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[Artifact] Call to Arms set released. Give mid or feed!

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    BeefersBeefers Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Sweet, thanks for the info. Red/blue tempo a thing? Been a tempo player in card games whenever given the chance.

    Edit: I also find it funny that no one knows what to compare the model too. I see it compared to paper magic, mtgo, and mtga, all with pretty different economies.

    Beefers on
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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    I spent like a buck and a half making that gr/b pauper deck last night and won a game with it. I'm scared to spend my event tickets yet. Drafting seems fun but keeper draft is expensive, anyone have any suggestions for draft resources?

    Gotta find some good competitive decks to work towards as well, but there are a smattering of pricey cards at the moment. Axe is over twenty last I checked.

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    DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I think everything would be fine if they just had a progression system with some sort of rewards that feels satisfying. Cosmetics and stuff would be fine

    What is this I don't even.
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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I think everything would be fine if they just had a progression system with some sort of rewards that feels satisfying. Cosmetics and stuff would be fine

    I'd dig cosmetics and small card drops. It's not going to trash the economy to give players a card a day. Especially for expert gauntlets for 1/2 wins.

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I think this is the worst P2 I've ever seen.
    rEAaaAx.jpg

    E: But I guess its totally balanced out by this:
    DCdMQYM.jpg

    When I hit the 'Accept Invite' button it gives me 'This tournament is not valid.'

    Yilias on
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    General_ArmchairGeneral_Armchair Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I think everything would be fine if they just had a progression system with some sort of rewards that feels satisfying. Cosmetics and stuff would be fine

    I personally don't like the imps that move about the card table. I'd be very interested if they offered alternative characters.

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    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    just won my first casual phantom 5-0
    deck code: https://www.playartifact.com/d/ADCJbsAIH0DJLwBQI+4XQGBrN0BhgIIQg8IJgEEDQMHDQUgAwVLIAExAUc_
    -I don't think it's a good deck, I wanted the beefy minions from red, but not sure I needed that splash. Not like it brought me a time of triumph or anything. Hard of course for anyone to comment without seeing my other options...
    -another apotheosis blade! good item, apparently
    -people are... not as good at this game as I expected them to be. I am awful at HS draft but I can hold my own in this (with the help of the draw 2 hyped draft tier list).
    -its good that you can experience a ton of game content for free with this mode

    generally:
    -I think the game definitely needs some kind of progression system with cosmetics and an MMR ladder and all of that. Winning phantom draft 5-0 and getting nothing feels bad.
    -I am very reluctant to dive into paid constructed or paid drafts, and I think that will probably hold the game back generally. I am not sure I like the game enough to spend more than the initial $20. but also not sure I am the target audience here
    -I am a casual HS player at best, a friend got me into it and I spent some money but the game never really clicked for me. I like it, but I don't love it. I never got good and I jump back in and play a few games every couple months or so. I played Gwent for a bit and spent some money there (RIP) and I played MTG as a kid with real physical cards but I don't play a ton of CCGs. They don't have that addicting quality for me where I *have* to play another game.
    -IRL friends are not into Artifact, though they are into DotA. HS friends don't seem to want to switch. Maybe not a ton of crossover there?

    valiance on
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    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Have they said whether they'll tweak cards?

    I know Hex made a big deal about not tweaking. If they had to ban they had to ban, but they didn't otherwise modify cards that were on the market.

    They've said they're going to try to treat it like a physical card game. They will ban if they have to, but they don't plan on balancing cards after release.

    Their preferred method of balancing will probably be through rotations and introducing tech cards in the next sets.

    They probably should have done a much better job balancing before release then! Pretty easy to look at the list of trash tier heroes and buff them a bit, and nerf a few of the top tier ridiculous ones. If balance matters. I suppose there's an argument that we need some variance in card quality for drafting to make sense and for pack fillers to exist?

    This seems so, so backwards to me, this isn't a physical card game! One of the advantages is that you can patch and balance. But I suppose it's an inevitable consequence of the approach they're taking to monetization.

    valiance on
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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    On the timer discussion, we actually had two tournament games decided by timeout in WePlay yesterday and today:
    https://clips.twitch.tv/DifferentIronicSpiderDoubleRainbow
    https://clips.twitch.tv/CorrectSuperSheepEagleEye

    Tournament timer is shorter than matchmaking timer, I've personally never run out on ladder and usually finish with like 7+ minutes, but it could probably be improved in some ways.

