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Larry Nassar, USA Gymnastics, and Michigan State : Sports Abuse Scandals

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Posts

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    I remember watching an episode of The Good Wife where a lawyer was allowed to be present at the arbitration hearings, but the lawyer was only allowed to observe, not participate in any way (including giving advice to her client during the hearings). I thought this seemed really weird and probably unrealistic, but apparently the reality is even worse.

    Anyhow, I might be wrong but I always assumed that the ultimate purpose of these guidelines has been to limit the legal exposure of schools: give them the tools to step in before a situation gets to the point where they have a hugely expensive lawsuit in their hands. Won't these more relaxed guidelines actually increase their exposure in cases where actual criminal or civil litigation become applicable?

    The guidelines were an attempt to force schools to actually respond to reports of sexual abuse in measurable and fair* ways, and be held responsible if they didn't do so

    These relaxed guidelines make things worse for victims and go lighter on the schools. Schools will still be cognizant of legal suits from private citizens (which are rare), but the big hammer was always the federal government, and the new guidelines give schools a lot more room to act like assholes to victims and not respond to complaints.

    Not that Devos's agency was moving any Title ix investigations forward anyway, as far as I know that's been as low a priority as possible since she's been appointed

    *for certain LACKING definitions of fair, in my opinion

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    That can all be true, though it doesn't dispute that cross examination by the accused themselves is not allowed by rule. I'm simply correcting a factual error being repeated here that has been misreported by several organizations.


    my point was, even if what you said is true, it doesn't really change the fact that these proposed changes are quite bad

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    What the Obama guidelines began and Devos is furthering is forcing schools to set up quasi-courts to determine whether an accused student will face consequences within the purview of the school after an accusation of sexual abuse. This is never going to be a good experience for victims of sexual abuse. Our current legal system is not a good experience for victims of sexual abuse. And that one ostensibly has rules of evidence and somewhat uniform procedures with all states having at least a modicum of victim rights alongside defendant rights.

    I think Obama's guidelines (often cited as confusing, resulting in several different types of approaches taken by schools) were a nice idea but weren't fully formed and started us down this path to MRAs screaming "DUE PROCESS FOR MEN" about a process that, at its worst, results in someone being expelled from a school, not put in jail, or fined, or having any other aspect of their freedom harmed.

    As we are seeing, the Dear John letter under Obama hasn't made much of a dent in the ingrained culture of covering up, brushing aside, and outright endorsing systematic sexual abuse at colleges and universities. We need major reform and guidance from federal down to state, and Devos is basically the exact opposite of that.

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    lwt1973 wrote: »
    DeVos is wanting to change Title IX rules.

    It astounds me that someone is trying to make it harder for anyone to report sexual assault.
    The new regulations change the evidentiary standard for Title IX sexual harassment proceedings. Under the new rules, schools may use either the preponderance standard or the “clear and convincing” standard in sexual harassment cases (the rules use the term “sexual harassment” to encompass both harassment and assault), but they must use the same standard for allegations against students as they use for those involving employees, including faculty.

    They raise the bar for what counts as sexual harassment under Title IX. The 2011 guidelines defined sexual harassment as “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature.” But the new rules set a stricter standard for what constitutes harassment, defining it as “unwelcome conduct on the basis of sex that is so severe, pervasive and objectively offensive that it denies a person access to the school’s education program or activity.”

    They make it harder to find schools legally responsible for failing to address harassment. Under the 2011 rules, schools could be held responsible for failing to act if they knew about or “reasonably should” have known about an episode of harassment or assault. Under the new guidelines, the school must have “actual knowledge” of the episode in order to be held responsible.

    At universities, the survivor must also make a formal complaint through official channels, meaning that telling a professor or resident adviser isn’t sufficient, as Meckler noted. And schools can only be held responsible for incidents that happen on school property or at school-sponsored events, not at private, off-campus residences.

