It does, if everyone is willing to do it. We managed out first Rags kill in Vanilla with the main healers headset broken, and I raided well into Cata with no mods but a threat meter (As the tank I didn't need one, but old KTM needed everyone to have it to synchronize everyone threat).
Sure the mods and voice make raids easier, but they aren't required, anymore than a mind controlled orc for the fire resist buff was required.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Cata: Most challenging and rewarding dungeons to date; you would run dungeons to get gear even at the very start of raiding as they were significant upgrades from quest rewards.
Firelands: the zone and the fight are some of the most interesting fights wow has done. The hunter guy you had to kite around and manage the dogs, ryolith (even if his leg and turning mechanic was both buggy and random wipe inducing)
The leveling experience got us our first phasing; changing landscape, npcs, and monsters as the story progressed. This introduced some bugs with mining/herbalism nodes being inaccessible, but you have to start somewhere
Phasing was introduced in one of the last few TBC patches, used heavily in WotLK Icecrown and Stormpeaks leveling, and then in most of Cata leveling.,
Phasing has been in the game since launch, but I think it was pretty much only used when you died. When you're a ghost you're in a phase with other ghosts and that's why living players/NPCs aren't visible. Then you get put into a different kind of phase once you get close to your body, so you can see nearby mobs and players when deciding where to rez. That may not even be phasing, but just hidden buff shenanigans.
It does, if everyone is willing to do it. We managed out first Rags kill in Vanilla with the main healers headset broken, and I raided well into Cata with no mods but a threat meter (As the tank I didn't need one, but old KTM needed everyone to have it to synchronize everyone threat).
Sure the mods and voice make raids easier, but they aren't required, anymore than a mind controlled orc for the fire resist buff was required.
Difficulty has ratcheted up significantly since Cata (nevermind 40m Rag lol), partly to keep the challenge because raiders have mods that tell them all sorts of things.
I mean deep in the engine there's probably very little difference between becoming a ghost and entering a different phase, but it being introduced as a means to allow for the player to permanently change the world was definitely a big deal. Also it was used heavily all throughout Wrath and not just the high level zones: the starting zones have tons of different phases and I distinctly remember the hoops they made you jump through to go somewhere else and then return so the new phase could load in properly.
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
I didn't talk much even though I had a mic and I sound like a dog that learned to talk via growling
I didn't like mods and still don't as I could play affliction fine in vanilla without it as I loved the keyboard dance with it
I agree I hated being forced to download mods I straight up lied several times about doing it just to raid
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
It cuts down on the possibility of human error. Yes, you can do all of the mechanics without it. But take a sample size of 200 attempts - how many individual errors were made during those 200 attempts? DBM will prevent at least some of them vs not having it.
+6
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
IMO DBM is only necessary when your guild needs to start watching timers to do shit, and needs to manage their own cds and such to coordinate. Which is only some Mythic raid fights.
Thing is people were requiring that shit back when raids were simple. It is fine if people need it because of human error, but I always felt I pay way better attention as a whole when I am looking for the visuals in the fight and not bars and the game yelling at me.
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
This is a remarkably goosey comment that insultingly dismisses 75% of the playerbase here.
Argus aside, heroic is a measure of difficulty and many people do care about it. More than don't
+3
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
By this argument, none of WoW is a measure of difficulty, only gear level, time, and patience.
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
By this argument, none of WoW is a measure of difficulty, only gear level, time, and patience.
Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but yes, this is probably more accurate than most people that engage with the content are willing to admit.
The first mods I remember that my guild started to require were decurse, then omen for the Vael fight, then dbm for the later bits of AQ and Nax. Healing certain fights in Nax without timers wasn't a thing that could be done. I don't think people appreciate how tough wrangling 40 people in the rags fight was for the healers either, between knock backs, los, and the spread for the ability that one shot if overlapped.
