A lot of core material for tempo mage is in the base set: Fireball, Frostbolt, Mana Wyrm, Sorc Apprentice. But it DOES need support from the surrounding sets.
I theorycrafted a new Secret minion to start building a new type of Secret Mage:
The idea is that you are basically swapping your equipped Secret with another one from your deck. This has the benefit of making your opponent have to figure out what this new Secret might be, especially if they've already checked for 1-2 types already.
The body is great for just playing it out on turn 4 even without the Battlecry. The ability could backfire if you get the exact Secret you want in play and it swaps for one you don't want. Could also act as a Hail Mary to pull an Ice Block or something. Or allow you to take a useless Secret out of play (say an early Ice Block) and swap it for something more proactive. Given the randomness of the card though, it could simply pull the same Secret again.
Thoughts? Fun? Good? Bad?
I would be very pleased if Blizzard printed this card, I like it a bunch.
This may be way too memey, but I’d love the following as a Rogue card: Information Broker: 3 mana, 0/4, with the ability “At the end of each players turn, if they control a Secret, add a secret to their opponent’s hand.”
Basically a Loremaster Cho for secrets.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
tempo mage is really reliant on a bunch of cards that are rotating, especially with the corridor creeper nerf; it's possible that some new aggro mage will appear but their default stuff doesn't support it very well and not that much from knights/kobolds does either
Excuse me sir, have you heard the good news about Explosive Runes and Aluneth?
Secret Mage loses exactly two important cards (Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh’s Valet). It won’t take much for it to remain meta-relevant. Above, I posted a theoretical “even if nothing new is good” decklist that should still be at least T2 IMO.
Those are pretty important cards, ones that generate most of the tempo of the deck, in fact.
It's also likely that ice block will be HoF'd. Not sure if mages are running that these days or not.
Some secret mages run an Ice Block, some don't. I would imagine it being run more consistently after the rotation if secret mages end up having to run Ethereal Arcanist.
It's very likely that the deck isn't Secret Mage after rotation. The thing that makes it Secret Mage is the number of "secrets matter" cards they can play - Arcanologist, Valet, Crystal Runner, Lackey, Kirin Tor Mage. The deck probably returns to a more traditional tempo package once you lose half your "cheat a secret out for free" cards, and the payoff of a cheap 5/5. It may even wind up in a position where the only secret it's playing is Explosive Runes. I would draw the comparison to the Flamewaker decks that defined Tempo Mage before that played cards like Arcane Missiles. You don't run Arcane Missiles when you don't have the payoff of the cards that like Arcane Missiles. Likewise, you probably don't play the Secret strategy as hard once part of your package doesn't exist. I'd be very surprised if they move to an Arcanist payoff.
I theorycrafted a new Secret minion to start building a new type of Secret Mage:
The idea is that you are basically swapping your equipped Secret with another one from your deck. This has the benefit of making your opponent have to figure out what this new Secret might be, especially if they've already checked for 1-2 types already.
The body is great for just playing it out on turn 4 even without the Battlecry. The ability could backfire if you get the exact Secret you want in play and it swaps for one you don't want. Could also act as a Hail Mary to pull an Ice Block or something. Or allow you to take a useless Secret out of play (say an early Ice Block) and swap it for something more proactive. Given the randomness of the card though, it could simply pull the same Secret again.
Thoughts? Fun? Good? Bad?
I would be very pleased if Blizzard printed this card, I like it a bunch.
I think I'd like it more with a bit more controlled play. Instead of shuffling the equipped one right away, remove it from game, equip a secret from deck, and then shuffle removed secret into the deck. Like how Mulligan works. It's more skill for the player playing it and less potential RNG effect of being a 'do nothing' 4/5, which I mean... Chillwind is still pretty good.
It's very likely that the deck isn't Secret Mage after rotation. The thing that makes it Secret Mage is the number of "secrets matter" cards they can play - Arcanologist, Valet, Crystal Runner, Lackey, Kirin Tor Mage. The deck probably returns to a more traditional tempo package once you lose half your "cheat a secret out for free" cards, and the payoff of a cheap 5/5. It may even wind up in a position where the only secret it's playing is Explosive Runes. I would draw the comparison to the Flamewaker decks that defined Tempo Mage before that played cards like Arcane Missiles. You don't run Arcane Missiles when you don't have the payoff of the cards that like Arcane Missiles. Likewise, you probably don't play the Secret strategy as hard once part of your package doesn't exist. I'd be very surprised if they move to an Arcanist payoff.
