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Larry Nassar, USA Gymnastics, and Michigan State : Sports Abuse Scandals

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Posts

  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    I'd rather not see MSU dismantled, if that was even possible. For me, it's largely a question of "who is MSU?" The James Madison College students and faculty who led the protests and the vote of no confidence are Spartans, same as the elected-by-gerrymander Trustees that we're stuck with, and hate.

    SummaryJudgment on
    "Will you keep working on it?" asked Man.

    The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

    Man said, "We shall wait."
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    They're statewide, so they're not gerrymandered. It's just staggered so we can't get rid of them all until 2024.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    I'd rather not see MSU dismantled, if that was even possible. For me, it's largely a question of "who is MSU?" The James Madison College students and faculty who led the protests and the vote of no confidence are Spartans, same as the elected-by-gerrymander Trustees that we're stuck with, and hate.

    No one with a functioning brain is demanding MSU be dismantled - the school isn't the problem. As I mentioned a long ways back to people saying 'burn it all down' what exactly does the cyclotron and isotope research program have to do with this, or the Ag research school, or the James Madison poli-sci school, or the vet school? It's the athletics program, and more importantly their, and the school bureaucratic leadership that needs to be kicked out. With all the roadblocks and John Engler's dumb ass in the way of that process.

  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    I’m pretty sure when people say “burn it all down” they mean the athletics program and the administration.

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  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU take MSU's place.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    I'd rather not see MSU dismantled, if that was even possible. For me, it's largely a question of "who is MSU?" The James Madison College students and faculty who led the protests and the vote of no confidence are Spartans, same as the elected-by-gerrymander Trustees that we're stuck with, and hate.

    No one with a functioning brain is demanding MSU be dismantled - the school isn't the problem. As I mentioned a long ways back to people saying 'burn it all down' what exactly does the cyclotron and isotope research program have to do with this, or the Ag research school, or the James Madison poli-sci school, or the vet school? It's the athletics program, and more importantly their, and the school bureaucratic leadership that needs to be kicked out. With all the roadblocks and John Engler's dumb ass in the way of that process.

    The problem here is the same problem being faced by the Catholic Church. How does one go about assigning culpability to the unrelated individual pieces of the same bureaucratic facade?

    Also similar to the church is how one is unable to easily or practically separate those unrelated individual pieces from the whole. As the facade benefited through the generosity and fame brought by the athletic program, those unrelated individual parts benefited through the same. It can be argued, and I believe it can be argued rather well, that the unrelated bits were able to continue to exist, have larger budgets, and recruit & retain a better student body because of the athletic department. Therefore to answer the first question, one cannot separate the unrelated departments from the university and shield them from the consequences as they all share, and benefit from, the same root.

    Were one looking to punish the university one must punish the whole of the university for the actions of one man and those who chose to be his accomplices. If one wants to restructure things so that this does not happen again in the future, one must also restructure the university so that no one department has that much sway on the whole's functioning. Or if that isn't possible, one must then put in the controls such that the individual, unrelated departments have the ability to inspect and protect themselves from the actions of the other departments.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Fly the flag, you carry the bag.

  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU take MSU's place.

    Probably not. Athletic programs have been using the excuse that they bring in money to the schools, but most of the time they don't. The money the athletic programs make are just plowed back into more athletics, and usually on top of that the schools themselves subsidize the athletic programs. Some of those rising tuition and fee costs are due to that money being used for stadiums and paying coaches. So yes, burn down the athletic programs. MSU as a whole will probably be for better (and cheaper) for it.

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  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    V1m wrote: »
    Fly the flag, you carry the bag.

    That's pithy, but I'd prefer a less collateral-damaging way of dealing with this instead of blowing a hole in Michigan's workforce and leaving students with the choice between UM (wealthy legacy and and foreign exchange students) and #200+ ranked schools, or out-of-state tuition.

    Coincidentially, the student body and faculty are out in open protest against the administration, how much can you really say they're "flying the flag"

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Anyone who helped cover it up is out. Anyone who tried to defend it is out. Burn the disease out root and branch.

