Due to a security update, you may have to reset your password. Don’t panic, nothing has gone wrong and your password is safe. If you don’t have access to that email, send Tube a message at [email protected] More info here: https://status.vanillaforums.com/incidents/2zdqxf3bt7mj
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Lootboxes, Microtransactions, and [Gambling in Gaming]

1323335373862

Posts

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Unlike lootboxes for a digital game occupied by transient players that might eventually collapse...i still use magic cards from when i was 12 because we can build out our house decks so when i'm chilling with friends i can just throw down a game of magic with everyone.
    This is a function of the card itself, not the method of acquisition.

    You could also make the same argument that any lootbox game like FUT/Hearthstone that allows you play local multiplayer or vs AI will allow you to use the cards long after the internet multiplayer scene dies, and I don't feel that holds water.


    If the unthinkable happens, blizzard collapses, or for some reason dumps hearthstone, and they stop supporting it and operating systems and device platforms advance and the game ends up in the inoperable dustpan... you got nothing. All the cards you gambled to get like tears in the rain. Eventually just due to technical advance or collapse you can lose the thing you paid for. Literally in 100 years, when we're in the wastelands of 2118, I could still have magic decks from the 1900s in my ruck sack to pass the hours. The players someone gambled to get in FUT? Kinda totally useless as soon as the next FUT comes out.

    Selling individual items for digital games is shakey enough due to the transient nature of video gaming (video gaming is generally about playing the newest and shiniest games not playing the same game for 20+ year's). Putting all those items behind a gamble so that some folks spend hundreds to get an ephemeral line of data associated with their account in a game they will abandon within the decade? That's like cyberpunk dystopian nightmare fuel.

    Even with magic I can always skip the gamble and go with a pre con deck set where I know every card in the pack and can get a reasonably balanced experience out of it. I don't necessarily need to gamble to play the game. In most of these lootbox scenarios (as far as I can tell) the only option is gambling either with real money or with fake money you grind out in game, and they seemingly don't have a secondary market where you can sell off the high rarity items you don't plan on using to recoup your cash and allow non gamblers to just pay a moderately flat rate for an item they need/want to play at the level they desire.

    Boosters are definitely gambling. However they aren't an unavoidable and necessary component to gameplay in any way. You don't absolutely need to gamble in order to gain power in the game, there's other avenues by which to get the pieces you want for a deck that only involve gambling in the fact you are acting as the payout on the secondary market.

    Jeep-EepElvenshaedispatch.o
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Don't worry about it, guys. EA will just blame the bottom falling out of their revenue on Anthem.

    If Anthem crashes around or at the same time as a bad finding for them, it might get them subject to a hostile takeover.

    I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    What exactly is your point here about the cost of playing Magic?

    That it is a similar amount of expense to other lootbox games, if not more so due to its card treadmill.

    Except you can purchase Magic cards from a variety of places. You aren't forced to use a single storefront that is run by the publisher and from which they get a cut of all sales and resales. Also, there's the fact that the Magic cards are actual physical objects that you retain possession of. Video game EULAs these days basically say you don't even own the game itself.

    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    ElvenshaeMatev
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Fallout is starting. Supposed screenshot of One Piece Treasure Cruise in Belgium:

    (spoilered for v-scroll)
    20180919_230458.png

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    There's definitely a spectrum here, much like how there is differentiation (no matter how thin) between legal Multi-Level Marketing companies and full-blown pyramid schemes.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
    SleepElvenshaeLoisLaneMatev
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    What exactly is your point here about the cost of playing Magic?

    That it is a similar amount of expense to other lootbox games, if not more so due to its card treadmill.

    Except you can purchase Magic cards from a variety of places. You aren't forced to use a single storefront that is run by the publisher and from which they get a cut of all sales and resales. Also, there's the fact that the Magic cards are actual physical objects that you retain possession of. Video game EULAs these days basically say you don't even own the game itself.

    The secondary market in Magic doesn't reduce the cost if you want to play the entire game, as opposed to, say, one color.
    The economics of the thing mean that the individual prices of the playable rares are going to cover the cost of a box of cards, and then some.
    And at release, the cost of good rares will spike as everyone wants them, so getting an immediate deck for play within Standard Constructed tournaments is going to cost a premium.

    The fact that the original, official format is also the 2-year cycle of Standard legal sets, means that you also don't own the cards, just as much as Hearthstone adjusting the text directly on its digital cards means you don't own the cards.
    If you can't play them in the official tournaments, then the cards are worth far less.

