We've been playing Charterstone and it's a hard one for me to nail down. I think because the first game nearly soured us on the whole deal; the premise of 'learn while you play' sounds good on paper but here, at least for us it was massively frustrating because.. gosh I don't know how to put it into words. It's like you can feel the hole where the missing rules are and it grates (you start out with a basic ruleset then add to the rulebook as you play, its kind of like how Hogwarts Battle plays out but it's not handled nearly as well here IMO). But now that we've gotten a few games in it's better, it plays pretty fast actually, at least until you unlock a new rule and the flow of the game screeches to a halt.
So last night I sat down with my wife and ran her through 14 games based on recommendations you guys gave. I basically just read the description to her on BGG, and showed her a few pictures of each game set up to give her an idea of what it looks like in play, and then let her know what the relative complexity rating was on BGG as well.
After all was said and done, the ones she liked the most were Caverna (despite the complexity) and Evolution. So I think I'm going to pick up both if my local store has them. It seems that the more fantastic the theme, the less likely she was going to be interested in it. Also, she didn't want to do co-op at all, and she wanted something we could learn as two players, and then spread to a larger group of folks.
One of the things my local game store is renting games. Most game stores have some kind of demo wall.
It might be cheaper to go that route if you have access to it?
We have a board game cafe around here called Snakes and Lattes, it's a pretty neat joint, and we'll probably check it out in the near future to play and drink.
So last night I sat down with my wife and ran her through 14 games based on recommendations you guys gave. I basically just read the description to her on BGG, and showed her a few pictures of each game set up to give her an idea of what it looks like in play, and then let her know what the relative complexity rating was on BGG as well.
After all was said and done, the ones she liked the most were Caverna (despite the complexity) and Evolution. So I think I'm going to pick up both if my local store has them. It seems that the more fantastic the theme, the less likely she was going to be interested in it. Also, she didn't want to do co-op at all, and she wanted something we could learn as two players, and then spread to a larger group of folks.
One of the things my local game store is renting games. Most game stores have some kind of demo wall.
It might be cheaper to go that route if you have access to it?
We have a board game cafe around here called Snakes and Lattes, it's a pretty neat joint, and we'll probably check it out in the near future to play and drink.
Isn't that one of the nicest board game cafes around? I know I've heard that name in many places and usually associated with good things. Definitely check them out and play the games there before you buy!
I wish we had a board game cafe around here. Friends of mine have discussed trying to open one ourselves, but with families, the risk is a bit much I think.
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mysticjuicer[he/him] I'm a muscle wizardand I cast P U N C HRegistered Userregular
I played the expansion for Scythe last night, the one with the airships. Wind Gambit maybe?
I felt like the airships did just a little bit more than nothing and i don't see what they add to the game. In our game nobody even activated any of the powers, they were so situational. They ferried some workers and that's about it. The variable end conditions are sort of neat. It might be the least necessary expansion i ever played. The base game is pretty good though. (the extra faction expansion is also pretty good - even if its weird that the two bonus factions aren't surrounded by water.)
So last night I sat down with my wife and ran her through 14 games based on recommendations you guys gave. I basically just read the description to her on BGG, and showed her a few pictures of each game set up to give her an idea of what it looks like in play, and then let her know what the relative complexity rating was on BGG as well.
After all was said and done, the ones she liked the most were Caverna (despite the complexity) and Evolution. So I think I'm going to pick up both if my local store has them. It seems that the more fantastic the theme, the less likely she was going to be interested in it. Also, she didn't want to do co-op at all, and she wanted something we could learn as two players, and then spread to a larger group of folks.
One of the things my local game store is renting games. Most game stores have some kind of demo wall.
It might be cheaper to go that route if you have access to it?
We have a board game cafe around here called Snakes and Lattes, it's a pretty neat joint, and we'll probably check it out in the near future to play and drink.
Isn't that one of the nicest board game cafes around? I know I've heard that name in many places and usually associated with good things. Definitely check them out and play the games there before you buy!
I wish we had a board game cafe around here. Friends of mine have discussed trying to open one ourselves, but with families, the risk is a bit much I think.
Yeah I love it. I've only been a few times, but I've actually met up with some Penny-arcade forum randos there and had a nice time!
