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[Russia/US Investigation thread] More indictments, Schiff memo released

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited January 2018
    So, he fired Comey, tried to fire Mueller, backed down from that, but also inquired about who his replacement FBI director voted for, and wanted the Deputy Director (?) fired, but backed down when the Director said he'd resign if forced to fire him.

    What the ever loving fuck? I've been watching this like it was my job (please don't tell work how much time I spend on this per day) and it's still fucking insane.

    And I'd bet anything that this isn't even the craziest shit that has happened.

    Edit: this is, of course, a very small and not at all exhaustive list of the bullshit we know about. I'm trying for that brevity thing.

    It is, however, exhausting.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing to Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    I was thinking about this and examining other media from the time to look for any tip offs.

    Doodmann
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Congress' refusal to do anything about this sort of thing isn't anything special to Trump - you don't openly betray the president of your own party, period, unless he is already irrefutably doomed. I think the only things that can qualify for that now would be either Mueller bringing forward very serious charges against Trump himself, or new evidence of some other major crime he's committed since he became President. These day-to-day embarrassments and scandals are just the new normal, you can't expect any one of them to cause Congress to suddenly just wake up from a haze and decide it's okay to impeach him now.

    CelestialBadger
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    I’ll tell you one thing. June last year is when Hannity was pushing for Mueller to be fired in a big way. I’ll see if I can find a video somewhere.

    *edit* Okay, found a Fox News. June 13th 2017, Hannity calling for Mueller to be fired.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Congress' refusal to do anything about this sort of thing isn't anything special to Trump - you don't openly betray the president of your own party, period, unless he is already irrefutably doomed. I think the only things that can qualify for that now would be either Mueller bringing forward very serious charges against Trump himself, or new evidence of some other major crime he's committed since he became President. These day-to-day embarrassments and scandals are just the new normal, you can't expect any one of them to cause Congress to suddenly just wake up from a haze and decide it's okay to impeach him now.

    I disagree, with as corrupted as Trump is own party or not to save the country you should do something if you weren't just as awfully connected as this GOP congress and its donors are.

    That's the problem its not just party before country its literally the collusion went on with everyone in the GOP. Ryan and McConnel are connected to covering up and possibly being involved directly.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    We don't really have any data points to support you turning the president when it's your own party even when he's definitely done horrible things.

    The behavior is that you defend him to the death. Maybe you tut tut a bit. It sucks, but that's the precedent.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    It surprises me some that everyone's making a fuss about this. It was months ago and I'm not really shocked at all. Of course he tried to fire Mueller and of course someone told him no. We might not have had anything so quaint as confirmation, but I'm still not shocked.

    Trump tried to do one of the main things that Nixon did that lead to a slam dunk impeachment case against Nixon, and we are just learning that concretely. This goes beyond just musing about doing it and complaining about witch hunts and whatnot, he actually tried to put it in motion.

    I know that the Trump presidency warps spacetime like a black hole, but some perspective on what counts as a big deal is in order.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Congress' refusal to do anything about this sort of thing isn't anything special to Trump - you don't openly betray the president of your own party, period, unless he is already irrefutably doomed. I think the only things that can qualify for that now would be either Mueller bringing forward very serious charges against Trump himself, or new evidence of some other major crime he's committed since he became President. These day-to-day embarrassments and scandals are just the new normal, you can't expect any one of them to cause Congress to suddenly just wake up from a haze and decide it's okay to impeach him now.

    ...no.

    No, it’s not simply to be expected that members of Congress refuse to hold their party leader accountable for crimes, many obvious crimes. It’s fucking shameful and shocking. The fact that the assholes in charge of this country have been there for a while and are still assholes doesn’t mean we should lower the bar. We should be in the damn streets.

