Due to a security update, you may have to reset your password. Don’t panic, nothing has gone wrong and your password is safe. If you don’t have access to that email, send Tube a message at [email protected] More info here: https://status.vanillaforums.com/incidents/2zdqxf3bt7mj
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

This is Larry the Cable Guy saying watch [Game Grumps] and CoNSumE PriLOsEc

16667697172

Posts

  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    Russian Bootleg Games video sure...sure was 40 minutes.

    FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu/Auldhaerz Swygkhansyn (both on Mateus), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
    Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
    Fuck Joe Manchin
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Russian Bootleg Games video sure...sure was 40 minutes.

    I'm about 8 minutes in... What the fuck is going on?

  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Russian Bootleg Games video sure...sure was 40 minutes.

    I'm about 8 minutes in... What the fuck is going on?

    Arin tried to make a video off a bunch of sketchy-ass foreign cartridges with about as little preparation as humanly possible.

    FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu/Auldhaerz Swygkhansyn (both on Mateus), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
    Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
    Fuck Joe Manchin
    HefflingMr RayZilla360
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Ilpala wrote: »
    Russian Bootleg Games video sure...sure was 40 minutes.

    I'm about 8 minutes in... What the fuck is going on?

    Arin tried to make a video off a bunch of sketchy-ass foreign cartridges with about as little preparation as humanly possible.

    Yeah I wonder if he used the actual bootleg hardware it would have worked.

  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited November 19
    Apparently the device he was using can't handle the way that those bootleg carts manage their data, so when it dumps it to memory it's not in a format it can read. The carts are probably fine he just shouldn't have been using a Retron.

    Aistan on
    steam_sig.png
    urahonkyIlpalaHefflingLocal H JayKoopahTroopahZilla360
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Never use a Retron, they suck

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited November 21
    So how much is COPPA gonna screw the Grumps?

    I'm thinking at least a bit. They're going to have to scramble to possibly avoid fines, but then again it is vague as shit so maybe it doesn't matter what you do and you'll be fined anyway.

    I've not seen PANIC(tm) like this on YouTube in. . . forever actually. There was Adpocalypse and Adpocalypse 2: Electric Boogaloo, but those were vague "sky is falling" scenarios. COPPA is real, terrifyingly vaguely worded and policed by the by an organization with a vested interest in finding culprits (the FTC).

    Axen on
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    So how much is COPPA gonna screw the Grumps?

    I'm thinking at least a bit. They're going to have to scramble to possibly avoid fines, but then again it is vague as shit so maybe it doesn't matter what you do and you'll be fined anyway.

    I've not seen PANIC(tm) like this on YouTube in. . . forever actually. There was Adpocalypse and Adpocalypse 2: Electric Boogaloo, but those were vague "sky is falling" scenarios. COPPA is real, terrifyingly vaguely worded and policed by the by an organization with a vested interest in finding culprits (the FTC).

    Here's what Arin has to say about it (click for whole thread)

    steam_sig.png
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I'm not really sure he's right about that. I mean, he's right about the law stuff, but it's not so cut and dry. I mean, sure bigger channels can directly contact YouTube to contest a video that's labeled wrongly by a broken algorithm and bots... But not every channel is Game Grumps sized. Big channels don't have a lot to fear, but smaller ones do. Especially channels that review toys, despite there being a lot of adults who collect toys.

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
    Zilla360Heffling
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited November 21
    The rub is that it doesn't matter if you think your content isn't for kids. What matters is if the FTC thinks it is for kids. You or YouTube do not determine this, only the FTC.

    The settlement Google made with the FTC brought some changes to the law. Most notably and terrifying is that YouTube is no longer responsible for violations by Content Creators. The Creators themselves are now responsible and will face the FTC's ire by themselves.

    edit- Here is a lawyer man talking lawyer stuff.




    edit 2- and here are the "guidelines" to determine if your videos are "kid content"
    • The subject matter of the online service (WTF does that mean?)
    • The video's visual content (WTF does that mean?)
    • Has animated characters or child activities (as precisely unhelpful as it is vague)
    • Incentives (wut?)
    • The music or audio in the video.
    • Age of the models in the video.
    • Presence of child celebrities or celebrities that appeal to children.
    • Language or other characteristics of the online service.
    • Whether ads before the video are targeted to children.

    Like, damn man.