Cardhaus just put Seafall on sale at $10. It's now sold out so presumably at that price people are willing to hope the reviews were wrong
I picked it up from one of the sales around Black Friday for pretty cheap. May have been $20 though. Worth a look at those types of prices, even if the fun dries up after a bit, that is pretty cheap.
We haven't started it yet though, finishing Netrunner and some other games first that have story.
I am biased as to what the best boardgame cafe is because my friends own one and I get free food and booze there for having helped build it.
I'm in the same boat, having worked at my local one for over a year and generally supporting it otherwise. Even still, I've been to several others and think we're kind of phenomenal in comparison. <_<
I played the expansion for Scythe last night, the one with the airships. Wind Gambit maybe?
I felt like the airships did just a little bit more than nothing and i don't see what they add to the game. In our game nobody even activated any of the powers, they were so situational. They ferried some workers and that's about it. The variable end conditions are sort of neat. It might be the least necessary expansion i ever played. The base game is pretty good though. (the extra faction expansion is also pretty good - even if its weird that the two bonus factions aren't surrounded by water.)
Not having to riverwalk is somewhat made up for by not having access to the Speed upgrade.
Cardhaus just put Seafall on sale at $10. It's now sold out so presumably at that price people are willing to hope the reviews were wrong
I dropped $20 on it back during the Asmodee winter sale. My understanding is that while it's got a lot of disappointment because of people's inflated expectations, it's not entirely bad?
Like, being a Legacy game, I feel like there's still an experience to get out of it, and a story that will evolve, even if it turns out that the journey wasn't as fun as we would have liked.
Cardhaus just put Seafall on sale at $10. It's now sold out so presumably at that price people are willing to hope the reviews were wrong
I dropped $20 on it back during the Asmodee winter sale. My understanding is that while it's got a lot of disappointment because of people's inflated expectations, it's not entirely bad?
Like, being a Legacy game, I feel like there's still an experience to get out of it, and a story that will evolve, even if it turns out that the journey wasn't as fun as we would have liked.
I don't think this is spoilery at all, but just to honour anyone still interested ...
The best I had it described (in that it was accurate to my own experience with the game and really drilled to the point) was that Seafall takes way too long to actually get enough rules to be compelling, and you spend too much time doing all the rote buildup to the interesting points. You need to unlock a bunch of stuff before there's much more to do than move around a board and roll some dice, and if you have 4-5 players the downtime is atrocious. There are also too few goals, and you'll probably all update the same subset of stuff because the game doesn't give you a compelling reason to do otherwise until you're, like 5-6 games in.
Like, the legacy component of Seafall is pretty good. It's the game that it starts out as that is the turn off. Don't play with more than 3?
A good portion of my online purchases come from Snakes and Lattes. The free Canada wide shipping is pretty great and their prices are competitive. Snakes and Lattes is great!
BNet: ElMucho#1392
Origin: theRealElMucho
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jergarmarhollow man crewgoes pew pew pewRegistered Userregular
edited January 2018
Hey, thread, how the stink are you guys?
So what do you guys think about Shadows of Brimstone (City of the Ancients)? Played one game, our group seemed to like it, so I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. My impression is that it's a more thematic RPG, but perhaps less serious? There are various opportunities to be permanently crippled and/or die gruesomely, which honestly has this strange appeal. For example, I rolled badly and the loot that I gathered actually made my nose fall off, penalizing me such that bad events were more likely to happen in town. My character's name had been "El Guapo", which obviously took on a whole new ironic hue. But I definitely recognize that it might be frustrating to have a well-established character suddenly die because you rolled snake eyes in town. Or maybe not! Maybe the game simply pivots into a resurrected or rerolled character? Would love to hear other experiences from the game, especially past the first couple missions.