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    Congress' refusal to do anything about this sort of thing isn't anything special to Trump - you don't openly betray the president of your own party, period, unless he is already irrefutably doomed. I think the only things that can qualify for that now would be either Mueller bringing forward very serious charges against Trump himself, or new evidence of some other major crime he's committed since he became President. These day-to-day embarrassments and scandals are just the new normal, you can't expect any one of them to cause Congress to suddenly just wake up from a haze and decide it's okay to impeach him now.

    I disagree, with as corrupted as Trump is own party or not to save the country you should do something if you weren't just as awfully connected as this GOP congress and its donors are.

    That's the problem its not just party before country its literally the collusion went on with everyone in the GOP. Ryan and McConnel are connected to covering up and possibly being involved directly.

    I'm not talking about "should", I'm talking about "why." It's the reality of how our system is built. Political parties demand loyalty and have many ways to enforce it. Each individual GOP member of Congress is simply acting in accordance with their incentives. Publicly calling for Trump's impeachment alienates both their voters and their party. They would simply be replaced in the next election with someone who knows how to play the game better.

    MrMister
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    Okay the Dutch Broadcast Foundation, which is one of the organizations making up the Netherlands’ Public Broadcasting System, have provided a perfect English translation of the story about Dutch Intelligence witnessing the DNC hack.

    It also says they witnessed the hack of the State Department and the White House, and alerted US Intelligence each time.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    Congress' refusal to do anything about this sort of thing isn't anything special to Trump - you don't openly betray the president of your own party, period, unless he is already irrefutably doomed. I think the only things that can qualify for that now would be either Mueller bringing forward very serious charges against Trump himself, or new evidence of some other major crime he's committed since he became President. These day-to-day embarrassments and scandals are just the new normal, you can't expect any one of them to cause Congress to suddenly just wake up from a haze and decide it's okay to impeach him now.

    ...no.

    No, it’s not simply to be expected that members of Congress refuse to hold their party leader accountable for crimes, many obvious crimes. It’s fucking shameful and shocking. The fact that the assholes in charge of this country have been there for a while and are still assholes doesn’t mean we should lower the bar. We should be in the damn streets.

    "The good-lookin' white men and women on the teevee box say our tribe's still winnin', so who cares what the stupid libtards think? (I hope they're real mad about it, though, whatever it is.)"

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Okay the Dutch Broadcast Foundation, which is one of the organizations making up the Netherlands’ Public Broadcasting System, have provided a perfect English translation of the story about Dutch Intelligence witnessing the DNC hack.

    It also says they witnessed the hack of the State Department and the White House, and alerted US Intelligence each time.
    Hannity wrote:
    The real collusion that Mueller is never going to probe is not with President Trump and the Russians, it appears to be between the Clinton campaign, the Obama administration, Loretta Lynch and James Comey.

    I just did a quick google of that phrase. When this is all over, I really hope someone makes a supercut of all the things the right have claimed were the real collusion.

    SleepMrVyngaardElvenshaeGnome-InterruptusCambiata
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    We don't really have any data points to support you turning the president when it's your own party even when he's definitely done horrible things.

    The behavior is that you defend him to the death. Maybe you tut tut a bit. It sucks, but that's the precedent.

    The most recent, and only second ever, recorded vote for Impeachment: Five Democrats (Virgil Goode of Virginia, Ralph Hall of Texas, Paul McHale of Pennsylvania, Charles Stenholm of Texas, and Gene Taylor of Mississippi) voted in favor of three of the four articles of impeachment, but only Taylor voted for the abuse of power charge. Five Republicans (Amo Houghton of New York, Peter King of New York, Connie Morella of Maryland, Chris Shays of Connecticut, and Mark Souder of Indiana) voted against the first perjury charge. Eight more Republicans (Sherwood Boehlert of New York, Michael Castle of Delaware, Phil English of Pennsylvania, Nancy Johnson of Connecticut, Jay Kim of California, Jim Leach of Iowa, John McHugh of New York, and Ralph Regula of Ohio), but not Souder, voted against the obstruction charge. Twenty-eight Republicans voted against the second perjury charge, sending it to defeat, and eighty-one voted against the abuse of power charge.