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Unlike lootboxes for a digital game occupied by transient players that might eventually collapse...i still use magic cards from when i was 12 because we can build out our house decks so when i'm chilling with friends i can just throw down a game of magic with everyone.
    This is a function of the card itself, not the method of acquisition.

    You could also make the same argument that any lootbox game like FUT/Hearthstone that allows you play local multiplayer or vs AI will allow you to use the cards long after the internet multiplayer scene dies, and I don't feel that holds water.


    If the unthinkable happens, blizzard collapses, or for some reason dumps hearthstone, and they stop supporting it and operating systems and device platforms advance and the game ends up in the inoperable dustpan... you got nothing. All the cards you gambled to get like tears in the rain. Eventually just due to technical advance or collapse you can lose the thing you paid for. Literally in 100 years, when we're in the wastelands of 2118, I could still have magic decks from the 1900s in my ruck sack to pass the hours. The players someone gambled to get in FUT? Kinda totally useless as soon as the next FUT comes out.

    This is true of video games themselves. Old games need lots of work to get running again, online play probably won't work and if it's a multiplayer game it often just won't wotk

    If abandoned though hearthstone is likely to continue on through private servers at least

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
    discrider
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    discrider wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    What exactly is your point here about the cost of playing Magic?

    That it is a similar amount of expense to other lootbox games, if not more so due to its card treadmill.

    Except you can purchase Magic cards from a variety of places. You aren't forced to use a single storefront that is run by the publisher and from which they get a cut of all sales and resales. Also, there's the fact that the Magic cards are actual physical objects that you retain possession of. Video game EULAs these days basically say you don't even own the game itself.

    The secondary market in Magic doesn't reduce the cost if you want to play the entire game, as opposed to, say, one color.
    The economics of the thing mean that the individual prices of the playable rares are going to cover the cost of a box of cards, and then some.
    And at release, the cost of good rares will spike as everyone wants them, so getting an immediate deck for play within Standard Constructed tournaments is going to cost a premium.

    The fact that the original, official format is also the 2-year cycle of Standard legal sets, means that you also don't own the cards, just as much as Hearthstone adjusting the text directly on its digital cards means you don't own the cards.
    If you can't play them in the official tournaments, then the cards are worth far less.

    That's not how ownership works? It doesn't matter what Wizards of the Coast says is and is not tornament legal, I can still keep all the cards I have purchased.

    DarkPrimus on
    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    ElvenshaeAridholdestroyah87MegaMekSleepMan in the MistsForarabotkinmilskiMatevKristmas Kthulhu
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Unlike lootboxes for a digital game occupied by transient players that might eventually collapse...i still use magic cards from when i was 12 because we can build out our house decks so when i'm chilling with friends i can just throw down a game of magic with everyone.
    This is a function of the card itself, not the method of acquisition.

    You could also make the same argument that any lootbox game like FUT/Hearthstone that allows you play local multiplayer or vs AI will allow you to use the cards long after the internet multiplayer scene dies, and I don't feel that holds water.


    If the unthinkable happens, blizzard collapses, or for some reason dumps hearthstone, and they stop supporting it and operating systems and device platforms advance and the game ends up in the inoperable dustpan... you got nothing. All the cards you gambled to get like tears in the rain. Eventually just due to technical advance or collapse you can lose the thing you paid for. Literally in 100 years, when we're in the wastelands of 2118, I could still have magic decks from the 1900s in my ruck sack to pass the hours. The players someone gambled to get in FUT? Kinda totally useless as soon as the next FUT comes out.

    This is true of video games themselves. Old games need lots of work to get running again, online play probably won't work and if it's a multiplayer game it often just won't wotk

    If abandoned though hearthstone is likely to continue on through private servers at least

    I have also seen less 'people playing with dead card games that they bought from when there were players', and more 'people buying cheap boxes of dead card game cards to play a quick once-off draft in this dead system'.
    So I'm dubious that having physical possession of a game has any value if there is no one to play it.

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Unlike lootboxes for a digital game occupied by transient players that might eventually collapse...i still use magic cards from when i was 12 because we can build out our house decks so when i'm chilling with friends i can just throw down a game of magic with everyone.
    This is a function of the card itself, not the method of acquisition.

    You could also make the same argument that any lootbox game like FUT/Hearthstone that allows you play local multiplayer or vs AI will allow you to use the cards long after the internet multiplayer scene dies, and I don't feel that holds water.


