Learning winter sports in your mid-30s ?

BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
Hi,

I have never done any skiing or snowboarding before and now that I live pretty close to a (2 hour drive) ski resort, I would like to learn how. I am just a little worried that I might be a bit old and it could be dangerous as I have less flexibility than a kid and if I break something, it will take much longer to heal. Obviously I am not going to just go get some equipment and try to learn on my own, I'll hire an instructor for a weekend or two but I wanted to ask if anyone has been in a similar situation? Also I have some windsurfing experience (intermediate) so I am wondering if that could be an advantage in snowboarding and improve my chances in keeping balance, etc.

Many thanks.

i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

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  • RayzeRayze Registered User regular
    Not the same exact age range but I was in my mid 20s when I snowboarded for the first time so I don't think age is an issue. I think you'll be fine, as long as you take it slow. You'll be on the bunny slopes anyway so risk of serious injury is minimal.

    djmitchellaNightDragonElvenshaeBasarRingo
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    My mother never skied until she was in her 60s. She loves it. She did break a wrist once but it didn't stop her for long.

    davidsdurionsBasarceres
  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    I can only advise for skiing.

    Get the hang of learning how to control your speed and stopping. When you get the hang of these feel free to leave the bunny hill.

    If you feel like you are ever losing control you can always cut into the mountain (as in a turn or straight up stopping) and fall down.

    Avoid moguls.

    Stretch hips, calves, legs, etc and you should be fine

    NightDragonElvenshaeBasarSkeithRingoBahamutZERO
  • djmitchelladjmitchella Registered User regular
    I learned to snowboard in my late twenties (and to skate in early forties) andthe main difference between then and now is that it hurts more when I fall down. It may sound obvious, but if you can go on a day when it isn't super icy, it'll not just be easier to learn, it'll hurt less when you fall.

    Windsurfing / skateboarding / any sort of moving-platform sport will help with snowboarding, though comparing it to windsurfing there's much less use of your arms/core, it's much more about balancing your body as it moves rather than dealing with the motion of water under you. (I went the other way, I learned to snowboard before I tried windsurfing, and general balance is useful, but the specific skills/motions don't transfer over)

    That said, the most likely thing you'll find after the first day snowboarding is that it _is_ your arms and core that are worn out, because when you're learning you spend a lot of time getting up, and until you a:stop falling over, and b:work out how to get up efficiently when you do, it's arms and core that do a lot of the work of lifting you up, and those are the things that'll be sore the next day.

    BasarRingo
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    Wear a helmet

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    djmitchellaDarkewolfeKruitemRahmanischussSmrtnikMugsleyKetBraBasarSkeithEvermournJaysonFourRingoBouwsTDoodmann
  • NightDragonNightDragon 6th Grade Username Registered User regular
    If you've got the knees, bring out the skis!

    KetBraBasar
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    Squats. Lots of squats. And then pistol squats if you can. And get boots that fit right.

    SimpsoniaBasarElement BrianRingoDoodmann
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I picked up snowboarding when I was 32; wasn't any big deal beyond what you've already surmised (falls are harder, recovery is worse, etc. than if you were 25.) Anything that's keeping your core and legs shaped up will help learning because that's where your balance is coming from.

    I took an adult intro class (four hours or soemthing) and afterward felt pretty confident doing simple stuff on my own. The biggest things are to learn to turn while staying upright and how to fall without hurting yourself; after that you're pretty okay as long as you don't get going too fast

    NREqxl5.jpg
    djmitchellaBasar
  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    I started out snowboarding last year at 29. I tried skiing and it wasn't for me, but I really enjoyed snowboarding even though I actually fell more often than on skis. Something about it gave me a better feeling of control.

    I pretty much threw myself down the hill over and over until I figured it out. I don't necessarily recommend that strategy, but it worked for me. I scoffed at helmets and was rewarded with a hard smack on the head my second day on the hill. Definitely wear a helmet.

    BasarRingo
  • chromdomchromdom Why do bad things keep happening to me? Oh yeah, because of the things I've done.Registered User regular
    A couple of my friends moved to Utah several years ago. I don't know if they skied before, but they both took up skiing with their kids as real wintertime hobby when they moved out there.
    Both have blown out their ACLs.

    I am not a winter sports person and my view is biased, but that seems to indicate against taking up skiing as an adult.

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    chromdom wrote: »
    A couple of my friends moved to Utah several years ago. I don't know if they skied before, but they both took up skiing with their kids as real wintertime hobby when they moved out there.
    Both have blown out their ACLs.

    I am not a winter sports person and my view is biased, but that seems to indicate against taking up skiing as an adult.