Does anyone remember the BWL bug with the balcony in the last room that only affected certain graphics cards? ^.^
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The reason I always end up using it though is because there are aspects that don’t work right for others if I don’t have it. I might be fine without, but I won’t ruin another’s experience because of that.
One of the raids in our guild apparently got their first mythic Argus kill with no voice, because our discord shit the bed and I guess they didn’t have an alternative to use
Of course they had hundreds of attempts under their belt so it’s not the same as joining some pub run, but still
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
This is a remarkably goosey comment that insultingly dismisses 75% of the playerbase here.
Argus aside, heroic is a measure of difficulty and many people do care about it. More than don't
You don't get to say something is not hard, if you aren't actually talking about the hardest difficulty it comes in.
Pfff rocket science is super easy, i shoot vinager an soda rockets in my backyard all the time.
I was in server fist guild back in the 40 man era, and top 100 US in the more modern, and both felt hard at the time, but the more modern stuff is objectively harder. However it is also tuned more appropriately (i.e. there were vanilla and TBC bosses that were literally unkillable by the math in game until nerfs), the addons today are way more evolved, and, perhaps most importantly, players have a lot more experience at the game itself. Like the KJ mechanic someone brought up that's been around since 2006 (and you bet we wiled a bunch to it... In 2006)
Smrtnik on
+1
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
You don't get to say something is not hard, if you aren't actually talking about the hardest difficulty it comes in.
Pfff rocket science is super easy, i shoot vinager an soda rockets in my backyard all the time.
This is a great point that I couldn't agree with more.
It's like the people who dismiss Legion dungeons as "boring AOE fests, group everything up and DPS it down, no CC required" when their highest key level done is a +15 once a week with their 965 guildmates.
I said they're not that much more technically complicated than fights have ever been (since roughly WotLK), and that addons are not necessary and should not be mandatory.
Especially if I'm not even doing mythic.
And if the goal is to make fights that are so difficult that they almost can't be done without downloading some third-party tool to help... well that's bad design, IMO.
RT800 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I said they're not that much more technically complicated than fights have ever been (since roughly WotLK), and that addons are not necessary and should not be mandatory.
I mean, in the first trash pull of Maw of Souls alone, there are eight different mechanics that can kill a DPS player. In one trash pull. Eight. All of them are avoidable, and all of them need sub-second reaction times to avoid, with different responses for each.
I can't even think of any raid fight with that many mechanics in any previous expansion, let alone a 5man dungeon.
WoW has become much more complicated since TBC/WotLK and arguing otherwise can only come from a position of ignorance on current content.
Fine. Mythics are super duper hard and Yogg-Saron ain't got shit on that first MoS pull.
I still shouldn't be expected to download a third-party modification to even attempt such laughably banal content as "heroic" Argus the Unmaker.
Ok so don't. My guild primary raid (which i retired form in late SoO) doesn't require but does recommend add-ons, and expects you to perform or sits you. If you can do the jerb without an addon more power to you.
I think it’s fair to say that blizzard have basically decided that some sort of UI modification being necessary to complete encounters is okay; rather than try to block stuff like DBM they seem to have started deliberately designing around it, to the point that having a talented scripter is now pretty important for bleeding edge raids (so that you can make custom WAs to deal with stuff like archimonde beams more easily.)
I dunno; I think encounters like yogg saron would still be challenging, but comparatively rote when considered alongside some of the stuff they’re designing now. Modern encounters have a lot of designed “randomness” that really wasn’t present back when.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The first mods I remember that my guild started to require were decurse, then omen for the Vael fight, then dbm for the later bits of AQ and Nax. Healing certain fights in Nax without timers wasn't a thing that could be done. I don't think people appreciate how tough wrangling 40 people in the rags fight was for the healers either, between knock backs, los, and the spread for the ability that one shot if overlapped.
Does anyone remember the BWL bug with the balcony in the last room that only affected certain graphics cards? ^.^
Decurse wasn't super nessacary. It was generally used because mages had a decurse and most people didn't have it on a bar. I think at some point hitting the decurse button made it automatically target a player with curse and cure them before switching back. Then that hot fixed so it was basically a weak version of healbot.