  • DiplominatorDiplominator Hardcore Porg Registered User regular
    Savant wrote: »
    It surprises me some that everyone's making a fuss about this. It was months ago and I'm not really shocked at all. Of course he tried to fire Mueller and of course someone told him no. We might not have had anything so quaint as confirmation, but I'm still not shocked.

    Trump tried to do one of the main things that Nixon did that lead to a slam dunk impeachment case against Nixon, and we are just learning that concretely. This goes beyond just musing about doing it and complaining about witch hunts and whatnot, he actually tried to put it in motion.

    I know that the Trump presidency warps spacetime like a black hole, but some perspective on what counts as a big deal is in order.

    Well, yes, but the word is tried. I've little doubt President Trump has tried a variety of heinous things and been stymied. Invading Canada after the handshake thing. Expelling New Mexico from the Union. Moving the Capital to Florida. Constructing a giant series of fortifications along the southern border.

  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

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  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Savant wrote: »
    It surprises me some that everyone's making a fuss about this. It was months ago and I'm not really shocked at all. Of course he tried to fire Mueller and of course someone told him no. We might not have had anything so quaint as confirmation, but I'm still not shocked.

    Trump tried to do one of the main things that Nixon did that lead to a slam dunk impeachment case against Nixon, and we are just learning that concretely. This goes beyond just musing about doing it and complaining about witch hunts and whatnot, he actually tried to put it in motion.

    I know that the Trump presidency warps spacetime like a black hole, but some perspective on what counts as a big deal is in order.

    Well, yes, but the word is tried. I've little doubt President Trump has tried a variety of heinous things and been stymied. Invading Canada after the handshake thing. Expelling New Mexico from the Union. Moving the Capital to Florida. Constructing a giant series of fortifications along the southern border.

    I'm pretty sure that attempted obstruction of justice is the same crime as successful obstruction of justice. IANAL, but that was one of the main points that came up on the past year that this has been relevant. At least when it is not combined with other crimes, like kidnapping, bribery, murder, etc.

    And in the big picture Nixon wasn't successful in his attempt, either, as firing a path through DOJ to get rid of special prosecutor Cox didn't prevent the reckoning for him or his underlings. He ended up needing Ford's pardon.

    Savant on
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

    man, i cant believe its been a year of this nonsense. Dude, if it was phony then the investigation would uncover that, so if they find that you were obstructing the investigation, even if there was no original crime, guess what, thats still obstruction.

    Seriously if the obstruction over the russia investigation doesnt sink trump, no president will ever be worried about getting done for obstruction ever again.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

    man, i cant believe its been a year of this nonsense. Dude, if it was phony then the investigation would uncover that, so if they find that you were obstructing the investigation, even if there was no original crime, guess what, thats still obstruction.

    Seriously if the obstruction over the russia investigation doesnt sink trump, no president will ever be worried about getting done for obstruction ever again.

    June 2017 is also the month when Comey released his notes on the meetings he’d had with Trump, making Trump go ballistic and warn him over Twitter that he’d better hope he didn’t have any tapes of their conversations.

    June 22nd is when he admits he didn’t have any tapes.

    He starts ranting about Clinton and Obama “colluding and obstructing” on June 25th and keeps it going through to the next day.

    The more I’m looking at these tweets, the more I’m thinking the event reported by the NYT happened around the 22nd, and that he spent days afterwards fuming on Twitter because he couldn’t just fire Mueller. I also cannot believe how much truly horrific stuff (even non-Russia related stuff) he spouted off on Twitter over the course of a single month that I had completely forgotten about. This guy is exhausting.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

    man, i cant believe its been a year of this nonsense. Dude, if it was phony then the investigation would uncover that, so if they find that you were obstructing the investigation, even if there was no original crime, guess what, thats still obstruction.