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    EpimerEpimer Registered User regular
    5-0'd my casual draft tonight.

    I don't mind that there's no rewards. My reward is crushing the Drow Rangers, seeing them driven before me, and hearing the lamentations of their Tinkers.

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    TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    I really don't have an issue w/the monteization. Yea if you wanna play highly competitive constructed stuff it's going to cost money, but in any other game it's gonna cost a ton of money or a ton of time to grind. Here, the cost of competing for packs via drafting is $1. Seems fair to me.

    I just can't get up in arms about this, but I played Magic for a while, and this looks cheaper to me.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Tcheldor wrote: »
    I really don't have an issue w/the monteization. Yea if you wanna play highly competitive constructed stuff it's going to cost money, but in any other game it's gonna cost a ton of money or a ton of time to grind. Here, the cost of competing for packs via drafting is $1. Seems fair to me.

    I just can't get up in arms about this, but I played Magic for a while, and this looks cheaper to me.

    Being better than Magic really isn't saying much. It's the gold standard of bad monetization for consumers.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    zqqx2b8dpk11.jpg


    Kanna intensifies.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Welp, that was fun. Just threw away a dollar doing expert constructed. Nothing like going up against someone with 3 blink daggers, Drow Ranger, and Axe. Fucking pay to win bullshit.

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    SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    I think this is the worst P2 I've ever seen.
    rEAaaAx.jpg

    E: But I guess its totally balanced out by this:
    DCdMQYM.jpg

    When I hit the 'Accept Invite' button it gives me 'This tournament is not valid.'

    Try this one https://www.playartifact.com/tournament/?invitekey=14864716847738005667

    I might have accidentally clicked the "single use" button on that link, this one should be infinite use.

    Steam: Spawnbroker
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    TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    Welp, that was fun. Just threw away a dollar doing expert constructed. Nothing like going up against someone with 3 blink daggers, Drow Ranger, and Axe. Fucking pay to win bullshit.

    Until you have a string deck, draft is the competitive format to use. Casual constructed until then. Of course expert constructed will have op decks. Where else would they go?

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Having watched most of the WePlay tournament I feel like constructed Artifact is actually kind of... bad.

    WePlay stats

    I know part of it factors from it being the first set so options are more limited than usual but it seems like there's only about 3-4 decks total; RG aggro, RB tempo, UG Kanna combo (although a single person each is playing mono U and UR) and the lists have very little variance due to stark differences in card quality. It just seems like each color has so many auto-include heroes and cards that you don't build a deck as much as just choose colors.

    I'm loving draft though, which is kind of bizarre to me because I hate HS Arena and am ambivalent to MtG drafts. I find myself hoping the scene focuses on draft formats as much as constructed.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Tcheldor wrote: »
    Welp, that was fun. Just threw away a dollar doing expert constructed. Nothing like going up against someone with 3 blink daggers, Drow Ranger, and Axe. Fucking pay to win bullshit.

    Until you have a string deck, draft is the competitive format to use. Casual constructed until then. Of course expert constructed will have op decks. Where else would they go?

    I guess I got overconfident with my deck because I won 5 in a row casually. Of course I should've known that a cheap deck would never be able to compete against an expensive deck, you're right. Just frustrating.

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    TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    Having watched most of the WePlay tournament I feel like constructed Artifact is actually kind of... bad.

    WePlay stats

    I know part of it factors from it being the first set so options are more limited than usual but it seems like there's only about 3-4 decks total; RG aggro, RB tempo, UG Kanna combo (although a single person each is playing mono U and UR) and the lists have very little variance due to stark differences in card quality. It just seems like each color has so many auto-include heroes and cards that you don't build a deck as much as just choose colors.

    I'm loving draft though, which is kind of bizarre to me because I hate HS Arena and am ambivalent to MtG drafts. I find myself hoping the scene focuses on draft formats as much as constructed.

    The set's also not really that big. I expect as more and more sets are added and more different key words, and such are added, we'll end up wit more variety.

    I do think a limited number of "meta" decks will always emerge, because that's' what happens when you give thousands of people a limited set and the ability to math out the best options.