    If the unthinkable happens, blizzard collapses, or for some reason dumps hearthstone, and they stop supporting it and operating systems and device platforms advance and the game ends up in the inoperable dustpan... you got nothing. All the cards you gambled to get like tears in the rain. Eventually just due to technical advance or collapse you can lose the thing you paid for. Literally in 100 years, when we're in the wastelands of 2118, I could still have magic decks from the 1900s in my ruck sack to pass the hours. The players someone gambled to get in FUT? Kinda totally useless as soon as the next FUT comes out.

    Selling individual items for digital games is shakey enough due to the transient nature of video gaming (video gaming is generally about playing the newest and shiniest games not playing the same game for 20+ year's). Putting all those items behind a gamble so that some folks spend hundreds to get an ephemeral line of data associated with their account in a game they will abandon within the decade? That's like cyberpunk dystopian nightmare fuel.

    Even with magic I can always skip the gamble and go with a pre con deck set where I know every card in the pack and can get a reasonably balanced experience out of it. I don't necessarily need to gamble to play the game. In most of these lootbox scenarios (as far as I can tell) the only option is gambling either with real money or with fake money you grind out in game, and they seemingly don't have a secondary market where you can sell off the high rarity items you don't plan on using to recoup your cash and allow non gamblers to just pay a moderately flat rate for an item they need/want to play at the level they desire.

    Boosters are definitely gambling. However they aren't an unavoidable and necessary component to gameplay in any way. You don't absolutely need to gamble in order to gain power in the game, there's other avenues by which to get the pieces you want for a deck that only involve gambling in the fact you are acting as the payout on the secondary market.
    "Well what if you lose your Magic cards in a fire?" This isn't a productive line of discussion to go down.

    The entire point of what I'm saying is that selling Magic cards via booster packs has no bearing on whether they're around when Mad Max becomes reality. The same is true of any online game that you can use the game content (that you got via lootboxes) in without needing game servers to exist.

    If Magic had originally been designed to sell cards by, for example, buying 4 of every single Green card in a set for £40 and so on for each colour, you would be in just the same position with how many cards you own today as if you'd bought boosters. The same is true of Hearthstone; if they don't sell the cards via lootbox, but instead sell Arcane Dust that is used to create cards, or sell specific decks etc, players will end up with just as many cards as if they'd bought them through card packs.

    The durability of the item isn't an argument for the method of distribution.

  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Fallout is starting. Supposed screenshot of One Piece Treasure Cruise in Belgium:

    (spoilered for v-scroll)
    20180919_230458.png

    Isn't this mobile game the one that evidence came out in support of them actually changing odds to be worse for people who spend lots of money?

    Also in regards to CCG's and lootboxes...I would not shed a tear if they got caught in the crossfire. Cardboard crack isn't a cute nickname.

    camo_sig2.png
    PSN: AuthorFrost
    mageofstorm.png
    destroyah87mrondeauMegaMekJeep-EepQuidMatevshoeboxjeddy
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    Isn't this mobile game the one that evidence came out in support of them actually changing odds to be worse for people who spend lots of money?

    The fuck?

    wbBv3fj.png
    DisruptedCapitalistshrykeJeep-Eep
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    I believe that wasn't ever confirmed, but was speculation and in line with other things they did.

    https://www.reddit.com/comments/71ulgr

  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I believe that wasn't ever confirmed, but was speculation and in line with other things they did.

    https://www.reddit.com/comments/71ulgr

    Yeah, that's why I said evidence and not proof. Very strong evidence though.

    camo_sig2.png
    PSN: AuthorFrost
    mageofstorm.png
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Turns out that in unlicensed gambling, not only is it advantageous for the casino to manipulate the random number generator, it's super easy to do, and there's no government authority monitoring the process and auditing the system.

    So yes, you can assume without too many doubt that the randomness is not random, and that the process is manipulated to get you to spend more. Constantly.

    destroyah87JragghenGennenalyse RuebenLord_AsmodeusDisruptedCapitalistAegeriMadicanshrykeMan in the MistsabotkinGONG-00DoodmannElvenshaeVerminionLoisLaneDarkPrimusN1tSt4lkerTofystedethMatevHefflingV1mshoeboxjeddydispatch.o
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Turns out that in unlicensed gambling, not only is it advantageous for the casino to manipulate the random number generator, it's super easy to do, and there's no government authority monitoring the process and auditing the system.

    So yes, you can assume without too many doubt that the randomness is not random, and that the process is manipulated to get you to spend more. Constantly.

    We already know they do it the opposite way. Blizzard at least has openly talked about their system being structured to pay you out with the highest level of rarity objects after some number of pulls of the slots handle without winning one normally.