    Seriously if the obstruction over the russia investigation doesnt sink trump, no president will ever be worried about getting done for obstruction ever again.

    Well, no Republican President.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Man that Hannity pivot is really sticking in my craw.
    So maybe he wanted to fire Muller for conflict of interest. Doesn't he have a right to raise those questions?

    It's the original "just asking questions"

    He didn't tell anyone to rid him of that priest; he just asked if they might because the priest didn't like his golf course.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

    man, i cant believe its been a year of this nonsense. Dude, if it was phony then the investigation would uncover that, so if they find that you were obstructing the investigation, even if there was no original crime, guess what, thats still obstruction.

    Seriously if the obstruction over the russia investigation doesnt sink trump, no president will ever be worried about getting done for obstruction ever again.

    Well, no Republican President.

    If this doesn't do it, we might not have any other kind.

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  • TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    So the only reason stupid Watergate didn't have its own stupid Saturday night massacre is cause Trump is a coward.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    TNTrooper wrote: »
    So the only reason stupid Watergate didn't have its own stupid Saturday night massacre is cause Trump is a coward.

    for once his cowardice resulted in him doing the less stupid thing

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie ATOMIKA! IT’S ME! IT’S DESKTOP HIPPIE!Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    You know what? Forget all my Trump-tweet-study conjecture.

    CNN’s April Ryan was talking about “mass hysteria” in the White House over Trump possibly planning to fire Mueller on June 13th.

    Old CNN broadcast from June 13th 2017.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited January 2018
    Techcrunch has picked up the Dutch hacker story, and offered this article from last April

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-details-emerge-about-2014-russian-hack-of-the-state-department-it-was-hand-to-hand-combat/2017/04/03/d89168e0-124c-11e7-833c-503e1f6394c9_story.html?utm_term=.a281983c8f9e

    As the potential leak that pissed them off.
    The NSA was alerted to the compromises by a Western intelligence agency. The ally had managed to hack not only the Russians’ computers, but also the surveillance cameras inside their workspace, according to the former officials. They monitored the hackers as they maneuvered inside the U.S. systems and as they walked in and out of the workspace, and were able to see faces, the officials said.

    That's a hell of a thing to give away. I have to believe the link was thought to be long down for someone to let something like that pass their lips. Even then it's still incredibly reckless unless you knew they knew. And then it's still wildly inappropriate.
    *many googles later*
    So here's some wild speculation:

    Did that SVR facility go dark around the time Putin started rounding up leaks in the FSB?

    It's said that the FSB/GRU/SVR have an adversarial relationship; an example being the fact the latter two both breached the DNC seemingly unaware of, or minimally concerned with, the other's presence. Did they suspect the former of burning them, tragically unaware that the Dutch had all but built a windmill in the latter's server room?

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Reading that WaPo article, I have to give props to the dutch journalists who didn't seem to give away anything that wasn't already reported; just with more color. I was initially annoyed at them as well.

  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Okay the Dutch Broadcast Foundation, which is one of the organizations making up the Netherlands’ Public Broadcasting System, have provided a perfect English translation of the story about Dutch Intelligence witnessing the DNC hack.

    It also says they witnessed the hack of the State Department and the White House, and alerted US Intelligence each time.

    It's pretty... weird to learn this. I guess because of the popular media I consume (and because the US is a superpower, and the Netherlands is really tiny) I'd just sort of assumed the CIA would be way more competent (or at least, have way more info) than our AIVD, but it turns out our intelligence community is capable of some stuff too?

    And then the US didn't do anything with that info. Except talk too loudly about it and cut off our access.

    That's... yeah.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Not to minimize Belgium’s success, sometimes its all about luck and timing

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  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    Okay the Dutch Broadcast Foundation, which is one of the organizations making up the Netherlands’ Public Broadcasting System, have provided a perfect English translation of the story about Dutch Intelligence witnessing the DNC hack.