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    GhlinnGhlinn Registered User regular
    2 Mazzis + Axe in draft is disgusting. Forced a mana turn 6 concede after he over committed against my Axe in the right lane and I just town portaled him away and dropped 3 steel reinforcements in it.
    QHNOwbM.jpg

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    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    As far as monetization goes. I am basically out $134 and have *every* card in the set and enough cards to recycle for another 50 tickets.

    I've also been playing the market more than the game though.

    At the moment if you bought every card directly from the market at the lowest listed price it costs around $280-300
    [ 12-02 01:40 ]
    Average Card         common - 0.049      uncommon - 0.142    rare - 1.665
    Average Hero         common - 0.068      uncommon - 0.180    rare - 5.362
    Average Item         common - 0.044      uncommon - 0.293    rare - 0.833
    Average Other        common - 0.043      uncommon - 0.092    rare - 1.019
    TOTAL - $294.21      PACK EV - $2.35
    

    Pack EV should be between $2 and ~$2.30 depending if you're planning on selling the cards or keeping them because of the Valve tax so prices are a bit on the high end right now. You can also probably buy your collection for a bit cheaper (I'd estimate about 10-15% less) if you use buy orders instead of directly buying listed cards.

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    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Tcheldor wrote: »
    Yilias wrote: »
    Having watched most of the WePlay tournament I feel like constructed Artifact is actually kind of... bad.

    WePlay stats

    I know part of it factors from it being the first set so options are more limited than usual but it seems like there's only about 3-4 decks total; RG aggro, RB tempo, UG Kanna combo (although a single person each is playing mono U and UR) and the lists have very little variance due to stark differences in card quality. It just seems like each color has so many auto-include heroes and cards that you don't build a deck as much as just choose colors.

    I'm loving draft though, which is kind of bizarre to me because I hate HS Arena and am ambivalent to MtG drafts. I find myself hoping the scene focuses on draft formats as much as constructed.

    The set's also not really that big. I expect as more and more sets are added and more different key words, and such are added, we'll end up wit more variety.

    I do think a limited number of "meta" decks will always emerge, because that's' what happens when you give thousands of people a limited set and the ability to math out the best options.

    It's interesting that despite the extreme popularity of Red-Black, it actually is doing pretty badly. So it's definitely something you can anti-meta.

    Someone posted this in a Weplay thread
    UG: 4-1
    RG: 4-2
    RB: 4-7
    RU: 0-1
    U: 0-1

    I think one of the simplest ways they can make things interesting is to actually follow Hearthstone's tournament format. Make 3 decks, with no overlapping hero between the decks. Opponent bans one deck and you have to win with the other two decks. It prevents people from putting all their power heroes into a single deck because it'll just get straight up banned, and will make some of the lesser used heroes show up for some variety, depending on how they choose to balance the 3 decks. Hearthstone does 4 ban 1 but because of Artifact's game length I think 3 ban 1 works better.

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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Metas are inevitable, I'm just a little surprised that with 21 color combos only 3 are playable.

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    DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I think that the tourneys dropping you at 2 losses rather then the more standard 3 is a heavy penalty. Three losses leaves a lot more room for some bottom performers to still eek out a win. No rewards at all for one or two wins also leaves a sting. The overall reward structure just doesn't feel great.

    What is this I don't even.
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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I think that the tourneys dropping you at 2 losses rather then the more standard 3 is a heavy penalty. Three losses leaves a lot more room for some bottom performers to still eek out a win. No rewards at all for one or two wins also leaves a sting. The overall reward structure just doesn't feel great.

    Also means you have to do better than .500 to break even.

    Stabbity Style on
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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Artifact/comments/a221r3/math_in_artifact_4_fixing_the_reward_structure_of/

    69% of runs don't earn back their ticket. I'd be happier if it was easier to earn tickets and harder to get packs from draft.

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Yeah, I think I'm probably too frustrated with the monotization model to really wanna play anymore. Guess I'm out like $25. Oh well. Maybe they'll make it good someday.

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    GhlinnGhlinn Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Isn't that pretty standard with draft modes? Also it looks like further down in the comments while 69% of runs don't earn a ticket back you only need a 35% win rate to go infinite? https://www.reddit.com/r/Artifact/comments/a221r3/math_in_artifact_4_fixing_the_reward_structure_of/eavip7p/ The math is beyond me really.

    Edit - Keep in mind that a ton of people are dumping commons they don't want into the market place for 3 cents so as long as you have a bit of patience event tickets are really only 60 cents each not $1, I put up about 100 buy orders last night and they all filled today by the time I got on.

