech. I'm fine with the bad guy getting away but I'd like it a lot better if it was due to the amazing skills of the bad guy as opposed to the incompetence of the good guys.
I've been bored of consequence-free violence for quite a long time, and while this show paints a lot more blood over it, I'd still really love it if a show could treat major bodily trauma with some degree of respect as to its lasting effects.
Bernthal does a great job at acting injured/hurt/close to death, but it loses its meaning after he repeatedly heals back to full in a night like a character sleeping at the inn in Final Fantasy.
Still, this show is encouraging because it puts things back on the upswing after the disappointing streak of Iron Fist-->Defenders (-->Inhumans). I'd still rank it lower than everything else though.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
I've been bored of consequence-free violence for quite a long time
Welcome to the world of Hollywood/Comic Book violence, where multiple bullet wounds to the shoulder have no long-term effects. Long-term meaning, "past the end of this episode".
In fairness, most Hollywood and Comic Book characters are made from a certain sort of firm jelly that recomposes itself after physical trauma
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
Also Frank don’t care
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited January 2018
Reading through the later oughts comics. The whole of the war journal based around the Civil War to the Skrull invasion is super mediocre garbage. It doesn’t help that it seems afraid to let Frank do his thing and would rather talk. Ennis could be a wordy son-of-a-gun, but he usually had something to say (especially if it was anti-Catholic or war) and had better characterization.
G. W. Bridge. I like G. W. Bridge as a character, but the whole timing and pacing of the comic is so scattershot that I got confused. Bridge is put on the Punisher. Okay now he’s not. Okay he got fired. Okay he’s still after Frank. He’s now with SHIELD. He apparently retired and Stark is asking him back. What? I must be missing a series that follows him more closely than his Punisher related exploits that explains what keeps happening in between these stories.
War Journal felt like my early RPG GMing efforts. I would try to just do cool things and not care about connecting them or making them make sense. My characters were just kind of there.
One thing from that War Journal run that would be neat, if they aren’t completely dead, would be a storyline in the Netflixverse of a total actually cool revamp of the Hand trying to kill Frank to resurrect him as the ultimate killing tool. Also I liked their treatment of the Rhino, but I feel an Ennis or Netflix version of the character would have just shot him.
One interesting thing from the best part of the series, the villain funeral, was the idea that villains don’t actually kill people and they view their villaint more as fun. Is that true in Marvel, at least for the people who fight Spiderman and the Fantastic Four (besides Doom of course)? That kind of makes me question why Frank tried (and failed as we find out) to kill them.
Pun-Pun 2009 uses supers and Marvel-faire stuff but it allows Frank to be Frank and actualy have situations and characters that are entertainingly written and make sense. I wouldn’t mind having a villain like the hood, who is still a greedy street crime at heart but has powers with a deal with Dormammu, to be the main villain of a season that wanted to integrate more with the MCU. Unless the MCU spiderman movies never try to draw upon Dark Reign.
Edit: 2009 run is great. Would love so see this visualized in the series somehow
Kadoken on
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Johnny ChopsockyScootaloo! We have to cook!Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2018
Just finished this. I think it's my favorite complete Marvel Netflix season right after Jessica Jones. It moved slow, and it didn't have as many delirious highs as say Daredevil 1-2, but it certainly didn't have the crushing inexplicable lows either. Also it managed to improve in the final 3rd of the season, which makes it the only Netflix Marvel show to do so.
And despite its obviously lower budget, is it just me or is this a handsomely-filmed show? I see Lightfoot brought some inspiration back from his time on Hannibal. It's almost like them spending less time fighting every episode let them be more creative with the camerawork.
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He doesn’t do the right thing at the end. He doesn’t do the right wrong thing at the end.
That is, when the Anti-Hero’s work is done, he or she needs to either turn themselves in or become a villain. Frank should have refused the offer and plead guilty. Or Frank should have disappeared with the FBI close behind.
The Punisher is just expressing the American action hero fantasy that one badass with a gun (or many guns) can overcome "The Man". It makes for great TV but it just isn't relevant to any real life situation where you're not protected by plot armour. That's why I'm glad the show didn't try too hard to make a point about gun control because frankly it has no relevant point to make.
TLDR; fantasy violence is fun and cool
That last option would sort of make sense in-universe but not from a meta standpoint. Taking Frank outside of New York or the US would screw too much with subsequent seasons and cameo opportunities.
As to the earlier portions of your post... I don't think The Punisher really works that way. I'm not super familiar with the comics, but the impression I get is that Frank is, by his nature, no more capable of laying down arms and ignoring the next batch of criminals to come along than he is of joining them and slaughtering innocents. His immutable ethos and commitment are the things that make him The Punisher.