    Axen on
    Zilla360Stormwatcher
  • darunia106darunia106 J-bob in games Death MountainRegistered User regular
    A better thread that tries to explain coppa including the unintended consequences:



    Essentially you only need to worry if a chunk, even a small chunk like 20-30% of your audience is under 13.

    MYtio8V.jpg
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Isn't COPPA basically that an organization cannot harvest data from children under 13? (that sounds horrific stated like that).

    So why is the onus on the channels? They aren't the ones harvesting the data. It's YouTube.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It's YouTube's fault, but it doesn't matter at this point, channels are being affected. It doesn't help YouTube's algorithm is so bad it can't be trusted to police their content anyways.

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited November 21
    urahonky wrote: »
    Isn't COPPA basically that an organization cannot harvest data from children under 13? (that sounds horrific stated like that).

    So why is the onus on the channels? They aren't the ones harvesting the data. It's YouTube.

    It was YouTube's responsibility, but a part of their recent settlement with the FTC was the agreement that YouTube shouldn't be responsible for what other people do. FTC agree'd and took their cool $170 mil sans all that prolonged courtroom drama (well, technically it did take like a year+, but still!).

    So basically it shakes down like this. By having Content Creators flag themselves as "for kids" or "not for kids" YouTube gets to wash their hands of the mess.

    If your channel is "For kids", well you probably won't have a channel for long as those get removed from AdSense. Your channel also loses out on other things like Community tab, comments (kinda wish this applied to all channels tbh), title/end blocks and likely a couple other things I'm forgetting.

    If you flag your channel as "not for kids", but the FTC deems that it is based on their extremely vague criteria or you just so happen to appeal to a lot of children through no fault of your own (goodbye to anything dealing with Minecraft) then you get sued (and likely lose the channel). If YouTube's algorithms deem that is it, well you also still lose out on your channel and revenue until you go through an appeals process.


    edit- A summarized version of YouTube's argument to the FTC:

    FTC: "You've been collecting data on children for years."

    YouTube: "But YouTube is expressly a 13 or older website!"

    FTC: "A terrifyingly large percent of your users are under 13."

    YouTube: "That's not our fault! It's those damn Content Creators! They're making videos that appeal to children under 13! We're powerless to stop it!"

    FTC: "Well that argument sounds good to me. You can go ahead and write the check out to 'cash'."

    Axen on
    Stormwatcher
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Microsoft/Amazon should swoop in and make something like YouTube. But in reality there can't be any money in it.

    Zilla360
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited November 21
    I think any tech companies looking to get into that market are watching all the shit YouTube is going through and thinking "I'm good"

    They biggest competition to YouTube isn't an app just like it, it's apps like Instagram and TikTok, both of which I'm sure the FTC is eyeing as we speak

    Local H Jay on
    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
    urahonkyAxenshoeboxjeddyKoopahTroopahZilla360
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I think any tech companies looking to get into that market are watching all the shit YouTube is going through and thinking "I'm good"

    They biggest competition to YouTube isn't an app just like it, it's apps like Instagram and TikTok, both of which I'm sure the FTC is eyeing as we speak

    Actually TikTok was already sued by the FTC back in February. They paid $5.7 mil.

    To the FTC this is a cash pinata. I don't think anyone is going to try to actually fight them and they'd likely just settle. Pretty sure the FTC has figured this out too. Their guidelines are so vague that they could probably throw a dart at just about any channel and find a violator. It also isn't helping anyone that YouTube's algorithms are forcing channels to be Family Friendly in order to make a buck and therefore are also more likely to be in violation of the FTC's esoteric rules.

  • El FantasticoEl Fantastico Toronto, ONRegistered User regular
    edited November 22
    How does the FTC affect content from outside the US though? Do they have jurisdiction to go to some European youtubers channel and say "Oy, bruv!" and slap them with a fine? Is it because Youtube/Google are US based?

    Does this also affect Twitch or does Twitch not mine data and content makers getting revenue through Twitch is mostly donation-based because it's live streaming? That would help with some of the channels possibly getting flagged, but there are a bunch of really cool informative videos (thinking like, recipe/cooking stuff) that could get flagged because kids see chocolate cake or donuts with sprinkles or whatever. Live-streaming a cake baking video would be hella boring.

    "This goes in the oven at 350 for 30 minutes..."