This too, was my thought process.
There's already some Very Good neutral Tempo minions: Fire Fly, Saronite Chain Gang, Cobalt Scalebane, Bonemare (is Bonemare still good? Tempo Mage might not even want something so top heavy considering Aluneth), etc etc. Losing Corridor Creeper from that list kinda hurts, that was the backbone of every Tempo-based list. But you can slap those in as the basis for a Tempo list and fill everything else out accordingly.
So those can form the basis, and I'm sure some good minions will get printed in the next set (they might even try to push non-Control minions for Mage specifically which would be cool). There's also some underutilized Mage minions which could be good, like Water Elemental and Ghastly Conjurer (which could actually be REALLY good for Tempo Lists, getting to cast out two 0/2 taunts to protect your face/your board is super valuable. That slows down aggro decks pretty well too.)
Arcanologist and Explosive Runes stay in for sure because those are amazing cards. But without Valet/Crystal Runner/Lackey, it's not really worth running Kirin Tor Mage and Other Secrets. There's not enough of a backbone otherwise to make running something like Counterspell worthwhile.
It's very likely that the deck isn't Secret Mage after rotation. The thing that makes it Secret Mage is the number of "secrets matter" cards they can play - Arcanologist, Valet, Crystal Runner, Lackey, Kirin Tor Mage. The deck probably returns to a more traditional tempo package once you lose half your "cheat a secret out for free" cards, and the payoff of a cheap 5/5. It may even wind up in a position where the only secret it's playing is Explosive Runes. I would draw the comparison to the Flamewaker decks that defined Tempo Mage before that played cards like Arcane Missiles. You don't run Arcane Missiles when you don't have the payoff of the cards that like Arcane Missiles. Likewise, you probably don't play the Secret strategy as hard once part of your package doesn't exist. I'd be very surprised if they move to an Arcanist payoff.
This too, was my thought process.
There's already some Very Good neutral Tempo minions: Fire Fly, Saronite Chain Gang, Cobalt Scalebane, Bonemare (is Bonemare still good? Tempo Mage might not even want something so top heavy considering Aluneth), etc etc. Losing Corridor Creeper from that list kinda hurts, that was the backbone of every Tempo-based list. But you can slap those in as the basis for a Tempo list and fill everything else out accordingly.
So those can form the basis, and I'm sure some good minions will get printed in the next set (they might even try to push non-Control minions for Mage specifically which would be cool). There's also some underutilized Mage minions which could be good, like Water Elemental and Ghastly Conjurer (which could actually be REALLY good for Tempo Lists, getting to cast out two 0/2 taunts to protect your face/your board is super valuable. That slows down aggro decks pretty well too.)
Arcanologist and Explosive Runes stay in for sure because those are amazing cards. But without Valet/Crystal Runner/Lackey, it's not really worth running Kirin Tor Mage and Other Secrets. There's not enough of a backbone otherwise to make running something like Counterspell worthwhile.
Kirin Tor Mage is a 4/3 with a very strong upside. If it gets pushed out, I think that it'll be because Mages switch fully to an elemental build.
Why run Pyros in a tempo deck? Why run Aluneth with almost no burn?
Also:
- Arcane Artificer (Control card, not Tempo)
- Shimmering Tempest (horrendous statline, not good enough, worse loot hoarder because it doesn't actually cycle)
- Frozen Clone (worse Mirror Entity, clogs hand considering Aluneth)
- Antonidas (not enough support/cheap spells to make him worthwhile, Tempo decks would rather just run Pyroblast as a finisher instead)
A 2 mana 2/2 is bad tempo, a 6 mana 6/6 is bad tempo, and a 10 mana 10/10 is bad tempo.
There, I really disagree.
A tempo deck needs to ensure that it's putting out something each turn that needs to be dealt with. Tempo isn't necessarily about the size of minions, it's about the steadiness of threats. Pyros fits that bill ably. The biggest issue with it is that it's built for a meta of 3/2 and 2/1 minions, and we have a meta of 2/3 and 1/1 divine shield and 1/3 minions.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
The problem is, you don't have to expend any resources to deal with a 2 mana 2/2 or a 6 mana 6/6. in order to be a threat, it needs to force an answer.
You just play a good minion on curve and get a favorable trade.
Example, You play Pyros on 2, opponent plays river crock on 2. Maybe there is some face damage, but at the end of it opponent has a 2/1 and you have nothing. You are forced to answer the 2/1 by expending something, not your opponent.