I imagine the choice was made to blow the tires because it's more visually revealing for someone who wouldn't know that you can deadline a vehicle with a .50 bmg through the engine.
edit: I imagine it would also run into that Reality is Unrealistic Trope and much of the audience could think it's something that was made up for the scene.
This definitely would have been a superior ending, I don't know why they wanted to take the eternal fire out of the character he had from Daredevil.
No really, Luke Cage left New York City on his show, and came back. Punisher is someone who does leave the city occasionally, and unlike Iron Fist they can probably arrange it so he actually looks like he's elsewhere.
Going to disagree here, Marvel and therefore the MCU is heavily based on our reality in contrast to DC's. Besides having aliens and mutants Inhumans and pseudo gods it really is like our Earth, why would gun control be any different? A big reason DD S1 worked was because how it was made felt like a very grounded realistic setting despite the main character being blind, magic ninja.
Marvel's Punisher has been the only live action version which has crashed head on with how screwed up the character is at multiple levels, it is lionizing his behavior.
We can have fantasy violence, and enjoy it while a tv show/movie acknowledges how fucked up the situation is, Frank isn't an alien who thinks outside human thought. This is what the MCU has done with the character from day one.
The last few years the discussion on gun control has become more pronounced on the mainstream level that a character like Punisher can't exist without someone clicking with it. That's why they had to delay the panel, the character was too linked with bad optics on that subject it became disrespectful to go ahead without becoming a PR nightmare for Marvel. If there was one character Marvel has which the gun control debate needs to be acknowledged in, it's Punisher.
It's similar to when people try to have conversations about sending super criminals to jail and refer to our real world and how it would be wrong to murder criminals.
These people do not live in our world. The rules are different. Do not apply what you see in a fantasy world to our world.
Except Frank isn't someone who fights super criminals. And that was the storyline from Jessica Jones season 1 (with a bit if DD S1), which worked brilliantly.
The MCU is our world on steroids, if the Earth was invaded by aliens next week, and other aliens helped save the Earth we would still be dealing with issues like gun control. Though in that case it'd also extent to advanced technology, which is a thing in the MCU. One of the One Shots goes into it, and AoS go into it.
Numerous shows are shot in Toronto, they still try to pretend their protagonists leave their cities. Arrow's flashbacks occur on an island in the Pacific!
Well for the gun control stuff like I said on the other page I don't even see why it needs to be something the show takes a side on. I don't see how that improves the show in any possible way. I, and probably many others, am not thinking about gun control during the show. Taking any sort of hardline stance on that as a show seems a detriment. There are multiple characters all with their own views and that, imho, makes it a better show.
Frank wasn't just waxing philosophic though; he was goading Louis into getting closer to Frank could potentially turn the tables.
Frank definitely isn't against using a rifle at a long range, obviously, but 'look at someone before you kill them' is probably closer to his personal ethos, if he has one.
He has basically zero tolerance for collateral damage
This show is distinctly anti gun control and goes as far to make a profile in cowardice of it's only advocate. And honestly it doesn't seem to have too much of a problem with what Castle and crew we're up to in Kandahar except for the fact that it was a drug front and that they were targeting Innocents as well.
The whole assassination and disappearing of people doesn't seem too troubling to anyone writing the show.
I don't know what the views are of the people writing this show, but I do know that they do go out of their way not to confront the actions of Castle or the worldview of the people attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
The torture video is bad because it was a good guy and not because they were torturing him.
Guns are the sword which good people use to keep the dragons at bay, they don't feed into the problem at all they are the solution.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Please. It's one three story warehouse. They also have limited access to a few rooftops in Manhattan. At least their street shots are vaguely on-locationish (as long as they're not doing China).
Huh, I thought the conversation was started because people saying the show didn't take enough of a stance on one side or another?
And I don't know that I agree about the rest of that. All of those scenes with the assassinations and torture and kidnappings seemed to do a very good job of being disturbing and got that point across to me and my GF very well. We specifically talked about those facts and cited it as what we enjoyed about the show. That stuff wasn't a big deal to Frank and the other guys in that group but that was part of the point about their characters. They were broken people. But as a watcher that was very clear and none of it seemed to be played for anything but that to me.
My original post was that it didn't make a point one way or the other. I went back and rewatched it and it absolutely takes a side it just does it with zero nuance, like someone transcribed a freshman year civics debate if both arguments were being given by the pro gun side.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
What I really don't want to do here is get bogged down in a guncontrol-esque debate about whats it's possible for one guy on his own with a gun to do. I think what we can all agree is that the combat prowess Frank Castle displays, i.e. being able to routinely go up against numerous heavily armed and well trained opponents and win with nothing but superficial damage, is not something that really exists in the real world.
It's plot armour. Frank Castle keep surviving insurvivable odds because it would be a bit of a shit (and short) show if he didn't.