    El Fantastico on
    PSN: TheArcadeBear
    Steam: TheArcadeBear

  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    How does the FTC affect content from outside the US though? Do they have jurisdiction to go to some European youtubers channel and say "Oy, bruv!" and slap them with a fine? Is it because Youtube/Google are US based?
    I think in that instance Youtube will just straight up delete your channel. Creators (outside of the US) can't/won't face any of the more direct consequences of COPPA, being outside of US jurisdiction, but Google absolutely has to obey, being a US company.

    At least that's how I think it will go, IANAL whatsoever. I just set my (tiny insignificant) channel to a blanket adults only setting, so maybe it'll be okay? Maaaaybe? :bigfrown:

    I feel bad for anyone actually trying to make a living of any kind on YT, it seems now to just get harder/more fraught with difficulties, year on year.

    Skidzilla360.jpg | NH844lc.png | GACSALB.jpg My Blog | Gravatar | PSN | 72INGtl.jpg | HkSlskT.png
    AxenKayne Red Robe
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    Arin is the last person whose opinion on this whole COPPA stuff I'd trust.

    I'd be shitting my pants if I lived off Content Creation at Youtube.

    Steam: Stormwatcher | PSN: Stormwatcher33 | Switch: 5961-4777-3491
    camo_sig2.png
    Local H JayAxenZilla360Thawmus
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Arin is the last person whose opinion on this whole COPPA stuff I'd trust.

    I'd be shitting my pants if I lived off Content Creation at Youtube.

    I know a number of YouTubers I watch have stopped relying on ad revenue and have moved towards Patreon and having Sponsors. I think this is probably the better way to do things, relying on ad revenue from YouTube seems like a one way ticket to Stress City. Trying to keep up with the ever changing algorithms is a Sisyphean task. Living with the Sword of Damocles that is random and nonsensical demonetization bots sounds dreadful. You can't really ever stop and take a vacation without the bots dropping you.

    I know some people have bitched about YouTubers having sponors and patreons, but man, mother fuckers need to pay bills! If having a patreon and shilling a product allows content creators to have a much more reliable and predictable income plus allow them to actually have some R&R, then I am A-OK with that.

    WACriminalMNC DoverKoopahTroopahZilla360MulletudeDark Raven XThawmusMr Ray
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Yeah I have a hard time paying for a patreon for a YouTube channel. Even a dollar a month... But honestly if this fucks over Game Grumps and/or Redlettermedia then I will absolutely pay per month to keep them up.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Yeah but again, Patreon really only pays the bills if you have a bigger audience. It's good to have one regardless but, I wouldn't count out how much a decently viewed video can make. Like yes, once you break the 100k subs mark, you better have a Patreon and Merch but smaller YouTubers are gonna be affected the most.

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
    StormwatcherMr Ray
  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Yeah but again, Patreon really only pays the bills if you have a bigger audience. It's good to have one regardless but, I wouldn't count out how much a decently viewed video can make. Like yes, once you break the 100k subs mark, you better have a Patreon and Merch but smaller YouTubers are gonna be affected the most.

    The thing about not having the audience to support a Patreon is that I'd expect that means your ad revenue is pitiful too and YouTube isn't your full time job (yet?)

    McMoogle
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    I suspect that we'll start seeing more organizations that form soft "networks" of YouTube and Twitch channels, with central Patreons for each network. Similar to how lots of podcasts are gathered up under MaxFun, Earwolf, etc. They do all their fundraising together, at a specific time of year, for maximum penetration.

    Because the way YouTube is moving, there doesn't seem to be any reason to rely on their shit.

    Local H Jay
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Yeah but again, Patreon really only pays the bills if you have a bigger audience. It's good to have one regardless but, I wouldn't count out how much a decently viewed video can make. Like yes, once you break the 100k subs mark, you better have a Patreon and Merch but smaller YouTubers are gonna be affected the most.

    The thing about not having the audience to support a Patreon is that I'd expect that means your ad revenue is pitiful too and YouTube isn't your full time job (yet?)

    Yeah but that first influx of cash is crucial to budding channels. I've watched a lot of YouTubers talk about when they finally got monetization, they were able to take on YouTube as a part time job. By the time you hit your stride, it could become a full time job. Ad revenue from YouTube videos can help you fund things as they take up more of your time, allowing you to grow that audience because you're making money. Patreon is a bandaid to a broader issue, which is that bots run YouTube and can take away a significant portion of your revenue away. Not to mention, being demonitized can also lead to your video being suppressed.

