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The Ethics of Raising Children in an Online World [Online viewing habits and Streaming]
Romantic Undead
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hi guys!
I am the father of a soon-to-be 4 year old girl.
As with many other parents of young children, I think a lot about how to expose them to our age's online environment. What do I expose them to? How do I police them? How do I know what sources of content to trust? How much online freedom is too much?
As of now, my girl has not yet learned how to operate our devices completely independently of us, but the day is fast approaching when she will. Some day, she'll want a digital device of her own. Eventually, she'll want to peruse online entertainment in places where we cannot police her. How do we as parents prepare ourselves, and our children, for that eventuality? How do we prepare children to communicate with strangers online safely, and how do we prepare them for the potential toxicity and virulence that appears online? In other words, how can we teach them to be responsible internauts?
Also, I wanted to touch on streaming and vlogging for children.
As many of you may know, child vloggers have become quite popular, with some having become millionaires doing so.
To whit:
https://youtu.be/T10f-ekCZbU
My daughter is herself one of Ryan's fans, asking regularly to watch his videos by name. How should I answer if she asks me if we can do the same things as Ryan does? I believe my daughter is pretty darn cute and clever, and I can't say I'm not enticed by the prospect of being able to make a living spending time with her and filming her for the world to see, but is that wise?
Would you consider doing the same with your child? Let me know what you think!
I am the father of a soon-to-be 4 year old girl.
As with many other parents of young children, I think a lot about how to expose them to our age's online environment. What do I expose them to? How do I police them? How do I know what sources of content to trust? How much online freedom is too much?
As of now, my girl has not yet learned how to operate our devices completely independently of us, but the day is fast approaching when she will. Some day, she'll want a digital device of her own. Eventually, she'll want to peruse online entertainment in places where we cannot police her. How do we as parents prepare ourselves, and our children, for that eventuality? How do we prepare children to communicate with strangers online safely, and how do we prepare them for the potential toxicity and virulence that appears online? In other words, how can we teach them to be responsible internauts?
Also, I wanted to touch on streaming and vlogging for children.
As many of you may know, child vloggers have become quite popular, with some having become millionaires doing so.
To whit:
https://youtu.be/T10f-ekCZbUMy daughter is herself one of Ryan's fans, asking regularly to watch his videos by name. How should I answer if she asks me if we can do the same things as Ryan does? I believe my daughter is pretty darn cute and clever, and I can't say I'm not enticed by the prospect of being able to make a living spending time with her and filming her for the world to see, but is that wise?
Would you consider doing the same with your child? Let me know what you think!
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Last Christmas we purchased a Kindle Fire for the oldest, but didn't actually give it to him until around June I think. He still barely knows how to use it, and we've got it locked down to where the only apps he can even open are PBS Kids and NickJr.
The oldest started Kindergarden this year, and the teacher suggested we start using some sort of educational game thing, like ABC Mouse, ABCya or Starfall. We've used them a little bit so far, but not a whole lot.
We actually had to let him starting using a laptop w/mouse, as that's what they use at school. He'd never used a mouse before
I'm a big fan of the parental controls on the Fire, where I can pick and choose which apps are accessible to the kids. They can't even access the app store to download new things.
At some point we'll have to give them more freedom, but 6 and 4 is not that time IMO.
But I could start to see the "danger zone" when the oldest started guessing the password to unlock the Fire. I think he had 4/6 numbers correct
As of right now the only online content the kids get is: PBS Kids games (tablet or phone), NickJr movies/shows (tablet and TV), ABC Mouse edu games (tablet) and ABCya edu games.
If their grandmother is around, she lets them play other kid games on her phone.
Step 2: Talk to your kid about it.
Step 3: Make a habit of talking about what they watch with them (and not just by freaking out about it)
Step 4: Lock down what you can, but understand that it will not work.
They will encounter things one way or another, so you need to have an open dialogue going ASAP. You need to be able to explain to a kid *why* watching NAZI tentacle vore is bad for them, and not just forbid it.
qua safety I think you pretty much have to trust that your child understands like they do about irl. perhaps adjust your message with specific online scenarios, but predators and just sucky people employ the same tactics offline as on.
I don't have many concrete facts, but the gist is there are some bad, bad, BAD videos out there that look and sound like harmless kids animation. The videos are of popular kids characters as babies doing stuff like getting drunk on beer thier dad left in the table. One of them trips, the bottle breaks and the character has a bloody wound.
I've heard they get through child mode filters on phones and tablets, but I do not have credible evidence of this. They can easily get past parents who half listen and glance at what their children watch. I admit I am guilty of this sometimes. I only found out about through Reddit. Thankfully my children have not been exposed to this crap.
