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[Slay the Spire] THIS THREAD IS DEAD! POST IN THE NEW ONE!

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    kime wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Oh I do not like A17. These regular hallway fights are tough.

    A18 has been the biggest jump for me.
    I feel like this is as accurate as can be, because any deck I've cleared A17-19 with didn't struggle to do so, and likely could have won on A20. My A20 attempts so far have all been pretty bad busts, but I have yet to get to a second Act 3 boss to even have what A20 brings to the table matter. I'm just dying to all the A17+18+19 stuff. <_<

    ArcticLancer on
    kimemysticjuicerAuralynx
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Yup, it's brutal stuff. You'll get there though!

    Meanwhile, added another A20 Silent heart kill notch to my belt. Ornithoper with double alcehmize and no potion belt. Also a truly nutty amount of poison damage. Fun run! Deck and VoD below. i might be back streaming later this evening, we'll see
    005ED329439419DDD856F47257D84FDA0D67D60E

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited March 2019
    Oh man, not the run I thought was going to clear A20 ...
    tsfikc9y2239.png

    This is actually the 3rd A20 run where I got a common relic and it was Snecko Skull. :S Except, you know, this time I found poison cards ... Act 1 was entirely carried on an early Bouncing Flask I upgraded, and that I happened to get access to a Catalyst in a shop. Things definitely got better when I was given two more Catalysts through Act 2 and 3. Really thought things had shit the bed when I took that Act 2 Pandora's Box and got no defensive cards, and TWO Bullet Times, but I think it actually worked out. I ate the odd bad turn here and there, but the deck was just so good at getting things poisoned to death within the first 4 turns it didn't really matter. Like, I think I ended turn 1 against the giant head with it half dead and sitting on 85 poison stacks? Similarly the second boss was Time Eater, who I killed without a reset because that's just what the deck did. It wasn't good enough to have perfected anything outside of the odd hallway fight, but it was certainly good enough.
    Oh, and obviously, the relic that recovers 25HP at each boss 100% carried me. I'm pretty sure I would have died in Act 2 without it, and I definitely ended Act 3 with less than 50 health (I didn't take a ton of damage, but it let me upgrade instead of rest a couple times, which was a pretty big deal for rounding out those Catalysts).

    ArcticLancer on
    The Zombie PenguinmysticjuicerAuralynxMNC DoverMarty81Elvenshae
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Random thoughts:

    Scores are dumb. This deck was awful. These two are connected. (seriously, the score this deck got vs how... crap it was is just moderately infuriating)

    I should apparently be recording more often? I keep scoring wins when i'm not recording.

    Toy Ornithopter is really growing on me

    Dead Branch on the first elite was pretty cool, and probably the only reason the deck didnt fall over. It also had the worst poison engine for most of the game: Deadly Poison, Deadly Poison+x2, Crippling Cloud, Catalyst+, Catalyst.

    @ArcticLancer is officially a badass Spire Slayer and deserves all the props (Now! Go! EAT THE HEART. Seriously, get a feed and chomp right on down on that juicy muscle)

    I should be in bed, not playing StS at 2 am.

    Finding Noxious Fumes in Act 3 after fusion hammer with no snecko skull feels real bad.

    Here's a decklist:
    4FF7C6B04FE7F81893C1FBA569B677C0F185689C[img][/img]

    Comedy routines aside, i'm curious what, if any balance changes people would make to the game right now? I think my one would be a small one: Bump Snecko Skull up to uncommon, and drop Tingsha down to Uncommon or Common. (Reasoning being: Snecko Skull is crazy strong for how often you can find it and how much it does. Tingsha is nowhere near strong enough to be Rare, and making it show up more often would open up deck-building a bit more for Silent. Tough Bandages is fine where it is, as Defense > Offense, so it's right and proper that defensive relics of that power are rare)

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    D'aww, thanks my dude~
    It feels telling that I've officially got an A20 win under my belt, and I don't feel remotely capable of meaningfully answering questions on balance. :P

    The Zombie Penguinkime
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I'm not even confident the Snecko Skull change is a good one, though i think the Tingsha would be. (If nothing else, it improves Storm of Steel, a card that is... iffy currently. Gods above and below my deck wanted Storm of Steel though)

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    I started a new run and chose the "Lose all gold for a Rare card" with Ironclad. My options were:

    Fiend Fire, Dark Embrace, and Offering

    All are good, but I went with Fiend Fire. Mostly because my boss was the Slime (lots of Slime cards to burn) and Offering doesn't deal damage or grant immediate impact early on. Let's see how it goes!

