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Fighting games - NCR March 30!

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    THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY papa! Registered User regular
    I always root for Tokido but watching Infiltration play Menat is just something else, man. It is so artful.

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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    i thought that was a very unhype top 8

    competitively, the season 2 top tiers were really nuts... but i thought they were still fun to watch

    i strongly dislike the cammy/rashid meta, and if guile/menat are our relief from that... eww

    there's a lot of interesting characters/vts in this game right now.. and very little of it was on display from top 64 onward

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    THESPOOKYTHESPOOKY papa! Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Jasconius wrote: »
    i thought that was a very unhype top 8

    competitively, the season 2 top tiers were really nuts... but i thought they were still fun to watch

    i strongly dislike the cammy/rashid meta, and if guile/menat are our relief from that... eww

    there's a lot of interesting characters/vts in this game right now.. and very little of it was on display from top 64 onward

    I mean, there were 8 different characters in top 8. That alone is pretty amazing. They were just all straight from the top of the tier list for SFV.

    Now, lemme tell you about Cell....

    THESPOOKY on
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    I Win SwordfightsI Win Swordfights all the traits of greatness starlight at my feetRegistered User regular
    people who find tech in games are just... somethin' else man

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUtw035--XM

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    The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    My new goal is to do that x beam into teen gohan level 5

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Jasconius wrote: »
    i thought that was a very unhype top 8

    competitively, the season 2 top tiers were really nuts... but i thought they were still fun to watch

    i strongly dislike the cammy/rashid meta, and if guile/menat are our relief from that... eww

    there's a lot of interesting characters/vts in this game right now.. and very little of it was on display from top 64 onward

    Cammy doesn't deserve to be next to Rashid there. AE atm is all about guile command of neutral, rashid oppressive/brainless pressure, and to a slightly lesser extent Abigail one-chance damage.

    Plus, I strongly disagree. Sfv has been about unga for so long, having a zoning/spacing control character actually be strong for the first time since s1 is nice. On top of that, I think menat is one of the most interesting characters and VTs in the game so I don't get that complaint. You still have your ibukis, kolins, uriens etc. You just have a better balance between the two now, and don't forget that infiltration is a fucking god, and menat players in general have to PUT IN WORK.

    I like seeing defensive play so now that SFV has some defensive play shown at the top level again is real nice. Especially since it's menat, both because I think she's cool and because it shows those people complaining about "blah blah mindless pressure no defensive options no depth no hard execution no variety blah blah" are wrong. I'm not saying there isn't a kernel of truth in there, but Infil's menat is different from Sako's is different from go1's. Menat has some of the worst defensive options in the game. Infil's menat especially is very low on pressure and very high on footsie control. Menat in general took a while to be optimized and still has stuff to be found.

    Basically, I have problems with the game but this top 8/16/32 didn't show them, especially character-wise. Rashid was shut down (though it's telling that Infil counterpicks that matchup, even though juri v Rashid is not even necessarily very juri favored), guile did decently but there isn't an explosion of guile players, Abigail did good but not as good as people would have expected, with either Abigail specialists or grappler specialists switching over. Cammy did good and she's the most simple/basic footsie character in this game so I take that as a generally good sign, same with Chun.

    When people think sfv problems, a lot of it is fishing in neutral, too-strong momentum off of stray hits, and a lack of defensive options. Top 8 showcased some of that, but in general at the highest level, those are way less relevant. Especially in the grand finals, basically none of those things applied. If Capcom would tone down abigail, Rashid, guile a tiny bit, i think the game would be in a decent place though meterless fully invincible DPs is a hill I will die on. Yeah, the lower tier characters are rough, but honestly some of them need bigger changes than a mid-season patch should make imo, and also it's not like there isn't character variety. There's a pretty clear line between good vs bad chars in the game but it's not like it's insurmountable (juri vs Rashid) and also like half the cast is in the right side of the line so I am ok with this. Plus, there aren't really clearly delineated tiers in the good group of chars so it's not like it's just the top tier that's winning, unless you include every character in that grouping. Like, no one would put menat as top tier, or even akuma. But then, I completely dgaf about character loyalty so I can see why some people would be more annoyed that their favorite character is bad vs just switching like I do.

    EDIT: in fact on further thought, I'm pretty sure that significantly more than half the cast is above the good vs bad character list, so it's not so much that there are standout characters (though there are, Abigail+Rashid+Guile is top 3 without question) as it is that there are just characters that are bad.