EDIT: It actually reminds me, strangely enough, of Tales of the Arabian Nights, which through persistent good or bad (usually bad) effects, could maintain a kind of persistent developing personal narrative. Plus the rare but real danger of simply dying if things went unusually awry.
jergarmar on
When I was a child, I had a fever... My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
We've been playing Charterstone and it's a hard one for me to nail down. I think because the first game nearly soured us on the whole deal; the premise of 'learn while you play' sounds good on paper but here, at least for us it was massively frustrating because.. gosh I don't know how to put it into words. It's like you can feel the hole where the missing rules are and it grates (you start out with a basic ruleset then add to the rulebook as you play, its kind of like how Hogwarts Battle plays out but it's not handled nearly as well here IMO). But now that we've gotten a few games in it's better, it plays pretty fast actually, at least until you unlock a new rule and the flow of the game screeches to a halt.
This is sort of where I'm at with it. We're due for game 7 next week, and it's getting a bit more cutthroat as crates run out and people focus on points over putting stickers everywhere, but it still feels like it's missing a step between where it is now and being a complete game.
It is at least pretty light and quick, and the way unlocks are staggered so that something powerful early on for one group might barely appear for another is quite neat, but I'm not convinced that the completed game is going to be all that compelling when we're done.
The first round of Charterstone was weird. There really wasn't a clear understanding of how the game scoring worked in the overall Legacy Scoring (there still are a few hidden mechanics). I was also surprised to end up winning that round, and am now the proud mayor of Towny McTownface. After the first two round the flow of the game was better understood.
I am not sure how this would work as a stand alone game. We are playing with four right now, so two charters are much less developed which leads to some odd imbalances. This kind of works in the legacy sense, but I can't imagine it working well in an isolated game sense, nothing is anywhere near balanced. That said I love it in the legacy sense, the board is always changing and encourages experimenting with strategies. The meta-game impacts mean the king making stuff doesn't pop up and even if you're down for that game, there is still plenty to do to help for future rounds.
I have also learned that old need to put stickers on everything from when I was young had been quietly waiting in my heart all this time.
I'm cooling on Charterstone a lot. The last couple of games just haven't been much fun for me. Others in the group are still enjoying it, but and I and at least one other person are close to the "do we even care to finish this" point. We just finished game 8 (of 12).
My wife asked about Charterstone when we were at the FLGS. I told her I wasn't interested in it and I heard that having only 3 players didn't work as well as 4 or more. The store left a message that our copy is in. I guess I am getting Charterstone for Valentine's day :?
My wife asked about Charterstone when we were at the FLGS. I told her I wasn't interested in it and I heard that having only 3 players didn't work as well as 4 or more. The store left a message that our copy is in. I guess I am getting Charterstone for Valentine's day :?
I'll go in with low expectations and hopefully enjoy it.
She is into all things legacy right now. She digs ripping things apart and applying stickers. Regular games take shelf space forever, but she loves that legacy games are disposable.
Cardhaus just put Seafall on sale at $10. It's now sold out so presumably at that price people are willing to hope the reviews were wrong
I dropped $20 on it back during the Asmodee winter sale. My understanding is that while it's got a lot of disappointment because of people's inflated expectations, it's not entirely bad?
Like, being a Legacy game, I feel like there's still an experience to get out of it, and a story that will evolve, even if it turns out that the journey wasn't as fun as we would have liked.
It's fun. Major tip. It feels like it is going to play like a 4x but it is not a 4x. It's an exploration and goal grabbing game.
The person who thinks they are just going to go totally an economic strategy is going to lose badly. It's more of a light side thing.
I say this because the person who did it was only playing at the end to be a pal and let us finish. It's a trap.
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
Played a 2P game of The Palace of Mad King Ludwig.
Tiles! TILES EVERYWHERE! AND SWANS! So. Many. SWANS!
So 2P is very.. direct when it comes to screwing each other. And make no mistake - even though this game doesn't have the master builder and money aspects, it is still a game about screwing each other.
The snaking nature of the palace is awesome. Basically, you spider out, dodging other people's rooms and looking for swan points, and avoiding the moat. Again, in 2P that is very direct, as you build the moat any time a room is completed. That happens quite a bit with the uniform design.
It was a VERY smart idea to track rooms they way they do. you place a symbol of your player on each room you build, and flip it over when it is completed. You also track every room you build (or architect) on your building board, so you can quickly calculate things.
It is fun to screw someone by building stairs off their basement. If you can complete it, you get equal points!