    This is very bad

    The changes also requires schools that hold hearings to provide the accused an opportunity to cross examine the victim

    Many schools currently let both parties testify but don't allow any direct cross examination for reasons I would hope would be obvious

    It allows the accused's advisor to cross examine, not the accused themselves.

    if you are allowing students to have lawyers (I have not heard of a school in my area that actually allows lawyers to be in these hearings as actual advocates) who do cross examination, you need to have an environment where rules of evidence apply and a neutral arbiter applies them

    This is extremely not the case when the neutral arbiter is a panel of school employees, who very much have an incentive (whether on purpose or sub consciously) to protect their school's reputation, and also very often have little to no training on the dynamics of sexual assault or how evidence of sexual assault should be evaluated, all happening in a forum where zero rules of evidence apply

    Make no mistake- these school hearings are already a disaster for most victims who go through them. DeVos's policy will make them ten times worse.

    I remember watching an episode of The Good Wife where a lawyer was allowed to be present at the arbitration hearings, but the lawyer was only allowed to observe, not participate in any way (including giving advice to her client during the hearings). I thought this seemed really weird and probably unrealistic, but apparently the reality is even worse.

    Anyhow, I might be wrong but I always assumed that the ultimate purpose of these guidelines has been to limit the legal exposure of schools: give them the tools to step in before a situation gets to the point where they have a hugely expensive lawsuit in their hands. Won't these more relaxed guidelines actually increase their exposure in cases where actual criminal or civil litigation become applicable?

    There's a Good Wife episode for every shitty thing coming up the last 2 years.

    Bliss 101So It Goesshryke
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And today's ghouls - the University of North Texas:
    A freshman student at the University of North Texas reported last year to her resident assistant that she was sexually assaulted by members of the college basketball team, according to a recent report by WFAA-TV in Dallas. The RA reported it to campus authorities. Then, hours after the report was made by the RA, two of the men named as possible suspects called the woman and suggested that she join an escort service one of them was running, WFAA’s Charlotte Huffman reported on Thursday.

    “It almost seemed like they heard it before,” the woman told WFAA about the phone call. “It didn’t shock them like they shocked me.”

    What the fuck is wrong with these people?

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon lied to police in the Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    Couscous on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    I repeat: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    What an utter failure of her Duty of Care. She should never be given any position more responsible than 'carpark shopping trolley collector'.

    Martini_Philosopher
  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    What an utter failure of her Duty of Care. She should never be given any position more responsible than 'carpark shopping trolley collector'.

    I wouldn't trust her with a shopping cart that close to my car.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Ex-MSU president Lou Anna Simon with lying to police in Nassar sexual assault case and is now charged for it.

    Time reporter:

    I repeat: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

    A lack of accountability up to this point combined with the twin mandates of win at any cost while protecting everyone (nobody).

    In manufacturing circles there is this concept of the "core, chronic conflict" which has to do with how businesses have competing mandates to deliver on. e.g. Keeping the price of manufacture low while also ensuring the efficient and timely delivery of product. Here we have the same thing with the conflict being one of bodily safety and security weighed against the profit & prestige these (semi-)professional sports bring to the university. While most manufactures have been able to figure out how to deal with their core, chronic conflicts by acknowledging shortcomings in their processes and then addressing them, sports have not yet done so. Sports at all levels continue to run dishonest organizations where needed change is buried because the powers at large refuse to acknowledge them, see: the ongoing NFL kneeling controversy.

    There are further depths to analyze this but I think it's summed up sufficiently in toxic masculinity, authoritarianism, and insufficient checks on power.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    Here's another part of this fiasco:
    MSU will pay for Simon's legal fees, an MSU spokeswoman said. The university is paying for former gymnastics coach Kathie Klages' attorneys and for part of the criminal defense of former dean William Strampel.

    It never ends.

    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    MSU continues to be a profile in cowardice:
    The search for Michigan State University's next permanent president will be confidential, the 19-member committee leading the effort said Wednesday.

    "The (university's Board of Trustees) and the search committee also have had extensive discussions about whether the search should be open or confidential," MSU Trustees Dianne Byrum and Melanie Foster said Wednesday in a letter to alumni and staff. "In order to draw the strongest pool of candidates, the search for the next MSU president will be confidential."

