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[Fighting Games] 2B

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 In Greece, misthios. Number one. Lethal hands. One day, malakas need attitude adjustment. I kill malakas. Registered User regular
    Ah right, I forgot about this thread's weird and unreasonable NRS hate... Also "Overhyping violence and kills" it's... it's Mortal Kombat, man. What the heck are you expecting?

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 7
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Ah right, I forgot about this thread's weird and unreasonable NRS hate... Also "Overhyping violence and kills" it's... it's Mortal Kombat, man. What the heck are you expecting?

    I don't know, that trailer makes it look like more of the same. Not that Capcom and Namco aren't guilty of the same thing. NRS just bothers me that they never spend a damn on making quality animation and end up with "key frame" fighter. Then a majority of the sales probably come from people wanting to see the over-the-top x-ray stuff and fatalities. Hard to take any of it seriously when Scorpion and Raiden should have died a dozen times each in that video.

    Edit: But to be fair, I'm an old-ass tired fighting gamer who doesn't play them much these days, so take my complaints with a grain of salt.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    The animation complaints about netherrealm never cease to drive me nuts. Their animations look fantastic and they're make the best looking fighting games around

    Why the hell do we have to take things seriously? And why do people who want to buy it for X-rays get looked down on? Why does every fighting game have to be like the ones you like? If you don't like what they're doing, don't act like they're not producing high quality content with a lot of effort and enthusiasm behind it. It's just not for you, it doesn't make it bad or the wrong way to make a fighting game

    I get that this is the fighting game thread so there's going to be the more hardcore end of the opinion spectrum here but frankly there's a reason why NRS makes such massively successful selling fighting games, they're fun as fuck, filled with content and gorgeous. Animation key frame nonsense or whatever, I just don't get it. The animations look gorgeous, fuck it.

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  • GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    edited December 7


    Like what you like but people can dislike what they dislike and for a games animations to look like that in 2018...I’ll happilly spend my money on anything else.

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    edited December 7
    Grove wrote: »
    Nah the animations are straight trash and lazy. It’s a pathetic effort at best.

    Like what you like but people can dislike what they dislike and for a games animations to look like that in 2018...I’ll happilly spend my money on anything else.

    I don't think they're lazy, I think they know exactly what they're doing. Look at how impactful their cutscenes are and how amazing their facial animations are. These are pros at the top of their game.

    I just wish I knew what they were going for. If a punch had too much follow through, did the art director say "No, that's not weightless and slappy enough?" How do they describe their ideal martial arts animations to end up with these results?

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Don't let the bells end Registered User regular
    i like how many punches look like you're trying to punch over something in the way

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    i like how many punches look like you're trying to punch over something in the way

    I think the Sugar Punch video called it "punching over a waist high fence". Which helped me make sense of what I was seeing, honestly.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Don't let the bells end Registered User regular
    the animators demonstrate enough skill in cutscenes and scripted scenes like supers that i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the majority of animation in-fight was heavily driven by gameplay designers and the animators are only allowed to touch it up in a limited manner

    wFIIe2N.jpg
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    I just can’t react to the animations in the way I want to. It feels like there’s no lead-in or follow-through to the attacks. They come out of nowhere for me because of the way I play fighting games. It’s somehow even more frustrating to me because of how amazing the cutscenes and facial work are.

    Like, you can do all that but you can’t make him bend his knees before he jumps?

    templewulf
  • P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    i think they are going for a recreation of the digitized sprites MK look, which was pretty janky. i also find it unattractive and have little interest in mk11 based on NRS' track record with the actual gameplay
    the animators demonstrate enough skill in cutscenes and scripted scenes like supers that i wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the majority of animation in-fight was heavily driven by gameplay designers and the animators are only allowed to touch it up in a limited manner
    i don't know what the mk frame data generally looks like but I would think fitting the animation to the frame data constraints isn't an mk specific problem animators face, so i don't think it works as an explanation.

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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    A reminder that MKX was an absolutely dogshit PC port. That alone is enough to put me off 11.