I am very glad they included a scoring sheet to help add up things, as there is a lot of end-game math. It's not complicated, just tricky (especially with a half-asleep on call neurosurgeon [don't ask, he's cool]). In the end I won 165 to 156.
I used the store's demo table. At least one person bought the game while we were there.
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Arkham LCG update: we completed the Undimensioned and Unseen module on the 7th brutal try, then blew through the rest of the Dunwich campaign with no further difficulties. I maintain that one is just very poorly designed, especially for two players. I like this game and I plan to move on to the Carcosa campaign, but it still has some quirks to it that make it less fun for me than Eldritch (more strategy, more progression) or Mansions (better story).
So what do you guys think about Shadows of Brimstone (City of the Ancients)? Played one game, our group seemed to like it, so I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. My impression is that it's a more thematic RPG, but perhaps less serious? There are various opportunities to be permanently crippled and/or die gruesomely, which honestly has this strange appeal. For example, I rolled badly and the loot that I gathered actually made my nose fall off, penalizing me such that bad events were more likely to happen in town. My character's name had been "El Guapo", which obviously took on a whole new ironic hue. But I definitely recognize that it might be frustrating to have a well-established character suddenly die because you rolled snake eyes in town. Or maybe not! Maybe the game simply pivots into a resurrected or rerolled character? Would love to hear other experiences from the game, especially past the first couple missions.
EDIT: It actually reminds me, strangely enough, of Tales of the Arabian Nights, which through persistent good or bad (usually bad) effects, could maintain a kind of persistent developing personal narrative. Plus the rare but real danger of simply dying if things went unusually awry.
I Looooooove Brimstone. I kinda went nutty on it when it came out. The Wild West Lovecraftian theme just scratches all the right itches for me. Look at BGG for the hex crawl home brew. It's amazing. Also, get poker chips for money.
Played Time Stories today. My friend had played a few times, so we joined as a group that had some extra time. Ended up winning with a little bit of fudging. It's a lot for what is basically just one riddle at the end. They have three stats for each character, but Combat is so much more useful than the other two that it's stupid to pick anyone specializing in the other two. Not impressed overall, and I guess I don't need to worry about it anymore unless he wants to do one of the expansion stories.
Played Time Stories today. My friend had played a few times, so we joined as a group that had some extra time. Ended up winning with a little bit of fudging. It's a lot for what is basically just one riddle at the end. They have three stats for each character, but Combat is so much more useful than the other two that it's stupid to pick anyone specializing in the other two. Not impressed overall, and I guess I don't need to worry about it anymore unless he wants to do one of the expansion stories.
Every Time Story scenerio I have played (Asylum, Marcy Case, Behind the Mask and Prophecy of Dragons) plays very differently outside of the fail/reset/retry cycle, time management and movement stuff. Our group had that same complaint about the over reliance on combat in The Marcy Case.
It is also a game that is less about winning or losing than about being a one off puzzle game. We have fudged the rules on occasion to avoid doing another unnecissary run. I like Time Stories, but it has zero replayability.
Speaking of Dunwich, ended up restarting our AHLCG campaign the other night due to adding a third player and got through Scenario II. Our team is rolling Jenny, Jim, and Roland.
Went a *bit* better this this time...
Did Extracurricular Activity and actually rescued the professor... but we almost ran out of time since the Mythos deck decided to be a dick and hand out three Ancient Evils in one turn, and so the experiment got super close to the dorms.
The Casino adventure is still amazing... but we ended up running out of time again and got caught in the building burning down. There was no way in hell we were going to be able to go back and get the owner out.
Museum went fairly well... although goddamn the Hunting Horror got rough by the end there. Definitely gave it a taste of MACHETE POWAH the first few times it spawned... but later on I focused on just clue hunting while Jenny got to bust out her Typewriter and go to town on it.
PMAvers on
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Vast was amazing, just how all the different players interact is great. I can’t wait to play it again now that everyone understands it better.
Gloomhaven on the other hand was a bust for me. It’s a dungeon crawler ass dungeon crawler. It’s fiddly and slow and ultimately kind of boring. The big picture stuff is neat but the moment to moment gameplay is a slog.