Either way it was easy and was just a helpful thing. But totes not needed.
Omen was just so people could watch their threat. Which is something people still don't do. Ahahahaha.
Origin: HaxtonWasHere
Steam: pandas_gota_gun
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
This is a remarkably goosey comment that insultingly dismisses 75% of the playerbase here.
Argus aside, heroic is a measure of difficulty and many people do care about it. More than don't
You don't get to say something is not hard, if you aren't actually talking about the hardest difficulty it comes in.
Pfff rocket science is super easy, i shoot vinager an soda rockets in my backyard all the time.
I was in server fist guild back in the 40 man era, and top 100 US in the more modern, and both felt hard at the time, but the more modern stuff is objectively harder. However it is also tuned more appropriately (i.e. there were vanilla and TBC bosses that were literally unkillable by the math in game until nerfs), the addons today are way more evolved, and, perhaps most importantly, players have a lot more experience at the game itself. Like the KJ mechanic someone brought up that's been around since 2006 (and you bet we wiled a bunch to it... In 2006)
For the record, I never said you were wrong.
But you chose a horribly goosey way to put it. There are much stronger words to put that, but they aren't allowed.
You can say that Mythic is a true measure of difficulty without dismissing the rest of the playerbase like a huge ass elitist. Everyone plays at the level they can handle. Heroic MAY BE hard to those levels of the playerbase.
Don't be blind to the rest of the playerbase just because you might be more capable. Some people just aren't smart enough to do rocket science, and that analogy is horrible anyway because you are acting like the second you go below the top 1% of players it immediately jumps down to special olympics level. There are many people out there that have every reason to be proud of their accomplishments because they ARE accomplishments for their capabilities.
However, I think the original point was, for THESE levels of content, there are many many guilds that require addons for it and as you have said, it is not challenging enough for that need. Some people do need it. But not all. Yet those that require it simply cannot fathom that its possible without them at any difficulty.
I think the issue is that if you make a mod required because 80% of your raid would benefit from using it, bam youre done. Move on. 1 rule, easy to understand and enforce. If you leave it up to player discretion, then lazy people and those who consider themselves better than they really are wont have it even though it would make them better. If i was raid leader i know which way id go.
As some one who was raid leader for all of TBC and WotLK mandatory mods are such a life saver. Video games are the platonic ideal of the Dunning Kruger effect and people get really sensitive when you have to call them out for fucking up. For us though the only mandatory mod was a threat meter. I had DBM and a few others but that was it.
I'd agree that the complexity of fights has increased from vanilla to legion. Ragnaros was mostly just a bunch of button mashing.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
This is a remarkably goosey comment that insultingly dismisses 75% of the playerbase here.
Argus aside, heroic is a measure of difficulty and many people do care about it. More than don't
You don't get to say something is not hard, if you aren't actually talking about the hardest difficulty it comes in.
Pfff rocket science is super easy, i shoot vinager an soda rockets in my backyard all the time.
I was in server fist guild back in the 40 man era, and top 100 US in the more modern, and both felt hard at the time, but the more modern stuff is objectively harder. However it is also tuned more appropriately (i.e. there were vanilla and TBC bosses that were literally unkillable by the math in game until nerfs), the addons today are way more evolved, and, perhaps most importantly, players have a lot more experience at the game itself. Like the KJ mechanic someone brought up that's been around since 2006 (and you bet we wiled a bunch to it... In 2006)
For the record, I never said you were wrong.
But you chose a horribly goosey way to put it. There are much stronger words to put that, but they aren't allowed.
You can say that Mythic is a true measure of difficulty without dismissing the rest of the playerbase like a huge ass elitist. Everyone plays at the level they can handle. Heroic MAY BE hard to those levels of the playerbase.
