I kind of feel like a game just needs to pick its difficulty and mainly stick with it. Multiple difficulties causes so many more problems extensively covered in the other thread, and only solves having harder content. The wild fluctuations in difficulty have always been sticking points at various points in wow. Like sunwell being a giant leap, cataclysm just being brutal, to mop not being too hard until mythic just wrecked people. Then mythic wod had people stacking fucking moonkin for flap...
I get people want to do challenging stuff, but when 90% of players are content playing god of war and button mashing and getting pretty effects, it just doesnt make sense to cram in dark souls to the mix. I honestly just think if a game isnt providing enough challenge, go play another game.
The only fight that was straight up broken in 10 man was lich king and yogg 0 lights, at least as far as I recall.
My group had stopped at that point, but I recall yogg 0 lights taking a long long time to die with 10 man gear only, and LK didn't go down until the passive icecrown buff was at 15% or so. The valkyrie on lich king was a nightmare 10 man if it snagged one of your dps, since that was huge reduction in damage potential.
I'm unsubbed and my game time runs out in April, so I doubt I even play whenever Classic releases. But I was thinking if I did ever play Classic, I'd be a Dwarf Priest for that sweet sweet fear ward.
Its always the same conundrum for me. Either play a healer which is the role i like playing, and go into BGs with shit players that cant kill anything. Or roll the dps so i can actually kill people, but never see a healer on my team. So hybrids tend to look attractive because i could go ele/resto or balance/resto. Priest is also attractive but i would want devouring plague but will probably play alliance.
I basically would solo cap the last flag in av because it was so easy for me to do it
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+1
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
edited February 2019
I really enjoyed raiding in vanilla and playing in AV so I plan on spending time in AV and doing raids for the most part. Just torn on whether I want to roll a Rogue or Warlock in vanilla. I had a 60 of both but my Rogue was my primary.
I feel like maybe I should play something else to switch it up and go out of my comfort zone.
Stragint on
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
AV was the only time PvP was fun for me. I had a blast in there. I even one on one killed my personal enemy mage in there the only time I saw him. Lots of good memories there. Not so much the other BGs.
I look forward to being able to queue for solely arathi basin or AV depending on my mood. Or just saying screw it and going to silithus or brm with some buddies. It kinda depends what my buddies decide to play for me to choose which class to play. I'll probably level 2 things which is pretty easy to keep up with at max level, and it gives some flexibility to professions and stuff.
Hth as much as ima love seeing old strat and scholo they along with tbc are not very good dungeons
Classes lacked the utility they have now to survive bad pulls and cc was the crutch they used because mages couldnt save a f up with like ring of frost for example, which is much better then wiping because you messed up the pull and its literally impossible to interupt or stun the mob because they where rare or dont work half the time
Itll be fun but some are in for a real ready check
Remember when sap would break stealth when you used it, and you could sink in 3 talent points to make it only 10% chance to break stealth and the mobs eat you? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Remember when sap would break stealth when you used it, and you could sink in 3 talent points to make it only 10% chance to break stealth and the mobs eat you? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Mmm and your cc choices are that and sheep, you can use fear but therthing wasnt in yet so enjoy your extra pulls
Remember when sap would break stealth when you used it, and you could sink in 3 talent points to make it only 10% chance to break stealth and the mobs eat you? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Mmm and your cc choices are that and sheep, you can use fear but therthing wasnt in yet so enjoy your extra pulls
A competent warlock could use curse of recklessness to "fear juggle" mobs, as well as seduction and banish if there were appropriate types.
Remember when sap would break stealth when you used it, and you could sink in 3 talent points to make it only 10% chance to break stealth and the mobs eat you? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Mmm and your cc choices are that and sheep, you can use fear but therthing wasnt in yet so enjoy your extra pulls
A competent warlock could use curse of recklessness to "fear juggle" mobs, as well as seduction and banish if there were appropriate types.
You also had Shackle Undead and hibernate. But each one only worked on like 1-2 mob types.
I think there's a lot of people who think "Vanilla" and actually remember "TBC" and just haven't realised it yet.
I'd be okay with a wrath or TBC server too
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+6
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited February 2019
I doubt it'd happen, but having each expansion playable, maybe with rolling restarts for Mists so people could see the zones that changed over time (or periodically redo events like the opening of gates of AQ on vanilla) would be ideal. Give people an option to pay to move characters up the timestream to later expansions as an extra source of revenue while they're at it.