    Byrum and Foster are also co-chairs of the university's presidential search committee, which has been charged with finding candidates to replace Interim President John Engler.

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  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    MSU continues to be a profile in cowardice:
    The search for Michigan State University's next permanent president will be confidential, the 19-member committee leading the effort said Wednesday.

    "The (university's Board of Trustees) and the search committee also have had extensive discussions about whether the search should be open or confidential," MSU Trustees Dianne Byrum and Melanie Foster said Wednesday in a letter to alumni and staff. "In order to draw the strongest pool of candidates, the search for the next MSU president will be confidential."

    Byrum and Foster are also co-chairs of the university's presidential search committee, which has been charged with finding candidates to replace Interim President John Engler.

    I'm reading about the trustees, there, but I don't see any comment from anyone maybe more fairly associated as "the university"

    The two that were up lost their re-election bids.

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    The Cosmic AC said, "I WILL."

    Man said, "We shall wait."
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Well, didn't run. Two more years til we can knock out a couple more. State Democratic Party better not nominate fucking Ferguson again. Mosallum is almost vaguely tolerable and he's the other one up.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    SummaryJudgment
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Oh, and MSU doesn't just fail its students, athletes, and the community with regards to sexual harassment and assault.

    It fails its faculty as well.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Trustee Perles has resigned, citing his health (84 + Parkinson's). He's a direct party to one of the various lawsuits from his team as AD.

    Snyder gets to appoint a replacement to finish his term. Whitmer takes office on January 1, so if Snyder dilly dallies she would get to. I would imagine that if Snyder makes the appointment, the board will remain 4-4 on Engler, if Whitmer does it will be 5-3 for firing the bastard.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Trustee Perles has resigned, citing his health (84 + Parkinson's). He's a direct party to one of the various lawsuits from his team as AD.

    Snyder gets to appoint a replacement to finish his term. Whitmer takes office on January 1, so if Snyder dilly dallies she would get to. I would imagine that if Snyder makes the appointment, the board will remain 4-4 on Engler, if Whitmer does it will be 5-3 for firing the bastard.

    And that's why he resigned now, rather than wait a whole month.

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
    Elvenshaenever dieJaysonFourRhesus PositiveThawmusSorce
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Engler continues to be a goose of Dickensian proportion:
    Four Michigan State University board members are condemning the move by interim President John Engler to close a $10 million fund set aside to pay for counseling and other services for people sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar.

    Oh, but he has a reason!
    In a memo to trustees, Engler said closing the fund early "permits us to use the $8.6 million remaining balance in the Healing Fund to reduce the amount of our borrowing to pay the settlement."

    Kindly go fuck yourself, Engler.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    BullheadElvenshaeMoridin889
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
    ElvenshaeAegis
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    That pause button also hits the process of discovering who knew what when. Total coincidence that.

    ElvenshaeMartini_PhilosopherMoridin889
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    USA Gymnastics is filing for bankruptcy, but claims that this will not affect payouts in the 100+ lawsuits it is currently facing from Nassar's victims.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/us/usa-gymnastics-files-for-bankruptcy/index.html

    Unless the insurance companies decide to cover the payouts for the obviously negligent behavior of the organization, I'm pretty sure this is going to have some impact.

    According to the filings insurance may not cover everything.

    The thing I'd like to point out in that article is that USA Gymnastics quotes don't help and makes them look even more scummy. Their supposed motivation is to bring a close to all the current lawsuits while being able to maintain their position of being in charge of Olympic level competition stuff in the US. How does that happen? Well, going into bankruptcy pushes the pause button on all ongoing litigation. Which means the suit USOC is using to kick them out of that leadership position also gets paused.

    In conclusion, the scummy scum that are running things are doing scummy things in order to be allowed to keep running things, largely as an act of spite afaict.

    That pause button also hits the process of discovering who knew what when. Total coincidence that.