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  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    Haven't watched the trailer yet but I'll day 1 mortal Kombat 11. I'm actually really curious where they take the story. X left a lot of potential threads. Plus they now need to start delving into the lore from less popular entries in the series. Everyone was kinda hype for MK through 4 if I recall correctly and then it started to drop off.

    MK has always been my favorite fighting game from an actual gameplay persepctive so I am sure I'll enjoy this one.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    Grove wrote: »

    Like what you like but people can dislike what they dislike and for a games animations to look like that in 2018...I’ll happilly spend my money on anything else.

    They aren't stilted and terrible, they're "nostalgic". And also stilted and terrible.

    Viskod on
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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Skull2185 wrote: »


    Yes! Fucking YES!

    Oooh I hope it has Injustice 2's loot system.

    That doesn't look great at all. Still overhyping the violence and kills I see. Let's see if they finally spent some of the massive budget on animation. I'm sure they didn't and it'll still look and move like ground-up ass.

    MK isn't about being perfect or a tournament fighter. It's about something people seem to have forgotten, having fun and mashing buttons with your friends.

    Plus their story mode is streets ahead of any other fighting game

    RickRude on
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    I recall trying really hard years ago to get into fighters that never grabbed me like street fighter and soul caliber. If people enjoy those games that's fine but they...well let's just leave it at they weren't even remotely fun for me. In a way that I didnt even want to try to improve.

    If I wasn't so attached to MK then maybe it's be the case for it as well. I try to play a bunch of stuff "competitively" and really life just pushes it to the point where I cannot actually get beyond certain plateaus due to time constraints (assuming of course I'm capable of doing it anyway). MK has always been enjoyable enough that I'm willing to load it up and just smash the AI, which has never really been a thing for me in almost literally any other game across any other genre. I love watching the tournament scene as well. Injustice is pretty good, killer instinct as well, but MK is something I truly enjoy viewing.

    Prohass
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    What would be a good example of fighting game animations then? Because I literally do not get the complaints, I need some sort of comparison because it feels like I'm taking crazy pills here

    RickRude
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Don't let the bells end Registered User regular
    the other ones

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    Super helpful

    I guess I just don't see it. MK and Injustuce have better animations and more impactful feeling fighting than any other fighting game I've played. Eh I just guess I'm going to have to shrug my shoulders cos I don't see it.

    Prohass on
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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Conveying violence through motion is tough in a video game because the variable and systems required to enhance the visceral feel complicate gameplay.

    I also think that the muffled, more realistic sound design of newer fighting games isn't doing them any favors in terms of conveying impact, which people may cross-attribute to animation. Soul Calibur 6 semi-avoids this by having an excuse to visit the higher frequencies

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  • Mr_GrinchMr_Grinch Registered User regular
    I keep thinking that I'll "get good" at fighting games. I love the concept, I love the spectacle. I read through tutorials, and I bought a stick (ok, just a hori-mini)...and then I don't actually put the time in to practice in the slightest and I end up giving up on a game pretty quick.

    But MK, MK always brings me back in for the story mode and the over the top fun. I've accepted I'll never get "good" at fighting games, or really understand much of the underlying systems. But I know I'll have a hell of a fun time when I buy Mortal Kombat 11.

    I totally get why some people don't like them, but everything from MK9 onwards has been fantastic to me (And Mk1 through UMK3. I even loved Deadly Alliance).

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  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Pretty much getting good at fighting games involves getting your ass kicked for a really, really long time, and not tilting so you learn something from it.

    This would be why for the most part the number of people playing them is smaller than any other competitive game.

    Most people can't see that by losing a ton, you DO learn things even if you don't just start winning after a day or two.

    I wish I could ever really get into single player aspects of fighting games again. Cause once you do all that losing competitively and get pretty good, the computer bores you since it becomes SO obvious when it is going to eat anything you do, and when it is going to do something that will always work.

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  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    The spectacle of MK makes playing against the CPU semi-enjoyable for me. Naturally an actual human to compete against is going to be preferable on 100% of cases but it offers something in this scenario.