Even if they did, I feel confident they would have told mom or I. We did what Incenjucar did and talked with out kids about what is appropriate and not appropriate. The internet is full of pitfalls. Best explain to your children what to do before they find one, because they will.
Here's a good video on the subject
I like the idea of teaching kids that computers and handheld devices are tools, more than they are toys. As far as using it for education goes, it's important to teach that it's a great way to get information when you cross-reference it properly, but that doesn't make you smart. Smart is understanding and applying that information when called for. That said though, pocket calculator kicks every math teachers' ass and they (the teachers) just have to deal with it.
Using the internet is absolutely a monitor situation. I don't know any specifics but you can get tools to lock down a computer or a login to that computer as far as internet access goes. If you're hardcore enough you can use a browser's built-in blocker to manually toss shit you don't want your kids to see. But that's all on the 'automation' route; it's probably better to be present when a child is learning how to use the internet. That way when they have questions, you're there to answer, and otherwise provide guidance. It's work, I know. When I was a kid, there were some times set aside in school to learn about the early internet and what it meant. That was in the days where "hypertext link" was used instead of just saying "link." It was instructional in a classroom environment, and thus monitored, but that's what's needed I think.
On the entertainment side, just like with regular TV you want to screen what's out there. I'm wary of independently run shows like on YouTube and such. There's more professional things being produced that have a lot of value and you can get them through other services you may already have (Netflix, Hulu, PBS, etc).
Screens and games are fine, provided the child is engaged with an activity. Junior programming, art, games, all that stuff doesn't really hurt much either way.
But Social Media? ESPESCIALLY on portable devices is something that adult brains can barely handle, let alone children.
My advice? As both a parent and someone who has tried to research this a lot? An absolute ban on all social media for as long as you can possibly achieve it. Talk to your school to get it (and smartphones) banned at school. When you must introduce it, due to the scale of whining reaching catastrophic levels, insist that the child demonstrate a positive relationship with text messaging for like, 12 months.
In terms of devices, almost all the advice I've read is that tablets and portable devices are the enemy. Fixed consoles, computers etc are your friend, as they exist only in a certain place. Of course, this means you need to avoid your kids seeing you use the laptops etc as much as possible.
I wouldn't worry too much about 'bad content'. You should certainly try to police it, but your kid seeing a video of Elsa chopping off a mans head or some random swearing, is something not that much different from the time you snuck into an r rated move at 11. Or when you stayed up late to watch terminator 2 when you were 8. It's been shown that kids are VERY resilient to violent imagery etc. It's something humans have been dealing with for millenia. Not to say I'm not going to try to police it, but I know when I was growing up I saw all kinds of horrible nonsense and talked about it all the time with my friends. And the same has been true for years.
So spend 100% of your effort trying in vain to keep your kid of social media. Because its AWFUL for them.
First of all, she grew up without any problems, she is happy has a great social life, etc.
She was always interested in computers and I was interested in her knowing about computers, but I never really introduced her to social media, she got her first facebook account at around 13-14yo because she wanted to join a group that her classmates made.
But since a VERY early age, I taught her the offline ways of using a computer, instead of hooking her to a youtube channel, I got her some games that she would enjoy, like Sims and some horse riding game saga.
I taught her how to install the games and their updates/upgrades. But I never thought it was necesary for her to go online and have free reign, unsupervised on a search engine as a toddler.
I think her mother and I did a good gob raising her, teaching her about safety and morals so by the time she was old enough that she needed a smartphone, and social media to communicate with her peers, she had the tools to use the services responsably.
I dont think theres any other way, if I had another child, I would not trust some software or online platform to filter the contents for me, and no ammount of peer pressure will convince me that a 4yo or a 10 year old needs to have online presence to have a fulfilling childhood.
But, like I said, my daughter is a young adult now so I dont know if it qualifies as "these days" anymore.
Statistics are tough here, due to how many poor children there are in the US who just can't afford a phone, but the highly depressing 'average' is around 10. Which means it is younger for the children of wealthy parents.
There are recruiting pipelines that white supremacists and religious fundamentalists use to funnel new comers into their fold. The Libertarian/Conspiracy -> Stormfront/Alt-Right pipeline is a well known example. Islamic prayer videos -> Al Qaeda/ISIS recruitment is another.
Young Muslims being radicalized on the internet were the first noticeable demographic wave of this occurring, but everyone's children are vulnerable.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Honestly its my opinion that 'children' shouldn't be online exchanging ideas and opinions, other than in VERY well moderated spaces. Face to face interaction is really what children need for developing their thought structure.
If it isn't an out and out whitelisted OS created by a cult it's very easy to get around.
If your school has internet kids know how to get around it's filters. Libraries and other kids with internet also exist, so often they won't need to.