    This video is (partially) about the effects the bots can have on content and the creators:


    Around the 19 min mark they talk about FairTube, a organization of YouTubers fighting to get YouTube to clearly explain the rules behind monetization. The COPPA stuff is scary because youtubes bots are already doing things that YouTube says they aren't, and as time goes on the algorithm learns to block certain videos from making money and being shared on the site. They show a small channel by the name of Armchair Historian who was a two man team; he goes on to explain around the @ 23 min mark that he had a full time employee coming to work with him on these videos, he was demonitized for using the wrong words in his title, and then couldn't pay his editor/researcher. This is crippling for a small channel, and many have folded under that pressure, because they don't have the network to reach out to YouTube or gather fund elsewhere.

    XB1/360 - Local H Jay
    PS4 - Local_H_Jay
    Sub me on Youtube
    And Twitch
    AxenZilla360
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, history channels have been hit hard by the bots as of late. Turns out history is kinda full of Bad Stuff(tm).

    The Armchair Historian actually started a website specifically for history and history-adjacent YouTubers to post their videos. Pretty much everyone I follow is on it already, so that's neat.

    Local H JayZilla360Apogee
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Oh yeah, history channels have been hit hard by the bots as of late. Turns out history is kinda full of Bad Stuff(tm).

    The Armchair Historian actually started a website specifically for history and history-adjacent YouTubers to post their videos. Pretty much everyone I follow is on it already, so that's neat.

    A legal channel I like (legaleagle) just did a similar thing but more broadly. It seems to be relatively more common for content creators, or groups of them (I imagine they're more whoever is backing the channels, my understanding is that it's increasingly rare for channels to be independent if the become of any size) to be putting out their own video sites, usually some sort of subscription based.

    Which just makes me wonder, where are these things being hosted? Who's handling the bandwidth, encoding, etc? Is that a service out there people can just buy to run their own video sites, or are these groups making their own? And regardless, isn't that all just kicking the can down the road, as far as the reasons these people are wanting to move away from youtube? Data collection of children isn't going to be any different, restriction wise, on any streaming site. You may avoid attention for awhile not being big, but if you become any size you're gonna get noticed, and if you haven't been doing things on the level you're likely not going to have the leverage for a nice deal like Google here.

    As far as visibility, I guess some money from subs is better than being demonetized on youtube, but just like with legal restrictions, if you become of any size, you're going to attract the attention of other media, and a company like Universal or something isn't going to be any more friendly because you're not on youtube if they think you're hosting their content. They may not be able to automate a takedown, but they can still just sue you and bring your site down via other means.

    I get the desire to not be under the thumb of algorithms and automation on Youtube, with constant threats being hung over your head, but you're also opening the door for other avenues of attack that youtube possibly prevented because of its size. Twitch may be nice for streaming but it is hot garbage for anything that isn't live right now. It seems to me the best bet people have is to do like Sterling (whether you like him personally or not) and have your income be from outside support like patreon and just assume that any video you upload will be immediately demonetized. Yeah that requires a steady stream of income from individuals, but you never really need to worry about copyright claims, as long as they don't go to straight up takedowns.

    Steam: Galedrid - XBL: Galedrid - PSN: Galedrid
    Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
    Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand

    Zilla360Axen
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    This entire mess reminds me of what happened with Lootboxes, where an industry or group had a chance to self-regulate but everything caught up to them. Unfortunately, YouTube are just passing on the buck of their error - quite literally IMO - to content creators and trying to wash their hands of any obligation. What they may end up doing is very well killing a lot of what makes youtube actually interesting to watch. I'm not sure how video game shows are going to go, especially any that have ever made the mistake of playing Minecraft on their channel.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    Zilla360Axendarunia106
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Some more COPPA news.

    So it turns out that COPPA does in fact have an exception in the law for Mixed/General Audiences. The FTC recognizes that some things out there appeal to everyone. That is cool.

    However, YouTube on the other hand is going ahead with their more Black/White interpretation. Your channel is either For Kids or Not For Kids. There is no middle ground. If you are in violation, YouTube (but not the FTC) will take action (up to and including closing your channel).

    YouTube is well aware of this General Audience exception to COPPA. However, they have deemed that creating a system to sort channels with this exception in mind would ultimately hurt their bottom line.