Hth as much as ima love seeing old strat and scholo they along with tbc are not very good dungeons
Classes lacked the utility they have now to survive bad pulls and cc was the crutch they used because mages couldnt save a f up with like ring of frost for example, which is much better then wiping because you messed up the pull and its literally impossible to interupt or stun the mob because they where rare or dont work half the time
Itll be fun but some are in for a real ready check
Eh. CC is not a crutch, it's just from a slower time. WoW was Everquest, improved, and so you CC'd stuff. Personally, I preferred it. Yeah, you had to watch what abilities you used to not break it, but.....that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I loved saving the day with frost nova's in TBC as well, but I was a main tank in vanilla.
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I definitely prefer the slow and methodical approach that CC provides. Pull everything, blow all your cooldowns, and pray to god your tank is still alive in 25 seconds is not fun gameplay, nor does it provide any sort of meaningful strategic choices.
The current meta of "Go Go Go" is not fun for me. I preferred the difficulty of dungeons like Magister's Terrace, where pulls had to be done just right, and even trash posed a threat. And they didn't even have to do stupid/ridiculous crap like -affixes to make it happen. I don't like affixes either. Maybe if there were more of them, maybe if they were a bit more dynamic, and maybe if they weren't so predictable I'd like them more. As it stands now, having weekly flip flops of Fortified and Tyranical is awful, as those are two of the least interesting and least fun affixes there are. The other affixes are only slightly more interesting.
And anyway, I prefer the original difficulty curve of vanilla and TBC's dungeons, which were a lot slower paced and a lot more methodical in how you had to approach them.
I doubt it'd happen, but having each expansion playable, maybe with rolling restarts for Mists so people could see the zones that changed over time (or periodically redo events like the opening of gates of AQ on vanilla) would be ideal. Give people an option to pay to move characters up the timestream to later expansions as an extra source of revenue while they're at it.
EQ did it and it was a relatively large success.
It'd be a boon for them I think.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Pulling rattlegore trash mobs in scholo is an art form. Because that trash hit like a truck no matter what you wore.
I understand what you mean by gogogo runs, but I can say it was fun with a group you knew how they operated and you knew how hard you could push them before, 'hey, mana break.'
I broke a lot of mages, and healers of the bad habit of drinking every pull. After a couple warm-up fights to see how they used their mana, I knew how hard I could push them with chain pulls.
Watching casters learn they could drink between chain pulls if they alternated main dps or healing roles with each other was a delight. They would be in awe of running scholo or other 60 dungeons way faster than they thought possible.
I do want to run stratholme with 4 warriors and a shaman though. Id like to see how broke that time limit is.
Pulling rattlegore trash mobs in scholo is an art form. Because that trash hit like a truck no matter what you wore.
I understand what you mean by gogogo runs, but I can say it was fun with a group you knew how they operated and you knew how hard you could push them before, 'hey, mana break.'
I broke a lot of mages, and healers of the bad habit of drinking every pull. After a couple warm-up fights to see how they used their mana, I knew how hard I could push them with chain pulls.
Watching casters learn they could drink between chain pulls if they alternated main dps or healing roles with each other was a delight. They would be in awe of running scholo or other 60 dungeons way faster than they thought possible.
I do want to run stratholme with 4 warriors and a shaman though. Id like to see how broke that time limit is.
The time limit wasn't in from the start, was patched in at some point.
I do want to run stratholme with 4 warriors and a shaman though. Id like to see how broke that time limit is.
I only ran a Classic dungeon with 4 warriors and a shaman once and it was a delight.
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0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Hunters had the frost trap too. Though I think there were heavy combat restrictions on placing traps and since they had no range yet it was super hard to trap things.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Yea I know, I was able to beat it under 45minutes, but I want to know how hard we can smash it.
I can't quite recall how fast it was, but they essentially ran through the instance. I was bit sad me as shadow healing purely through vampiric embrace while our overgeared tank chainpulled was less effective than resto shaman+4 warriors.
Hunters had the frost trap too. Though I think there were heavy combat restrictions on placing traps and since they had no range yet it was super hard to trap things.
Once Distracting Shot was turned into a proper taunt, it got easier. You'd have to FD to reapply traps though.
I preferred the difficulty of dungeons like Magister's Terrace, where pulls had to be done just right, and even trash posed a threat.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that this is exactly what high M+ is.
I haven't run M+ higher than M10 because I hate it and I think it sucks.