    ACL blows are caused by backwards twisting falls. If youre falling backwards, try not to fight it. Also, don't crank the DIN up on your skis.
    Take lessons, have fun. If going snowboarding, get some armored shorts for the first 7 days or so. You'll thank me later.

  • chromdomchromdom Why do bad things keep happening to me? Oh yeah, because of the things I've done.Registered User regular
    Maybe it was MCLs? I dunno. Knees went kablooey.

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    chromdom wrote: »
    Maybe it was MCLs? I dunno. Knees went kablooey.

    It's somewhat common, but usually associated to those things. A common thing is for people to run dins that are too high so their skis don't pop off, not realizing that's so your knees don't blow up.

  • ReaperSMSReaperSMS Registered User regular
    Speaking for snowboarding, picked it up at 22, still at it at 37.

    Bonafides:

    I've been snowboarding about 2 weeks a year, nearly every year, since '02. If I show up for a group lesson, it usually ends up being a de-facto private somewhere in the 7-8.5 range, hunting down double black bowls, occasional bump fields, and sometimes trees (not a huge fan of trees). In that time, I've only had two truly nasty falls, one of which was definitely my own dumb fault in a terrain park (bruised rib), and one that I probably should have seen coming -- a fellow uphill from me lost control on an ice patch and a minor collision occurred (back muscle sprain). Otherwise I haven't come across a slope I couldn't get down, though not necessarily prettily.

    Evangelism:

    Snowboarding is awesome. The boots are comfortable, you can walk down stairs in them. When you fall, you don't have to collect your gear. The technique you learn on day 1 will work on just about *anything* up to and including a 50 degree slope with moguls. That silly little pizza/snowplow/wedge will not.

    Anecdotals:

    I tried skiing in my early teens, never really got the hang of it. Didn't really fall, but never felt particularly comfortable on anything steeper than a bunny hill. I took to snowboarding much more naturally, and started hitting advanced slopes around day 7. That said, a friend was the complete opposite, never figured out the snowboard enough, but was able to catch up on skis rather quickly.

    On a snowboard, it took me about 3 days to get through the initial bit, up to completing turns in both directions down easier intermediate slopes. The first day is painful, and you will fall, it is known. I highly suggest a group lesson or two here, the professional advice from someone with an outside view helps with the stance, as well as the forced breaks as the line of ducklings collects back together.

    If you are flexible about times, try to aim for a time with fresh snow. Falling on a couple of inches of packed powder is lightyears better than, say, a quarter inch of snow dust on ice. You will want a helmet, and butt/tailbone/hip pads don't hurt.

    Injury wise, knees are unlikely on a snowboard, due to the feet being locked together most of the time. Can't really twist the knees differently enough to really screw things up. Wrists can be an issue -- the best approach I know of here is to work on absorbing with your forearms out like an underhand pull-up. Do not, under any circumstance, try to put your hand out push-up style to stop things, that way lies busted wrists, fingers, and general unpleasantness.

    I found mellow intermediate slopes to be the best spots for learning. The beginner runs and catwalks are terrible on a snowboard, as many are too flat to start moving again after falling, and you need a certain amount of speed going to provide stability.

    The lift will probably feel rather weird and uncertain for a good long while, unless you happen to skateboard a lot. Advice there for exiting (which probably won't make sense until you're actually on one) is point the board straight, plant your rear foot just in front of the binding (should be a friction pad there), look dead ahead, and stand up. Maybe push yourself slightly off the chair, but keep your eyes up and ride it out. If you look down, your butt will probably try to stick itself out, then your balance goes, and then you have a bad time.

    Technical bits:

    I haven't been windsurfing, but I'll describe the general gear choice, stance, movements etc, which may be useful for comparison.

    Rent gear off the mountain if possible, the quality will generally be better than the baseline stuff the school might have. In particular you will probably want to avoid snap-in bindings. Those involve a couple of metal rods on the boot snapping into the binding, and they are a pain to deal with, a bit of a mess to get on and off, and involve much stiffer boots. Regular strap-in bindings get the rigidity from the binding and straps, so the boots are a good deal more flexible when out of them -- handy for walking around.

    The general stance will be feet slightly wider than shoulder width apart, with your front foot opened out towards the front of the board. Weight balance should be something like 60/40 or 70/30 downhill/uphill. This is usually the main mental block, but it is the first or second most important bit. You generally keep your weight (and hips) centered over the edge you are riding on. Depending on the terrain, speed, etc, you will be flexing and extending your legs, a lot. Until you hit late intermediate, you always want your weight toward the downhill end of the board, but over the uphill edge. Generally, if that downhill edge hits the snow, you are getting dumped.

