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Penny Arcade - Comic - Impetus

124

Posts

  • dennisdennis Registered User regular
    For me, sandwich shops are all about the bread and the sauces. Okay and sometimes the meats. I love variety. And I love fluffy sub bread. Give me some rosemary parm something or other, or some asiago foccacia dealy, or whatever. Stuff that is nice and fresh because they go through so many a day. And give me that tasty red pepper spread, or that mustardy "grille sauce" (made with organic grille, presumably), or the chipotle mayo that is always way better than any I've been able to find premade or any I've been able to make myself.

    Given that I telecommute, I've put a LOT of time, effort and thought into trying to improve my sandwich game at home. Bread that you buy that lasts longer than a couple of days is a pale imitator of what you'll get in a sandwich shop. And you're definitely not getting any variety. You're picking one thing and deciding to eat it for the next two weeks, generally. I got some decent results with take and bake, but the choices and results are limited there. Most of what they sell tends to be full of air bubbles, which is no good for saucification.

    And good luck trying to stock a decent selection of chicken, steak, ham, etc. as well as cold-cuts of all the above (plus the ubiquitous turkey). Get bored with sandwiches one week and suddenly you're throwing a lot of stuff in the dumpster. Oh god, I've thrown out so much stuff...

    Right now my favorite place is Pita Pit. Which is funny, because I've never been that hot on sandwich rollups. I like a nice gyro or falafel, but generally those come with a substantial pita wrapped around them. But I like Pita Pit for two reasons: heat and vegetables. I like my food hot, or at least quite warm. I'm always disappointed by some sandwich shops that "toast" your sub, which somehow manages to come out the other side only a few microdegrees above room temperature. But it comes off the grill TOO hot sometimes. Then they roll it up and wrap it, which just locks in that temperature.

    And the vegetables there include ones I almost never see at other places, namely roasted red peppers and artichokes. Oh, and did I mention that if you ask they'll throw just about any veggie on the grill and saute it for you? I get sauteed mushrooms and onions as a free action.

    They're also one of the few sandwich places where I like about a half dozen meat options (plus falafel). With most sandwich places, I wind up ordering the same sandwich or two after a while, because they're just much better than anything else. So far that hasn't happened at my local Pita Pit.

    But maybe I'm just biased because the people that work there are rad and friendly and love to talk about food. That's always nice at a cheap food joint. Most of the time people at places like that just don't give a shit, and I don't blame them. They're not being paid enough to give one. But everyone from the main manager on down just loves to talk above all the different things they can do on that grill. And if you can't tell already from the length of this post, I'm pretty good at talking for a long time about fairly meaningless shit.

    NSDFRandRingo
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »

    A seemingly nice guy with a lot of connections in the industry that is popular to hate?
    Nah if you click on the tweet and go to the tweet thread you can see what they're talking about.

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    The student union at UCF had a Pita Stop in it that I would stop in about 3-4 times a month and get a falafel wrap, hummus, and pasta salad. It was the best place to eat where the only other choices ended up being Subway, Domino's, and a small version of Chili's.

    I love falafel. It is the perfect non-meat sandwich filling. It is only improved when combined with hummus and vegetables. I can take or leave stuffed grape leaves depending on mood.

    There are also two really good Cuban places in Melbourne, near my home city, that have amazing sandwiches. I don't normally really care for cold cut ham but when it's on good Cuban sandwich with good pork and cheese it can be really good.

  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    NSDFRand wrote: »

    A seemingly nice guy with a lot of connections in the industry that is popular to hate?
    Nah if you click on the tweet and go to the tweet thread you can see what they're talking about.

    To reference a tired a Seth McFarlane joke, it kind of grinds my gears that this person, in the process of shit talking two comic artists who have transitioned hard into get-off-my-lawn status, also shit talks a bunch of other stuff that is totally unrelated. Like there is a huge amount of collateral damage in that tweet chain that doesn't need to be there and sounds, in itself, pretty old-mannish.

    BloodySloth on
    NSDFRandNamrokMoridin889DemonStaceyDark Raven XMagicalGoats
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »

    A seemingly nice guy with a lot of connections in the industry that is popular to hate?
    Nah if you click on the tweet and go to the tweet thread you can see what they're talking about.

    The tweet "thread" does pretty much nothing to convince me. If Jerry and Mike are the old-man nerds (which they are from an "older" generation during which being into "nerdy" things would still make you a target for bullying) this comes off as the elitist nerd who can't say anything good about anything that is anywhere near the mainstream and has "objective" reasons why things you like are garbage.