    Ghlinn on
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    CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    The game costs $20 to buy, and you get ten card packs and a number of predetermined starter cards. If you agree that the value of a pack of cards in $1.99, then you've paid $0.01 for the game. Each pack of cards has an average value of the combined averaged value of every card, adjusted by rarity. At that point you'd have to remember that you're not trading commodities, and you're getting (hopefully) value from simply owning the cards.

    I've just picked the game up, and my collection of cards is worth a solid $15.67 (pulled a Time of Triumph @ $7.40), not including $0.01 cards (of which I have around $1.50 of). So I've gotten $15-18 out of my $20 investment. There's also the five event tickets priced at $4.95, but are not able to be sold.

    Not being able to grind for cards like Hearthstone is important, as botters would constantly devalue cards on the marketplace. Being able to 'buy' cards to make a 'pay to win' deck is not unique to Artifact, and Artifact's business model makes the system more fair by allowing to purchase cards directly instead of relying on random packs.

    Seems good to me? I put $200 into Hearthstone and I simply felt like I didn't get the value out of my cards in between rotations. In Artifact I'll at least be able to sell my cards, even if I'm only making nickels on the dollar.

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    SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    I drafted this in phantom expert draft and won my first game, is it decent or did I just get lucky? The blue stuff seems mediocre for sure.

    https://www.playartifact.com/d/ADCJTAAvrgCCQ0HUT26AgEHAQYEEQYJAQkfDQMSAgEBBRZSAVRmASkBAhQcSAI_

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    The game costs $20 to buy, and you get ten card packs and a number of predetermined starter cards. If you agree that the value of a pack of cards in $1.99, then you've paid $0.01 for the game. Each pack of cards has an average value of the combined averaged value of every card, adjusted by rarity. At that point you'd have to remember that you're not trading commodities, and you're getting (hopefully) value from simply owning the cards.

    I've just picked the game up, and my collection of cards is worth a solid $15.67 (pulled a Time of Triumph @ $7.40), not including $0.01 cards (of which I have around $1.50 of). So I've gotten $15-18 out of my $20 investment. There's also the five event tickets priced at $4.95, but are not able to be sold.

    Not being able to grind for cards like Hearthstone is important, as botters would constantly devalue cards on the marketplace. Being able to 'buy' cards to make a 'pay to win' deck is not unique to Artifact, and Artifact's business model makes the system more fair by allowing to purchase cards directly instead of relying on random packs.

    Seems good to me? I put $200 into Hearthstone and I simply felt like I didn't get the value out of my cards in between rotations. In Artifact I'll at least be able to sell my cards, even if I'm only making nickels on the dollar.

    I mean, I guess that's nice for you? I wanted a video game, not an investment.

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    CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    The game costs $20 to buy, and you get ten card packs and a number of predetermined starter cards. If you agree that the value of a pack of cards in $1.99, then you've paid $0.01 for the game. Each pack of cards has an average value of the combined averaged value of every card, adjusted by rarity. At that point you'd have to remember that you're not trading commodities, and you're getting (hopefully) value from simply owning the cards.

    I've just picked the game up, and my collection of cards is worth a solid $15.67 (pulled a Time of Triumph @ $7.40), not including $0.01 cards (of which I have around $1.50 of). So I've gotten $15-18 out of my $20 investment. There's also the five event tickets priced at $4.95, but are not able to be sold.

    Not being able to grind for cards like Hearthstone is important, as botters would constantly devalue cards on the marketplace. Being able to 'buy' cards to make a 'pay to win' deck is not unique to Artifact, and Artifact's business model makes the system more fair by allowing to purchase cards directly instead of relying on random packs.

    Seems good to me? I put $200 into Hearthstone and I simply felt like I didn't get the value out of my cards in between rotations. In Artifact I'll at least be able to sell my cards, even if I'm only making nickels on the dollar.

    I mean, I guess that's nice for you? I wanted a video game, not an investment.

    In what conceivable way is this not a video game?

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    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    Broke out the cost of getting a full collection of the different rarities.
    Commons - $9.27      Uncommons - $28.95      Rare - $254.46
    

    Basically for less than the cost of a regular video game you get everything but full constructed formats.

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    CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Dracil wrote: »
    Broke out the cost of getting a full collection of the different rarities.
    Commons - $9.27      Uncommons - $28.95      Rare - $254.46
    

    Basically for less than the cost of a regular video game you get everything but full constructed formats.