    I've tried to make time to get better at fighting games but there are only so many hours in the day. I really wanted to play more pokken for example but there's just too much going on right now. Probably going to entirely skip the new smash brothers as well since I doubt I'll ever have time to play it

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    What would be a good example of fighting game animations then? Because I literally do not get the complaints, I need some sort of comparison because it feels like I'm taking crazy pills here

    I got you man. These two videos convey what most of us are talking about here in regards to NRS having horrible fighting animation. The videos are a bit snarky and NSFW, but are very in-depth and explained extremely well.




    The point is that all of the other non-fighting aspects of the game's animation is fine. Cutscenes, super moves, etc all covey weight and realistic movement. So the animators clearly know what they are doing, but are intentionally half-assing the actual fighting game moves to look like we're still in 1991. It was fine and completely justified back then, these days not so much though.

    Again, I'm not saying you can't like MK or NRS other games, but you gotta admit their in-game fighting animation is really bad. Doesn't mean you can't like it, just that it is intentionally made poorly. Just imagine if the cutscene stuff was the standard for the in-game fighting. It would make the game way more impactful and cinematic.

    I hope MK11 is a change in that direction, but given NRS track record, I'm not holding my breath.

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    What would be a good example of fighting game animations then? Because I literally do not get the complaints, I need some sort of comparison because it feels like I'm taking crazy pills here

    I guess it depends on what you mean by "animation". Most people mean it in the sense of the poses the characters go through, but some people also mean things that enhance the overall presentation, like particle effects, sound effects, frame rate, and hit stop. MK does good work with those other effects, but the actual animation of the attacker is unconvincing.

    If you look at like SF3, the way characters coil up and snap their attacks is a dramatized version of what a real fighter would do. There's a tension when holding wind-up, then a very sharp release. This series of comparison shots between SF3 and SF4 show what I mean: http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/15/artist-explains-why-street-fighter-iiis-animations-are-better-than-street-fighter-ivs/

    See the way Chun-Li pulls her center of gravity backward in the wind-up in SF3? Even the most dramatic kung fu masters in MK / IJ have less wind up, and even less core movement; they move their limbs around a stationary center.

    I have some other thoughts, but I figured that would be a good baseline to establish.

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  • fRAWRstfRAWRst They Said I Needed My Head Examined But I'd Rather Just Take YoursRegistered User regular
    comparing anything to 3s is very unfair

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  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    edited December 7
    Finally watched the MK trailer. That is hype as fuck. Was the spoiler thing
    Order realm? That's a the first thing that came to mind but I didn't immediately recognize the character

    I'll check out the animation complaint videos later.

    Edit: rewatched some of the stuff Dover posted. Tl:Dr...I guess? I doubt I'll even notice when I play mk11

    WingedWeasel on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Grove wrote: »

    Like what you like but people can dislike what they dislike and for a games animations to look like that in 2018...I’ll happilly spend my money on anything else.

    They aren't stilted and terrible, they're "nostalgic". And also stilted and terrible.

    I would describe Mortal Kombat as literally "grotesquely violent". Isn't that kind of the point? I mean, gigantic breasts and dumb swimsuits don't keep me from playing Soulcalibur VI or Dead or Alive 5 respectively, so I'm hardly in a position to judge Mortal Kombat X even if watching someone's highly-detailed entrails tumble out of their torso after they were ripped in half is going to give me pause in a way even Ivy Valentine couldn't.

    But I'll still chainsaw people in half in Gears of War 4 if given the opportunity. I suppose whereas GoW is still arguably the best dedicated third-person multiplayer shooter, MKX was just...fun, I suppose? The digitized-photo style of the original franchise meant it wouldn't hold up next to Street Fighter, much less KOF, from an aesthetic standpoint, so it largely passed me by. I'm also completely amateur, at best, so I probably shouldn't be judging fighters at all.

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  • El FantasticoEl Fantastico Toronto, ONRegistered User regular
    Here's the thing: You enjoy fighting games? You like 2D fighters over 3D? Maybe you're a weapons nerd, and like Soul Calibur over Tekken. You like superheroes beating up supervillains, or you want your blood and gore animated deaths, even if some of them are stupid, over-the-top, and don't make sense.

    That's great. Just...

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Skull2185 wrote: »


    Yes! Fucking YES!

    Oooh I hope it has Injustice 2's loot system.