    It also seems to be presupposing that Jerry was "mad" about the Polygon review which, as it seems to have been pointed out already, is not an objective truth but a subjective reading of a very non-incendiary, vague statement.

    cB557NamrokMoridin889PreacherfortyMagicalGoats
  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    edited November 26
    To one of the previous comments: yeah, the writers of Penny Arcade absolutely do not get to act like they're "the little guys". They have more influence than some companies' PR divisions.

    As for the whole thing, I just want to say, Tycho of all people especially does not get to make fun of other people for "overthinking things". Sorry, Monsignor, but that dog won't hunt.

    Drascin on
    Furu
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited November 26
    NSDFRand wrote: »

    A seemingly nice guy with a lot of connections in the industry that is popular to hate?
    Nah if you click on the tweet and go to the tweet thread you can see what they're talking about.

    That's an interesting train of thought, though I've heard from many quarters that The Orville is good enough to have retroactively justified the rest of Seth MacFarlane's career. (haven't seen it myself, though).

    I also disagree that the PA boys are just bad at everything now. They do a lot of good, solid webcomicry. The main thrust of where this person is correct, though, is that they're hilariously resistant to change. Which I guess I'm supposed to relate to as a fellow Gen-Xer, but I just don't. I'm pretty consistently delighted with how modern culture takes all the stuff that used to be underground nerd shit in the 90s and makes it mainstream so that I can have every itch scratched a thousand times a day.

    Cambiata on
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Mocking a review for considering art's role and relation to the current political climate is the real problem here.

    Art does not exist in a vacuum, and good criticism of art should not pretend it does.

    CambiataFuruDrascinAegeriBloodySlothQuidRatherDashing89Moridin889YamiB.NightslyrDarkPrimusDarkewolfeCokomon
  • dennisdennis Registered User regular
    Don't Jerry and Mike get to have sometimes contradictory opinions, like the rest of humanity? If you claim you don't, you're lying or just not very introspective. I'm not saying we're all a complete pile of hypocrisy, but we all have contradictions.

    RatherDashing89cB557
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I think it's good that we're no longer debating whether games are, or ever can be, art. Now we've moved on to whether what that art is saying is a good thing or not.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    LockedOnTargetBloodySlothQuidadmanbNightslyrCokomonMagicalGoats
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I think it's good that we're no longer debating whether games are, or ever can be, art. Now we've moved on to whether what that art is saying is a good thing or not.

    I mean, I think it was only up for debate while kids who played games in the 80s were still kids. Now that we're adults and basically in control of the world, it's a foregone conclusion. The debate now seems to be whether you can contextualize and criticize art. Which, of course you can, but some people don't like that and think that their not liking it means that it's evil and wrong and perhaps a form of lying.

    BloodySlothCokomon
  • dennisdennis Registered User regular
    I think it's good that we're no longer debating whether games are, or ever can be, art. Now we've moved on to whether what that art is saying is a good thing or not.

    I thought we'd moved on to in-depth sandwich analysis.

    MarcinMNcB557Moridin889PonyNightslyrPLA
  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    The problem with the fire and brimstone sermons of Polygon, is that for all their posturing about how they and their ilk just want games to "better", all their rhetoric calls into question their subjects right to even exist. And that's not criticism. That's just being censorious, even if you stop short of saying the actual words "This should be censored". They're still laying the foundation for the argument against certain media's existence. Sometimes they even get starting on the plumbing too.

    I've seen a lot of good game criticism. Criticism that takes the game on it's own terms, and how well it achieves it's own goals. This is not what Polygon does.

  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters fair enough Registered User regular
    They're not even talking about a game. They're talking about the Netflix show.

    And what review is Tycho even referring to? I seriously don't understand this comic or even the vague intimations of the associated text post. Rather than falling on one side or the other about this topic I just feel left confused and bewildered as to what the point even is.

    Pokemon, to ignore the horrible terrible world. Friend Code: 3609-1288-7086
    forty
  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    They're not even talking about a game. They're talking about the Netflix show.

    And what review is Tycho even referring to? I seriously don't understand this comic or even the vague intimations of the associated text post. Rather than falling on one side or the other about this topic I just feel left confused and bewildered as to what the point even is.