    That's also assuming you want a full playset of each card, of each color. You can shave $100 off just by ignoring the six most expensive cards.

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    DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Dracil wrote: »
    Broke out the cost of getting a full collection of the different rarities.
    Commons - $9.27      Uncommons - $28.95      Rare - $254.46
    

    Basically for less than the cost of a regular video game you get everything but full constructed formats.

    That's also assuming you want a full playset of each card, of each color. You can shave $100 off just by ignoring the six most expensive cards.

    Yes, but then you'll lose. So far the meta seems pretty restricted to the top bombs with no alternate jank.

    What is this I don't even.
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    CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    Dracil wrote: »
    Broke out the cost of getting a full collection of the different rarities.
    Commons - $9.27      Uncommons - $28.95      Rare - $254.46
    

    Basically for less than the cost of a regular video game you get everything but full constructed formats.

    That's also assuming you want a full playset of each card, of each color. You can shave $100 off just by ignoring the six most expensive cards.

    Yes, but then you'll lose. So far the meta seems pretty restricted to the top bombs with no alternate jank.

    I haven't put a whole lot of time in the game, but somehow I doubt a Drow/Axe/Kanna deck with three copies of Annihilation, Time of Triumph, and Horn of the Alpha is the only viable deck.

    Valuable cards are good, and vice versa, but it's not like you have to drop $300 in order to be 'competitive'.

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    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Definitely don't need to. There's actually a good black deck too I saw that doesn't have any of that. Black as a color tends to be cheaper right since a lot of their better cards are common/uncommon.

    https://www.playartifact.com/d/ADCJS0MJ7kCQpbDBcgEuF1t3QGHpQGkAToBElNDirEBhpptAUtvem1pYyBCbGFjaw__

    (Ok I guess it does use Horn of the Alpha but the whole deck is still like $20?)

    Also, apparently there's a Share a Deck feature when playing with friends that allows your friends to play with your decks even if they don't own the cards. Neat feature not in any other game and a good way to figure out if you'll enjoy them enough to get the cards.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I mean, all the pricing chatter and discussing whether it's better than hearthstone is kinda moot.

    Because if Valve actually gave a shit about the game being competitive it would be on an LCG model. But they put it on this model because, going off their own figures, they've already made at minimum $120,000 dollars in addition to whatever pack openings and copies of the game have sold.

    Also for what it's worth: Every time someone complains that having more options to earn packs would undermine the card economy: Good. The absolute worst bit of this game is having half the posts here and on reddit having to be indistinguishable from libertarians chatting up bitcoin.

    Albino Bunny on
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    DracilDracil Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Would you be fine with an LCG model that costs you $15/month + yearly expansions? And if you join in late or leave and come back you have to pay for all the months you missed? Because that's what actual LCGs like Netrunner basically cost to keep up.

    I'd also say the economic model chatter is probably closer to stock markets than bitcoin. Unlike cryptocoins whose values are basically based on what the community decides that day by throwing a dart at a board, the costs will naturally tend towards effectively the cost of a pack.

    Adding additional ways to earn cards or packs are not going to be without trade-offs, and that usually comes in the form of time, hence the endless hamster wheels other games tend to use. Like the flip side of this whole debate is do you prefer companies that don't value your time by making your grind your "free" packs in the form of pennies per hour by playing decks and cards you don't actually want to play? At the end of the day the company will still seek to make the same amount of money with this different model, which just means shifting an even greater burden of the monetary cost on the whales while also punishing everyone else by diluting their fun into longer stretches of time.

    Maybe they'll end up pivoting and doing the whole cosmetics model, which is certainly something that works in these games. But looking at the stuff with CSGo/Dota cosmetics markets also doesn't exactly give me a good feeling either.

    There's simply no one model that's going to satisfy everyone. The only obvious model that won't ever fly though is the one that doesn't make the company money because that's a surefire way to get the game canned.

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    Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I mean, I played Netrunner for ages so yes. Plus digital games are capable of having sales that bundle older content.

    Which is leaving aside that the ‘horror’ of a £9 subscription is still easily a quarter of the price of a current full set and still less than what buying a deck costs currently.

    Edit: also for the infinite time ‘it’s better than hearthstones already exploitative model’ isn’t actually convincing.

    Albino Bunny on
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