    Euphemon on
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    SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    I was getting distracted by how much I liked the first BGM in the combo video. Looked it up, apparently it's a Touhou cover.

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    More people should be like Infiltration and have a single character that they only use for one matchup that will always happen.

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I do think a 3.5 patch would be appreciated, nothing too drastic just minor tweaks.

    But I think things are mostly fine for now.

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    With the increase in general professionalism and overall level of play, I really expected more people to have pocket characters or counterpicks. Instead, I feel like the reverse has happened.

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    templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Euphemon wrote: »
    With the increase in general professionalism and overall level of play, I really expected more people to have pocket characters or counterpicks. Instead, I feel like the reverse has happened.

    I feel like bad matchups can be stifling, but there's nothing quite so stifling as Bison vs Guile in SF4. Players get a bit more leeway to just pummel through it, especially with top tiers

    Twitch.tv/FiercePunchStudios | PSN | Steam | Discord | SFV CFN: templewulf
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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    Yeah matchups and tiers are really compressed in this game, I'm struggling to think of a true 7-3 even. But you just have to look at infil's juri v Rashid and how he's just bulldozered Rashids across multiple tournaments to see the success of the strategy. Especially for grapplers I would have expected more people to go with a pocket to cover bad matchups.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Honestly though the only top tier I think is boring is Rashid.

    Like Menat and Guile I very much like their aggressive zoning style.

    Abigail is bullshit and I think he needs to be less bullshit but his salt factor is hilarious.

    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    Rashid though is just kind of flowchart-y. I'mma press a bunch of really good midrange buttons and hope you get hit.

    Then you have a lot of other characters who are still pretty good.

    Dragkonias on
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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Honestly though the only top tier I think is boring is Rashid.

    Like Menat and Guile I very much like their aggressive zoning style.

    Abigail is bullshit and I think he needs to be less bullshit but his salt factor is hilarious.

    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    Rashid though is just kind of flowchart-y. I'mma press a bunch of really good midrange buttons and hope you get hit.

    Then you have a lot of other characters who are still pretty good.

    Honestly having been playing Rashid, his midrange game actually isn't that good. His normals are really stubby unless you commit to a heavy so he has a pretty defined spacing where his opponents can hit mediums but he can't. Obviously you can play around that and, you know, Play Footsies, but his tools aren't as powerful as they seem.

    The problem with Rashid is that he does too much corner push, especially on block, and that his offense, again on block, is so oppressive and so brain-dead. Like if his reward for forcing you into the corner was strong pressure and damage, ok sure. But he does it so easily and then he just does normal xx ex shot/vt2 mk shot for a frame trap into successions of 50/50s and good damage on any stray hit, plus he can then control spacing to mitigate his medium deadzone and use HP spinner to anti-air any jumps. I think his cornerpush is the biggest problem, especially because his offense is much less scary midscreen, but he definitely can't have both, it's absurd. I don't think both need to be nerfed, but one of those two problems does.

    Having said that, I agree with you on all points. Rashid is easily the most boring top tier, I'm pretty ok with everyone else.

    Euphemon on
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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    bruhhhhhhhh. that's preposterous. in what sense is her game honest.. because she doesn't have a command grab?

    she jumps for free, puts you in the corner in one touch, and engages the most devilish corner game available where she can offer more looks to keep you on yours toes than anybody


    there were at least 8 cammys/rashids in top 32. i'm happy they got controlled, and it's nice that in SFV most of the time the better player is winning now, but these characters are boring to watch, and i would rather have anyone else as the fotm tournament picks. im p. happy with abigail rn because when he gets counterpicked, the matches are hype as fuck. its very tense, you dont know what's going to happen. every single round of Du vs. Coolkid was awesome

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    bruhhhhhhhh. that's preposterous. in what sense is her game honest.. because she doesn't have a command grab?

    she jumps for free, puts you in the corner in one touch, and engages the most devilish corner game available where she can offer more looks to keep you on yours toes than anybody


    there were at least 8 cammys/rashids in top 32. i'm happy they got controlled, and it's nice that in SFV most of the time the better player is winning now, but these characters are boring to watch, and i would rather have anyone else as the fotm tournament picks. im p. happy with abigail rn because when he gets counterpicked, the matches are hype as fuck. its very tense, you dont know what's going to happen. every single round of Du vs. Coolkid was awesome

    Cammy is 100% the most honest high tier character in SFV and has been since s1.