    I would be shocked if someone out there wasn't doing it in the other direction.

    destroyah87PolaritieLord_AsmodeusQuidN1tSt4lkerMatevGennenalyse RuebenHefflingshoeboxjeddy
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Turns out that in unlicensed gambling, not only is it advantageous for the casino to manipulate the random number generator, it's super easy to do, and there's no government authority monitoring the process and auditing the system.

    So yes, you can assume without too many doubt that the randomness is not random, and that the process is manipulated to get you to spend more. Constantly.

    We already know they do it the opposite way. Blizzard at least has openly talked about their system being structured to pay you out with the highest level of rarity objects after some number of pulls of the slots handle without winning one normally.

    I would be shocked if someone out there wasn't doing it in the other direction.

    I think one of the systems that caused this mess, outside of EA and battlefront 2, was a Japanese anime phone game that had a 1/64000 chance of getting a rare, then a 1/64000 of actually dropping said rare. So you needed to roll the chance to acquire the rare and then actually roll the rare on the table it was on.

    Obviously such odds are beyond ridiculous and even with the above, they were accused of further manipulating the numbers to ensure people couldn't actually get the item.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2018
    discrider wrote: »
    The outlay for Magic would be roughly a grand and a half per year, assuming you need a full set.
    And I can't imagine the outlay being much different if you just need a full set of playable rares.

    You are missing the forest for the trees.

    The minutia of what exactly one might pay for a playset of magic cards in a year is irrelevant. My point is that there are differences between physical products (like CCG packs or Baseball cards) and digital lootboxes. One is LIKE the other, but they are not identical.

    My point is that with physical cards, you can resell them. This is a massive advantage! You can buy them directly! Another massive advantage! If I want a full set (or play set) of a Magic set, I can crack hundreds or thousands of booster packs, or I can go to Ebay or StarCityGames or any number of local and online shops and buy that, in part or in full. If I want a full set of *Insert Lootbox Thing Here* I might have to buy dozens or hundreds or thousands of those lootboxes.

    Maybe some of those games include a "dusting" mechanic to let you turn extra/unwanted cards into more lootboxes or other cards. Maybe there's some trading functionality involved. But at the end of the day, as I noted, the more predatory games don't do any of that. I'm thinking of Galaxy of Heroes, or Battlefront 2 (both EA games, I'll note), where you get what is inside, you can get fucked if you don't like it, the latter has some crafting bullshit (or it did, I haven't played in months), and the former does not remotely give a shit if you're happy with the shitty contents of your shitty lootbox.

    My entire premise is that the physicality of the objects make Magic packs different from most (if not all) lootboxes in games. Whether it's because I can buy those cards online, sell them, trade them to friends, set them on fire, whatever. Depending on the game and lootbox mechanics involved, a digital lootbox mechanic might be a giant pit you throw money into with zero guarantee of getting what you want.

    I have no argument that physical 'lootbox' arrangements like Magic packs could do with a little attention, but I think contrasting them without distinction is fraught with peril. There are important differences present, and I was simply expressing that it was worth noting them.

    I wasn't, in turn, trying to pick a fight with how many thousands of dollars per year one might throw into a fire in order to stay competitive in Magic's Standard tournament cycle. Whether it's by being a pro supported by a shop that loans out top tier cards, or buying a shitload of them and reselling when it's time to rotate, these only support my premise; there is a difference, it is varied in how it applies, and it is important.

    Hence my confusion with your question. The sum involved is, again, irrelevant. Whether the player in question is spending $10,000 (because they like cracking packs) or $100 (and doing some savvy trading/selling/etc), the differences exist, and are important.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    camo_sig2.png
    PSN: AuthorFrost
    mageofstorm.png
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    I never said it wasn't.

    But the difference is there. I also used setting fire to the cards as an example. Or, I don't know, make a fashionable jacket out of unwanted commons.

    The ability to buy them off the market is a cornerstone there. If I want a Mythic "Go Fuck Yourself" card, I can drop like $100 and get one. Many lootboxes lack such options. It's an important distinction, in my eyes, to be able to skip the RNG element, even at a massive premium.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
    Aridholdestroyah87SleepLord_AsmodeusElvenshaeMan in the MistsDarkPrimusQuidMatevshoeboxjeddyAegeri
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    I think it's more just that certain things about selling physical objects ends up mitigating some of the effects of the whole gambling thing.

    I think it's a difference in degree more then kind basically.

    shryke on
    destroyah87milskiAiouaElvenshaeMegaMekmrondeaushoeboxjeddySiskaKristmas Kthulhu
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    I never said it wasn't.