Vast was amazing, just how all the different players interact is great. I can’t wait to play it again now that everyone understands it better.
Gloomhaven on the other hand was a bust for me. It’s a dungeon crawler ass dungeon crawler. It’s fiddly and slow and ultimately kind of boring. The big picture stuff is neat but the moment to moment gameplay is a slog.
It might be the class I'm playing, but it doesn't seem that much of a slog to me. The puzzly element of the fight I enjoy more that the legacy stuff at the moment.
Played Black Friday this weekend which was a pretty rad stock game in which you try to make the most of the market before an inevitable crash. Looking forward to playing that one again.
Posts
We have a board game cafe around here called Snakes and Lattes, it's a pretty neat joint, and we'll probably check it out in the near future to play and drink.
HA
It's a pretty neat place actually!
So it really is a faithful reskin of chaos in the old world :P
wait we've played chaos like 20 times and don't have a strong opinion about balance, i don't think
we did take the "2 points per kill" card and make it one point per kill and it's still pretty good
what is your ranking of powerful gods and card decks (as far as expansion or not)
Isn't that one of the nicest board game cafes around? I know I've heard that name in many places and usually associated with good things. Definitely check them out and play the games there before you buy!
I wish we had a board game cafe around here. Friends of mine have discussed trying to open one ourselves, but with families, the risk is a bit much I think.
It’s mostly that damn khorne upgrade completely ruining the game, our crew doesn’t do houserules so we just stopped playing the expansion.
I felt like the airships did just a little bit more than nothing and i don't see what they add to the game. In our game nobody even activated any of the powers, they were so situational. They ferried some workers and that's about it. The variable end conditions are sort of neat. It might be the least necessary expansion i ever played. The base game is pretty good though. (the extra faction expansion is also pretty good - even if its weird that the two bonus factions aren't surrounded by water.)
Nintendo ID: Pastalonius
Smite\LoL:Gremlidin \ WoW & Overwatch & Hots: Gremlidin#1734
3ds: 3282-2248-0453
I sure am!
Yeah I love it. I've only been a few times, but I've actually met up with some Penny-arcade forum randos there and had a nice time!
I picked it up from one of the sales around Black Friday for pretty cheap. May have been $20 though. Worth a look at those types of prices, even if the fun dries up after a bit, that is pretty cheap.
We haven't started it yet though, finishing Netrunner and some other games first that have story.
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
Not having to riverwalk is somewhat made up for by not having access to the Speed upgrade.
I dropped $20 on it back during the Asmodee winter sale. My understanding is that while it's got a lot of disappointment because of people's inflated expectations, it's not entirely bad?
Like, being a Legacy game, I feel like there's still an experience to get out of it, and a story that will evolve, even if it turns out that the journey wasn't as fun as we would have liked.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Like, the legacy component of Seafall is pretty good. It's the game that it starts out as that is the turn off. Don't play with more than 3?
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
A good portion of my online purchases come from Snakes and Lattes. The free Canada wide shipping is pretty great and their prices are competitive. Snakes and Lattes is great!
Origin: theRealElMucho
So what do you guys think about Shadows of Brimstone (City of the Ancients)? Played one game, our group seemed to like it, so I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. My impression is that it's a more thematic RPG, but perhaps less serious? There are various opportunities to be permanently crippled and/or die gruesomely, which honestly has this strange appeal. For example, I rolled badly and the loot that I gathered actually made my nose fall off, penalizing me such that bad events were more likely to happen in town. My character's name had been "El Guapo", which obviously took on a whole new ironic hue. But I definitely recognize that it might be frustrating to have a well-established character suddenly die because you rolled snake eyes in town. Or maybe not! Maybe the game simply pivots into a resurrected or rerolled character? Would love to hear other experiences from the game, especially past the first couple missions.
EDIT: It actually reminds me, strangely enough, of Tales of the Arabian Nights, which through persistent good or bad (usually bad) effects, could maintain a kind of persistent developing personal narrative. Plus the rare but real danger of simply dying if things went unusually awry.
My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
This is sort of where I'm at with it. We're due for game 7 next week, and it's getting a bit more cutthroat as crates run out and people focus on points over putting stickers everywhere, but it still feels like it's missing a step between where it is now and being a complete game.