    This, I feel, is where some cabinet level official steps in & files a friend of the court petition stating that USA Gymnastics isn't going to be a thing going forward and asks the court to not allow the bankruptcy to happen. In a competent, non-corrupt administration, that is. I would think that the Dept of Education should be that, but given how their current leaders feel towards Title-IX, I don't see them stepping in no matter how bad this situation has become.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Notre Dame's athletic director was apparently counsel to USAG and refusing to talk to the law firm investigating what went wrong. Among other people. That list includes:

    Both Karolyis.
    Fran Sepler, who conducted the interviews with Raisman, Maroney, and Nichols before they bothered to report to the authorities.
    Debbie Van Horn, Nassar's co-trainer and recently indicted in her own right for assault
    FBI Special Agent Jay Abbott, the guy Steve Penny finally did report Nassar to after much delay
    Brooke Lemmon, the doctor who removed patient files at MSU

    This report also led to the new as of today firing of USOC chief of sport performance Alan Ashley.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And the Waco judical system gives a Baylor fratboy rapist a sweetheart deal:
    A former fraternity president at Baylor University who was accused of raping a woman at a party accepted a plea deal on Monday that allowed him to escape jail time and avoid registering as a sex offender, according to the Associated Press. Victims’ rights advocates have expressed outrage toward the case’s Texas judge, who has twice before approved probation for men accused of sexually assaulting Baylor students.

    The judge (who, like former CA judge Aaron Persky, has a history of giving deals to sexual abusers) and the prosecution are justifying the miscarriage of justice by saying that the public doesn't know the full story:
    According to the Star-Telegram, the prosecutor, Hilary LaBorde, defended the plea deal by saying conflicting statements and evidence made the allegations hard to prove and the no-contest deal was the best possible outcome. State District Judge Ralph Strother said Monday that much of the outrage from the public was misplaced and that many people reaching out to him were “not fully informed, misinformed, or totally uninformed.” The alleged victim’s attorney called the agreement a “sweetheart deal.” According to reports from local media, the woman, who had asked the judge to reject the plea deal and set a trial date so she could testify in court, began crying loudly.

    Strother needs to not be a judge anymore.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And in further sweetheart deals, an arbitrator lifts a ban on a rapist because his victim understandably refused to testify:
    Zampetti chose not to testify at the hearing; she and her attorney both cited civil litigation as one factor, and her lack of trust in SafeSport as another:
    “I declined to be questioned by SafeSport because I don’t believe they are here to help us,” Zampetti said via text message with USA TODAY Sports. “They are only trying to help themselves. If I would have answered those questions I believe they still would have lifted the ban. I will just give my statement in real court when the day comes.”

    The arbitrator's logic is breathtakingly fucked up:
    Zampetti’s declining to testify weighed heavily in the decision by arbitrator Jeff Kaplan, according to USA Today, which obtained a copy. So did Lopez’s apparent distress at the allegations:
    Because Zampetti “chose not to testify, questions about her credibility are left unanswered. The arbitrator has not had an opportunity to observe her demeanor or question NZ about the information she provided to SafeSport, much of which is controverted. By contrast, Lopez appeared genuinely upset and was visibly emotional when talking about the allegations of sexual misconduct against him. Not only has his taekwondo career been jeopardized, but his family has been humiliated and embarrassed by what Lopez believes are false and malicious allegations. Lopez testified in a manner consistent with someone who is falsely accused. His outrage did not seem feigned or contrived.”

    He was just shy of calling the victim a lying slut. No wonder she refused to testify.

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  • BogartBogart Because I hate you Registered User, Moderator mod
    Hedgie, this isn't just a thread to dump every awful miscarriage of justice related to college sexual assault cases.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Notre Dame's athletic director was apparently counsel to USAG and refusing to talk to the law firm investigating what went wrong. Among other people. That list includes:

    Both Karolyis.
    Fran Sepler, who conducted the interviews with Raisman, Maroney, and Nichols before they bothered to report to the authorities.
    Debbie Van Horn, Nassar's co-trainer and recently indicted in her own right for assault
    FBI Special Agent Jay Abbott, the guy Steve Penny finally did report Nassar to after much delay
    Brooke Lemmon, the doctor who removed patient files at MSU

    This report also led to the new as of today firing of USOC chief of sport performance Alan Ashley.