Don't be blind to the rest of the playerbase just because you might be more capable. Some people just aren't smart enough to do rocket science, and that analogy is horrible anyway because you are acting like the second you go below the top 1% of players it immediately jumps down to special olympics level. There are many people out there that have every reason to be proud of their accomplishments because they ARE accomplishments for their capabilities.
However, I think the original point was, for THESE levels of content, there are many many guilds that require addons for it and as you have said, it is not challenging enough for that need. Some people do need it. But not all. Yet those that require it simply cannot fathom that its possible without them at any difficulty.
As i said, i "retired" from our main raid in late SoO (like the night before we got the bigs before Garrosh) so I've been out of the cutting edge for a while, doing 1 night per week heroic since. But I'm under no illusion that the content we (retired from main raid) raiders are wiping on is objectively difficult.
The main raid preps spreadsheets, positioning drawings, cooldown rotations, soak rotations, etc.. in advance, for most bosses. We do none of that, just show up and beat our head on it until it clicks with everyone in the group. There is no way that's equal effort.
There are a lot of times I wish DBM had less of a reason to exist, but at this point, enough MMOs actually do their raid cues well enough where I’m betting Blizzard relies on it just as much as their players. It’s the only reason they haven’t gotten any better at it. They consider it a solved problem thanks to addons
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Blizzard has actually gotten much better at telegraphs. Antorus is a great example.
Purple = share
Red = spread
Opaque circle = needs soaking
Transparent circle = already being soaked
Minor things.
+5
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
There are a lot of times I wish DBM had less of a reason to exist, but at this point, enough MMOs actually do their raid cues well enough where I’m betting Blizzard relies on it just as much as their players. It’s the only reason they haven’t gotten any better at it. They consider it a solved problem thanks to addons
See that is something that hasn't been true for a while. Blizzards raid queues have pretty much been spot on for dealing with shit for a long time. Again, the only thing you really need addon assistance for is timers, which really only come into play for min maxing in Mythic raids. Then they are just outright required.
There are a lot of times I wish DBM had less of a reason to exist, but at this point, enough MMOs actually do their raid cues well enough where I’m betting Blizzard relies on it just as much as their players. It’s the only reason they haven’t gotten any better at it. They consider it a solved problem thanks to addons
See that is something that hasn't been true for a while. Blizzards raid queues have pretty much been spot on for dealing with shit for a long time. Again, the only thing you really need addon assistance for is timers, which really only come into play for min maxing in Mythic raids. Then they are just outright required.
Nah, things like ground effects matching the color of the ground is just bad design, and can really fuck with colorblind players, and their colorblind option isn’t very good. Again, look at other MMOs like ffxiv that don’t have mods, and you’ll notice a marked improvement over what wow does, especially over the games lifespan.its because they can’t rely on player mods to do it for them. It’s pretty clear that in TBC or so they just reached a point where ‘this is fine’ and stopped iterating on it
As some one who was raid leader for all of TBC and WotLK mandatory mods are such a life saver. Video games are the platonic ideal of the Dunning Kruger effect and people get really sensitive when you have to call them out for fucking up. For us though the only mandatory mod was a threat meter. I had DBM and a few others but that was it.
CTRaid was a life saver during BWL. Rather, it was a bow saver, and sometimes you'd still catch me or another hunter dropping a repair bot on Nef.
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drunkenpandarenSlapping all the goblin hamIn the top laneRegistered Userregular
Blizzard has actually gotten much better at telegraphs. Antorus is a great example.
Purple = share
Red = spread
Opaque circle = needs soaking
Transparent circle = already being soaked
Minor things.
I agree, but also disagree since there is no raid standard. FFXIV has standard tells for their fights, so even on newish content, players probably have tripped over the boss tells at some point earlier. WoW just had tells for mechanics, but they could mean anything in the context of the fight.
Blizzard has actually gotten much better at telegraphs. Antorus is a great example.
Purple = share
Red = spread
Opaque circle = needs soaking
Transparent circle = already being soaked
Minor things.