    I'm not going to argue personal opinion re: what matches are exciting, but honestly I thought Tokido vs Infil was a much better match to watch than Du vs Coolkid.

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    Grape ApeGrape Ape Registered User regular
    Abigail would be a lot better if he had a helmet, and his armored charge was a charge motion, and he didn't have an air dash but could icpm across the screen

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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    Grape Ape wrote: »
    Abigail would be a lot better if he had a helmet, and his armored charge was a charge motion, and he didn't have an air dash but could icpm across the screen
    i'd play that

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    DaebunzDaebunz Registered User regular
    i hope they never tone down Huge Quest™

    let me have this one

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    bruhhhhhhhh. that's preposterous. in what sense is her game honest.. because she doesn't have a command grab?

    she jumps for free, puts you in the corner in one touch, and engages the most devilish corner game available where she can offer more looks to keep you on yours toes than anybody


    there were at least 8 cammys/rashids in top 32. i'm happy they got controlled, and it's nice that in SFV most of the time the better player is winning now, but these characters are boring to watch, and i would rather have anyone else as the fotm tournament picks. im p. happy with abigail rn because when he gets counterpicked, the matches are hype as fuck. its very tense, you dont know what's going to happen. every single round of Du vs. Coolkid was awesome

    She doesn't really have much in the way of Yolo. Even her divekick which is her most Yolo attack is very punishable if not spaced right.

    Her V-Triggers are good but not aren't completely momentum shifting like some of the others.

    Her CCs are good but situational and you can't just throw them out like some characters.

    Her corner pressure is insane but she has to earn it by walking you down.

    Her best long range whiff punish is very risky if miscalculated.

    Like she has every tool needed to win but they still need to be used effectively.

    Dragkonias on
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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Cammy is honestly boring.

    Edit: and by that, I mean that the only difference i see between top Cammy players is Kazunoko will always ex cannon spike. Her optimal playstyle is so homogeneous it feels like watching the same match on loop no matter who is playing.

    Radius on
    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
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    l_gl_g Registered User regular
    Top 8 being 8 players with 8 different characters was great.

    I think the other "honest" high tier character has been Karin, but I like Karin a lot more than Cammy because Karin is even more reliant on footsies and poking than Cammy is. I tend to agree with the complaint that Cammy play is very homogeneous.

    I think gameplay-wise Menat is a fantastic character, even if in many ways she's just a better Dhalsim, complete with situational divekicks, a less-good slide, but normals that literally can't trade. She's all about fine space control, has a zillion tricks based on space control, but also has some amount of new-school griminess with VT1. Menat allows for lots of the player's own idiosyncrasies to show through. However, if people find her a bit boring to watch... I can sympathize. Long rounds of poking and tenuous attempts to get in can definitely seem kind of unexciting.

    Still better than SF4 Rose, though. Ugh. Now that was a slog.

    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
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    KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator Mod Emeritus
    Is noctis out

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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    edited March 2018
    Bad joke, not yet.

    Radius on
    Everyday we stray further from God's light
    Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
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    KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator Mod Emeritus
    Aha, i was seeing him pop up on streams, looks like he's just out in japan right now.

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    I Win SwordfightsI Win Swordfights all the traits of greatness starlight at my feetRegistered User regular
    And if you timer scam on xbox

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    edited March 2018
    l_g wrote: »
    Top 8 being 8 players with 8 different characters was great.

    I think the other "honest" high tier character has been Karin, but I like Karin a lot more than Cammy because Karin is even more reliant on footsies and poking than Cammy is. I tend to agree with the complaint that Cammy play is very homogeneous.

    I think gameplay-wise Menat is a fantastic character, even if in many ways she's just a better Dhalsim, complete with situational divekicks, a less-good slide, but normals that literally can't trade. She's all about fine space control, has a zillion tricks based on space control, but also has some amount of new-school griminess with VT1. Menat allows for lots of the player's own idiosyncrasies to show through. However, if people find her a bit boring to watch... I can sympathize. Long rounds of poking and tenuous attempts to get in can definitely seem kind of unexciting.