Pyros isn't even 'good' vs a 3/2. If Opponent goes first and plays a 3/2 and you play pyros, they get to sink 3 damage into your face and you are forced to trade.
And even If you go first and play Pyros and Opponent plays a 3/2 you are still forced to make the trade or start taking more damage than you are dealing.
Zalae made a video not to long ago where he defined tempo as strength on board, and value as strength in hand. That's a little simple, but not a terrible definition.
I prefer thinking of it as "the person with tempo, dictates trades". You are never going to be the one choosing when and what to trade when you are playing a 2 mana 2/2.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Pyros was played in tempo-style Mage decks pre-Aluneth because it was an early threat that replaced itself. The deck tended to run out of steam with only two Arcane Intellects for refill, so a warm body on two that gave you a beater on six was worth running. Now, with Aluneth, that's not necessary because you have infinite gas.
Example, You play Pyros on 2, opponent plays river crock on 2. Maybe there is some face damage, but at the end of it opponent has a 2/1 and you have nothing. You are forced to answer the 2/1 by expending something, not your opponent.
There are decks you play against that don't plan to play a minion on turn two, or for most of the early game. That's the decks where Pyros does well, because it gets free chip damage in and effectively cycles whenever they get around to casting a board wipe. For the games where you have to fight over board that's where you rely on Mana Wyrm and Frostbolt and the like to get you ahead.
Also a 6/6 is almost never trivial to deal with. Decks aren't playing Boulderfist Ogres to eat it, you're almost always going to have to trade multiple minions into it or use a removal spell. (Or, well, ignore it and go face, which is the real issue. But again, Pyros is basically a tech card for slower matchups, so that's expected that it's worse against aggro.)
Spiteful summoner, is almost always going to deal with a 6 mana 6/6 trivially. That and Tarim are the only tempo 6 drops played in teir 1 decks right now.
Ugh. Playing as Quest Rogue, I lost three straight against Combo Priest.
They all went the same way. I didn't draw any Glacial Shards, my opponent was eventually able to stick a minion on the board, and they all had Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Inner Fire. Or in one case, Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Inner Fire. All of my opponents were "Your Opponent." I sent the last guy a friend request because I was curious as to whether they were all the same guy. No response.
But I also destroyed a Cubelock, a Big Spell Mage and a Zoolock, so on the whole I'm happy.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
"hey dibby why don'cha check out that wildfest and do some wild arena"
"k"
then i get a crappy deck like this and go 2-3 :rotate:
yeah uh, seriously, my draft options were shit. this wasn't me picking shitty cards and making a shitty deck, this was me picking the least shitty option out of three and trying to make do anyway
and then my next draft i get a mechwarper VERY early
and get offered zero mechs after :rotate:
okayyyyyyyy
that's the problem with wild arena, the sets are TOO fucking large and there's just an enormous amount of crap to sift through
Pyros will never trade well since every meta deck is designed to cheat out value. The "value" of pyros doesn't interact with any other part of your deck, like every other cheat out value deck out there
Pyros will never trade well since every meta deck is designed to cheat out value. The "value" of pyros doesn't interact with any other part of your deck, like every other cheat out value deck out there
The problem with pyros is you have to pay full price for its value and if you're not cheating 10+ mana worth of stuff out without paying for it you can't compete
(also in hindsight i should've played out the mirror images as soon as i played down conjurer to prevent chargers, but that's what explosive runes is for, so hey)
What is Blizzard's stance on OTK decks and how does that relate to the Priest Inner Fire decks? i.e., is it considered okay or not okay?
I imagine it kinda depends on how it's defined. Is OTK "I have 30 face damage here in my hand/deck and I'm going to play it all in one turn," or is it "I have to put these pieces into play, and if they stay in play, then on this turn there's 30 face damage," because I know for me, the former feels like a pretty shitty direction for the game.
Yea the examples I can think of are ice lance, leeroy and raza that all let you hit an otk (or close to it, I'm not doing math) straight from hand. Took them forever to come around on raza.
Quest mage is maybe the only otk they intentionally designed, so while it's in one turn, they think you have enough chances to win before it comes out or there are enough tech cards that break it
What is Blizzard's stance on OTK decks and how does that relate to the Priest Inner Fire decks? i.e., is it considered okay or not okay?
Blizzard doesn't like OTKs but only really addresses them if they start approaching some high win% which has never been revealed.
If the OTK is easy to pull off, baked into the base set, or oppressive, it will probably be changed. I think that the OTK priest lists meet at least one of these requirements, but it is aided heavily by Shadow Visions, so who knows if they'll do anything about it.