A cynical part of me can't help but think that maybe that's not such a bad thing. God knows I worked my way around a few filters and lockouts in my formative years... but social media wasn't really a thing yet so...
There's one called covenanteyes that is practically malware. Takes over the user account and blocks damn near everything. And you can't uninstall it without going through the company unless you want to wipe the computer.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
I don't agree with this. You definitely don't need to engage in constructive dialogue with a 6yr old regarding your internet rules (or any other rules in your home), because
1: if the why is longer than a sentence, they won't grasp it
2: you're in charge, it's not a debate, and their opinion is literally irrelevant
3: if you can't understand why yourself, and digest that to a one-sentence rule, it might be worth re-examining the rule anyway
4: the reality is that you aren't cooler than the internet, so your reasons are mostly not going to hold much power for a child regardless of what they are.
5: you can't examine everything to see if it meets finely grained criteria, so a general blanket rule is needed. Also, a general ban is easier to explain.
Getting to grow up watching YouTube is a parental shortcut. Raising kids is hard and takes up your time for the next 15-20 years, and every shortcut has its costs and benefits.
Consider simply not allowing internet usage without active sharing and accompaniment until age 10ish.
Lol teens.
Try 3rd grade, dude. By the time she's in her teens there won't be a not-smartphone, assuming we still even use these things in a decade.
You have your work cut out for you. Not to mention that old phones are a dime a dozen now and they all get WiFi even with no SIM. The secret school wifi password will be known by the whole student body by week 3.
They interviewed the people running this site on NPR (Although I can't seem to find the interview in a quick search.) Basically enough people pledge to not give smartphones to their kids in a local community and there is less pressure on everyone to get the phones because everyone else has them. Your kids do not become Luddite social pariahs.
https://www.waituntil8th.org/
Even if smartphones are cheap and getting cheaper, elementary school kids don't have money or the ability to travel independently.
There was an article in the Washington Post the other week about the differing policies of phone use in school (specifically in the DC area obviously).
There seemed to a universal thing against having them in Elementary Schools. Most of the article was about having them at lunch time in high schools. Some allow them, some don't.
My kid's elementary school specifically says "no phones", unless there's a specific need for one. So it's a case by case basis.
The funniest comment was about how some high school lunch periods are almost silent because everyone is on their phone in some capacity.
As for knowing the school password, I would want all the kids on the school's wifi. As then you can monitor what everyone is doing.
I dont fully agree with the blanket ban "because I say so" aproach. You need to explain and teach the child why, because no matter how strict you are, your child will eventually need to make a choice, or a few years down the line will actively challenge your BS rules. Because without a rationale, those are BS rules that fall apart the second you take your eyes off of your daughter/son.
Kids have to able to question rules, and as long as your rules are fair and serve a purpose, you as a parent should be able to explain them why those rules are in place.
If I ever have kids, I'd definitely go for a flip phone once they get to around that age, and try to explain why smartphones can be incredibly dangerous/expensive if mishandled.
Working at a school in a well-off neighbourhood in Sweden:
Q: How ubiquitous are they at school?
A: Kids start getting smartphones in 2nd grade (age 8-9), by grade 4 (age 10) practically all of them have them. However our school has a policy that until Junior high they're not allowed to use them in school (and even then only on breaks) except as a tool in supervised circumstances. Personally I view smartphones as poison for minors, but considering that they have assigned chromebooks from grade 4 and onwards...not much I can do.
Q: Peer pressure?
A: Depending on how well-off your neighbourhood is, from "significant" to "fucking massive".
My general level of advice is:
1. Until she's 6, any activities on the computer or tablet are activities you do together.
2. For the first few years of school, any activities on a computer or tablet is done with you in the same room.
3. Block youtube until she's 10+. I've seen a pretty strong correlation between unrestricted youtube access and a negative effect on pretty much every social meter. Language, behavior towards friends, bullying, behavior towards teachers etc. The first few years of school is when you learn how to behave and interact with others around their age. A lot of popular youtubers are horrible people, and kids that age are not equipped to understand why someone can be popular and still a horrible person. Positive attention is like their number one measurement of how they're supposed to behave.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
I don't intend to give my daughter a smartphone for a while but she's rapidly approaching an age and maturity where she can be left alone at home, but my concern is that we don't have a landline so the decision on a cell phone may be made for me here soon.
Maybe just outright block Youtube entirely til they're in junior high.
I think we agree here actually, and it gets into more general parenting philosophy. Our method was, at that young age up to Kindergarden:
1) these are the rules, the end.
I truly believe there's no upside in discussing the reasoning behind seat belts with a 5yr old child. Likewise, trying to explain to your preschooler why Nazis are evil is a pathway to madness and night terrors.