    I'll gloss over the basic slide, it gets covered right away, and this is hitting tl;dr already. Assuming you're cutting across the slope, cruising along cleanly (the board is pointed in the direction you're going, and you aren't skidding or drifting much) you'll be in a low-ish position, legs flexed, hips over your uphill edge. In this case, let's say we're on our heel edge, where we start from holding essentially a half-squat, balanced on our heels.

    To start the turn you put some pressure on your front foot toes, and extend your legs a little, with a slight weight shift towards the downhill end. The front end of the board will start to dip downhill, and your hips will be angled slightly into the turn. Smoothly extend your legs through this to get it to turn quicker -- this flattens the board out as your weight moves over the center, which unweights the edge in the snow. As it comes around to the fall line, you apply more toe pressure on your downhill foot -- this twists the nose of the board a bit, and the edge will start to dig in and pull the board around the rest of the way. As that happens, you apply toe pressure on the back foot as well, and smoothly flex your legs into balancing on your toes. When you settle your weight down, that will set the toe-edge (hopefully now the uphill one) in, and you should be cutting back across the slope in the other direction.

    The usual spot for things to go wrong in there is for your brain to get a bit worried around the spot where the board points straight down the fall line, and you shift your weight towards your back foot. When you do this, you lose pretty much all of your steering control, and will pick up a fair bit of speed, something will get more unstable, and you'll catch something and wipe out. The other thing that can go wrong is trying to initiate the turn with your weight set something closer to 50/50 front/back, in which case the nose won't turn downhill very quickly if at all, and if you keep trying to force the edge without getting your weight downhill, will catch that toe edge and get dumped.

    The rough school levels tend to be something like:

    1: Never been on a snowboard before -- learn to strap in, skate, slide on both edges, handle lifts
    2: You can get down with the falling leaf slide -- start learning how to initiate turns, but don't change edges yet
    3: You can sometimes turn, both directions, on green terrain -- work on linking the turns, start towards steeper terrain
    4, 5, 6, 7: Make the turns cleaner, towards steeper terrain, and start carving, early terrain park stuff
    8+: Moguls, trees, wicked air, sweet tricks, cliffs, bowls, etc

    A typical learning curve (with instruction) is something like 1 in the morning, 2-3 by mid afternoon, 4-5 over a couple of days. Later on, it might be more "8 in the morning, slide down to a low 7 or high 6 as the thighs wear out".

    BasarmRahmaniSmrtnikShogunSkeithfirewaterwordspool32Ringo
  • BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
    Thank you all for all the encouragement and good advice. Definitely helps me get mentally prepared for it : )

    I think I will try snowboarding first as I found out my windsurf instructor happens to be a snowboard instructor as well.

    @ReaperSMS special thanks to you for all the detailed info you have given, really appreciate that. I hope your post will shine and get people to this thread when they search for "snowboarding in your 30s" :biggrin:

    i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Ya I'll second snowboarding, I've done both, and boarding is the much much much safer thing to bail on, with it just the single plank in a proper stance,

    whereas you bail on ski's those things are flying everywhere, and you also have poles to launch around too when you bail

    Heck, half the time when you bail on a snowboard, the stance is postioned in a way that you'll end up back on your feet half the time both confused and feeling like a badass

    edit: Snowboard Pro Camp does a great series of videos for beginners as well

    WiseManTobes on
    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    I'll throw my hat in for skiing, especially starting out.

    I am pretty unathletic, but I was able to pick up skiing in 3 mornings of lessons. It is a bit rough on the knees and lower leg muscles, and leaning down the mountain for stability takes a bit to get used to every time.

    Beginning snowboarders end up on their ass a lot, and it takes a bit of balance/muscle to get up with some amount of dignity. I saw a few people get very frustrated spending money on it and getting very little out of it except bruises.

    Occasionally a skier will crash pretty spectacularly, but I never fell much. I think by my third vacation I fell twice in a week.

    Mostly, I'd a) go with friends of somewhat similar skill b) do the same activity as them. Skiiers are faster and have less trouble both getting out of chairlifts and on flat areas, and standing still on the top of a mountain in the cold can get annoying. They also use different lines and if you are not completely sure of your skills yet it is easy to knock into each other.

    I definitely recommend both of them though, the combination of thrill and relaxation is extraordinary. It requires just enough concentration that you stop thinking about much else, without being truely stressful or physically demanding.

    Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
    schuss
  • SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    Definitely figure out how best to stretch your hips if you go skiing, because it can be punishing on those joints and muscles (I was sore for days the last time I went). And I'll second renting gear away from the mountain because a) cheaper and b) you can have better luck finding good boots-- it also eats less time that could be spent on the mountain.

    mts wrote: »
    heres how i see it being a total win situation for you
    1. stay with your wife while she dog sits. this wins husband points since she knows its out of your comfort zone
    2. have sex all over her friends house so that the next time you see her friend look at you condescendingly, you can wink back knowing you did the freaky deaky where she eats her cheerios.
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Do you have access to a trampoline? those are great for prepping muscles for boarding/skiing

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Are you primarily going to be east coast or west coast? I'm a boarder on the east coast who started as a skiier. While either sport is great out west, I've found that snowboarding has an advantage on the east coast because you can entertain yourself a great deal more with less mountain. The additional goofing around and tricks that are more available on a board make a Pennsylvania hill/mountain a much more viable day.

    What is this I don't even.
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    As a slight counter, having 2 edges instead of 1 on east coast mountains is handy with the ice. Snowboarding is much more fun in powder.

  • ReaperSMSReaperSMS Registered User regular
    If it is straight ice I'm not sure an extra edge helps that much, but I'm also spoiled and haven't boarded east of the Mississippi. Certainly heard lots of whining in ca about manmade snow, and occasional "ice" in co. Pretty sure neither would count in the east coast.

    On a board, the stuff I have seen has been a matter of drop the edge angle as low as possible, don't even think about turning until you see some chopped up dust, and hope it runs out before the trees.

    Alternatively, it meant try a turn, wipe out, and toboggan it down, digging hands in to steer, and bouncing the board a bit for speed "control". March in tahoe can be a bit messy between dumps.

    You do end up on your ass a lot on a snowboard, though part of that is it is tiring and/or impossible to hold still standing up. You'll always have company there though, just don't do it in the middle of the slope.

    The big etiquette thing that gets missed is you have a blind side on a board. Lots of skiers (and more than a few boarders) seem to ignore that. Powder days can be even worse for those, as you won't hear them coming.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I ski very infrequently but I love it. However, The latest time I almost fainted on the slope. I was out of shape and dressed too warmly with a bunch of cotton and synthetic layers, and I sweated all the water out of my body without knowing what was happening. I wiped out and literally could not lift my torso to see where my poles went for several minutes.

    Don't skimp on clothing and know when your heart is working too hard; take a break instead of pushing through it. Rehydrate yourself and stop if you are getting dizzy.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Satchitananda Pais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    From personal experience, if you go all weekend without a decent fall, you will absolutely 100% no question eat enormous shit on that "one last run."

    Skiing is awesome though for real. Was lucky enough to grow up doing it. If we were all drinking beers together somewhere, I'd bore you to death over how incredible the switch from straight to parabolic skis was.

    But yeah, spring for lessons, don't push yourself too hard, and yeah please please please wear a helmet. Much like seat belts, it seems insane that we didn't use them in the past.

    Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu
    mRahmani
  • LindLind Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Late to the party but I started snowboarding when I was 30+. Like mentioned before find a slope that isnt to steep but also isnt just flat, going slow is super hard at first. Also while you are unlikey to hurt your knees you do end up sitting stil and resting alot and I like to have kneepads on simply for comfort since the snow can be quite hard. Proper protection is a must. Helmet at least but I also like to have backprotection and sometimes I wear wrist protection.

    I found this video of how it looked at the end of day 1 for me (the guy in the yellow pants). I had two friends with me that day to teach me and I while I had never snowboarded before I was used to skiis. That said we have also trained quite a few of our friends that has never been close to a slope before and usually it looks something like this at the end of day 1. What usually happens is you just keep falling over and failing but than somewhere something clicks and you start to get the hang of things.



    edit - thinking about it, this is probably my second day on a board but whatever. Its still a noob :)

    Lind on
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Oh if still buying gear, and leaning towards snowboarding, look for padded pants, specifically padding in the butt and knees, you will be on both a lot.

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
    schuss
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Glare ice isn't edgeable, but the rough boilerplate ice generally is (smoother versions are basically what racers race on). On a board when you lose your edge, you're generally down and sliding, skis you can catch with the inside edge.
    Overall though, do what you feel is most fun, that will keep you coming back.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Oh if still buying gear, and leaning towards snowboarding, look for padded pants, specifically padding in the butt and knees, you will be on both a lot.

    This works for some people maybe but I'd recommend against it. Most people don't need all this padded stuff. Just wear a helmet and learn not to fall on your wrists.

    If you know how to snowboard a patch of bad ice isn't going to take you out because you know how to stay on the flat of the board rather than desperately braking hard into an edge.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I have no idea what the hell people above me are talking about, but I started skiing with my wife when we were both 28.