What is Blizzard's stance on OTK decks and how does that relate to the Priest Inner Fire decks? i.e., is it considered okay or not okay?
I imagine it kinda depends on how it's defined. Is OTK "I have 30 face damage here in my hand/deck and I'm going to play it all in one turn," or is it "I have to put these pieces into play, and if they stay in play, then on this turn there's 30 face damage," because I know for me, the former feels like a pretty shitty direction for the game.
What is Blizzard's stance on OTK decks and how does that relate to the Priest Inner Fire decks? i.e., is it considered okay or not okay?
I imagine it kinda depends on how it's defined. Is OTK "I have 30 face damage here in my hand/deck and I'm going to play it all in one turn," or is it "I have to put these pieces into play, and if they stay in play, then on this turn there's 30 face damage," because I know for me, the former feels like a pretty shitty direction for the game.
With the twilight acolyte OTK priests's win condition is "my opponent has a minion with some amount of health and I have 4 cards which can be shadow visioned for"
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I would be very pleased if Blizzard printed this card, I like it a bunch.
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Basically a Loremaster Cho for secrets.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Those are pretty important cards, ones that generate most of the tempo of the deck, in fact.
It's also likely that ice block will be HoF'd. Not sure if mages are running that these days or not.
Not sure how, but I pulled a win out of my ass like a friggin' Houdini.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I think I'd like it more with a bit more controlled play. Instead of shuffling the equipped one right away, remove it from game, equip a secret from deck, and then shuffle removed secret into the deck. Like how Mulligan works. It's more skill for the player playing it and less potential RNG effect of being a 'do nothing' 4/5, which I mean... Chillwind is still pretty good.
This too, was my thought process.
There's already some Very Good neutral Tempo minions: Fire Fly, Saronite Chain Gang, Cobalt Scalebane, Bonemare (is Bonemare still good? Tempo Mage might not even want something so top heavy considering Aluneth), etc etc. Losing Corridor Creeper from that list kinda hurts, that was the backbone of every Tempo-based list. But you can slap those in as the basis for a Tempo list and fill everything else out accordingly.
So those can form the basis, and I'm sure some good minions will get printed in the next set (they might even try to push non-Control minions for Mage specifically which would be cool). There's also some underutilized Mage minions which could be good, like Water Elemental and Ghastly Conjurer (which could actually be REALLY good for Tempo Lists, getting to cast out two 0/2 taunts to protect your face/your board is super valuable. That slows down aggro decks pretty well too.)
Arcanologist and Explosive Runes stay in for sure because those are amazing cards. But without Valet/Crystal Runner/Lackey, it's not really worth running Kirin Tor Mage and Other Secrets. There's not enough of a backbone otherwise to make running something like Counterspell worthwhile.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Kirin Tor Mage is a 4/3 with a very strong upside. If it gets pushed out, I think that it'll be because Mages switch fully to an elemental build.
Something like:
Arcane Artificer × 2
Fire Fly × 2
Mana Wyrm × 2
Arcanologist × 2
Flame Geyser × 2
Frostbolt × 2
Primordial Glyph × 2
Pyros × 1
Shimmering Tempest × 2
Explosive Runes × 2
Frozen Clone × 2
Fire Plume Phoenix × 2
Fireball × 2
Steam Surger × 2
Aluneth × 1
Archmage Antonidas × 1
Blazecaller × 1
Also:
- Arcane Artificer (Control card, not Tempo)
- Shimmering Tempest (horrendous statline, not good enough, worse loot hoarder because it doesn't actually cycle)
- Frozen Clone (worse Mirror Entity, clogs hand considering Aluneth)
- Antonidas (not enough support/cheap spells to make him worthwhile, Tempo decks would rather just run Pyroblast as a finisher instead)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Pyros is a tempo card. It's a two drop that eventually comes back (usually).
A 2 mana 2/2 is bad tempo, a 6 mana 6/6 is bad tempo, and a 10 mana 10/10 is bad tempo.
Pyros is only a good card when compared to say, loot hoarder, in that it has more value, but less use as cycle.
The point is with Aluneth, you never run out of value until your deck is empty, so making value plays at the cost of tempo is bad news.
3 cards / turn will mill you fast, and in just 4 turns will fatigue you as well.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
A tempo deck needs to ensure that it's putting out something each turn that needs to be dealt with. Tempo isn't necessarily about the size of minions, it's about the steadiness of threats. Pyros fits that bill ably. The biggest issue with it is that it's built for a meta of 3/2 and 2/1 minions, and we have a meta of 2/3 and 1/1 divine shield and 1/3 minions.