But, I've watched some of the Mythic Invitationals, and while those people are the best of the best in the world, all I see them doing is huge pulls, invis potting past the difficult pulls, and generally playing in a very not-fun (to me) manner. And it looks exactly as I described it: a Go Go Go rush playstyle with literally no strategy other than abusing cooldowns and playing the "oh shit I hope my tank doesn't die because he pulled triple what is safe" game.
I preferred the difficulty of dungeons like Magister's Terrace, where pulls had to be done just right, and even trash posed a threat.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that this is exactly what high M+ is.
Dungeons now vs vanilla are nothing alike. If you pulled huge packs like people do now youd just die. In vanilla cc broke on damage, and not every class had an aoe stun on a one minute cooldown. Not to mention cc could be resisted as well. Yes you still have to execute the pulls correctly or you die, but the emphasis on cc vs dps and kiting/interrupts is pretty huge. They dont even compare.
I preferred the difficulty of dungeons like Magister's Terrace, where pulls had to be done just right, and even trash posed a threat.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that this is exactly what high M+ is.
Dungeons now vs vanilla are nothing alike. If you pulled huge packs like people do now youd just die. In vanilla cc broke on damage, and not every class had an aoe stun on a one minute cooldown. Not to mention cc could be resisted as well. Yes you still have to execute the pulls correctly or you die, but the emphasis on cc vs dps and kiting/interrupts is pretty huge. They dont even compare.
My M+ experience is admittedly limited, but I have yet to see any group pull huge packs unless it'll somehow improve our survivability in that area. There's lots of really small pulls with marking a specific mob that needs to be murdered and stunned and interrupted a whole bunch.
I was a fan of the proto-Mythics in MoP when they were used for mounts or transmogs. I didn't participate as I didn't like their timed nature, but I liked and appreciated the idea.
I participated in Mythic+ in Legion and somewhat enjoyed them. They were new, though. It wore off, though, and something just....bothers me about how effective it is to get loot via Mythic+.
It's not rational, I have nothing I can cite, I'm not even going to argue if someone posts after and says "Biz you idiot", something about being able to use Mythic+ to get to raid level gear just irritates me.
It's not that I don't like hard dungeons or have an ego for it. I was in one of the first groups on our server to successfully 5-man Lower Blackrock Spire when it was relevant when the accepted method was to raid group it up and leave when needed. I probably just don't consider it raid worthy.
I might just be getting old. Granted, I also preferred 40 person raids.
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0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I haven't run M+ higher than M10 because I hate it and I think it sucks.
But, I've watched some of the Mythic Invitationals, and while those people are the best of the best in the world, all I see them doing is huge pulls, invis potting past the difficult pulls, and generally playing in a very not-fun (to me) manner.
The MDI is not representative of high keys. It's an environment with infinite practise time where the goal is to go as fast as possible, not to go as high on the key as possible. They're doing key levels significantly below what they are capable of.
And it looks exactly as I described it: a Go Go Go rush playstyle with literally no strategy other than abusing cooldowns and playing the "oh shit I hope my tank doesn't die because he pulled triple what is safe" game
However, this part is still not true. It looks that way to you because you don't have enough experience to recognise the strategies as they're being used.
For example, here's one of the best tanks in the game currently running a +21 Atal'Dazar.
Jump to about 4:20 for an example of what I mean. They're doing a relatively simple pull, but they still make use of a Sap to keep a high health mob away from its low HP friends. This serves two purposes. Firstly, it's Bolstering, so fighting low HP mobs with high HP ones is dangerous, since you'll kill the low HP ones early. Secondly, after they kill the low HP ones, they go down and grab two more guys to fight with the Sapped mob, so that they're not spending time fighting only one mob. I guess this qualifies as a speed run tactic? But it also seems fairly logical to me, why fight one mob when you can fight three?
However, fighting three requires a careful strategy, because all of those Feasting Skyscreamers will attempt to cast a group-wide fear every 15 seconds, so you need one melee interrupt (ranged interrupts have longer cooldowns) per mob to be able to fully control them. Since they've pulled three and only have three melee interrupts, they need to assign a marker to each mob and assign each player to that marker.
I don't know how you feel about that, but it seems like strategy to me.
They talk pretty regularly through the run as they're doing it about their strategies so I'm sure you'll pick up more watching it if you care. Again, high keys are a VERY different environment from +10s, especially if you've been PUGing them but even if you haven't. And they're certainly drastically different from the MDI environment.