    Still better than SF4 Rose, though. Ugh. Now that was a slog.
    Karin has way more damage and a stronger combo into CA, a safe on block CC she can fish with, a good vskill in neutral that you can change the timing/spacing of, a sweep that can't be punished by most characters if spaced correctly, better buttons in general, some grime with her VT that can be a mixup/safe on block/frametrap so she can yolo cancel in ways that cammy can't, and she has actual mixups sometimes with left/right/throw (and sometimes overhead) that Cammy basically never has. There's a reason why Karin v Cammy was Karin favored last season, though obviously she got nerfed. Which isn't to say Cammy is a bad character, in fact she's a top tier character, but just comparing the two, Cammy is way more honest than Karin, especially in the footsie game.
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Cammy is top tier in like the most honest way possible.

    bruhhhhhhhh. that's preposterous. in what sense is her game honest.. because she doesn't have a command grab?

    she jumps for free, puts you in the corner in one touch, and engages the most devilish corner game available where she can offer more looks to keep you on yours toes than anybody


    there were at least 8 cammys/rashids in top 32. i'm happy they got controlled, and it's nice that in SFV most of the time the better player is winning now, but these characters are boring to watch, and i would rather have anyone else as the fotm tournament picks. im p. happy with abigail rn because when he gets counterpicked, the matches are hype as fuck. its very tense, you dont know what's going to happen. every single round of Du vs. Coolkid was awesome

    She doesn't really have much in the way of Yolo. Even her divekick which is her most Yolo attack is very punishable if not spaced right.

    Her V-Triggers are good but not aren't completely momentum shifting like some of the others.

    Her CCs are good but situational and you can't just throw them out like some characters.

    Her corner pressure is insane but she has to earn it by walking you down.

    Her best long range whiff punish is very risky if miscalculated.

    Like she has every tool needed to win but they still need to be used effectively.
    Yeah, Cammy is all about the microspacing in footsies with generally good but one-purpose options with appropriate risk/reward. Her divekick needs to be spaced very well or it's minus/punishable. She fucking dies if she misconfirms her spiral arrow. She can either use st.hp whiffpunish which is good but susceptible to being whiffpunished itself, or st.mp for a safer but low-range option. She's really reliant on a baitable one-hit hitconfirm on her cr.mk xx arrow which also has no late cancelable frames like, for ex chun cr.mk, so the Cammy player really needs to be on point/it's actually humanly impossible and what you're actually doing is hitconfirming before the hit itself which is why it's baitable. Her only CCs are sweep, which is a short range compared to most of the cast, and her st.hk which whiffs on crouching so she can't just CC fish like characters with "real" st.hk CCs can. Her vtrigger "gives" her 2 hits at most and is probably the weakest of all the top tier's vtriggers, and her VT2 literally doesn't exist. Her cr.hp is great and serves as her heavy fishing button but she needs to VT it for it to actually lead to damage, so it's normally just a check on the other player unlike other characters that can actually get damage off their heavies on CC/canceled on hit. Same with her st.mk which is a great low risk low reward button. She has great corner pressure but I mean that's Every Top Tier Character. Same with her tick throw/frametrap game, but she doesn't have an overhead to compensate for that.

    Basically, playing Cammy is all about the right tool at the right time. There's a reason why Cammy has been top tier for ages but has rarely actually won tournaments despite lots of top pros using her. She has every tool in neutral, including an INSANE walkspeed that somehow no one has mentioned yet which says a lot, and all of them are good but none of them are degenerate/dishonest. She has a really simple gameplan that every player you play against will already know how to deal with (in theory). She has good tools to earn her hit, but she still has to earn them. When we talk about "honesty" in fighting games, that's literally exactly what we're talking about.



    People are totally right about Cammy being homogeneous because she's so simple in gameplan and so hard in execution of the gameplan, but I'm ok with this because at least it's a gameplan about footsies, which is the core of SF and the most actually interactive part of the game anyway. Random fishing for CCs/VTC into massive combo and knockdown into 1-2 guessies before death is like "ok yeah sure" for me, one person was playing, the other person was basically just watching. So I can see why people would find the basic Cammy gameplan x infinity to be boring and I agree to an extent, but personally I'm fine with it.

    Also, no one's really talking about it here, but Infil's Menat dodging TOKIDO'S FUCKING AKUMA for that many rounds when Menat has basically 0 tools (including one of the shittiest v-reversals) to get out of pressure against FUCKING AKUMA, PLAYED BY FUCKING TOKIDO, was insane. All the tenseness of the Abigail vs whatever matchups, but with two players actually playing.