I agree, but also disagree since there is no raid standard. FFXIV has standard tells for their fights, so even on newish content, players probably have tripped over the boss tells at some point earlier. WoW just had tells for mechanics, but they could mean anything in the context of the fight.
Yeah, which probably one of the reasons why we don't have any content that really gets new players used that. As someone that has really don't any serious raiding, this is the first time that I've known any of that and I say this as someone is is at least familiar with the mechanics on LFR. Honestly, this has been a perennial problem with Blizz they are consistent where they should be and continue to do a piss poor job conveying important information to players. Heck, ever since we've gotten scenarios for leveling, Blizz has done a piss poor job of taking advantage because before I even step for into a group instance, if I were a novice player, I should know what the basic queues are. That pretty much means Blizz needs to be consistent first on a fair chunk of this and then implement the training somewhere where players are going to see it.
Granted, we're in the classic WoW thread and Blizz seems to be on the thought of "classic WoW for better or worse." So unless they go the route of runescape, I don't see this being tackled in Classic WoW. Honestly, I suspect if we get the Classic WoW for better or worse set, that it's largely going to fail because despite all the warts the modern WoW has, there is no denying they've made some serious and much needed improvements. Where I'd argue people are going to get fed up with some of the garbage the game first released with, that isn't stuff people are willing to let slide these days. One has to wonder if part of the delay with this is that bean counters haven't figured out how to make money off of it. In 2018, Vanilla was as it was released is not worth 20 dollars for the download, nor is it probably worth a 5 dollar monthly sub. I also doubt they want to release it as a free three either because the infrastructure for it is going to cost money. I think the only way they get to a point where they can justify charging money, is when they implement some of the improvements that have been done to modern WoW and that means some of the vanilla crowd will not be happy.
It does give them great PR for cracking down on private WoW servers. As much as I hate current IP laws, I do think they are well within there rights to shut those down without the smokescreen of "well we'll eventually do a vanilla server." I also think they'd still be within those rights, even if we had a more sane IP law setup.
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I raided everything from vanilla to mid-cataclysm with no mic and no mods. (Well, we never got far in vanilla Naxxramas, but who did?)
Now adays people don't want you to come along if you won't jump on discord to listen to them yammer endlessly.
I like my raids quiet. It's all rote shit anyway.
Sure the mods and voice make raids easier, but they aren't required, anymore than a mind controlled orc for the fire resist buff was required.
Difficulty has ratcheted up significantly since Cata (nevermind 40m Rag lol), partly to keep the challenge because raiders have mods that tell them all sorts of things.
But I don't think I agree that raid mechanics have necessarily gotten any more complex between WotLK and Legion.
Take Argus the Unmaker, for example.
If you're DPS on Argus the Unmaker, you're job is basically just:
Phase 1:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul blight.
3. Drop your orbs someplace accessible.
Phase 2:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
Phase 3:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Kill adds, interrupt cosmic beacon.
3. Run out if you're the target of cosmic ray.
Phase 4:
1. Don't stand in shit.
2. Run out if you've got soul burst/soul bomb.
3. Kill orbs.
It all just boils down to environmental awareness and target prioritization. "Stand here not there", "Kill this not that", and "Watch your debuffs" has been a staple of raids for years now.
I don't need a flashing neon sign and an audio queue and a bunch of assholes in discord saying "Soul Bomb" to tell me when I've got Soul Bomb. The base UI already tells me that.
All I need to do is pay attention.
I'm not saying that things like DBM aren't helpful. I'm just saying this "download and use it or you can't raid with us" mentality is BS.
I didn't like mods and still don't as I could play affliction fine in vanilla without it as I loved the keyboard dance with it
I agree I hated being forced to download mods I straight up lied several times about doing it just to raid
It cuts down on the possibility of human error. Yes, you can do all of the mechanics without it. But take a sample size of 200 attempts - how many individual errors were made during those 200 attempts? DBM will prevent at least some of them vs not having it.