    But the difference is there. I also used setting fire to the cards as an example. Or, I don't know, make a fashionable jacket out of unwanted commons.

    The ability to buy them off the market is a cornerstone there. If I want a Mythic "Go Fuck Yourself" card, I can drop like $100 and get one. Many lootboxes lack such options. It's an important distinction, in my eyes, to be able to skip the RNG element, even at a massive premium.

    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.
    The cost to buy a card secondhand will be more expensive than simply playing the odds yourself on average, assuming perfect information (which Magic provides to its players).
    The only reason the secondary market in Magic appears cheaper is that players appear content with not playing with the whole amount of game content.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.

    I wholeheartedly disagree.
    The cost to buy a card secondhand will be more expensive than simply playing the odds yourself on average, assuming perfect information (which Magic provides to its players).
    The only reason the secondary market in Magic appears cheaper is that players appear content with not playing with the whole amount of game content.

    Either you're ignoring Mythics, or there's something you might want to expand upon, because your assertion is that one can get cards in a reasonable manner through simply buying booster boxes (you originally mentioned 3 of them). My assertion is that Magic: the Gathering introduced a higher rarity explicitly to fuck with this notion. They can provide all the MaRo articles to the contrary they like, but they saw the 'chase rare' phenomenon and said 'wait, hold my beer'.

    The Secondary market MAY OR MAY NOT be cheaper, but it provides an external force that the parent company (WOTC in this case) cannot control. If I want A REALLY NICE HAT from a game with lootboxes, I might have to buy 1, or 10, or 100, or 1000, or more, and still might never get one. If I want a REALLY NICE MAGIC CARD, I could buy 1 booster, or 10, or 100, 1000, or just pay StarCityGames like $20 and get one shipped to me. Or go to Ebay. Or trade with friends. Or walk down to one of a half dozen local games shops.

    The "lootbox" quality of a pack of Magic Cards, like Schrodinger's Cat's box, is infinite in its potential until some poor bastard (me or another) opens it up and the waveform collapses.

    My point made earlier was that there are differences, it was stated specifically in contrast to a post that claimed there were no differences. You seem to be arguing against me and using points that work in my favour, so I'm now quite confused. Frankly, unless there has been a massive change in how card rarity/distribution works, you're just flat out wrong. A cursory Google search indicates that the math backs me up that you aren't guaranteed to get a complete set of *COMMONS* in a single booster box, so the notion of getting a playset of rares within 3 boxes (let alone mythics) seems farcical.

    When is the last time you actually bought a booster box of Magic cards? Because I'll admit up front that it was years ago for me, and after enough of them I realized that instead of gambling on $100 worth of boosters, I'd usually get what I wanted and more out of $100 to my favourite online shop. Which is the whole point! If I want a 'fiery cloak of awesomness and +5 to Fuck You' from a Lootbox, I *usually* have no guarantees of getting it. If I want an equivalently awesome card from a Magic set, I can just buy it. That's awesome! That's great! If more Lootbox games had measure of bypassing the RNG, I'd be considerably more amenable to them!

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
    SleepLord_AsmodeusMatev
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Blah, I had forgotten Magic added the Mythic rarity (couple per box).

    For those rares that exist 1 per pack, buying a full set through boosters is feasible, and was likely to be less expensive than the market.

    The economics of the situation would have changed with mythics, and it is highly likely that mythic prices will subsidise market rare prices, such that such box buying is no longer economical for the full set of rares.

    Depending on how meta defining mythics are, though, I would not be surprised to see them go for the full price of a box of boosters ($150) if a competitive strategy needs them to work optimally.
    Good luck if said card is not Legendary and said competitive deck can then take for copies of said card.

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    I would not at all mind seeing randomized booster packs for CCGs get labelled as gambling as well. I don't think anyone could possibly convince me that it isn't gambling for somebody to slap down twenty bucks for booster packs for week after week just to try and get a good card or two, considering how obsessively I've seen people collect those things. If Magic had to start selling its cards in known sets instead of booster packs, I guarantee they would fight it because of loss of revenue from people not having to gamble on getting cards.

    The fact that you get a physical object out of it has zero relevance to whether or not it's gambling. Real gambling can win you real money, it doesn't make it not gambling just because you can get something you can hold from it.