    Edit: Spot the Weakness and Feel No Pain?! Hell yeah!
    Edit 2: 5 Slimes after first Elite. Of course. Guess I wasn't allowed to win this time. :)

    MNC Dover on
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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Heh, I remember recently taking "random rare" in an Ironclad run. I got Exhume. I didn't find a card that exhausted things before I died. Good bonus. :thumbs up:

    mysticjuicer
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Oh, an interesting note since I can track it easily - I've got 167 hours logged for A20. I may have wasted the odd hour having the game open, but nothing too crazy, so it's pretty accurate.

    mysticjuicer
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Comedy routines aside, i'm curious what, if any balance changes people would make to the game right now? I think my one would be a small one: Bump Snecko Skull up to uncommon, and drop Tingsha down to Uncommon or Common. (Reasoning being: Snecko Skull is crazy strong for how often you can find it and how much it does. Tingsha is nowhere near strong enough to be Rare, and making it show up more often would open up deck-building a bit more for Silent. Tough Bandages is fine where it is, as Defense > Offense, so it's right and proper that defensive relics of that power are rare)

    I'd buff Doom & Gloom to the point where it was worth taking, similar to the treatment Immolate got, and lower the cost of Meteor Strike to 4 (and maybe cut the orbs) so it wasn't unplayable without already having a lot of pieces in place. I'd probably also buff Clothesline somehow since it's just on the wrong side of good at the moment.

    I'd probably consider moving the Strange Spoon and Chemical X into the regular drop tables, too, so you'd have more chance of being able to try to build around either.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I actually think Doom and Gloom is in an OK spot now.

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  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    Snecko eye could probably draw one less extra card.

    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    It'd be nice if you could refuse the relic from the Pleading Vagrant once you find out what it is.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I'd add options for Accept/Refuse when possible, along with showing rewards during Events. Like in the Augmenter Event, you're given the option of:
    • Get JAXXED
    • Choose and Transform 2 cards
    • Gain a special Relic

    It shows you what the JAX card is when the option is hovered, but doesn't show what the special Relic does. I think that's a UI oversight, especially since the Relic isn't random.

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    I don't have any insights on "fixing it", but I do feel like Time Eater is disproportionately powerful compared to the awoken one and the shapes. Like, both of those have interesting ways that the fight scales and you need to combat it, but Time Eater starts out of the gate hitting for like 30+ 3 out of 4 turns while breaking your draws and forcing the card limit. Both other Act 3 bosses feel much easier to undertake with a balanced deck, or one that would be "weaker" to those bosses strengths. Time Eater can be difficult even with a decent deck for fighting him. Guy is just a jerk like little else in the game is. :P

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Comedy routines aside, i'm curious what, if any balance changes people would make to the game right now? I think my one would be a small one: Bump Snecko Skull up to uncommon, and drop Tingsha down to Uncommon or Common. (Reasoning being: Snecko Skull is crazy strong for how often you can find it and how much it does. Tingsha is nowhere near strong enough to be Rare, and making it show up more often would open up deck-building a bit more for Silent. Tough Bandages is fine where it is, as Defense > Offense, so it's right and proper that defensive relics of that power are rare)

    I'd buff Doom & Gloom to the point where it was worth taking, similar to the treatment Immolate got, and lower the cost of Meteor Strike to 4 (and maybe cut the orbs) so it wasn't unplayable without already having a lot of pieces in place. I'd probably also buff Clothesline somehow since it's just on the wrong side of good at the moment.

    I'd probably consider moving the Strange Spoon and Chemical X into the regular drop tables, too, so you'd have more chance of being able to try to build around either.

    Huh! See, i think Doom and Gloom is already really good - It's a powerful AoE card early, and late game it's damage is not irrelevant... and it gives you a dark orb. which is a big deal. For an uncommon, it's one of my favourites.

    Meteorstrike is fine where it is - i think having unplayable cards with payoff if you can play them is okay, and meteor strike's not that demanding - Snecko Eye or Runic Pyramid (With Double energy, or a recycle+) can turn it on easily. And again, Clothseline is one i feel is fine - Weak is good, it's a common attack that gives you weak. it's not amazing or anything, but i feel like commons being only-okay-to-good is... fine?

    The strange spoon/chemical x one is interesting though. My only issue is that it could be really feel bad to get strange spoon and have to skip, and Chemical X is probably too good to get for free, but kinda bad if it's at Rare?

    Also interesting to see @ArcticLancer mention Time Eater - i feel like he's tough, but not.. that tough? I find Awoken One a lot scarier, frankly. Though this may be a result of aiming to kill the heart - a lot of what's good vs the heart also is good vs Ol Sluggyboi. Awoken One just has soooo much HP and you cant even combo him down like you can Time Eater.

