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Larry Nassar, USA Gymnastics, and Michigan State : Sports Abuse Scandals

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Posts

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    I remember watching an episode of The Good Wife where a lawyer was allowed to be present at the arbitration hearings, but the lawyer was only allowed to observe, not participate in any way (including giving advice to her client during the hearings). I thought this seemed really weird and probably unrealistic, but apparently the reality is even worse.

    Anyhow, I might be wrong but I always assumed that the ultimate purpose of these guidelines has been to limit the legal exposure of schools: give them the tools to step in before a situation gets to the point where they have a hugely expensive lawsuit in their hands. Won't these more relaxed guidelines actually increase their exposure in cases where actual criminal or civil litigation become applicable?

    The guidelines were an attempt to force schools to actually respond to reports of sexual abuse in measurable and fair* ways, and be held responsible if they didn't do so

    These relaxed guidelines make things worse for victims and go lighter on the schools. Schools will still be cognizant of legal suits from private citizens (which are rare), but the big hammer was always the federal government, and the new guidelines give schools a lot more room to act like assholes to victims and not respond to complaints.

    Not that Devos's agency was moving any Title ix investigations forward anyway, as far as I know that's been as low a priority as possible since she's been appointed

    *for certain LACKING definitions of fair, in my opinion

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    That can all be true, though it doesn't dispute that cross examination by the accused themselves is not allowed by rule. I'm simply correcting a factual error being repeated here that has been misreported by several organizations.


    my point was, even if what you said is true, it doesn't really change the fact that these proposed changes are quite bad

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    What the Obama guidelines began and Devos is furthering is forcing schools to set up quasi-courts to determine whether an accused student will face consequences within the purview of the school after an accusation of sexual abuse. This is never going to be a good experience for victims of sexual abuse. Our current legal system is not a good experience for victims of sexual abuse. And that one ostensibly has rules of evidence and somewhat uniform procedures with all states having at least a modicum of victim rights alongside defendant rights.

    I think Obama's guidelines (often cited as confusing, resulting in several different types of approaches taken by schools) were a nice idea but weren't fully formed and started us down this path to MRAs screaming "DUE PROCESS FOR MEN" about a process that, at its worst, results in someone being expelled from a school, not put in jail, or fined, or having any other aspect of their freedom harmed.

    As we are seeing, the Dear John letter under Obama hasn't made much of a dent in the ingrained culture of covering up, brushing aside, and outright endorsing systematic sexual abuse at colleges and universities. We need major reform and guidance from federal down to state, and Devos is basically the exact opposite of that.

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    I remember watching an episode of The Good Wife where a lawyer was allowed to be present at the arbitration hearings, but the lawyer was only allowed to observe, not participate in any way (including giving advice to her client during the hearings). I thought this seemed really weird and probably unrealistic, but apparently the reality is even worse.

    Anyhow, I might be wrong but I always assumed that the ultimate purpose of these guidelines has been to limit the legal exposure of schools: give them the tools to step in before a situation gets to the point where they have a hugely expensive lawsuit in their hands. Won't these more relaxed guidelines actually increase their exposure in cases where actual criminal or civil litigation become applicable?

    There's a Good Wife episode for every shitty thing coming up the last 2 years.

    Bliss 101So It Goesshryke
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And today's ghouls - the University of North Texas:
    A freshman student at the University of North Texas reported last year to her resident assistant that she was sexually assaulted by members of the college basketball team, according to a recent report by WFAA-TV in Dallas. The RA reported it to campus authorities. Then, hours after the report was made by the RA, two of the men named as possible suspects called the woman and suggested that she join an escort service one of them was running, WFAA’s Charlotte Huffman reported on Thursday.

    “It almost seemed like they heard it before,” the woman told WFAA about the phone call. “It didn’t shock them like they shocked me.”

    What the fuck is wrong with these people?

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 20
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon lied to police in the Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    Couscous on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    I repeat: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    What an utter failure of her Duty of Care. She should never be given any position more responsible than 'carpark shopping trolley collector'.

    Martini_Philosopher
  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    What an utter failure of her Duty of Care. She should never be given any position more responsible than 'carpark shopping trolley collector'.

    I wouldn't trust her with a shopping cart that close to my car.

    AngelHedgiePolaritieTynnanshrykeMartini_PhilosopherBullheadBlackDragon480FencingsaxTNTrooperAegistynicSorceMoridin889Magell
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    I repeat: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

    A lack of accountability up to this point combined with the twin mandates of win at any cost while protecting everyone (nobody).

    In manufacturing circles there is this concept of the "core, chronic conflict" which has to do with how businesses have competing mandates to deliver on. e.g. Keeping the price of manufacture low while also ensuring the efficient and timely delivery of product. Here we have the same thing with the conflict being one of bodily safety and security weighed against the profit & prestige these (semi-)professional sports bring to the university. While most manufactures have been able to figure out how to deal with their core, chronic conflicts by acknowledging shortcomings in their processes and then addressing them, sports have not yet done so. Sports at all levels continue to run dishonest organizations where needed change is buried because the powers at large refuse to acknowledge them, see: the ongoing NFL kneeling controversy.

    There are further depths to analyze this but I think it's summed up sufficiently in toxic masculinity, authoritarianism, and insufficient checks on power.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    Here's another part of this fiasco:
    MSU will pay for Simon's legal fees, an MSU spokeswoman said. The university is paying for former gymnastics coach Kathie Klages' attorneys and for part of the criminal defense of former dean William Strampel.