    Here, I found it and read it before my original post. Full link, along with my choicest parts.

    https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/13/16577784/the-punisher-review-netflix-marvel
    While it’s admirable that The Punisher acknowledges the parallels between the behavior that we’re all tuning in to see Frank Castle commit — bloody, gun-fueled, extra-judicial revenge — and America’s seemingly ever-present incidents of mass shootings, the show goes no farther than that. Punisher stays dedicatedly neutral on what the solution to lone-gunman mass violence in America should be, by creating character stand-ins for both the guns rights and gun control side of our national debate and then depicting them both as hypocritical, lying, cowardly stereotypes.

    Without a broader, braver message on the subject, the acknowledgment of the fact that Frank’s personal quest for revenge can be so easily conflated with an anti-government, pro-guns bombing campaign enacted on innocents undercuts the heroic vigilante ideal. Frank is a fantasy. Bringing him this close to reality takes all the wind out of him.

    And then in closing
    The Punisher didn’t having me rolling my eyes at its dialogue, as I have with the worst of Marvel’s Netflix fare, but its attempts to tackle weighty real-world tensions undercuts its attempts to be a bullet-filled revenge fantasy. And its hesitance to follow through on its real-world elements and take a stand leave it feeling like a bridge with no middle; two opposed poles with just the wind between them.

    For me that's the biggest rub, although I could nitpick the entire review to death. The reviewer is upset The Punisher didn't pick a side in the gun control debate specifically, and the culture war more broadly. A lot of his other complaints, nitpicking the writing, the characters, totally different storylines he think aught to have happened, seem intrinsically tied and colored by this. It used to be critics could appreciate a shades of grey story, and it was the ignorant masses that demanded a black and white morality tale. My how times have changed.

    Frankiedarling
  • YoungFreyYoungFrey Registered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    The reviewer is upset The Punisher didn't pick a side in the gun control debate specifically, and the culture war more broadly. A lot of his other complaints, nitpicking the writing, the characters, totally different storylines he think aught to have happened, seem intrinsically tied and colored by this. It used to be critics could appreciate a shades of grey story, and it was the ignorant masses that demanded a black and white morality tale. My how times have changed.

    A woman wrote that article.

  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    YoungFrey wrote: »
    Namrok wrote: »
    The reviewer is upset The Punisher didn't pick a side in the gun control debate specifically, and the culture war more broadly. A lot of his other complaints, nitpicking the writing, the characters, totally different storylines he think aught to have happened, seem intrinsically tied and colored by this. It used to be critics could appreciate a shades of grey story, and it was the ignorant masses that demanded a black and white morality tale. My how times have changed.

    A woman wrote that article.

    Ok. Oops? Do you have anything else to add?

    dennis
  • YoungFreyYoungFrey Registered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    YoungFrey wrote: »
    Namrok wrote: »
    The reviewer is upset The Punisher didn't pick a side in the gun control debate specifically, and the culture war more broadly. A lot of his other complaints, nitpicking the writing, the characters, totally different storylines he think aught to have happened, seem intrinsically tied and colored by this. It used to be critics could appreciate a shades of grey story, and it was the ignorant masses that demanded a black and white morality tale. My how times have changed.

    A woman wrote that article.

    Ok. Oops? Do you have anything else to add?

    That you used the wrong pronoun more than once, I highlighted them in my quoting of your text.

  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    YoungFrey wrote: »
    Namrok wrote: »
    YoungFrey wrote: »
    Namrok wrote: »
    The reviewer is upset The Punisher didn't pick a side in the gun control debate specifically, and the culture war more broadly. A lot of his other complaints, nitpicking the writing, the characters, totally different storylines he think aught to have happened, seem intrinsically tied and colored by this. It used to be critics could appreciate a shades of grey story, and it was the ignorant masses that demanded a black and white morality tale. My how times have changed.

    A woman wrote that article.

    Ok. Oops? Do you have anything else to add?

    That you used the wrong pronoun more than once, I highlighted them in my quoting of your text.

    That about answers my question. I'll take my victories where I can get them.

    dennis
  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters fair enough Registered User regular
    Okay, that review does seem to actually engage with the piece. It actually critiques it constructively, talking about places where it fell flat and places where the show could be improved. Political opinions aside, I don't see anything actionable anywhere near the way Tycho/Jerry's argument positions it. Like, this review is about the show. The show is about a gun-toting vigilante. To not comment on its position within the broader context of 2017 would be absolute journalistic cowardice.