    If this takes out a crippling amount of the administration, then good riddance to them.

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Anyone who helped cover it up is out. Anyone who tried to defend it is out. Burn the disease out root and branch.

    If this takes out a crippling amount of the administration, then good riddance to them.

    Yeah I don't really see why this is so hard. Everyone in the chain from Nassar to the school president is fired. Anyone who helped cover it up or were negligent is also fired. This may have some knock on effects on other departments as replacing the entire administration at once will have difficulties but they'll just need to deal with it.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU take MSU's place.

    Probably not. Athletic programs have been using the excuse that they bring in money to the schools, but most of the time they don't. The money the athletic programs make are just plowed back into more athletics, and usually on top of that the schools themselves subsidize the athletic programs. Some of those rising tuition and fee costs are due to that money being used for stadiums and paying coaches. So yes, burn down the athletic programs. MSU as a whole will probably be for better (and cheaper) for it.

    It really isn't that simple. Athletic success increases applications and quality of students who apply, that attracts more funding, if athletics were destroyed they'd be thrown out of the Big Ten and lose the research lobbying dollars that comes with that.

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  • SunrizeSunrize Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU take MSU's place.

    Probably not. Athletic programs have been using the excuse that they bring in money to the schools, but most of the time they don't. The money the athletic programs make are just plowed back into more athletics, and usually on top of that the schools themselves subsidize the athletic programs. Some of those rising tuition and fee costs are due to that money being used for stadiums and paying coaches. So yes, burn down the athletic programs. MSU as a whole will probably be for better (and cheaper) for it.

    It really isn't that simple. Athletic success increases applications and quality of students who apply, that attracts more funding, if athletics were destroyed they'd be thrown out of the Big Ten and lose the research lobbying dollars that comes with that.

    Schools also don't include Alumni donations as a proceed of athletic success, even though they are highly correlated.

    Elvenshae
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And Sparty is hiring lawyers for Perles:
    Michigan State University is hiring an outside law firm to assist Trustee George Perles in responding to allegations made in a lawsuit this week that he intervened after an MSU athlete reported she'd been raped by Larry Nassar and that the complaint was dropped shortly after.

    “We are in the process of retaining counsel and once retained, Mr. Perles’ counsel will speak for him,” Robert Young, vice president and general counsel for the university, wrote in an email on Wednesday.

    Why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot like this?

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  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    And Sparty is hiring lawyers for Perles:
    Michigan State University is hiring an outside law firm to assist Trustee George Perles in responding to allegations made in a lawsuit this week that he intervened after an MSU athlete reported she'd been raped by Larry Nassar and that the complaint was dropped shortly after.

    “We are in the process of retaining counsel and once retained, Mr. Perles’ counsel will speak for him,” Robert Young, vice president and general counsel for the university, wrote in an email on Wednesday.

    Why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot like this?

    Deny, deny, deny, and then settle with a NDA.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    And Sparty is hiring lawyers for Perles:
    Michigan State University is hiring an outside law firm to assist Trustee George Perles in responding to allegations made in a lawsuit this week that he intervened after an MSU athlete reported she'd been raped by Larry Nassar and that the complaint was dropped shortly after.

    “We are in the process of retaining counsel and once retained, Mr. Perles’ counsel will speak for him,” Robert Young, vice president and general counsel for the university, wrote in an email on Wednesday.

    Why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot like this?

    I'm sure its part of the contract.

    But also there should be a nullification clause for morally bankrupt awfulness. And even if there isn't, that's a contract you break.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    And Sparty is hiring lawyers for Perles:
    Michigan State University is hiring an outside law firm to assist Trustee George Perles in responding to allegations made in a lawsuit this week that he intervened after an MSU athlete reported she'd been raped by Larry Nassar and that the complaint was dropped shortly after.

    “We are in the process of retaining counsel and once retained, Mr. Perles’ counsel will speak for him,” Robert Young, vice president and general counsel for the university, wrote in an email on Wednesday.