You just play a good minion on curve and get a favorable trade.
Example, You play Pyros on 2, opponent plays river crock on 2. Maybe there is some face damage, but at the end of it opponent has a 2/1 and you have nothing. You are forced to answer the 2/1 by expending something, not your opponent.
Pyros isn't even 'good' vs a 3/2. If Opponent goes first and plays a 3/2 and you play pyros, they get to sink 3 damage into your face and you are forced to trade.
And even If you go first and play Pyros and Opponent plays a 3/2 you are still forced to make the trade or start taking more damage than you are dealing.
Zalae made a video not to long ago where he defined tempo as strength on board, and value as strength in hand. That's a little simple, but not a terrible definition.
I prefer thinking of it as "the person with tempo, dictates trades". You are never going to be the one choosing when and what to trade when you are playing a 2 mana 2/2.
^^'
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
There are decks you play against that don't plan to play a minion on turn two, or for most of the early game. That's the decks where Pyros does well, because it gets free chip damage in and effectively cycles whenever they get around to casting a board wipe. For the games where you have to fight over board that's where you rely on Mana Wyrm and Frostbolt and the like to get you ahead.
Also a 6/6 is almost never trivial to deal with. Decks aren't playing Boulderfist Ogres to eat it, you're almost always going to have to trade multiple minions into it or use a removal spell. (Or, well, ignore it and go face, which is the real issue. But again, Pyros is basically a tech card for slower matchups, so that's expected that it's worse against aggro.)
Ugh. Playing as Quest Rogue, I lost three straight against Combo Priest.
They all went the same way. I didn't draw any Glacial Shards, my opponent was eventually able to stick a minion on the board, and they all had Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Inner Fire. Or in one case, Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Inner Fire. All of my opponents were "Your Opponent." I sent the last guy a friend request because I was curious as to whether they were all the same guy. No response.
But I also destroyed a Cubelock, a Big Spell Mage and a Zoolock, so on the whole I'm happy.
"k"
then i get a crappy deck like this and go 2-3 :rotate:
yeah uh, seriously, my draft options were shit. this wasn't me picking shitty cards and making a shitty deck, this was me picking the least shitty option out of three and trying to make do anyway
and then my next draft i get a mechwarper VERY early
and get offered zero mechs after :rotate:
okayyyyyyyy
that's the problem with wild arena, the sets are TOO fucking large and there's just an enormous amount of crap to sift through
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
:?
I'd be stoked for a free Legendary of my choice.
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Good to know that Arena's skill at promoting synergy is still operating at peak levels.
The skull calls to me ...
i'm 5-0 with this deck so far because IT IS BEASTLY ANYWAY
i've even pulled off blastmage a few times too (i miss that card)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
The problem with pyros is you have to pay full price for its value and if you're not cheating 10+ mana worth of stuff out without paying for it you can't compete
Craft OTK Priest!
WELP
7-0 NOW
I JUST HAD A REALLY INTENSE GAME VS A PALADIN
including an epic top deck wars finale
https://hsreplay.net/replay/dKQhpfm5cnsgg9s79ZDrjU
WHEW i did not expect to win that one
jesussss
(also in hindsight i should've played out the mirror images as soon as i played down conjurer to prevent chargers, but that's what explosive runes is for, so hey)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
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I imagine it kinda depends on how it's defined. Is OTK "I have 30 face damage here in my hand/deck and I'm going to play it all in one turn," or is it "I have to put these pieces into play, and if they stay in play, then on this turn there's 30 face damage," because I know for me, the former feels like a pretty shitty direction for the game.
Quest mage is maybe the only otk they intentionally designed, so while it's in one turn, they think you have enough chances to win before it comes out or there are enough tech cards that break it
Blizzard doesn't like OTKs but only really addresses them if they start approaching some high win% which has never been revealed.
If the OTK is easy to pull off, baked into the base set, or oppressive, it will probably be changed. I think that the OTK priest lists meet at least one of these requirements, but it is aided heavily by Shadow Visions, so who knows if they'll do anything about it.
Stormwind Knight + Radiant Elemental + Power Word: Shield + Power Word: Shield + Divine Spirit + Divine Spirit + Inner Fire!
With the twilight acolyte OTK priests's win condition is "my opponent has a minion with some amount of health and I have 4 cards which can be shadow visioned for"