    That doesn't look great at all. Still overhyping the violence and kills I see. Let's see if they finally spent some of the massive budget on animation. I'm sure they didn't and it'll still look and move like ground-up ass.

    MK isn't about being perfect or a tournament fighter. It's about something people seem to have forgotten, having fun and mashing buttons with your friends.

    Plus their story mode is streets ahead of any other fighting game

    is that why nrs releases 32 different balance patches in the first week of the game's release and throws so much money at sponsored "esports" tournaments that even people who hate mk participate long enough to get paid before dropping it again?

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  • BRIAN BLESSEDBRIAN BLESSED Maybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHH Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    A reminder that MKX was an absolutely dogshit PC port. That alone is enough to put me off 11.

    Yeah this was my main beef with MKX, an utter shitshow that needed full-game redownloads to get "patched"

    It probably won't matter to most people because they play on consoles, but I'm going to wait a while before buying it just to see what the updates are like. I'm not in the position to waste my bandwidth like that ever again

  • ReynoldsReynolds Raving Rabbit Registered User regular
    fRAWRst wrote: »
    comparing anything to 3s is very unfair

    Later SNK stuff like Garou is pretty close. I remember noticing that Terry turns his cap backwards for Power Dunk and being blown away. He also holds it in place during Rising Tackle!

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Here's the thing: You enjoy fighting games? You like 2D fighters over 3D? Maybe you're a weapons nerd, and like Soul Calibur over Tekken. You like superheroes beating up supervillains, or you want your blood and gore animated deaths, even if some of them are stupid, over-the-top, and don't make sense.

    That's great. Just...

    b60ggd0bed5v.png

    I don't have problem with MK being violent, I have a problem with the characters moving horribly for no reason. It could be being super violent in a much better looking way.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    there is only one nrs game with good animations

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Here's the thing: You enjoy fighting games? You like 2D fighters over 3D? Maybe you're a weapons nerd, and like Soul Calibur over Tekken. You like superheroes beating up supervillains, or you want your blood and gore animated deaths, even if some of them are stupid, over-the-top, and don't make sense.

    That's great. Just...

    b60ggd0bed5v.png

    I don't have problem with MK being violent, I have a problem with the characters moving horribly for no reason. It could be being super violent in a much better looking way.

    I agree with all that, but I think sometimes people are a little aggressive in sharing that sentiment.

    If a NRS fan wants to have a legitimate dialog about difference in opinion, I would be very interested in reading that, but I don't want to tell them they're wrong for being positive about something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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  • Undead MonkeyUndead Monkey Anchorage, AKRegistered User regular
    Yeah, discussing the animations is one thing, but the way people come out of the woodwork do dogpile on it for the umpteenth time is tantamount to gatekeeping.

    We get it - the animations are bad. Hell, I'm sure NRS is well aware of people feeling this way. But they love their games and so do fans. Just give it a rest. Let us be happy about this new game we're excited about without dragging this all back up again and again and again.

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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Yeah, discussing the animations is one thing, but the way people come out of the woodwork do dogpile on it for the umpteenth time is tantamount to gatekeeping.

    We get it - the animations are bad. Hell, I'm sure NRS is well aware of people feeling this way. But they love their games and so do fans. Just give it a rest. Let us be happy about this new game we're excited about without dragging this all back up again and again and again.

    Personally, I don't even like MK much, but I want to understand why people are excited.

    I will say, though, that playing as Jason and Xenomorph made the game click for me in a way that the original cast really didn't. I want every game to have a grappler with a lake mist teleport!

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  • Undead MonkeyUndead Monkey Anchorage, AKRegistered User regular
    templewulf wrote: »
    Yeah, discussing the animations is one thing, but the way people come out of the woodwork do dogpile on it for the umpteenth time is tantamount to gatekeeping.

    We get it - the animations are bad. Hell, I'm sure NRS is well aware of people feeling this way. But they love their games and so do fans. Just give it a rest. Let us be happy about this new game we're excited about without dragging this all back up again and again and again.

    Personally, I don't even like MK much, but I want to understand why people are excited.

    I will say, though, that playing as Jason and Xenomorph made the game click for me in a way that the original cast really didn't. I want every game to have a grappler with a lake mist teleport!