    It also says they witnessed the hack of the State Department and the White House, and alerted US Intelligence each time.

    It's pretty... weird to learn this. I guess because of the popular media I consume (and because the US is a superpower, and the Netherlands is really tiny) I'd just sort of assumed the CIA would be way more competent (or at least, have way more info) than our AIVD, but it turns out our intelligence community is capable of some stuff too?

    And then the US didn't do anything with that info. Except talk too loudly about it and cut off our access.

    That's... yeah.

    I'm wondering about the timing of it. NOS had "Summer 2014", which is pretty broad. If it's after July 17th, I can see why the AIVD went into full "Fuck Russia" modus, while other countries remained at their normal level of operations, but I think it predates that by a bit?

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Prohass wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I wonder if we can locate exactly when this happened by tweet.

    It mayyyyy have been June 15th. He certainly tweeted about the investigation then, and specifically mentioned the “phony” obstruction of justice accusations.

    Old Trump Tweet from the time period relevant to the NYT story.



    *edit* He also got very ranty on June 22nd and went on about how the DNC wouldn’t turn their servers over to the FBI and how the whole Russian collusion stuff was the Democrats making up an excuse for losing the election. I’ll spare the thread those tweets :P

    man, i cant believe its been a year of this nonsense. Dude, if it was phony then the investigation would uncover that, so if they find that you were obstructing the investigation, even if there was no original crime, guess what, thats still obstruction.

    Seriously if the obstruction over the russia investigation doesnt sink trump, no president will ever be worried about getting done for obstruction ever again.

    Well, no Republican President.

    If this doesn't do it, we might not have any other kind.

    Let's not do this please.

    Quid
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
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  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    TNTrooper wrote: »
    So the only reason stupid Watergate didn't have its own stupid Saturday night massacre is cause Trump is a coward.

    for once his cowardice resulted in him doing the less stupid thing
    I kind of wonder if it actually is

    At this point it's not looking super likely that Mueller is gonna clear him

    Maybe it is smarter to rip off the band-aid and count on the Republicans to keep being loyal stooges

    Mortious
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »

    Oh good lord, he denied it again, this morning.

    Not that I mind.

    Please continue telling blatant lies all the way up to your interview with Mueller, Mr President.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    Even Fox News confirmed the story

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  • VanguardVanguard Je suis le savant au fauteuil sombre. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited January 2018
    Trump is basically always operating in a position of having done something, not done something, confirmed he tried to do something, denied he did anything, lying about doing that thing, lying about not doing that thing, still trying to do the thing, and still trying to not do the thing.

    Everything is true and nothing is true.

    Vanguard on
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  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    This tweet is from a HuffPost reporter, but the video is the thing to watch



    I guess he at least admitted he was wrong, but wow

    PSN: JoeUser80 Steam
  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    Armchair Trumping and I'm Guilty as All Hell:

    1. Don't fire James Comey.
    2. Okay, I fucked this one up. Definitely fire Mueller.
    3. Go ham on being Donald Trump. Make every Republican fear a primary from my incredibly stupid base.
    4. Keep firing Mueller.
    5. Leave voluntarily after one term for bigger and better things (NBC's The Apprentice: Whie House Edition).

    You can't fire Mueller after he tells everyone all the crimes you did.

    MegaMek
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Trump is basically always operating in a position of having done something, not done something, confirmed he tried to do something, denied he did anything, lying about doing that thing, lying about not doing that thing, still trying to do the thing, and still trying to not do the thing.

    Everything is true and nothing is true.

    Schrodinger’s President. We won’t know if he’s guilty until Mueller opens the box and collapses the waveform.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This tweet is from a HuffPost reporter, but the video is the thing to watch



    I guess he at least admitted he was wrong, but wow

    I like how he did this in a way that gives him 23 hours to find a way to spin it as being ok.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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