    It never ends.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    MSU continues to be a profile in cowardice:
    The search for Michigan State University's next permanent president will be confidential, the 19-member committee leading the effort said Wednesday.

    "The (university's Board of Trustees) and the search committee also have had extensive discussions about whether the search should be open or confidential," MSU Trustees Dianne Byrum and Melanie Foster said Wednesday in a letter to alumni and staff. "In order to draw the strongest pool of candidates, the search for the next MSU president will be confidential."

    Byrum and Foster are also co-chairs of the university's presidential search committee, which has been charged with finding candidates to replace Interim President John Engler.

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  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    MSU continues to be a profile in cowardice:
    The search for Michigan State University's next permanent president will be confidential, the 19-member committee leading the effort said Wednesday.

    "The (university's Board of Trustees) and the search committee also have had extensive discussions about whether the search should be open or confidential," MSU Trustees Dianne Byrum and Melanie Foster said Wednesday in a letter to alumni and staff. "In order to draw the strongest pool of candidates, the search for the next MSU president will be confidential."

    Byrum and Foster are also co-chairs of the university's presidential search committee, which has been charged with finding candidates to replace Interim President John Engler.

    I'm reading about the trustees, there, but I don't see any comment from anyone maybe more fairly associated as "the university"

    The two that were up lost their re-election bids.

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    The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

    Man said, "We shall wait."
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Well, didn't run. Two more years til we can knock out a couple more. State Democratic Party better not nominate fucking Ferguson again. Mosallum is almost vaguely tolerable and he's the other one up.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    SummaryJudgment
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Oh, and MSU doesn't just fail its students, athletes, and the community with regards to sexual harassment and assault.

    It fails its faculty as well.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Trustee Perles has resigned, citing his health (84 + Parkinson's). He's a direct party to one of the various lawsuits from his team as AD.

    Snyder gets to appoint a replacement to finish his term. Whitmer takes office on January 1, so if Snyder dilly dallies she would get to. I would imagine that if Snyder makes the appointment, the board will remain 4-4 on Engler, if Whitmer does it will be 5-3 for firing the bastard.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Trustee Perles has resigned, citing his health (84 + Parkinson's). He's a direct party to one of the various lawsuits from his team as AD.

    Snyder gets to appoint a replacement to finish his term. Whitmer takes office on January 1, so if Snyder dilly dallies she would get to. I would imagine that if Snyder makes the appointment, the board will remain 4-4 on Engler, if Whitmer does it will be 5-3 for firing the bastard.

    And that's why he resigned now, rather than wait a whole month.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
    Elvenshaenever dieJaysonFourRhesus PositiveThawmusSorce
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Engler continues to be a goose of Dickensian proportion:
    Four Michigan State University board members are condemning the move by interim President John Engler to close a $10 million fund set aside to pay for counseling and other services for people sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar.

    Oh, but he has a reason!
    In a memo to trustees, Engler said closing the fund early "permits us to use the $8.6 million remaining balance in the Healing Fund to reduce the amount of our borrowing to pay the settlement."

    Kindly go fuck yourself, Engler.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited December 5
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    BullheadElvenshaeMoridin889
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
    ElvenshaeAegis
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    That pause button also hits the process of discovering who knew what when. Total coincidence that.

    ElvenshaeMartini_PhilosopherMoridin889
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    That pause button also hits the process of discovering who knew what when. Total coincidence that.

    This, I feel, is where some cabinet level official steps in & files a friend of the court petition stating that USA Gymnastics isn't going to be a thing going forward and asks the court to not allow the bankruptcy to happen. In a competent, non-corrupt administration, that is. I would think that the Dept of Education should be that, but given how their current leaders feel towards Title-IX, I don't see them stepping in no matter how bad this situation has become.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Notre Dame's athletic director was apparently counsel to USAG and refusing to talk to the law firm investigating what went wrong. Among other people. That list includes:

    Both Karolyis.
    Fran Sepler, who conducted the interviews with Raisman, Maroney, and Nichols before they bothered to report to the authorities.
    Debbie Van Horn, Nassar's co-trainer and recently indicted in her own right for assault
    FBI Special Agent Jay Abbott, the guy Steve Penny finally did report Nassar to after much delay
    Brooke Lemmon, the doctor who removed patient files at MSU

    This report also led to the new as of today firing of USOC chief of sport performance Alan Ashley.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And the Waco judical system gives a Baylor fratboy rapist a sweetheart deal:
    A former fraternity president at Baylor University who was accused of raping a woman at a party accepted a plea deal on Monday that allowed him to escape jail time and avoid registering as a sex offender, according to the Associated Press. Victims’ rights advocates have expressed outrage toward the case’s Texas judge, who has twice before approved probation for men accused of sexually assaulting Baylor students.

    The judge (who, like former CA judge Aaron Persky, has a history of giving deals to sexual abusers) and the prosecution are justifying the miscarriage of justice by saying that the public doesn't know the full story:
    According to the Star-Telegram, the prosecutor, Hilary LaBorde, defended the plea deal by saying conflicting statements and evidence made the allegations hard to prove and the no-contest deal was the best possible outcome. State District Judge Ralph Strother said Monday that much of the outrage from the public was misplaced and that many people reaching out to him were “not fully informed, misinformed, or totally uninformed.” The alleged victim’s attorney called the agreement a “sweetheart deal.” According to reports from local media, the woman, who had asked the judge to reject the plea deal and set a trial date so she could testify in court, began crying loudly.

    Strother needs to not be a judge anymore.

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