    From a technical standpoint or a skilled fighting game player's standpoint? I can't tell you why I love these games so much. I love playing fighting games, love watching FGC tournaments, reading about fighting games and upcoming things on sites like eventhubs and SRK. But I don't analyze frame data or optimal combo strings or anything like that.

    I grew up in arcades (I'm an old man - turning 42 tomorrow). For me, I was around when SFII first hit my local arcade, as well as the original MK, Marvel Super Heroes, etc. I worked in a video game store when the first Tekken and SC came out in the US. It's a nostalgia thing for me. These are the games I came up on. More than that, at least with the NRS games, I really like the gritty horror atmosphere - and I especially love the guest characters of the recent games (based on my age I also grew up on 80's and 90's horror and sci-fi movies). I'm also a comic book nerd, so there's my connection to the Injustice series.

    I also think the games are fun. If I had to say I am any "good" - that being very subjective - at any fighting games, it would be SF and SC. But I like how different the NRS games are from everything else; how different they play and feel. I, too, wish they flowed a little better, but nothing that has ever or likely will ever diminish my love for playing them.

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  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    templewulf wrote: »
    Yeah, discussing the animations is one thing, but the way people come out of the woodwork do dogpile on it for the umpteenth time is tantamount to gatekeeping.

    We get it - the animations are bad. Hell, I'm sure NRS is well aware of people feeling this way. But they love their games and so do fans. Just give it a rest. Let us be happy about this new game we're excited about without dragging this all back up again and again and again.

    Personally, I don't even like MK much, but I want to understand why people are excited.

    I will say, though, that playing as Jason and Xenomorph made the game click for me in a way that the original cast really didn't. I want every game to have a grappler with a lake mist teleport!

    As an MK fan it is because those games are fun whereas other fighting games aren't. this is before you consider the strides in single player compared to other fighting games. I'm strictly referring to competitive multiplayer. Competitive of course being relative at my level. I don't play enough fighting games anymore to elaborate all that much, and of course a lot of it is tied to specific kharacters. I am not a huge Injustice fan for example as I just can't begin to care about most DC characters, but if scorpion, subzero, and reptile show up I'm in 1000%.

    On the more technical side I really like having an actual block button it just feels so unbelievably uncomfortable playing games where it doesn't exist. I understand the complaints about the animations in MK but either they don't bother me or they are what I want compared to the way other fighting games handle it. In many cases it boils down to this: would it look better as X instead of Y and my brain says "maybe? But it looks awesome now so who cares?". I'm fine with imrpoving but this looks great to me.

    As an aside I know I've seen stuff in the past where people shit on MK or NRS in general and it kills discussion, which is the discussion now weirdly enough. I haven't come across anything that feels this way this time. Yes people can enjoy things, people are also allowed to dislike things and if they want to shit on MK or NRS that's fine too. It isn't really going to dampen my excitement

    I highly doubtful anything can be read into from the the trailer since didn't the MKX one have the traditional scorpion vs subzero fight? but old storyline:
    It is interesting that they had raiden vs scorpion as scorpion was the appointed defender of the realms from the old God's. He also can't really die since he is a specter and with rwiden going all peace through tyranny Megatron maybe that's going to come to the front again?

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  • Undead MonkeyUndead Monkey Anchorage, AKRegistered User regular
    edited December 8
    Oh yeah - as @WingedWeasel mentioned - the campaigns in the recent NRS games are also fantastic. The one for Injustice 2 was major strides better than any in other fighting games, IMO.

    It's just icing on the cake for why to be excited for MK11.

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  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    MK is probably my favorite fighting game series these days, but yeah, the animation complaints are valid. At least their actual character models have improved a lot in recent years; MK9's characters looked awful as well as being poorly animated. There are still some real ugly characters in MKX (I think the xenomorph is a particularly terrible rendition of the movie monster) but I'm hopeful that the next iteration will continue to make progress there. As for improving the animation quality, there I don't have as much faith. I think the iterative nature of these fighting games sort of makes that a more difficult prospect than it might otherwise be. Sub Zero always needs to move and fight like Sub Zero.

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