    Still! Really interesting perspectives and idea here =D

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    Making Discard-Silent a bit more consistent would be cool, imo. There are so many cards in that package and it still feels like the hardest type of synergy to get to a strong place at Asc 17+.

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Making Discard-Silent a bit more consistent would be cool, imo. There are so many cards in that package and it still feels like the hardest type of synergy to get to a strong place at Asc 17+.

    I think part of it's problem is it's main payoffs cardwise (Reflex and Tactican) are basically untakable without a critical mass of discard cards, and you just... dont tend to lean into discard too heavily because it runs counter to other good things you could be doing. That and like, the good relics for it are what - Icecream, Unceasing Top, Tingsha and Tough Bandages. Which are all rare. I guess icecream's a bit questioanble, but storing energy from discarding tacticians at the end of turn or things is a good plan.

    And a lot of the good discard cards are also uncommon or higher - and even then, like... What. Calculated Gamble is probably the best of the lot? All out attack or whatever it is (1e, 10 damage AoE, discard a card at random) would be a lot better if you could pick, Unload is super finnicky to use and tends to fuck with well laid plans...

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    Yeah, it might need a Rare power on the order of “whenever you discard a card, draw a card.” Basically a Dark Embrace for discard instead of exhaust. It could replace Tools of the Trade maybe? Make it cost 3 energy, since most of the discard cards are cheap or free.

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Maybe? I think discard needs more if an enabler than a payoff right now - it's payoff cards are in reflex and tactican. The enabler part is the hard bit.

    I suspect if you really wanted to make it work, make tools if the trade cost 2, draw 2 (3 when upgraded) and discard one. Acrobatics on a stick, and strong enough you can look at taking it outside of dedicated discard decks. Might be way too good though that's a lot of card draw and it has to be asked...

    Does silent really need the power?

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    I honestly like Tools Of The Trade the way it is. It fits into the archtype fine, is generally _not bad_, and has the odd niche of being solid for coping with your worst curses. I actually enjoy it as being a "net even" discard effect card since basically everything else in the archtype is card-negative (acrobatics is the one exception I can think of).
    It's probably equally terrible and busted, but I could imagine a common/uncommon relic that's something like "whenever you discard 3 cards, draw a card."

  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    I guess I just don’t think any of the discard cards are good enough to take when they show up. Like, all of them fall under “has to be upgraded to be pickable” and also “you have to already have 3 other cards in your deck that synergies with this before you pick it.” It’s the “must have 5 years experience” requirement for an entry level job issue.

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    Okay, Dagger Throw is a decent damage common. And Calculated Gamble is... alright on its own.

    mysticjuicer on
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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Acrobatics really isn't bad with access to an energy relic of some sort. It's a steep price for draw at the base 3, but I feel really similar about a lot of Defect cards (Skim being the most obvious example). I also like Sneaky Strike, but it's also not completely reliant on discard to be meaningful. I wish I could say similar about Eviscerate ...
    But like, I largely agree with you. I like Prepared as a card, but it's just not good enough until it's upgraded. Even some simple alternatives like Survive would be great if you could reasonably get more than 1 copy.

    mysticjuicer
  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    I was curious, so I looked up all the cards that have the word 'discard' in them.

    Survivor (Starter)
    Acrobatics (Common)
    Dagger Throw (Common)
    Prepared (Common)
    Sneaky Strike (Common)
    All Out Attack (Uncommon)
    Calculated Gamble (Uncommon)
    Concentrate (Uncommon)
    Eviscerate (Uncommon)
    Reflex (Uncommon)
    Tactician (Uncommon)
    Storm of Steel (Rare)
    Tools of the Trade (Rare)
    Unload (Rare)

    Seems to me like Dagger Throw(C), All Out Attack(U), Storm of Steel(R), and Unload(R) are good enough on their own that you might pick them in Act 1, with no other support. Acrobatics gets really nice at 4 energy, but you can't guarantee finding that at the Act 1 boss, even. Maybe discard builds should always roll for a boss relic? Or rather, if you have rolled for a boss relic, you should more strongly consider discard effects?

    mysticjuicer on
    narwhal wrote:
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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    That list is missing Eviscerate, but I think you got everything else.
    Ultimately, discard as an archtype is maybe most hampered by how it tends to cost you energy to discard cards, but you still need to actually play cards to have effective turns. The passive effects of discarding are just too limited (the two main relics and the two damage cards potentially becoming playable). And all of this still comes with having to have picked up numerous pieces for it to even start to be as effective as other strategies ... So yeah, maybe a power at uncommon with a "when you discard a card, ..." effect would go a long way?

    mysticjuicer
  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    That list is missing Eviscerate, but I think you got everything else.