Thing is people were requiring that shit back when raids were simple. It is fine if people need it because of human error, but I always felt I pay way better attention as a whole when I am looking for the visuals in the fight and not bars and the game yelling at me.
Nobody cares about heroic, it's not a measure of difficulty
This is a remarkably goosey comment that insultingly dismisses 75% of the playerbase here.
Argus aside, heroic is a measure of difficulty and many people do care about it. More than don't
By this argument, none of WoW is a measure of difficulty, only gear level, time, and patience.
Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but yes, this is probably more accurate than most people that engage with the content are willing to admit.
Does anyone remember the BWL bug with the balcony in the last room that only affected certain graphics cards? ^.^
Of course they had hundreds of attempts under their belt so it’s not the same as joining some pub run, but still
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You don't get to say something is not hard, if you aren't actually talking about the hardest difficulty it comes in.
Pfff rocket science is super easy, i shoot vinager an soda rockets in my backyard all the time.
I was in server fist guild back in the 40 man era, and top 100 US in the more modern, and both felt hard at the time, but the more modern stuff is objectively harder. However it is also tuned more appropriately (i.e. there were vanilla and TBC bosses that were literally unkillable by the math in game until nerfs), the addons today are way more evolved, and, perhaps most importantly, players have a lot more experience at the game itself. Like the KJ mechanic someone brought up that's been around since 2006 (and you bet we wiled a bunch to it... In 2006)
This is a great point that I couldn't agree with more.
It's like the people who dismiss Legion dungeons as "boring AOE fests, group everything up and DPS it down, no CC required" when their highest key level done is a +15 once a week with their 965 guildmates.
I said they're not that much more technically complicated than fights have ever been (since roughly WotLK), and that addons are not necessary and should not be mandatory.
Especially if I'm not even doing mythic.
And if the goal is to make fights that are so difficult that they almost can't be done without downloading some third-party tool to help... well that's bad design, IMO.
I mean, in the first trash pull of Maw of Souls alone, there are eight different mechanics that can kill a DPS player. In one trash pull. Eight. All of them are avoidable, and all of them need sub-second reaction times to avoid, with different responses for each.
I can't even think of any raid fight with that many mechanics in any previous expansion, let alone a 5man dungeon.
WoW has become much more complicated since TBC/WotLK and arguing otherwise can only come from a position of ignorance on current content.
I still shouldn't be expected to download a third-party modification to even attempt such laughably banal content as "heroic" Argus the Unmaker.
Ok so don't. My guild primary raid (which i retired form in late SoO) doesn't require but does recommend add-ons, and expects you to perform or sits you. If you can do the jerb without an addon more power to you.
I dunno; I think encounters like yogg saron would still be challenging, but comparatively rote when considered alongside some of the stuff they’re designing now. Modern encounters have a lot of designed “randomness” that really wasn’t present back when.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Well yeah but there was little reason to take any number of points in the middle
You've chosen a really weird hill to die on here.
Somehow the argument devolved into a question of whether or not new content is significantly more difficult than old content.
In my opinion, it isn't. Not mechanically, at least. Maybe in the sense that shit can just infinitely scale now, I suppose.
Decurse wasn't super nessacary. It was generally used because mages had a decurse and most people didn't have it on a bar. I think at some point hitting the decurse button made it automatically target a player with curse and cure them before switching back. Then that hot fixed so it was basically a weak version of healbot.
Either way it was easy and was just a helpful thing. But totes not needed.
Omen was just so people could watch their threat. Which is something people still don't do. Ahahahaha.
Steam: pandas_gota_gun
For the record, I never said you were wrong.
But you chose a horribly goosey way to put it. There are much stronger words to put that, but they aren't allowed.
You can say that Mythic is a true measure of difficulty without dismissing the rest of the playerbase like a huge ass elitist. Everyone plays at the level they can handle. Heroic MAY BE hard to those levels of the playerbase.