    Why do you keep shooting yourselves in the foot like this?

    Because money. As in the money one brings in as part of their being a "Trustee".

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Mayabird wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU take MSU's place.

    Probably not. Athletic programs have been using the excuse that they bring in money to the schools, but most of the time they don't. The money the athletic programs make are just plowed back into more athletics, and usually on top of that the schools themselves subsidize the athletic programs. Some of those rising tuition and fee costs are due to that money being used for stadiums and paying coaches. So yes, burn down the athletic programs. MSU as a whole will probably be for better (and cheaper) for it.

    It really isn't that simple. Athletic success increases applications and quality of students who apply, that attracts more funding, if athletics were destroyed they'd be thrown out of the Big Ten and lose the research lobbying dollars that comes with that.

    Also, when the say "most athletic programs don't make bank" it's ignoring that only a fraction of schools have a big program with games on TV every week and a dedicated seat row for talent scouts. Plenty of programs bring in truly astounding amounts of money, directly o indirectly.

    Saginaw Valley State University and Northwood University in Michigan do not make money on their athletic program. Michigan State University and University of Michigan would be financially hobbled without theirs.

    Hevach on
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    For what it’s worth, MSUs total budget including athletics was 1.5 billion last year. Athletic department profit revenue was 100 million.

    VishNub on
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    VishNub wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, MSUs total budget including athletics was 1.5 billion last year. Athletic department profit was 100 million.

    And that's the profit - you know, what's left over after funneling the vast majority right back into the athletics department. Exactly how much of the total budget is athletics?

    DarkPrimus on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, MSUs total budget including athletics was 1.5 billion last year. Athletic department profit was 100 million.

    And that's the profit - you know, what's left over after funneling the vast majority right back into the athletics department. Exactly how much of the total budget is athletics?

    That is not the profit, that's revenue. Nobody comes anywhere near making that much profit on athletics (because it's funneled into administrative bloat to avoid paying players, but still!). Officially MSU was completely budget neutral on athletics in 2017-2018. I think they actually operated at about a ten million dollar loss, which came from the university's general fund.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Oh, okay, so the non-athletics stuff pays (or rather, resources are diverted away from them) for the athletics department, which then generates a bunch of money that it doesn't share with the rest of the school?

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  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, MSUs total budget including athletics was 1.5 billion last year. Athletic department profit was 100 million.

    And that's the profit - you know, what's left over after funneling the vast majority right back into the athletics department. Exactly how much of the total budget is athletics?

    That is not the profit, that's revenue. Nobody comes anywhere near making that much profit on athletics (because it's funneled into administrative bloat to avoid paying players, but still!). Officially MSU was completely budget neutral on athletics in 2017-2018. I think they actually operated at about a ten million dollar loss, which came from the university's general fund.

    Yeah, sorry. I was loose with terms. I fixed it above. You're correct about the athletic budget being formally neutral.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oh, okay, so the non-athletics stuff pays (or rather, resources are diverted away from them) for the athletics department, which then generates a bunch of money that it doesn't share with the rest of the school?

    Depends on the year (two years ago, they got 2 million), but yeah basically. Only a couple schools turn a profit on paper because they funnel it all to associate athletic directors and coaches and what not. But I think we're falling off topic?

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    VishNub
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Oh, okay, so the non-athletics stuff pays (or rather, resources are diverted away from them) for the athletics department, which then generates a bunch of money that it doesn't share with the rest of the school?

    Depends on the year (two years ago, they got 2 million), but yeah basically. Only a couple schools turn a profit on paper because they funnel it all to associate athletic directors and coaches and what not. But I think we're falling off topic?

    Well, to bring it back on topic -- nuking the athletic department would not (directly) alter the finances of the research/academic portions of the university.

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  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    The reality is, for the vast majority of schools, athletics is a net financial loss.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    The entire school benefits from the income the athletic program brings in, I'm okay with saying "burn it all down."

    Let CMU WMU take MSU's place.