    From this report:
    The Title IX report also notes that Nassar discussed a slide from a “frequently used powerpoint that contains Star Trek images and is entitled ‘Pelvic Floor: Where no man has gone before.’” The report does not state whether Nassar provided MSU with PowerPoint presentations in 2014; Nassar shared his PowerPoint presentations with USAG in 2015 and MSU in 2016 following allegations of abuse, and he “used them to lecture frequently.” Nassar’s PowerPoint presentations have bizarre language and images. As Nassar stated to the Title IX investigators, one of his slides is based on a Star Trek theme. The Star Trek slide in his PowerPoint presentation contains a video with scrolling text: “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    WHAT HOW WHY WHAT WHAT WHY HOW OIEJFO:WIJF:LKF:LDJKF:DJKF:LD

    HOW DO YOU NOT THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Holy fuck

    HOLY FUCK!!!!!!

    THERE WERE FUCKING POWERPOINT SLIDES

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    Please, please, please tell me that this is not an actual quote off of the slides.

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  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    That cannot be real. That is messed up.

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  • Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    Notre Dame's athletic director was apparently counsel to USAG and refusing to talk to the law firm investigating what went wrong. Among other people. That list includes:

    Both Karolyis.
    Fran Sepler, who conducted the interviews with Raisman, Maroney, and Nichols before they bothered to report to the authorities.
    Debbie Van Horn, Nassar's co-trainer and recently indicted in her own right for assault
    FBI Special Agent Jay Abbott, the guy Steve Penny finally did report Nassar to after much delay
    Brooke Lemmon, the doctor who removed patient files at MSU

    This report also led to the new as of today firing of USOC chief of sport performance Alan Ashley.

    From this report:
    The Title IX report also notes that Nassar discussed a slide from a “frequently used powerpoint that contains Star Trek images and is entitled ‘Pelvic Floor: Where no man has gone before.’” The report does not state whether Nassar provided MSU with PowerPoint presentations in 2014; Nassar shared his PowerPoint presentations with USAG in 2015 and MSU in 2016 following allegations of abuse, and he “used them to lecture frequently.” Nassar’s PowerPoint presentations have bizarre language and images. As Nassar stated to the Title IX investigators, one of his slides is based on a Star Trek theme. The Star Trek slide in his PowerPoint presentation contains a video with scrolling text: “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    WHAT HOW WHY WHAT WHAT WHY HOW OIEJFO:WIJF:LKF:LDJKF:DJKF:LD

    HOW DO YOU NOT THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!

    Isn't this classic abuser/predator stuff? Say and do things that are weird and a little out of line, so that people make excuses for you ("Oh, that's just Larry, he's a little weird sometimes but a good guy")?

  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Notre Dame's athletic director was apparently counsel to USAG and refusing to talk to the law firm investigating what went wrong. Among other people. That list includes:

    Both Karolyis.
    Fran Sepler, who conducted the interviews with Raisman, Maroney, and Nichols before they bothered to report to the authorities.
    Debbie Van Horn, Nassar's co-trainer and recently indicted in her own right for assault
    FBI Special Agent Jay Abbott, the guy Steve Penny finally did report Nassar to after much delay
    Brooke Lemmon, the doctor who removed patient files at MSU

    This report also led to the new as of today firing of USOC chief of sport performance Alan Ashley.

    From this report:
    The Title IX report also notes that Nassar discussed a slide from a “frequently used powerpoint that contains Star Trek images and is entitled ‘Pelvic Floor: Where no man has gone before.’” The report does not state whether Nassar provided MSU with PowerPoint presentations in 2014; Nassar shared his PowerPoint presentations with USAG in 2015 and MSU in 2016 following allegations of abuse, and he “used them to lecture frequently.” Nassar’s PowerPoint presentations have bizarre language and images. As Nassar stated to the Title IX investigators, one of his slides is based on a Star Trek theme. The Star Trek slide in his PowerPoint presentation contains a video with scrolling text: “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    WHAT HOW WHY WHAT WHAT WHY HOW OIEJFO:WIJF:LKF:LDJKF:DJKF:LD

    HOW DO YOU NOT THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!