    So to recap; If your channel has a General Audience you don't need to worry about the FTC. Super, no one wants to have to deal with the FTC. However, YouTube doesn't care nor do their bots. So if you flag your channel as "Not For Kids", but you have a General Audience then the bots will come down on you. While certainly not as bad as getting sued by the FTC it would still be pretty devastating to a lot of channels out there.

    So as a Content Creator you've two options:

    1) Flag your channel as "For Kids". You will absolutely lose revenue and generally hamstring your channel. But, you'll not have to worry about the bots. Well, I suppose you still need to worry about the good ol' demonetizing bots.

    2) Flag your channel as "Not For Kids", but you will have to live with the reality that bots may deem you in violation through no fault of your own and shut your channel down. Though you still don't need to worry about the FTC.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    All of this COPPA stuff seems like it’s wildly unnecessary and a mess that should easily be able to be fixed if people have a shit.

    Twitch Page
    Hearthstone: mncdover#1994
    Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
    3DS: 1934-0659-5183
    Steam ID
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    All of this COPPA stuff seems like it’s wildly unnecessary and a mess that should easily be able to be fixed if people have a shit.

    Less unnecessary, and more wildly misdirected. There is an epidemic of weird shitty videos that make money off of the clicks of little kids, showing them awful videos made solely for the purpose of making money from parents sitting their kids down in front of the internet unsupervised and letting them have at it. However, the law as it currently exists affects a lot of legitimate videos that shouldn't be impacted, but might be.

    Zilla360urahonkyThawmusMr Ray
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited November 24
    The law itself is fine, it's been around since 2000 or something. Youtube fucked up by putting targeted ads on children's videos, and now Youtube is doing a shitty job of trying to remain compliant by putting all the blame on creators and relying on the algorithm. The FTC isn't going to go after general audience stuff because it's not that well funded an agency to individually look at the 300 hours of video uploaded a minute, and the people working there who would look at the cases would understand the nuance of, say, a video about intricate methods to customize dolls using expensive tools and detailed work. But Youtube just sees dolls and thinks kids and they send in the nukes.

    Aistan on
    steam_sig.png
    RanlinZilla360
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    All of this COPPA stuff seems like it’s wildly unnecessary and a mess that should easily be able to be fixed if people have a shit.

    Less unnecessary, and more wildly misdirected. There is an epidemic of weird shitty videos that make money off of the clicks of little kids, showing them awful videos made solely for the purpose of making money from parents sitting their kids down in front of the internet unsupervised and letting them have at it. However, the law as it currently exists affects a lot of legitimate videos that shouldn't be impacted, but might be.

    However, can I also point out that half of this problem was created by YouTube itself and the way their algorithms worked on stacking weird keywords etc. The fact is, YouTube made the problem of kids being drawn down rabbit holes of awful and exploitative videos like this.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    ReynoldsRanlindarunia106ThawmusZilla360Mr RayHeffling
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    Well and also by propping up folks like Jake Paul who are millionaires by way of merchandising to children.

    steam_sig.png
    Zilla360
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    Youtube is amazingly evil and horrible, all things considered. I really wish it imploded and some other service got a chance. Not gonna happen though.

    Steam: Stormwatcher | PSN: Stormwatcher33 | Switch: 5961-4777-3491
    camo_sig2.png
  • darunia106darunia106 J-bob in games Death MountainRegistered User regular
    Here's a really good video that breaks it all down as straightforwardly as humanly possible:

    MYtio8V.jpg
    Elvenshae
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    This Michigan: Report From Hell video is great. VA work kinda reminds me of the original Resident Evil.

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I actually had to look it up. This bit in the wiki caught my eye.

    “Although the word Michigan by itself usually refers to the State of Michigan and Hell suggests the town of Hell, the game takes place in Chicago, Illinois, and is named because the game's phenomena center around Lake Michigan.”

    Being from Michigan and of course knowing all about Hell my disappointment great.

    urahonkyZilla360
  • ReynoldsReynolds Raving Rabbit Registered User regular
    edited November 27
    Michigan was so weird and obscure that even the creator had no idea there was an English version made.
    There's a great LP up on the archive if you want to experience everything, it's fascinating.

    Reynolds on
    OGueI9Q.gif
    urahonkyZilla360Joolander
Sign In or Register to comment.