    Here's the advice I'd give you.

    1) Every time you go skiing / snowboarding / whatever the fuck - take a lesson first. It's usually 20-30 bucks and you start off the day with someone half your age explaining the basics so you can practice them on your runs.

    2) Learn how to fall - especially when you're going too fast. The above mentioned lessons will help.

    3) Once you are convinced you're gonna do this more than two years consecutively go buy your gear. If you don't love it after two years, just keep renting.

    4) 99% of your problems can be fixed by leaning back, and slowing down.

    Seriously, who the fuck is in a rush? Yeah, you 're faster to that beer, but you're faster to that fucking lift up the mountain.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Oh if still buying gear, and leaning towards snowboarding, look for padded pants, specifically padding in the butt and knees, you will be on both a lot.

    This works for some people maybe but I'd recommend against it. Most people don't need all this padded stuff. Just wear a helmet and learn not to fall on your wrists.

    If you know how to snowboard a patch of bad ice isn't going to take you out because you know how to stay on the flat of the board rather than desperately braking hard into an edge.

    Even when a good boarder this is still handy tbh tho, anytime you stop or deboard, yes a lot of times you stay standing, but even without falling you'll spend a lot of time on your knees and butt just sorta chillin.

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
    Abdhyius
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Sidenote: leaning back reduces control and increases speed in most situations on both skis and boards. For boards, you want your weight towards the nose so you can engage the edge and turn. Skis are much the same, but leaning forward also pushes your shins into the tongue of the boot, which is how you control the skis. Leaning back is basically powder only.

    Dirtmuncher
  • BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
    edited March 7
    Not sure if it's against the rules to bump a 2 year old thread but I finally managed to go and learn snowboarding this year! 2 years after asking for advice here :D

    I booked a 3 hour 1:1 course with an instructor and it was definitely useful. I can do heel and toe slides, turns, etc. with confidence after 3 days.

    I am 36 this year and my body really did hurt at times and there were a couple of falls when I was ready to give up but at the end of the day, I don't have any injuries, just sore muscles so I think I have a new hobby.

    Thanks you all for encouraging me :+1:

    Basar on
    i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    You're not going hard enough if you're not sore the day after :+1:

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    The best kind of update. :)

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    edited March 8
    Drink lots of water/other hydrating fluids and stretch afterward to reduce soreness. (People say to stretch beforehand, but I've never noticed a difference. Stretching afterward though does wonders the next day.)

    I hope you can keep enjoying the snowboarding!

    Mayabird on
    Elvenshae
  • RingoRingo HE KEEPS REPEATING THE LINE I'M GONNA CRY BLEASE LET HIM LIVE YOU MADE ME WATCH SO MUCH KISSING IN THIS FILM LET INIGO LIVERegistered User regular
    Most injuries I've seen while skiing are caused by someone trying to keep up with or impress someone who is either reckless (children) or just more experienced skiers. If you are willing to ski within your own experience level you'll be golden until some idiot runs into you. Keep your eyes open for that!

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Drink lots of water/other hydrating fluids and stretch afterward to reduce soreness. (People say to stretch beforehand, but I've never noticed a difference. Stretching afterward though does wonders the next day.)

    I hope you can keep enjoying the snowboarding!

    This goes for pretty much anytime I'm spending a decent amount time doing something physically strenuous.

    Back when I was rollerblading 10 miles a day or biking 15-20 miles a day not specifically taking the time to stretch my back and/or legs out afterwards was always ended up being a monumental mistake upon waking up the next day.

  • BasarBasar IstanbulRegistered User regular
    Forgot to specifically thank @ReaperSMS in the update post. Thanks for all the great info, I actually browsed this thread and re-read your post : )

    ^^^^ I actually drank close to 4-5 liters each day. The weather was very nice as well, sunny and bright, so I sweated a bit more than I anticipated. Definitely a good tip to keep in mind!

    Cheers.

    i live in a country with a batshit crazy president and no, english is not my first language

    ElvenshaeRingoMayabird
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Hot tip for everyone from a long timer of both sports:

    Learn to fall, like purposefully figure out all the ways you fall down and how it feels and what to do. Its the most important skill, especially as you get older.

    It also makes it easier to ski above you level and get better.

    Whippy wrote: »
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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Also - when you're thinking "maybe just one more run...." That means you're done. Nearly all of my injuries come from end of day runs where the muscles are too cooked to respond.

    KetBraElvenshaeBasarRingoDarkewolfeDoodmannJaysonFourOrcatyrannus
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