    Isn't this classic abuser/predator stuff? Say and do things that are weird and a little out of line, so that people make excuses for you ("Oh, that's just Larry, he's a little weird sometimes but a good guy")?

    It fits more in the serial killer mode where the person is flaunting their immunity to the authorities. You see this where they've gone through enough victims to feel safe enough to start deliberately leaving clues behind & at the same time developing a signature. This is why you see laity sometimes say things like, "he wanted to be caught". The truth is more complicated than that. It is more akin to testing the waters, to flush out those who might be a threat. If some peer came up and remarked to him personally about how weird or inappropriate those slides were (and they are both), it is likely that he would have withdrawn them. Someone caught onto a deliberate signal, therefore, he would know where certain bounds exist. Since it is more likely that someone remarked as above, then he knew that those around him trusted him & didn't see this as an oddity. He was therefore good to continue doing what he was doing with the knowledge of his continued safety. It is as with rearing children. If you don't remark on behavior, it is considered permitted.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Denhollander is Sports Illustrated Inspirational Sportsperson of the Year. NBCSN is televising the ceremony they put together for this. Christine Blasey Ford recorded an introduction for her, in I think her first public sort of appearance since the Kavanaugh hearings.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Two things:

    1) Indiana's Attorney General is investigating USA Gymnastics and is trying to block their bankruptcy. They were based in Indianapolis so that makes sense.
    2) Michigan Radio put together a podcast series on Nassar survivors called "Believed." Hard to listen to for obvious reasons, but really good.

    enlightenedbum on
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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    The Title IX report also notes that Nassar discussed a slide from a “frequently used powerpoint that contains Star Trek images and is entitled ‘Pelvic Floor: Where no man has gone before.’” The report does not state whether Nassar provided MSU with PowerPoint presentations in 2014; Nassar shared his PowerPoint presentations with USAG in 2015 and MSU in 2016 following allegations of abuse, and he “used them to lecture frequently.” Nassar’s PowerPoint presentations have bizarre language and images. As Nassar stated to the Title IX investigators, one of his slides is based on a Star Trek theme. The Star Trek slide in his PowerPoint presentation contains a video with scrolling text: “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    WHAT HOW WHY WHAT WHAT WHY HOW OIEJFO:WIJF:LKF:LDJKF:DJKF:LD

    HOW DO YOU NOT THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!

    So I actually know people personally who attended presentations he gave at USAG conferences(though not the quoted one). What they've told me is that no matter what the topic of the panel was supposed to be, he'd talk about "Pelvic Floor Manipulation". The way they explained it, it came off more like that weird psuedo-science guy who is always talking about kinesthetic tape, or an MLM scam 'healing' oil or 'cryo treatment'. Weird but more in the evangelical kook sense which is not that uncommon in sports and sports medicine.

    Also, while that thing is loaded with red flags. The amount of attention people pay at these things is pretty minimal. He could of had a slide that just said "I rape little girls" in red, bold, 90 point font, and only a couple people would have noticed.

    tinwhiskers on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    The Title IX report also notes that Nassar discussed a slide from a “frequently used powerpoint that contains Star Trek images and is entitled ‘Pelvic Floor: Where no man has gone before.’” The report does not state whether Nassar provided MSU with PowerPoint presentations in 2014; Nassar shared his PowerPoint presentations with USAG in 2015 and MSU in 2016 following allegations of abuse, and he “used them to lecture frequently.” Nassar’s PowerPoint presentations have bizarre language and images. As Nassar stated to the Title IX investigators, one of his slides is based on a Star Trek theme. The Star Trek slide in his PowerPoint presentation contains a video with scrolling text: “These are the voyages of the ‘Sports Pelvic Floor’ specialist/Whose life time mission . . . to boldly go where no man has gone before (in most of our young gymnasts – hopefully).”

    WHAT HOW WHY WHAT WHAT WHY HOW OIEJFO:WIJF:LKF:LDJKF:DJKF:LD

    HOW DO YOU NOT THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!