Trying to mingle that with actual reality doesn't work because the real world doesn't care if you dying in a stupid way makes for a shit narrative.
Mutants or aliens aren't part of daily life in the Netflix series The Punisher
I don’t know, I think I might like to watch that at some point.
Not my impression, Karen Page was definitely pro-gun control and so was the senator, that they had nuance in their standings didn’t take away their pro-gun control arguments with that host.
Every person helping him is broken in one way or another and a big part of Micro’s arc is trying to get out - which even Frank suppptts because he knows he’s got a terrible life.
Every torture scene was shot to be visually uncomfortable rather then in the 24 lionising way.
Yup. And even if they were I don’t think it’d mean gun control isn’t s thing in the MCU.
Not on gun control it isn’t, that what things like the Accords are for.
Frank isn’t the only dangerous criminal with a gun in the MCU.
Yes, Punisher displays silly actions because he’s an action hero, in a world where super-heroes exist. This isn’t a defence that nothing we do in real life isn’t similar there with topical issues. What’s confusing is that your argument would mean shows like JJ, DD and Luke Cage can’t confront realistic subjects like police corruption, racism, police brutality, abuse, rape etc yet all the shows did that? What singles Punisher out? And you’re ignoring this is exactly what they did on his show as well as topics like mental health, what being a soldier does to a person, assimilating back to society after tours etc.
Edit: Having a few science fiction or fantasy elements in a setting isn’t something which turns civilisations there completely alien to us, especially in the MCU which occurs on an Earth very much like our own deliberately.
I am going to assume this is when Frank goes all in on pun-pun. Hopefully Micro keeps his head.
Edit: if Frank goes all in, then probably all the helpful side characters die, most likely killed off by
Barracuda ples
Except in Daredevil when he used Karen to draw out the Blacksmith's assassins, putting her and the diner staff in danger. Then later, he used Karen again to draw out Colonel Clancy Brown and then rammed his car while Karen was in it.
In one of his earliest scenes he tried to snipe a target while Karen was driving him to safety sitting right next to him.
He says he wants to protect Karen but he is awful at it...
could explain why half the show is set in one warehouse.
I'm that case they should have been debating Chitauri gun control.
Hey, she's alive isn't she?
It was a titch... slow/dull/small but again the strength of the performances made up for it.
It did that thing that a lot of these shows seem to do where
I've been bored of consequence-free violence for quite a long time, and while this show paints a lot more blood over it, I'd still really love it if a show could treat major bodily trauma with some degree of respect as to its lasting effects.
Still, this show is encouraging because it puts things back on the upswing after the disappointing streak of Iron Fist-->Defenders (-->Inhumans). I'd still rank it lower than everything else though.
Welcome to the world of Hollywood/Comic Book violence, where multiple bullet wounds to the shoulder have no long-term effects. Long-term meaning, "past the end of this episode".
G. W. Bridge. I like G. W. Bridge as a character, but the whole timing and pacing of the comic is so scattershot that I got confused. Bridge is put on the Punisher. Okay now he’s not. Okay he got fired. Okay he’s still after Frank. He’s now with SHIELD. He apparently retired and Stark is asking him back. What? I must be missing a series that follows him more closely than his Punisher related exploits that explains what keeps happening in between these stories.
War Journal felt like my early RPG GMing efforts. I would try to just do cool things and not care about connecting them or making them make sense. My characters were just kind of there.
One thing from that War Journal run that would be neat, if they aren’t completely dead, would be a storyline in the Netflixverse of a total actually cool revamp of the Hand trying to kill Frank to resurrect him as the ultimate killing tool. Also I liked their treatment of the Rhino, but I feel an Ennis or Netflix version of the character would have just shot him.
One interesting thing from the best part of the series, the villain funeral, was the idea that villains don’t actually kill people and they view their villaint more as fun. Is that true in Marvel, at least for the people who fight Spiderman and the Fantastic Four (besides Doom of course)? That kind of makes me question why Frank tried (and failed as we find out) to kill them.
Pun-Pun 2009 uses supers and Marvel-faire stuff but it allows Frank to be Frank and actualy have situations and characters that are entertainingly written and make sense. I wouldn’t mind having a villain like the hood, who is still a greedy street crime at heart but has powers with a deal with Dormammu, to be the main villain of a season that wanted to integrate more with the MCU. Unless the MCU spiderman movies never try to draw upon Dark Reign.
Edit: 2009 run is great. Would love so see this visualized in the series somehow
And despite its obviously lower budget, is it just me or is this a handsomely-filmed show? I see Lightfoot brought some inspiration back from his time on Hannibal. It's almost like them spending less time fighting every episode let them be more creative with the camerawork.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Nice to see the vest on, but i am not crazy about the blue jeans.
*shrug*