Don't be blind to the rest of the playerbase just because you might be more capable. Some people just aren't smart enough to do rocket science, and that analogy is horrible anyway because you are acting like the second you go below the top 1% of players it immediately jumps down to special olympics level. There are many people out there that have every reason to be proud of their accomplishments because they ARE accomplishments for their capabilities.
However, I think the original point was, for THESE levels of content, there are many many guilds that require addons for it and as you have said, it is not challenging enough for that need. Some people do need it. But not all. Yet those that require it simply cannot fathom that its possible without them at any difficulty.
PSN:Furlion
As i said, i "retired" from our main raid in late SoO (like the night before we got the bigs before Garrosh) so I've been out of the cutting edge for a while, doing 1 night per week heroic since. But I'm under no illusion that the content we (retired from main raid) raiders are wiping on is objectively difficult.
The main raid preps spreadsheets, positioning drawings, cooldown rotations, soak rotations, etc.. in advance, for most bosses. We do none of that, just show up and beat our head on it until it clicks with everyone in the group. There is no way that's equal effort.
Purple = share
Red = spread
Opaque circle = needs soaking
Transparent circle = already being soaked
Minor things.
See that is something that hasn't been true for a while. Blizzards raid queues have pretty much been spot on for dealing with shit for a long time. Again, the only thing you really need addon assistance for is timers, which really only come into play for min maxing in Mythic raids. Then they are just outright required.
Nah, things like ground effects matching the color of the ground is just bad design, and can really fuck with colorblind players, and their colorblind option isn’t very good. Again, look at other MMOs like ffxiv that don’t have mods, and you’ll notice a marked improvement over what wow does, especially over the games lifespan.its because they can’t rely on player mods to do it for them. It’s pretty clear that in TBC or so they just reached a point where ‘this is fine’ and stopped iterating on it
CTRaid was a life saver during BWL. Rather, it was a bow saver, and sometimes you'd still catch me or another hunter dropping a repair bot on Nef.
I agree, but also disagree since there is no raid standard. FFXIV has standard tells for their fights, so even on newish content, players probably have tripped over the boss tells at some point earlier. WoW just had tells for mechanics, but they could mean anything in the context of the fight.
Steam: pandas_gota_gun
Yeah, which probably one of the reasons why we don't have any content that really gets new players used that. As someone that has really don't any serious raiding, this is the first time that I've known any of that and I say this as someone is is at least familiar with the mechanics on LFR. Honestly, this has been a perennial problem with Blizz they are consistent where they should be and continue to do a piss poor job conveying important information to players. Heck, ever since we've gotten scenarios for leveling, Blizz has done a piss poor job of taking advantage because before I even step for into a group instance, if I were a novice player, I should know what the basic queues are. That pretty much means Blizz needs to be consistent first on a fair chunk of this and then implement the training somewhere where players are going to see it.
Granted, we're in the classic WoW thread and Blizz seems to be on the thought of "classic WoW for better or worse." So unless they go the route of runescape, I don't see this being tackled in Classic WoW. Honestly, I suspect if we get the Classic WoW for better or worse set, that it's largely going to fail because despite all the warts the modern WoW has, there is no denying they've made some serious and much needed improvements. Where I'd argue people are going to get fed up with some of the garbage the game first released with, that isn't stuff people are willing to let slide these days. One has to wonder if part of the delay with this is that bean counters haven't figured out how to make money off of it. In 2018, Vanilla was as it was released is not worth 20 dollars for the download, nor is it probably worth a 5 dollar monthly sub. I also doubt they want to release it as a free three either because the infrastructure for it is going to cost money. I think the only way they get to a point where they can justify charging money, is when they implement some of the improvements that have been done to modern WoW and that means some of the vanilla crowd will not be happy.
It does give them great PR for cracking down on private WoW servers. As much as I hate current IP laws, I do think they are well within there rights to shut those down without the smokescreen of "well we'll eventually do a vanilla server." I also think they'd still be within those rights, even if we had a more sane IP law setup.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.