    So I actually know people personally who attended presentations he gave at USAG conferences(though not the quoted one). What they've told me is that no matter what the topic of the panel was supposed to be, he'd talk about "Pelvic Floor Manipulation". The way they explained it, it came off more like that weird psuedo-science guy who is always talking about kinesthetic tape, or an MLM scam 'healing' oil or 'cryo treatment'. Weird but more in the evangelical kook sense which is not that uncommon in sports and sports medicine.

    Also, while that thing is loaded with red flags. The amount of attention people pay at these things is pretty minimal. He could of had a slide that just said "I rape little girls" in red, bold, 90 point font, and only a couple people would have noticed.

    Basically, it was a mix of:
    * People are inclined to trust "experts".
    * People are disinclined to trust women.

    Remember, it wasn't until the drives were found that the testimony of the survivors got any traction.

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  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    You know how MSU really didn't like anyone poking around about the Nassar abuse?

    Yeah, it's worse than you thought.

    The Michigan AG office put out its report on MSU.

    Lowlights!
    In December 2017, a month after Nassar had pleaded guilty to sexual assault charges and a month before his state sentencing hearings began, Bill Beekman sent “a lengthy” email to then university President Lou Anna Simon summarizing meetings and conversations from the day before.

    Beekman, who at the time was the secretary of the Board of Trustees and is now the athletic director, ended the email by saying, “I will delete this email after sending it.”
    Forsyth’s investigation was announced after university trustees asked Schuette to investigate, but Forsyth’s report says MSU failed to cooperate as it promised it would.

    He wrote that the university issued false public statements, drowned investigators in irrelevant documents, fought the release of relevant documents and wrongly asserted attorney-client privilege.
    “Until there is a top-down cultural change at MSU, survivors and the public would be rightly skeptical of the effectiveness of any set of written policies.”

    I would say this will change things but with the current admin at MSU, I know that is not going to happen.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Snyder appointed Nancy Schlichting to replace Perles. Her positions on Engler and general partisan stoogeiness are not clear. But she's basically a a professional board member and elite member of society at this point, she's also on the board of Duke. Hard to say how she'd vote on firing Engler.

    That report identified 11 employees who failed to report Nassar's abuse after they were told about it:

    Gary Stollak, psychologist and professor: Kyle Stephens told him about Nassar in 1998. He did nothing. Lost his license, was called to testify at Nassar's preliminary hearing, claimed a stroke had destroyed his memories.
    Kathie Klages, women's gymnastics coach: Larissa Boyce and a second gymnast told her in the late 90s. She intimidated them into silence and was demanding her gymnasts write letters of support for Nassar well into 2017. She is charged with four counts of lying to police.
    Heena Shah Trivedi, athletic trainer: Tiffany Thomas Lopez told her in 1999
    Kelli Bert, track coach: told by Christie Achenbach in 1999
    Lianna Hadden, athletic trainer: told by Jennifer Bedford in 2000 or 2001. Still employed by MSU (!!!)
    Tony Robles, athletic trainer: Jill Berg told him in 2002, though assured him "everything was fine" so he let it drop.
    Brooke Lemmon, MSU doctor: Kassie Castle told her in 2007, as did another girl. Her response "we get that a lot." The state licensing and regulatory affairs people apparently cleared her of wrongdoing, despite this.
    Lionsel Rosen, sports psychiatrist: told by Shannon Dunn in 2010. Told her that Nassar was "just doing what was best for (Dunn)"
    Rebecca Cass, supervisor in MSU's College of Osteopathic Medicine: told by Catryina Brown
    David Jager, athletic trainer: told by Kellie Sajdak in 2015. Told her Nassar was the best in the world, but go ahead and report it.
    Destiny Teachnor-Hauk, MSU trainer who is the person not yet charged who most needs to be: told by Lopez, intimidated her, lied during the 2014 Title IX investigation, and fully backed him

    Jeffrey Kovan, team doctor for MSU basketball, soccer, track, and softball, actually took Amanda Thomashow's report to the Title IX office, who of course buried it. Could have followed up more, but that's at least sorta close to right.

    And that doesn't even include Strampel.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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