    There's a follow up where that reviewer expands on some of their side points here: https://www.polygon.com/tv/2017/11/16/16652478/punisher-marvel-universe-references

    That addendum is illuminating in a variety of ways and shows how invested they are in the universe and show.

    This other Polygon article on the Punisher is also very good: https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/21/16685306/the-punisher-netflix-lewis

    It's not pseudointellectual, it's art-level critique you might hear in actual Critique at art school. It's actually surprisingly engaged with the substance of the show.

    To be frank, Jerry's text post doesn't even seem to correlate even slightly with the review I just read! I doubt it is even about the review! He appears to just have a problem with Polygon in general, which, y'know. I can't comment on his inner mind. I guess it was basically a slow comic day and this was the best they could output.

    Pokemon, to ignore the horrible terrible world. Friend Code: 3609-1288-7086
    CambiataAegeriDarkewolfe
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    I haven't read anything on Punisher aside from some headlines and the stuff in this thread, but it sounds like Polygon is echoing a sentiment I've seen elsewhere, like the AV Club.

  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    Political opinions aside, I don't see anything actionable anywhere near the way Tycho/Jerry's argument positions it. Like, this review is about the show. The show is about a gun-toting vigilante. To not comment on its position within the broader context of 2017 would be absolute journalistic cowardice.

    So your second link? The one that digs further into Lewis? That was actually interesting.

    But here is the thing. The original review? It isn't criticizing The Punisher for not commenting on gun violence and vigilantism in our current political climate. It's criticizing The Punisher for making her think. She needs it to come down hard and without ambiguity on a side, so she knows whether to love it or hate it. She outright says as much in her concluding paragraph. She needs it to "take a stand".

    That's just horrible. It's the sort of negativity I'd take to indicate a show is a must watch. It portrays hot button issues with some actual subtlety and awareness of the human condition? It doesn't "take a stand"? Sounds like a show for me.

    As such, I totally see where Jerry is coming from.

    dennisDemonStaceyMagicalGoats
  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters fair enough Registered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    Political opinions aside, I don't see anything actionable anywhere near the way Tycho/Jerry's argument positions it. Like, this review is about the show. The show is about a gun-toting vigilante. To not comment on its position within the broader context of 2017 would be absolute journalistic cowardice.
    It portrays hot button issues with some actual subtlety and awareness of the human condition? It doesn't "take a stand"? Sounds like a show for me.

    As such, I totally see where Jerry is coming from.

    See, I'm down with the criticism that the show would be improved by either taking a stand or sidestepping the entire issue. It's a show with a fundamentally uncomfortable premise based in comic-book logic. It can either handwave the vigilante stuff with superhero references and other things that clearly show that the MCU is not comparable to real world politics, or it needs to really seriously engage and make a strong statement about the politics. Only halfway engaging is not a shade of grey, it's using moral relativism and ambiguity as a guise for "makes u think" style social commentary.

    Note that this isn't to say that I need it to pick a side, as it were. That would show more intention and nuance than what it is currently evident but I wouldn't find it worthwhile. This is a multifaceted issue. What I believe would improve the show, what I am taking this review to be saying would improve the show, is either

    A: an engagement with the topics that the show motions at, with seriousness and nuance that gives you an idea on the show's perspective so that it can be seen as making an argument and taking a clear stand

    OR

    B: a nuanced and careful handwave that will assuage the viewer that no, this piece of entertainment is not looking to make statements or educate.

    And I'll be honest, this is really the fault of those who decided this was a character that needed a show. They chose to make it. They should know that they need to handle the character delicately if they want it to play well. Do the social commentary right and thoroughly or don't do it at all. You feel me?

    Pokemon, to ignore the horrible terrible world. Friend Code: 3609-1288-7086
    flamebroiledchickenCambiataAegeri
  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    Les Miserables is a book which covers "both sides" and still makes a point. It has evil poor people and evil rich people. Miserable poor and miserable rich. Good convicts and bad convicts. And yet it still has a clearly defined stand against oppression and societies' cycle of crime and punishment. It's got shades of grey in the sense that it doesn't simplify things to "rich are bad, poor are good". But it still is made with the intention of making a point about society.