In elementary school
1) These are the rules
2) after you follow the rule, you can ask why it's a rule and we'll tell you.
2a) not before you follow - after.
3) your opinion about the answer doesn't change the rule. You're free to not like rules, but they aren't changing.
In middle school:
1) These are the new rules
2) after you follow the rule, you can ask why it's a rule and we'll tell you.
2a) not before you follow - after.
3) your opinion about the answer doesn't change the rule. If you have an actual logical reason why we should change or make exceptions, let's talk about that after you follow the rule.
in high school:
1) These are the new rules!
2) after you follow the rule, you can ask why it's a rule and we'll tell you.
2a) not before you follow - after.
3) rules are negotiable based on circumstance.
4) breaking rules costs you negotiating capital
Critical to this is the idea that your rules can't be bullshit. Whether you tell them the reason or not, there needs to be one. The why isn't always important, healthy, or even safe to communicate, but it needs to exist and it needs to be examined and understood by the parents or the kids will absolutely hone in on the flaws and break down your authority completely.
I mean, this is not taking about some theoretical bullshit rules, this is talking about the proven fact that access to social media and smartphones and overall unsupervised Internet usage harms minors and what to do about it. Wouldn't want my kid to be the next suicide statistic caused by cyber-bulling, for starters.
My only comment there would be that for a lot of children they would be capable of crafting their 'high school rules' with you. Some of my friends have done that with their more responsible kids. Sat down at the table and spent 3 hours discussing what the rules are, what they should be, and why. But, thats more of a cheat for kids who wouldn't really need rules right now anyway. Kids who aren't pushing the boundaries now are often less likely to be lured into pushing at them if they put them there. But thats very much down to the kid.
For example, when I was in high school I was aware that I was governed by the law, and had to help my parents. But beyond that, I had no rules. I had no rules because my parents knew I needed no rules, as I was a well behaved kid who needed to be encouraged to push boundaries, not stopped from knocking them down.
But yes, social media is poison. Smartphones the same. A child who asks 'why can't I have a smartphone for my 8th birthday' should be treated the same as one who asked to drink a bottle of bleach. The rules are there, and they are strict. Social media and smartphones are dangerous for you and will hurt you.
Also, making a habit of laying down arbitrary (to the kid) rules and refusing to discuss them in good faith is a great way to poison your relationship with the child. If you present yourself to them as nothing more than a contextless obstacle, then all they're ever going to want to do is circumvent you, because that's the only way one can relate to an obstacle. And once that has become their idea of you, if they ever come across something upsetting in life that they need help with, they won't come to you, because they've learned that you're more likely to yell at them and get them in trouble than actually talk to them and offer help. In the worst case they won't feel safe talking to ANYBODY and it can really mess them up. And I don't mean just about any one topic I mean in general.
That's pretty much what happened to me, and it really didn't take a whole lot to send me down that path (although admittedly I was in particularly fragile circumstances to begin with).
Because enforcing a block on access to social media or smartphones is probably going to be the toughest challenge you'll face in your entire career as a parent, and "You're not ready to be on the internet" is not an argument that is going to work, even if it's the truth.
The worst case scenario is one where you ban social media, at age 10 they decide that you're an idiot and your rules are stupid too and from now on your rules will be circumvented at every possible opportunity.
There WILL be kids like that in your childs school, and if your rules don't make more sense than the temptations and pressure of their social reality in school, then this is going to be your own personal Waterloo (or I guess Leipzig if we want our metaphor to be 100%).
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
No wonder homeschooling is on the rise on the conservative side of the aisle.
Practically every school agrees that social media is harmful for children. I have never worked at a school where social media has been accepted on school grounds for anything below Junior high (12+) and in some cases banned in Junior high as well. The problem is that a large percentage of parents don't agree, or don't enforce the rules on their side.
A schools ability to enforce the rules ends at the schools boundaries.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
maybe if spool17 signs up to the forums in January (we don't let them come into a space where Belasco and I behave as adults until they're 18) we can get him to comment as well!
it's really not going to matter what the school rules are. At our youngest's high school, they have a $10 fee to get your phone back if a teacher sees it out but regardless of that, the place is awash in spare phones you can borrow and use to get on the "private" wifi reserved for teachers to do all the social media stuff you don't want them to, in blatant contravention of the school rules.
It's not going to matter what the school's policy is because the kids are going to circumvent it, individually and as a collective working against authority, as much and as often as they can manage.
schools no longer have the ability to enforce this rule anywhere, except unevenly and with all the attendant bias you'd expect (i.e. minorities and "problem kids" get the evil eye, honor roll students can openly text each other in AP history and no one cares).