    Ninja Snarl P on
    Ketar
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Forar wrote: »
    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.My point made earlier was that there are differences, it was stated specifically in contrast to a post that claimed there were no differences. You seem to be arguing against me and using points that work in my favour, so I'm now quite confused. Frankly, unless there has been a massive change in how card rarity/distribution works, you're just flat out wrong. A cursory Google search indicates that the math backs me up that you aren't guaranteed to get a complete set of *COMMONS* in a single booster box, so the notion of getting a playset of rares within 3 boxes (let alone mythics) seems farcical.

    It seemed that 3 boxes appeared to generate enough coverage of the rares on average that you could expect 3-4 of each card at least.

    discrider on
    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I'm fine with them adding caveats to CCG card packs. I explicitly said so several times in the last few pages.

    I simply think that digital lootboxes are vastly more predatory due to the immediacy of acquisition (ie; being able to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on them instantly in the comfort of my own home, or even on my phone anywhere in the world), the Vegas style lightshow that often accompanies them, and the hidden elements present in their marketing. Galaxy of Heroes will sell 'character upgrade packs' that guarantee "5 to 330 shards" for a character (330 is the max any given character needs to achieve their maximum rarity). Guess what most people get? If you guessed "5?" you are entirely right! But nowhere on that listing does it say that your odds of getting 330 shards are somewhere around those of winning the lottery, whereas even if it's not written on the box, a Magic Booster Pack has a roughly 1 in 8 chance of having A mythic rare in it (which specific one being further RNG, but again, the option to bypass both of these RNGs make them less egregious in my mind, but I respect that this is a subjective matter).

    I am entirely onboard with both getting some shade thrown their way, but my point, as noted before, was that very few people will abuse Magic booster packs the way that people have and continue to abuse digital lootboxes. Very few people will spend $1,000 on buying crates worth of Magic booster boxes, but you can find people throwing similar sums away opening digital lootboxes for a number of popular games (Fortnite and Battlefront 2 come to mind, I'm sure there are more).

    Fine, take a stab at WOTC's bullshit, my whooooole point was that EA's bullshit is leaps and bounds more worthy of ire and regulation. If WOTC gets swept up in that, no skin off my back, as I've said, I haven't bought a booster in years, but in terms of severity, I think EA's bullshit is substantially more egregious.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    I never said it wasn't.

    But the difference is there. I also used setting fire to the cards as an example. Or, I don't know, make a fashionable jacket out of unwanted commons.

    The ability to buy them off the market is a cornerstone there. If I want a Mythic "Go Fuck Yourself" card, I can drop like $100 and get one. Many lootboxes lack such options. It's an important distinction, in my eyes, to be able to skip the RNG element, even at a massive premium.

    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.
    The cost to buy a card secondhand will be more expensive than simply playing the odds yourself on average, assuming perfect information (which Magic provides to its players).
    The only reason the secondary market in Magic appears cheaper is that players appear content with not playing with the whole amount of game content.

    Actually, this isn't necessarily true. My understanding is that a lot of the secondhand market stock comes from packs opened by stores - e.g. at wholesale prices. This creates a very healthy margin between their cost to get by opening and the public's.

    Steam: Polaritie
    3DS: 0473-8507-2652
    Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
    PSN: AbEntropy
    milskiForarLord_AsmodeusElvenshaeIlpalaMatevHahnsoo1HefflingAegeri
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    I bet you could easily find Magic players who have sunk that much into chasing Mythics, if Mythics are worth playing at all.

    And yeah, my math for 3 boxes doesn't work out, but the underlying argument is the market will sell individual cards such that they cover the cost of opening a box plus profit, unless the seller is not aware of their Mythics true rarity.
    Of course a player playing the odds for Mythics is not going to work because of their rarity, but playing the odds for Rares seemed to and made that cheaper than going to the market.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    I never said it wasn't.

    But the difference is there. I also used setting fire to the cards as an example. Or, I don't know, make a fashionable jacket out of unwanted commons.

    The ability to buy them off the market is a cornerstone there. If I want a Mythic "Go Fuck Yourself" card, I can drop like $100 and get one. Many lootboxes lack such options. It's an important distinction, in my eyes, to be able to skip the RNG element, even at a massive premium.

    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.
    The cost to buy a card secondhand will be more expensive than simply playing the odds yourself on average, assuming perfect information (which Magic provides to its players).
    The only reason the secondary market in Magic appears cheaper is that players appear content with not playing with the whole amount of game content.

    Actually, this isn't necessarily true. My understanding is that a lot of the secondhand market stock comes from packs opened by stores - e.g. at wholesale prices. This creates a very healthy margin between their cost to get by opening and the public's.

    Prices are still going to be based on demand immediately after releases, which should inflate card values over and above that store margin...