    A show about Punisher should present both sides of the gun control debate, if that's what it's about. But when you make the protagonist not just a pro gun activist but an actual mass murderer, you do need to take a side re: "is mass murderer bad". That's not identical to the gun control debate because very few pro gun people are pro mass murderer. Given that some people see Frank Castle as a hero and others see him as a tragically disturbed madman, you may need to indicate which you as a writer think he is.

    fightinfilipinoCambiatamilski
  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    Political opinions aside, I don't see anything actionable anywhere near the way Tycho/Jerry's argument positions it. Like, this review is about the show. The show is about a gun-toting vigilante. To not comment on its position within the broader context of 2017 would be absolute journalistic cowardice.
    It portrays hot button issues with some actual subtlety and awareness of the human condition? It doesn't "take a stand"? Sounds like a show for me.

    As such, I totally see where Jerry is coming from.

    See, I'm down with the criticism that the show would be improved by either taking a stand or sidestepping the entire issue. It's a show with a fundamentally uncomfortable premise based in comic-book logic. It can either handwave the vigilante stuff with superhero references and other things that clearly show that the MCU is not comparable to real world politics, or it needs to really seriously engage and make a strong statement about the politics. Only halfway engaging is not a shade of grey, it's using moral relativism and ambiguity as a guise for "makes u think" style social commentary.

    Note that this isn't to say that I need it to pick a side, as it were. That would show more intention and nuance than what it is currently evident but I wouldn't find it worthwhile. This is a multifaceted issue. What I believe would improve the show, what I am taking this review to be saying would improve the show, is either

    A: an engagement with the topics that the show motions at, with seriousness and nuance that gives you an idea on the show's perspective so that it can be seen as making an argument and taking a clear stand

    OR

    B: a nuanced and careful handwave that will assuage the viewer that no, this piece of entertainment is not looking to make statements or educate.

    And I'll be honest, this is really the fault of those who decided this was a character that needed a show. They chose to make it. They should know that they need to handle the character delicately if they want it to play well. Do the social commentary right and thoroughly or don't do it at all. You feel me?

    Who defines if it's done "well"? I'm almost done with the show. Binged it pretty hard while dog sitting this weekend. What I'm loving about it, is that none of these characters are meant for this sort of political argument to be superimposed over top of their actions. They were all complex, multi-faceted characters with a wide array of life experiences that for several of them, like Frank Castle and Karen Page, we saw over previous seasons and shows.

    Hell, that might be it's best commentary in the first place. The way this bizarre political climate keeps trying to force actual people into pro/anti political caricatures like forcing a cow through a cheese grater.

    I mean, Polygon even wrote a great article about Lewis. Lewis' story is a tragedy. At no point during his character arc can you really go "Oh, he shouldn't have done that." There is no goofy Anakin Skywalker moment where he just suddenly "turns" because the story demands it. It happens by small measures, to a damaged human. There is no "These people are just innately evil and not like you" take on it. Lewis wasn't just a bad seed. His fall was probably more nuanced and realistic than people are comfortable seeing. Because the show isn't "taking a stand".

    Let's turn this around. How would you have had The Punisher be different to better "take a stand"? What does that even mean, besides picking a side to be the "right" one?

    DistecDemonStacey
  • DistecDistec Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    The PA boys write a webcomic utilizing their usual assy, sarcastic tone - part and parcel of their entire ouevre. This should come as no shock to anybody who has read PA for more than a year.
    Then, in the follow-up newspost, Jerry pretty succinctly states that Polygon reviews are basically "not for him", and does so without even really attacking the outlet - unless you think "I don't recognize what they're writing about" or similarly mild criticism is an attack.

    For some reason, this gets framed as hypocritical, change-resistant, and anti-intellectual (to some applause), and Polygon is given a vigorous, concerned defense because obviously they require it! This also calls for a spirited discussion about if/how Mike & Jerry are separated from their Gabe & Tycho characters and to what extent, even though they have always played fast and loose with how much their real selves bleed into their drawn counterparts (sometimes to contradictory effect).

    I can't say I'm surprised by these proceedings. Doesn't seem to have to do with any intellectual or moral failing on their end. It's obvious this has everything to do with people having their buttons pushed for having their Important & Quality review outlet dismissed without sufficient justification.

    It's 2017 and it's okay to not like Polygon. Most people don't, any way. :)

    Distec on
    Namrok
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    Ah yes, the usual suspects who don't really participate in the community return to the comments section. This should come as no shock to anybody who has read PA for more than a year.

    EDIT: Speaking of which, there is a Debate and Discourse thread about the Punisher right now! We can discuss it there, if you'd like:
    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/215073/punisher-marvel-murder-machine-spoilers

    Hahnsoo1 on
    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
    DistecCambiataAegeri
  • DistecDistec Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.