It is at least pretty light and quick, and the way unlocks are staggered so that something powerful early on for one group might barely appear for another is quite neat, but I'm not convinced that the completed game is going to be all that compelling when we're done.
I am not sure how this would work as a stand alone game. We are playing with four right now, so two charters are much less developed which leads to some odd imbalances. This kind of works in the legacy sense, but I can't imagine it working well in an isolated game sense, nothing is anywhere near balanced. That said I love it in the legacy sense, the board is always changing and encourages experimenting with strategies. The meta-game impacts mean the king making stuff doesn't pop up and even if you're down for that game, there is still plenty to do to help for future rounds.
I have also learned that old need to put stickers on everything from when I was young had been quietly waiting in my heart all this time.
What a classy fucker.
I hate when I'm not the one who applies them and they end up not lining up properly.
It is weirdly satisfying though, putting stickers on pieces and cards.
Oh, yeah, the Gloomhaven map feels great to stick new missions on. Something for you recent adopters to look forwards to.
Maybe you're more fortunate than you know.
I'll go in with low expectations and hopefully enjoy it.
She is into all things legacy right now. She digs ripping things apart and applying stickers. Regular games take shelf space forever, but she loves that legacy games are disposable.
It's fun. Major tip. It feels like it is going to play like a 4x but it is not a 4x. It's an exploration and goal grabbing game.
The person who thinks they are just going to go totally an economic strategy is going to lose badly. It's more of a light side thing.
I say this because the person who did it was only playing at the end to be a pal and let us finish. It's a trap.
but they're listening to every word I say
Tiles! TILES EVERYWHERE! AND SWANS! So. Many. SWANS!
So 2P is very.. direct when it comes to screwing each other. And make no mistake - even though this game doesn't have the master builder and money aspects, it is still a game about screwing each other.
The snaking nature of the palace is awesome. Basically, you spider out, dodging other people's rooms and looking for swan points, and avoiding the moat. Again, in 2P that is very direct, as you build the moat any time a room is completed. That happens quite a bit with the uniform design.
It was a VERY smart idea to track rooms they way they do. you place a symbol of your player on each room you build, and flip it over when it is completed. You also track every room you build (or architect) on your building board, so you can quickly calculate things.
It is fun to screw someone by building stairs off their basement. If you can complete it, you get equal points!
I am very glad they included a scoring sheet to help add up things, as there is a lot of end-game math. It's not complicated, just tricky (especially with a half-asleep on call neurosurgeon [don't ask, he's cool]). In the end I won 165 to 156.
I used the store's demo table. At least one person bought the game while we were there.
I Looooooove Brimstone. I kinda went nutty on it when it came out. The Wild West Lovecraftian theme just scratches all the right itches for me. Look at BGG for the hex crawl home brew. It's amazing. Also, get poker chips for money.
Every Time Story scenerio I have played (Asylum, Marcy Case, Behind the Mask and Prophecy of Dragons) plays very differently outside of the fail/reset/retry cycle, time management and movement stuff. Our group had that same complaint about the over reliance on combat in The Marcy Case.
It is also a game that is less about winning or losing than about being a one off puzzle game. We have fudged the rules on occasion to avoid doing another unnecissary run. I like Time Stories, but it has zero replayability.
Went a *bit* better this this time...
The Casino adventure is still amazing... but we ended up running out of time again and got caught in the building burning down. There was no way in hell we were going to be able to go back and get the owner out.
Museum went fairly well... although goddamn the Hunting Horror got rough by the end there. Definitely gave it a taste of MACHETE POWAH the first few times it spawned... but later on I focused on just clue hunting while Jenny got to bust out her Typewriter and go to town on it.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Vast was amazing, just how all the different players interact is great. I can’t wait to play it again now that everyone understands it better.
Gloomhaven on the other hand was a bust for me. It’s a dungeon crawler ass dungeon crawler. It’s fiddly and slow and ultimately kind of boring. The big picture stuff is neat but the moment to moment gameplay is a slog.
It might be the class I'm playing, but it doesn't seem that much of a slog to me. The puzzly element of the fight I enjoy more that the legacy stuff at the moment.