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    The secondary market for Mtg is controlled by wholesalers opening a massive amount of product at bulk prices and selling it on razor thin margins. Any argument that it's cheaper to crack booster boxes for what you want is massively incorrect.

    The fact that Magic cards are physical and that people can interact with the system by buying cards from wholesalers does have a significant impact on how predatory the system can be, because there is limited potential for WOTC to directly manipulate players at the point of sale/during gameplay and there is much lower risk of somebody addictively chasing certain cards (because they can go buy the card instead).

    This does not mean the system itself is good or that packs of cards aren't still predatory to some extent, but to the extent they are predatory there are multiple backstops to prevent them from being ungodly shitty and manipulative in a way that doesn't exist for other lootboxes.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
    ForarLord_AsmodeusElvenshaemrondeauabotkinMatevGennenalyse RuebenAegeriKristmas Kthulhu
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    It seemed that 3 boxes appeared to generate enough coverage of the rares on average that you could expect 3-4 of each card at least.

    A Magic Booster Box contains 36 packs. A "small" set contains around 42 rares. You need more than 4 booster boxes just to get that many rares, let alone an appropriate spread of them to have "3-4 of each".

    Because let me tell you, sometimes you get lucky, and sometimes you get like 7 of one Rare and 1 of another. The distribution is not perfectly even, and even if it was, that won't hold up across multiple boxes from potentially multiple print runs.

    A single Booster box for a current set is around $100, so $300-400+ just to get a playset of rares (if one is lucky). Or, I could go to a site and spend that much or less to get a full playset of Commons, Uncommons, Rares, and a few choice Mythics, guaranteed, no hassle.

    And yes, even if you didn't get a full playset in those 3-4 boxes, you could... TRADE THE EXTRAS! Something that I've explicitly called out many Lootbox arrangements for lacking.

    That's my point; physical products have elements in play that ablate some of the more frustrating aspects of lootboxes! It doesn't negate them entirely, but they are a factor. If physical CCGs were improved by having regulations applied to digital CCGs/lootboxes, I wouldn't shed a single tear, but I don't see how they're perfectly equatable when there are so many mechanics in place that don't always exist in the other (and intentionally so).

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    discrider wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    I don't agree with the idea that you can sell physical cards is enough to be a point of separation. Because in order to sell something of any value you still needed to be lucky, which means you needed to buy card packs, which with given odds probably wasn't just a single lucky pull.

    The aspect of gambling is still present.

    I never said it wasn't.

    But the difference is there. I also used setting fire to the cards as an example. Or, I don't know, make a fashionable jacket out of unwanted commons.

    The ability to buy them off the market is a cornerstone there. If I want a Mythic "Go Fuck Yourself" card, I can drop like $100 and get one. Many lootboxes lack such options. It's an important distinction, in my eyes, to be able to skip the RNG element, even at a massive premium.

    The ability to buy them off the market is irrelevant.
    The cost to buy a card secondhand will be more expensive than simply playing the odds yourself on average, assuming perfect information (which Magic provides to its players).
    The only reason the secondary market in Magic appears cheaper is that players appear content with not playing with the whole amount of game content.

    Actually, this isn't necessarily true. My understanding is that a lot of the secondhand market stock comes from packs opened by stores - e.g. at wholesale prices. This creates a very healthy margin between their cost to get by opening and the public's.

    Prices are still going to be based on demand immediately after releases, which should inflate card values over and above that store margin...

    You are wrong.

    E: there is a brief period after the release of some sets that are highly in demand where cracking a box might have positive EV, but that generally lasts a week at most, and is more saying "you might make money if you immediately flip the cards for full market value"; it is still cheaper to buy singles to actually make a deck.

    E2: The reason for this is that wholesalers are opening cards for... I think mid to high $2.XX per pack, while players are opening for anywhere from $3/pack for a box to $4/pack at regular pack pricing.

    milski on
    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
    destroyah87ForarLord_AsmodeusElvenshaeMatevAegeri
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Ok.
    Frankly I was only in for the one block that had my keyword in its title.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    I bet you could easily find Magic players who have sunk that much into chasing Mythics, if Mythics are worth playing at all.

    And yeah, my math for 3 boxes doesn't work out, but the underlying argument is the market will sell individual cards such that they cover the cost of opening a box plus profit, unless the seller is not aware of their Mythics true rarity.
    Of course a player playing the odds for Mythics is not going to work because of their rarity, but playing the odds for Rares seemed to and made that cheaper than going to the market.