    Distec on
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    Distec wrote: »
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.
    My thought is that you should spend some time engaging with some of us like TychoCelchuu, Pony, and Cambiata (outside of the comments section). You might learn something (or not, who knows?). I know that I've changed a lot based on my time with them. It's a lot easier to see people more charitably and wrap your head around a different point of view if you have proximity to them.

    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    Hahnsoo1 on
    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
    Cambiata
  • NamrokNamrok Herndon, VARegistered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Distec wrote: »
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.
    My thought is that you should spend some time engaging with some of us like TychoCelchuu, Pony, and Cambiata (outside of the comments section). You might learn something (or not, who knows?). I know that I've changed a lot based on my time with them. It's a lot easier to see people more charitably and wrap your head around a different point of view if you have proximity to them.

    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    I used to be active here more often. I signed up just a smidge longer ago than you.

    Then all the fun people who's views I enjoyed started getting jailed and banned. Then the goalpost eventually moved up to my own views and I started getting infracted or booted from threads.

    It became obvious "my kind" isn't welcome here. But sometimes it's still fun to poke around when I see a comic that speaks to me and I think I might have a little support. But I've learned better than to stick around too long. Because it's always going to be 1 vs Many with my views, and when it comes to moderation, it's easier to boot the 1.

    DaedalusFrankiedarlingforty
  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters fair enough Registered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    Namrok wrote: »
    Political opinions aside, I don't see anything actionable anywhere near the way Tycho/Jerry's argument positions it. Like, this review is about the show. The show is about a gun-toting vigilante. To not comment on its position within the broader context of 2017 would be absolute journalistic cowardice.
    It portrays hot button issues with some actual subtlety and awareness of the human condition? It doesn't "take a stand"? Sounds like a show for me.

    As such, I totally see where Jerry is coming from.

    See, I'm down with the criticism that the show would be improved by either taking a stand or sidestepping the entire issue. It's a show with a fundamentally uncomfortable premise based in comic-book logic. It can either handwave the vigilante stuff with superhero references and other things that clearly show that the MCU is not comparable to real world politics, or it needs to really seriously engage and make a strong statement about the politics. Only halfway engaging is not a shade of grey, it's using moral relativism and ambiguity as a guise for "makes u think" style social commentary.

    Note that this isn't to say that I need it to pick a side, as it were. That would show more intention and nuance than what it is currently evident but I wouldn't find it worthwhile. This is a multifaceted issue. What I believe would improve the show, what I am taking this review to be saying would improve the show, is either

    A: an engagement with the topics that the show motions at, with seriousness and nuance that gives you an idea on the show's perspective so that it can be seen as making an argument and taking a clear stand

    OR

    B: a nuanced and careful handwave that will assuage the viewer that no, this piece of entertainment is not looking to make statements or educate.

    And I'll be honest, this is really the fault of those who decided this was a character that needed a show. They chose to make it. They should know that they need to handle the character delicately if they want it to play well. Do the social commentary right and thoroughly or don't do it at all. You feel me?

    Let's turn this around. How would you have had The Punisher be different to better "take a stand"? What does that even mean, besides picking a side to be the "right" one?

    Well, according to the Polygon reviewer:
    Creating an unsubtle caricature of a racist for your hero to oppose with a quip does not actually contribute to the conversation around Islamophobia in post-9/11 American culture, nor properly depict the nuances of the issue you’re trying to address.

    They can work to actually investigate what makes people Islamophobic, what it means for them in places of authority and otherwise, and how to actually engage with examples of Islamophobia with more severity and investment than a quip.
    While it’s admirable that The Punisher acknowledges the parallels between the behavior that we’re all tuning in to see Frank Castle commit — bloody, gun-fueled, extra-judicial revenge — and America’s seemingly ever-present incidents of mass shootings, the show goes no farther than that. Punisher stays dedicatedly neutral on what the solution to lone-gunman mass violence in America should be, by creating character stand-ins for both the guns rights and gun control side of our national debate and then depicting them both as hypocritical, lying, cowardly stereotypes.

    Without a broader, braver message on the subject, the acknowledgment of the fact that Frank’s personal quest for revenge can be so easily conflated with an anti-government, pro-guns bombing campaign enacted on innocents undercuts the heroic vigilante ideal. Frank is a fantasy. Bringing him this close to reality takes all the wind out of him.