    Fixed that for you, hehe. But honestly, I'd be happy with any of the directional Michigans stepping up and taking the place as a respected school that actually gives a damn about the people there instead of Sparty- at least, until the infection there is burned clean.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Add WSU to the list with an overly randy AD preying on female students:
    Last Thursday, The Daily Evergreen, the WSU student paper, broke the initial story, citing documents obtained through a public records request that proved Gesser’s behavior dated back at least four years. The first complaint surfaced in November 2014, when a donor complained that Gesser brought a former Cougars women’s basketball player back to their house at 4:00 a.m. That was followed by a report that Gesser slept with an intern, and another 2015 incident involving a former Washington State volleyball player, Alyssa Bodeau. The same day, Washington State’s spokesperson released a statement claiming, “the university followed its established procedures to review the matter and found no violation of Washington State University policy.”

    On Friday, Gesser called the report from the student paper a “non-story” and denied any sort of sexual misconduct, saying the Evergreen’s piece was based on “unfounded accusations.” According to the Evergreen and the Spokesman Review, the official university investigation stalled when the victims refused to speak with officials out of fear of backlash, according to multiple interviews.

    Gesser was only placed on leave by Washington State on Monday, after Bodeau decided to speak publicly about Gesser’s behavior toward her with the Evergreen.

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  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    edited September 2018
    Never mind, I was trying to explain who exactly he is but the article goes into it

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Kind of surprising with the kind of rep that WSU has as a party school its someone in their management that has the first major sex scandal.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Kind of surprising with the kind of rep that WSU has as a party school its someone in their management that has the first major sex scandal.

    The first they've failed to suppress, perhaps.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Women are testifying against Kathie Klages in a preliminary hearing today. Because the universe is funny like that.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Klages trial set to move forward after the prelim hearing. Defense vows to take it to trial.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And because MSU isn't content shooting themselves in only one foot, they're picking up part of the bill for Strampel and Klages:
    The university is picking up the tab to defend each of the former MSU employees against criminal charges stemming from what prosecutors say was no supervision of Nassar after sexual assault charges surfaced and lying about being aware of such charges. The former MSU doctor, now serving time, is accused of assaulting more than 200 students and athletes over many years.

    MSU is paying for the defense under a university policy requiring it to cover the cost of attorneys for its employees when they are in court for actions taken in the course of their employment.

    MSU isn't paying for defense of other criminal charges Strampel faces, university spokeswoman Emily Guerrant told the Free Press. Klages only faces charges of lying to the police about the Nassar investigation.

    This is stupid. The idea for the policy is to protect employees who are in trials for actions taken in good faith for the university, which is not what is happening in this case.

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  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    Hmm. I wonder if that actually exposes the university to more liability, since the argument could be made that paying those fees is tacit support for their actions.

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  • Trajan45Trajan45 Registered User regular
    Ugh disgusting commercial for bill schuette with parents of kids in the Larry Nassar case.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    USAG has appointed Mary Bono as interim CEO, which has already been fraught with controversy.

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    USAG has appointed Mary Bono as interim CEO, which has already been fraught with controversy.

    <no, no, dig up, stupid.gif>

    I'd expect nothing else from a well-connected, well-off individual who used to be a Republican representative (who the 'Pubs wanted to put on the House Judiciary Committee back in '98 "in anticipation of the consideration of impeachment proceedings against President Clinton") from CA.

  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    I appreciate that Simone Biles rightly called them out on this shit and pointed out the stupidity of choosing someone who took part in the Nike protest bullshit. Under Armour walked away from them because of the Nassar taint, probably best not to be antagonistic to one of the other largest athletic gear companies.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    I appreciate that Simone Biles rightly called them out on this shit and pointed out the stupidity of choosing someone who took part in the Nike protest bullshit. Under Armour walked away from them because of the Nassar taint, probably best not to be antagonistic to one of the other largest athletic gear companies.

    The bigger point is that Bono "apologized" and deleted the tweet, which is something Steve Penny would have never done. It's clear that Biles is in the driver's seat.

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