    PS: people are saying 8 characters in top 8 is good, which is true, but honestly SFV has like 7+ characters in top 8s pretty consistently now, for pretty much a year+. The top tier has been pretty varied and dynamic and the strongest chars on paper haven't necessarily been winning. Like I said pages earlier, character balance is not a problem with the game, it's other stuff.

    PPS: It's 9 characters in top 8, Infil also busted out his Juri as well as his Menat.

    Euphemon on
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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    Make Hooligan Throw Actually Good For Once

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    P10 wrote: »
    Make Hooligan Throw Actually Good For Once

    At least her hooligan divekick is decent, Thank You Capcom For Buffing Top Tiers.

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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    Euphemon wrote: »
    P10 wrote: »
    Make Hooligan Throw Actually Good For Once

    At least her hooligan divekick is decent, Thank You Capcom For Buffing Top Tiers.
    actually i thought about it and i don't like demon flip throw so Keep Hooligan Throw Bad
    air throws only cool when they involve breaking backs or are bad and shouldn't work

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    edited March 2018
    P10 wrote: »
    Euphemon wrote: »
    P10 wrote: »
    Make Hooligan Throw Actually Good For Once

    At least her hooligan divekick is decent, Thank You Capcom For Buffing Top Tiers.
    actually i thought about it and i don't like demon flip throw so Keep Hooligan Throw Bad
    air throws only cool when they involve breaking backs or are bad and shouldn't work

    BOY CAMMY HAS A GIFT FOR YOU. I swear the reason why literally no one uses it is because it's so embarrassingly shit.

    Also I just realized it's been so long since I've seen hooligan throw that I literally forgot the animation.

    Euphemon on
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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    i knew it had a dumb animation but i just assumed it was otherwise a normal air throw. does it have a horrible hitbox or something?

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    P10 wrote: »
    i knew it had a dumb animation but i just assumed it was otherwise a normal air throw. does it have a horrible hitbox or something?

    Nono, I just meant that animation. Well, also the hitbox isn't great and why would you bother with it when you get more off of an air to air plus a better mixup.

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    l_gl_g Registered User regular
    I really like watching the spacing/poking game of Infiltration's Menat. He's got a seemingly bottomless bag of tricks and always knows something about every given situation/spacing that the other guy doesn't seem to. But he's also got great reactions (which don't always pay off!), a zillion different punishes/setups with VT1 (though perhaps not as grimy as GO1's), and a great sense of when it's time to roll the dice.

    I think what I like more about Menat compared to Cammy is that Menat without VT1 is just all poking, but once Cammy scores that knockdown or gets close, it's the same thing you've seen all the time every time, and all of her options on success lead to more of the same. For me, I find playing Cammy versus watching someone play Cammy is weirdly dichotomous in that way, because the playing of Cammy can be engaging, but watching Cammy played well is surprisingly dull.

    On the other hand, while I find that playing against Abigail and losing to VT1 combo damage is rather frustrating, watching Abigail get fraudulent wins is hilarious.

    In conclusion make claw good, because wtf Capcom

    Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    you use air throws because air throws are inherently swag
    i knew you were going to jump and i did a thing that would only beat you jumping
    hard call outs only, no top tiers, final destination

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    P10 wrote: »
    you use air throws because air throws are inherently swag
    i knew you were going to jump and i did a thing that would only beat you jumping
    hard call outs only, no top tiers, final destination

    THEN IT SHOULD AT LEAST LOOK GOOD. There is nothing "swag" about Cammy's airthrow, it's so terrible lmao

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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    listen an overworked intern did their best on that animation pls don't denigrate their work like this

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    EuphemonEuphemon itsudemo sagashiteiruyo dokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered User regular
    edited March 2018
    P10 wrote: »
    listen an overworked intern did their best on that animation pls don't denigrate their work like this

    Are you sure a person "worked" on it?

    Euphemon on
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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    a human being spent whole minutes of their life

    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    This whole time I was thinking you were talking about this air throw.


    And I'm thinking, "What's wrong with that?" So I looked up "cammy air throw sfv"


    I'm actually not sure I've ever seen that move occur in-game. I think I would have remembered seeing something like that.

This discussion has been closed.