    Do more than give a nod to the general vicinity of the subject. Talk, pardon me, frankly about how romanticizing gun violence contributes to the mass shootings. Have a vigilante idealist Frank-wannabe die from a self-inflicted GSW after killing people wantonly. Talk about the obsession with bodycount and the gun models. Have a gun control advocate kill someone because they don't know how to handle a gun and have no trigger discipline. Have a villain never touch a gun and instead drive a truck into a crowd, and only a gun-wielding vigilante is able to stop them. These are just examples, I'm not a writer.
    Then, without giving anything away, the resolution of the climax manages to both feel out of character for Frank (in a way I expect many Punisher fans will find alienating) and implausibly favorable to him. This is Punisher’s second biggest problem after how slow it moves: that it wants to be a show about the real experiences of veterans and terrorist, political mass violence in America today and it wants to be a show about Frank Castle putting a skull on his chest and surviving a near-death beating from a cackling secret agent.

    Don't let Frank get away clean from the violence. Compare this ending to the end of Luke Cage. Frank needs to either be realistically hurt, incarcerated, or in some way deal with the consequences if they want the story to have weight. Or they need to admit they're not trying to be realistic at all and not try to be gritty. As is, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

    Now, all of this being said, I'm not the reviewer, I'm merely exploring the perspective that the Polygon review was invested in the piece of media and this was an unfair and basically unthinking comic. It's just taking a swipe at Polygon for reasons that seem pretty separate from the quality of their review of a comic book tv show.

    I don't really wanna get any deeper into the substance of the Punisher and how it might be improved, since that's not really on topic. As mentioned above, there's a perfectly good thread open for that over in D&D.

    Pokemon, to ignore the horrible terrible world. Friend Code: 3609-1288-7086
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Namrok wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Distec wrote: »
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.
    My thought is that you should spend some time engaging with some of us like TychoCelchuu, Pony, and Cambiata (outside of the comments section). You might learn something (or not, who knows?). I know that I've changed a lot based on my time with them. It's a lot easier to see people more charitably and wrap your head around a different point of view if you have proximity to them.

    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    I used to be active here more often. I signed up just a smidge longer ago than you.

    Then all the fun people who's views I enjoyed started getting jailed and banned. Then the goalpost eventually moved up to my own views and I started getting infracted or booted from threads.

    It became obvious "my kind" isn't welcome here. But sometimes it's still fun to poke around when I see a comic that speaks to me and I think I might have a little support. But I've learned better than to stick around too long. Because it's always going to be 1 vs Many with my views, and when it comes to moderation, it's easier to boot the 1.
    This is actually a second account that I signed up on after I forgot the password to my initial account, before it wasn't allowed to do so. :-P I'm ancient.

    And yeah, the community has changed a lot since we started out. This community is heavily moderated, too. I agree with both of those sentiments. I think that's a good thing, rather than a bad one.

    But that doesn't mean that you have to stop engaging with people. Especially the people who supposedly give a "vigorous, concerned defense" of things that they might like, or at least, with a sympathetic point of view to a critique that someone else wrote. If we only meet at times when we fight, then we're always going to fight. This is Kindergarten 101.

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    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
  • DistecDistec Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Distec wrote: »
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.
    My thought is that you should spend some time engaging with some of us like TychoCelchuu, Pony, and Cambiata (outside of the comments section). You might learn something (or not, who knows?). I know that I've changed a lot based on my time with them. It's a lot easier to see people more charitably and wrap your head around a different point of view if you have proximity to them.

    Fair post. Let me say that I am not lacking appreciation for this sentiment. I understand that people like me are likely viewed as interlopers who don't "get" or engage with the community. I know what it's like on the other side.

    But in my defense - and with respect - I only ever feel like commenting on some of the PA comics. Most of the content on the other subforums would be things I get from other sources, and so they don't really interest me. And relatedly, I am far more likely to comment on something that has a lot of comment activity - which just so happen to be the posts that are controversial. There's a reason this is the only topic going at 4 pages in this subforum, currently (with the EA Star Wars debacle a semi-distant second place).
    I know; this is a bad look. But it is what it is, unforced. And while I am not accusing you of this in particular, I somewhat resent any notion that I need to earn some kind of privilege* to speak on these matters; so long as I'm keeping to the standards of respectability and decorum.