    To address the amount of money people have sunk into Mythics: It would take a very bizarre level of player enfranchisement to spend Gacha-game whale amounts of money on chasing mythic rare cards*. You'd need somebody who was playing enough to really want a playset of cards for a specific purpose, yet not playing in competitive events (where you'd rapidly notice, people are selling massive amounts of singles) or buying from/playing events from a FLGS (because that game store would probably suggest buying singles, which are higher margin for the store itself).

    It's certainly possible, but again, the nature of the way MTG works means that practically I find it a lot harder to believe somebody bought 30 boxes of Dominaria to get a playset of every card he wanted than somebody spent $3000 on a Gacha game to get the triple red-banner platinum Plus Ultra limited edition hero pull.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
    ForarLord_AsmodeusmrondeauabotkinMatev
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Turns out that in unlicensed gambling, not only is it advantageous for the casino to manipulate the random number generator, it's super easy to do, and there's no government authority monitoring the process and auditing the system.

    So yes, you can assume without too many doubt that the randomness is not random, and that the process is manipulated to get you to spend more. Constantly.

    We already know they do it the opposite way. Blizzard at least has openly talked about their system being structured to pay you out with the highest level of rarity objects after some number of pulls of the slots handle without winning one normally.

    I would be shocked if someone out there wasn't doing it in the other direction.

    Such manipulation would be visible eventually. Aggregation of player data is the ultimate statistical analysis, for example there is data on hundreds of thousands of hearthstone packs being opened, if the rate was non-uniform that would be visible

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    As a thought experiment:
    • Wizards of the Coast is able to place a tracker on every single physical MTG card
    • This tracker is tied to a singular owner at any given time
    • Transfer of card ownership must be approved by WotC (likely with a fee attached)
    • In official tournaments, players can only use cards tied to themselves
    • WotC can revoke "ownership" and wipe a card's tracker at any time, for any reason they see fit (essentially making that card "dead" for official play)

    Assuming all the logistical and problematic scenarios are dealt with (e.g., "what happens when someone dies?"), how is this different from Hearthstone?

    I'd imagine that you can still play with your friends and in amateur tournaments. And you still have the physical card regardless of what WotC says. Is that enough?

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    As a thought experiment:
    • Wizards of the Coast is able to place a tracker on every single physical MTG card
    • This tracker is tied to a singular owner at any given time
    • Transfer of card ownership must be approved by WotC (likely with a fee attached)
    • In official tournaments, players can only use cards tied to themselves
    • WotC can revoke "ownership" and wipe a card's tracker at any time, for any reason they see fit (essentially making that card "dead" for official play)

    Assuming all the logistical and problematic scenarios are dealt with (e.g., "what happens when someone dies?"), how is this different from Hearthstone?

    I'd imagine that you can still play with your friends and in amateur tournaments. And you still have the physical card regardless of what WotC says. Is that enough?

    It makes it worse, but as they are physical objects they're still a step up from the digital loot. You still own them, can play with them, throw them at people, use them for kindling, etc.

    As far as I'm concerned this is in the same category as drugs. Caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, weed, and heroin are all drugs, and they all have different levels of laws and regulations applied to them based on the specifics of the harm/benefit of using them. Baseball cards, MTG cards, digital CCG cards, and the various video game loot boxes are all effectively gambling, but that doesn't mean that one-size-fits-all legislation is the solution.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    ElvenshaeForarMatev
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    As a thought experiment:
    • Wizards of the Coast is able to place a tracker on every single physical MTG card
    • This tracker is tied to a singular owner at any given time
    • Transfer of card ownership must be approved by WotC (likely with a fee attached)
    • In official tournaments, players can only use cards tied to themselves
    • WotC can revoke "ownership" and wipe a card's tracker at any time, for any reason they see fit (essentially making that card "dead" for official play)

    Assuming all the logistical and problematic scenarios are dealt with (e.g., "what happens when someone dies?"), how is this different from Hearthstone?

    I'd imagine that you can still play with your friends and in amateur tournaments. And you still have the physical card regardless of what WotC says. Is that enough?

    Baseball cards, MTG cards, digital CCG cards,
    Skill-testers, those collectible plastic toys, Pogs, Bitcoin

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
    Oh hey! A knife!
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Bitcoin? It's a stupid investment, but it's not gambling. You buy a bitcoin, you get a bitcoin. It's not like you buy a spin on the bitcoin machine and it gives you a random quantity of bitcoins.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    ElvenshaeForarThawmusMatevGennenalyse RuebenMan in the MistsKristmas Kthulhu
Sign In or Register to comment.