    I don't consider Eviscerate an actual card. :bzz: (Edited the original post to add it - thanks for the catch.)

    mysticjuicer on
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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    You're forgiven for that. I wince every time I get one from a transform event. :P

    mysticjuicerkime
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    edited March 2019
    Maybe I should re-evaluate D&G as part of a vs-bosses with summons package, but I think it ought to be like 12/18 upgraded and tick + create like Darkness+ on the upgrade.

    Clothesline is okay base and an eh upgrade, which is the part I object to.

    I'm not sure I agree that needing to hit Snecko or a relic+card combo counts as "not demanding," and think you're being influenced by a what-works-at-A20 perspective there. I'm coming more from a mindset that my run shouldn't be over if I don't luck into something strong early perspective - if Meteor did the same kinda-poor damage, gave 2 orbs, and cost 4 you could fire it up by Act 2 easily in most decks if you wanted to.

    I'd again cite the make-Immolate-playable revisions they did as evidence that rares are meant to just work more often than not.

    Auralynx on
    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Ironically, I wouldn't doubt Immolate is slightly overtuned, so it might not be a good benchmark. :P

    mysticjuicer
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Yeah I'm gonna have to take a break from StS for a while. A17's difficulty spike is a bit too much for me right now. I'll come back later with a fresh mindset. It's how I got over the A13 hump.

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    I've found Endless Mode to be really calming, after a bunch of failed Asc 20 runs. Built an invincible Silent deck recently that was 35 cards, but I pared it down to just 10 by the end, thanks to toking and the mask relic. Final version was:

    Ascender's Bane
    Wraith Form+
    Nighmare+
    Corpse Explosion+
    Burst+
    Catalyst+
    Catalyst+
    Ritual Dagger+ (300+ damage)
    Ritual Dagger+ (300+ damage)
    Terror+

    If Ritual Daggers could kill the enemies, I played them. If there were more than 2 enemies, Corpse Explosion on the highest-HP enemy, then Ritual Dagger to clear the mob. If that didn't work, Wraith Form, then Burst Nightmare (on Catalyst twice), Burst Corpse Explosion. Next turn, play 6 Catalyst+ to stack 14K damage.

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  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Ironically, I wouldn't doubt Immolate is slightly overtuned, so it might not be a good benchmark. :P

    It is, at this point, but the revision from "exhaust another card with conditions for bad damage for the AP" to the monster it is now took a few steps and reflects a particular idea of how the game should work.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    I know I've been particularly posty today - I'll take a break for the rest of the day I promise. But before I go I want to share some YouTube videos by Forgotten Arbiter. What I love about Arbiter is that they take a completely different approach to the game than any other streamer or YouTuber I've seen, which is that they dig through tons of seeds and then do crazy-ass runs to exploit the most unique among them. They're more like... Slay the Spire performance art then the standard approach to the game. And wow, some of their recent videos have been amazing.

    How about this one, where they beat the heart without having any cards in their deck?



    Or this one, where they kill the heart on turn 1?



    They've done some score attacks in the past, and some different weird stuff like Fastest completion of (almost) all the achievements! Compelling watching, imo.

    narwhal wrote:
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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    The first time I ever saw someone play the Heart, they killed it turn 1. Corruption + Dead Branch is busted, yo :P

    Then they patched the Heart.....

    (Also, posts are good! Don't stop posting)

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    This is a post-patch turn 1 heart kill. 😎

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    This is a post-patch turn 1 heart kill. 😎

    lol

    So to be clear, both of those are almost more exploiting bugs than fun seeds. But funny to watch anyways :D

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  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    The latter video yes, the former no.

    narwhal wrote:
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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    The latter video yes, the former no.

    I mean, they bugged it out to get only two cards in the deck initially. I've seen that bug on speedruns before. The way they beat the Heart is great and 100% bug-free though, yeah :D

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I think I don’t like the ironclad. I thought it would be silent, but I’ve had better experiences with her. Most of my ironclad runs are “you didn’t get whirlwind oops you died.” Silent starts slow but can become unkillable.

    And defect will always be my favorite wizard robot.

    Whirlwind? Pssh! Who needs that?

    Get yourself a Barricade/Body Slam, self-damage/Combust, or exhaust/Block/damage deck going. That's where the money is at.

    I never find the right cards for a block build until it’s too late.

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