    Also - at risk of possibly being too kind to myself - I'd like to think I'm trying to give people a fair shake. Or at least as fair a shake as I've often received from these discussions (which has not consistently been the case). I'm certainly not here to attack "SJWs" or anything of the like. Frankly, I bite my tongue on a lot of political things I read these days. But in this particular instance, it really feels like people are trying to extrapolate far too much from this comic and post. I'm not attacking anybody's politics; I'm saying "Are we really this surprised and/or disappointed? We should all know the act by now". And of, course, I have disagreements when it comes to any given detail.

    In retrospect, I should have dialed back some of my sarcasm (poor form).

    *I am fully aware that this is a privilege that could be revoked at any time for any arbitrary reason, nonetheless. Tube could wake up one morning and say "fuck this dude bye" and I don't have a recourse. Fair 'nuff.

  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    Namrok wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Distec wrote: »
    I'm happy this setup is still running like clockwork! :D

    However, if you think I'm being uncharitable or otherwise in error with my assessment above, a penny for your thoughts.
    My thought is that you should spend some time engaging with some of us like TychoCelchuu, Pony, and Cambiata (outside of the comments section). You might learn something (or not, who knows?). I know that I've changed a lot based on my time with them. It's a lot easier to see people more charitably and wrap your head around a different point of view if you have proximity to them.

    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    I used to be active here more often. I signed up just a smidge longer ago than you.

    Then all the fun people who's views I enjoyed started getting jailed and banned. Then the goalpost eventually moved up to my own views and I started getting infracted or booted from threads.

    It became obvious "my kind" isn't welcome here. But sometimes it's still fun to poke around when I see a comic that speaks to me and I think I might have a little support. But I've learned better than to stick around too long. Because it's always going to be 1 vs Many with my views, and when it comes to moderation, it's easier to boot the 1.

    Yuuuuup. Smarmy dismissiveness of people because they don't post as often used to be taboo on this forum, once upon a time. Used to be, normal users couldn't see post counts for exactly that reason.

    On topic, here's the real point of friction, I think: The "games as art" saw success right as art criticism reduced itself strictly to pomo socio-political analysis. Which is not to say that that kind of deconstruction has no place, just that there used to be more than one value axis on which to judge a work. This art crit environment comes across as demanding that everything become a Manichean morality play. I expect Jack Thompson to be rehabilitated any day now.

    Daedalus on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Distec wrote: »
    But in my defense - and with respect - I only ever feel like commenting on some of the PA comics. Most of the content on the other subforums would be things I get from other sources, and so they don't really interest me.

    Pffft, no way you're going to find a thread about Nationalistic Costumery on any other forum. I take prideful proprietary ownership of that once-a-year thread extravaganza.

    Hahnsoo1
  • dennisdennis Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    This is actually a second account that I signed up on after I forgot the password to my initial account, before it wasn't allowed to do so. :-P I'm ancient.

    You, too?

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    .
    dennis wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    This is actually a second account that I signed up on after I forgot the password to my initial account, before it wasn't allowed to do so. :-P I'm ancient.

    You, too?
    No, I'm 1. Hahnsoo1. :D

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    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
    dennisMoridin889Dark Raven X
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    I'm not super thrilled at you taking it upon yourselves to tell people that they haven't been posting here long enough to be taken seriously, and find your accusation of tribalism in this context to be hypocritical.

    NightslyrcB557DemonStaceyBloodySlothDaedalusdennisPreacherNSDFRandAegeriJeixNobodyfortyMagicalGoats
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. If one day - you have someone that you like Please tell me. Alright?Registered User regular
    polygon is actually a fairly successful website and framing it as some fire and brimstone fringe that no one likes doesn't do anyone any favours

    yrapT1L.jpg
    BloodySlothHahnsoo1CambiataAegeri
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    Tube wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    EDIT: And this goes for you, too, and all the other usual suspects. We don't know you, so it's much harder to charitably view your opinions in any way, especially since you and certain other posters only post here during comics that are relevant to the larger culture wars. It stinks of tribalism.

    I'm not super thrilled at you taking it upon yourselves to tell people that they haven't been posting here long enough to be taken seriously, and find your accusation of tribalism in this context to be hypocritical.
    I apologize. My thought was that we are both engaging in tribalism, not that only one person or group is doing it. But I could have stated that more clearly, since it seems to be extremely ambiguous. I actually own up to my sticking with my tribe, and try to go for more engagement when I'm aware of it. Again, I apologize.

    Hahnsoo1 on
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    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
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