EDIT: In fact, the pull immediately after that, at 5:40, there's even more to this pull. This pull has the Dazar'al Augur, Confessor, and Juggernauts. the Augur's chain-cast fire damage on your group, so you kind of want to interrupt that. But they also cast a group-wide flame AOE every so often, so you also have to be careful to keep an interrupt for that. And the Confessors have an AOE shield and a heal that they cast too. So your interrupts are spread pretty thin, and sometimes the right choice is to let the Augur shred your group with fire and heal through it so that you can keep the interrupts spare for the mroe dangerous spell. Sometimes you have enough interrupts and can keep him under control, or you can use stuns. And while you're doing all of that, the Juggernaut periodically charges out at a ranged DPS or a healer with a charge that requires about half a second reaction times to avoid, and if it hits them will nearly kill them, or will kill them if the key is high enough, so you need to keep stuns and slows controlling him as well, otherwise he'll tear your group apart.
That seems like strategy to me. That's just two pulls, out of the entire run, both which require pinpoint execution and ability usage from the group, good coordination, and CC abilities.
Posts
I get people want to do challenging stuff, but when 90% of players are content playing god of war and button mashing and getting pretty effects, it just doesnt make sense to cram in dark souls to the mix. I honestly just think if a game isnt providing enough challenge, go play another game.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
My group had stopped at that point, but I recall yogg 0 lights taking a long long time to die with 10 man gear only, and LK didn't go down until the passive icecrown buff was at 15% or so. The valkyrie on lich king was a nightmare 10 man if it snagged one of your dps, since that was huge reduction in damage potential.
Open up raiding content one tier behind as new content rolls out. Either by nerfing it, or buffing players in some way.
Its a pretty tried and true method.
Oh, lich king heroic. Should have specified that.
Regular LK wasn't that bad, ICC in general felt pretty undertuned apart from that fight from what I remember.
I just don't know what class I'm going to roll first. My very first WoW char ever was a Human Warlock, but I also like mages and druids.
I'm so torn.
I enjoyed too much of the class flavor, and having the only party summoning tool out there will be huge.
I imagine a lot of folks will play a Mage to ease the pain of no flying.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
lol eat my rock ele while I heal myself you fucks
I basically would solo cap the last flag in av because it was so easy for me to do it
I feel like maybe I should play something else to switch it up and go out of my comfort zone.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Classes lacked the utility they have now to survive bad pulls and cc was the crutch they used because mages couldnt save a f up with like ring of frost for example, which is much better then wiping because you messed up the pull and its literally impossible to interupt or stun the mob because they where rare or dont work half the time
Itll be fun but some are in for a real ready check
Mmm and your cc choices are that and sheep, you can use fear but therthing wasnt in yet so enjoy your extra pulls
A competent warlock could use curse of recklessness to "fear juggle" mobs, as well as seduction and banish if there were appropriate types.
You also had Shackle Undead and hibernate. But each one only worked on like 1-2 mob types.
I'd be okay with a wrath or TBC server too
Eh. CC is not a crutch, it's just from a slower time. WoW was Everquest, improved, and so you CC'd stuff. Personally, I preferred it. Yeah, you had to watch what abilities you used to not break it, but.....that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I loved saving the day with frost nova's in TBC as well, but I was a main tank in vanilla.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
The current meta of "Go Go Go" is not fun for me. I preferred the difficulty of dungeons like Magister's Terrace, where pulls had to be done just right, and even trash posed a threat. And they didn't even have to do stupid/ridiculous crap like -affixes to make it happen. I don't like affixes either. Maybe if there were more of them, maybe if they were a bit more dynamic, and maybe if they weren't so predictable I'd like them more. As it stands now, having weekly flip flops of Fortified and Tyranical is awful, as those are two of the least interesting and least fun affixes there are. The other affixes are only slightly more interesting.
And anyway, I prefer the original difficulty curve of vanilla and TBC's dungeons, which were a lot slower paced and a lot more methodical in how you had to approach them.
EQ did it and it was a relatively large success.
It'd be a boon for them I think.
I understand what you mean by gogogo runs, but I can say it was fun with a group you knew how they operated and you knew how hard you could push them before, 'hey, mana break.'
I broke a lot of mages, and healers of the bad habit of drinking every pull. After a couple warm-up fights to see how they used their mana, I knew how hard I could push them with chain pulls.
Watching casters learn they could drink between chain pulls if they alternated main dps or healing roles with each other was a delight. They would be in awe of running scholo or other 60 dungeons way faster than they thought possible.
I do want to run stratholme with 4 warriors and a shaman though. Id like to see how broke that time limit is.
Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
The time limit wasn't in from the start, was patched in at some point.
Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that this is exactly what high M+ is.
I don't know about *exactly*, but it really is pretty damn close.
Once Distracting Shot was turned into a proper taunt, it got easier. You'd have to FD to reapply traps though.
I haven't run M+ higher than M10 because I hate it and I think it sucks.
But, I've watched some of the Mythic Invitationals, and while those people are the best of the best in the world, all I see them doing is huge pulls, invis potting past the difficult pulls, and generally playing in a very not-fun (to me) manner. And it looks exactly as I described it: a Go Go Go rush playstyle with literally no strategy other than abusing cooldowns and playing the "oh shit I hope my tank doesn't die because he pulled triple what is safe" game.
Dungeons now vs vanilla are nothing alike. If you pulled huge packs like people do now youd just die. In vanilla cc broke on damage, and not every class had an aoe stun on a one minute cooldown. Not to mention cc could be resisted as well. Yes you still have to execute the pulls correctly or you die, but the emphasis on cc vs dps and kiting/interrupts is pretty huge. They dont even compare.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
My M+ experience is admittedly limited, but I have yet to see any group pull huge packs unless it'll somehow improve our survivability in that area. There's lots of really small pulls with marking a specific mob that needs to be murdered and stunned and interrupted a whole bunch.
I participated in Mythic+ in Legion and somewhat enjoyed them. They were new, though. It wore off, though, and something just....bothers me about how effective it is to get loot via Mythic+.
It's not rational, I have nothing I can cite, I'm not even going to argue if someone posts after and says "Biz you idiot", something about being able to use Mythic+ to get to raid level gear just irritates me.
It's not that I don't like hard dungeons or have an ego for it. I was in one of the first groups on our server to successfully 5-man Lower Blackrock Spire when it was relevant when the accepted method was to raid group it up and leave when needed. I probably just don't consider it raid worthy.
I might just be getting old. Granted, I also preferred 40 person raids.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
The MDI is not representative of high keys. It's an environment with infinite practise time where the goal is to go as fast as possible, not to go as high on the key as possible. They're doing key levels significantly below what they are capable of.
However, this part is still not true. It looks that way to you because you don't have enough experience to recognise the strategies as they're being used.
For example, here's one of the best tanks in the game currently running a +21 Atal'Dazar.
Jump to about 4:20 for an example of what I mean. They're doing a relatively simple pull, but they still make use of a Sap to keep a high health mob away from its low HP friends. This serves two purposes. Firstly, it's Bolstering, so fighting low HP mobs with high HP ones is dangerous, since you'll kill the low HP ones early. Secondly, after they kill the low HP ones, they go down and grab two more guys to fight with the Sapped mob, so that they're not spending time fighting only one mob. I guess this qualifies as a speed run tactic? But it also seems fairly logical to me, why fight one mob when you can fight three?
However, fighting three requires a careful strategy, because all of those Feasting Skyscreamers will attempt to cast a group-wide fear every 15 seconds, so you need one melee interrupt (ranged interrupts have longer cooldowns) per mob to be able to fully control them. Since they've pulled three and only have three melee interrupts, they need to assign a marker to each mob and assign each player to that marker.
I don't know how you feel about that, but it seems like strategy to me.
They talk pretty regularly through the run as they're doing it about their strategies so I'm sure you'll pick up more watching it if you care. Again, high keys are a VERY different environment from +10s, especially if you've been PUGing them but even if you haven't. And they're certainly drastically different from the MDI environment.
EDIT: In fact, the pull immediately after that, at 5:40, there's even more to this pull. This pull has the Dazar'al Augur, Confessor, and Juggernauts. the Augur's chain-cast fire damage on your group, so you kind of want to interrupt that. But they also cast a group-wide flame AOE every so often, so you also have to be careful to keep an interrupt for that. And the Confessors have an AOE shield and a heal that they cast too. So your interrupts are spread pretty thin, and sometimes the right choice is to let the Augur shred your group with fire and heal through it so that you can keep the interrupts spare for the mroe dangerous spell. Sometimes you have enough interrupts and can keep him under control, or you can use stuns. And while you're doing all of that, the Juggernaut periodically charges out at a ranged DPS or a healer with a charge that requires about half a second reaction times to avoid, and if it hits them will nearly kill them, or will kill them if the key is high enough, so you need to keep stuns and slows controlling him as well, otherwise he'll tear your group apart.
That seems like strategy to me. That's just two pulls, out of the entire run, both which require pinpoint execution and ability usage from the group, good coordination, and CC abilities.