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New Threat to Video Games

xanderxander Registered User new member
edited May 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Check out the following e-mail I received from second-to-none, a mystery shopping company. I'm not sure who is bankrolling this, but someone wants children to enter video game stores undercover to catch video game stores with lax policies regarding M-rated games. Fight the man! Spread the word so retailers know to be on their toes in the following weeks. Don't give Hillary ammunition! STN is investigating game stores in 27 states from now through 5/19; who knows how many more mystery shopping agencies are in on this?

Part of the original e-mail follows. I cut out the list of targetted shops because it's long and poorly-formatted.


Subject:
Teen Video Game Compliance Mystery Shops!

Hello Shoppers!

Second To None has been selected to conduct an entertainment industry survey of video game retailers. These surveys will be used to gauge how often the retailers are enforcing the age restrictions for mature-rated games.

Your child will visit a local retail store that sells M-rated video games and attempt to purchase one. If allowed to do so by the cashier, the child must purchase the product. If the purchase attempt is denied, the child must make a small purchase (gum, candy) in order to validate the visit and get a receipt. You will be reimbursed for the purchase up to $5 + compensation. While your child is locating and attempting to buy the product, you will need to survey the store for required game rating signage. You must appear to be in the store separate from your child.

If you are interested in participating and have children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, or friends with children between the ages of 13-16, please visit our website to request these assignments. If you have more than one 13-16 yr. old, both children can participate in the study if more than one assignment is available in your area. You will be required to sign a parental consent form and send in proof of age (copy of birth certificate, school ID, or driver's license).

Thank you!
[Jill]



INFORMATION NEEDED
Your First/Last Name:
No. of children between age 13-16:
Age of Each Child:
Gender of Each Child:

ASSIGNMENT DETAILS
*Payment: $10 per shop; purchase/return required plus reimbursement for additional purchase up to $5
*Evaluation: Minor will attempt to purchase any M-rated video game
*Notes: Shop is expected to take 10 minutes
*Shop dates: See Below!

xander on
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Posts

  • Options
    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I don't consider this a threat.

    Stores SHOULD be refusing sales of M-rated games to minors. If they fall for this then they deserve to get busted for it.

    The real problem in my opinion is parents who don't take an interest and just buy whatever the kid asks for without researching it first.

    MuddBudd on
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
  • Options
    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    xander wrote: »
    Check out the following e-mail I received from second-to-none, a mystery shopping company. I'm not sure who is bankrolling this, but someone wants children to enter video game stores undercover to catch video game stores with lax policies regarding M-rated games. Fight the man! Spread the word so retailers know to be on their toes in the following weeks. Don't give Hillary ammunition! STN is investigating game stores in 27 states from now through 5/19; who knows how many more mystery shopping agencies are in on this?

    "Fight the man"? Are you an idiot? This is a good thing - stores should be enforcing the ESRB rating system. M-rated games should not be sold to children under 17.

    Janin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    ShurakaiShurakai Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    For the one day I was on till duty, I let a 16 year old kid purchase Fable but I wouldn't have let a 13 year old buy GTA. Everyone is pretty lax about it here in most cases unless the kid is clearly very young. I work at Future Shop (basically the canadian version of Best Buy).

    Shurakai on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    Oh noes, retailers might have to more effectively monitor game sales due to public pressure instead of retarded and unconstitutional laws. Social responsibility is so icky!

    Fight the man!

    Down with responsibility!

    Let's all go get drunk and then light our farts on fire!

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Oh noes, retailers might have to more effectively monitor game sales due to public pressure instead of retarded and unconstitutional laws. Social responsibility is so icky!

    Fight the man!

    Down with responsibility!

    Let's all go get drunk and then light our farts on fire!

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    So you're against making video game store employees do their job? Brave stance there.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Options
    A-RodA-Rod Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    How is this a threat to video games?

    A-Rod on
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    Pants ManPants Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    xander, there's a difference between trying to regulate the content of games and trying to regulate the sale of games. jack thompson is an asshole because he wants to change the content of video games, not because he wants to forbid minors from buying anything m-rated. don't confuse the two, plz.

    Pants Man on
    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • Options
    NanaNana Fuzzy Little Yeti Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    I don't consider this a threat.

    Stores SHOULD be refusing sales of M-rated games to minors. If they fall for this then they deserve to get busted for it.

    The real problem in my opinion is parents who don't take an interest and just buy whatever the kid asks for without researching it first.

    I don't think stores should be required to refuse the sell of M rated games to minors, if anything it should be more like movie theaters, where the movie theater sets up its own standards and decides if they want to let kids into r-rated movies or not. They aren't required to keep kids from seeing those movies, they do it on their own. (But, I am glad most movie theaters do enforce age restrictions, I don't want a bunch of dumb 12-year olds ruining my R-rated movie experiences.)

    Nana on
    3DS Friend Code: 3823-8688-4581
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    Pants ManPants Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nana wrote: »
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    I don't consider this a threat.

    Stores SHOULD be refusing sales of M-rated games to minors. If they fall for this then they deserve to get busted for it.

    The real problem in my opinion is parents who don't take an interest and just buy whatever the kid asks for without researching it first.

    I don't think stores should be required to refuse the sell of M rated games to minors, if anything it should be more like movie theaters, where the movie theater sets up its own standards and decides if they want to let kids into r-rated movies or not. They aren't required to keep kids from seeing those movies, they do it on their own. (But, I am glad most movie theaters do enforce age restrictions, I don't want a bunch of dumb 12-year olds ruining my R-rated movie experiences.)

    what, movie theaters don't set their own standards. why do you think they have the ratings system in the first place? if you're under 17 and you try and see an R rated movie by yourself, you aren't supposed to be let in. if the theater violates that, then that's a fuckup, not their "policy"

    same thing with the sale of R rated movies.

    Pants Man on
    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • Options
    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    . . . . Good?

    What the hell is wrong with you?

    Shinto on
  • Options
    NanaNana Fuzzy Little Yeti Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Pants Man wrote: »
    Nana wrote: »
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    I don't consider this a threat.

    Stores SHOULD be refusing sales of M-rated games to minors. If they fall for this then they deserve to get busted for it.

    The real problem in my opinion is parents who don't take an interest and just buy whatever the kid asks for without researching it first.

    I don't think stores should be required to refuse the sell of M rated games to minors, if anything it should be more like movie theaters, where the movie theater sets up its own standards and decides if they want to let kids into r-rated movies or not. They aren't required to keep kids from seeing those movies, they do it on their own. (But, I am glad most movie theaters do enforce age restrictions, I don't want a bunch of dumb 12-year olds ruining my R-rated movie experiences.)

    what, movie theaters don't set their own standards. why do you think they have the ratings system in the first place? if you're under 17 and you try and see an R rated movie by yourself, you aren't supposed to be let in. if the theater violates that, then that's a fuckup, not their "policy"

    same thing with the sale of R rated movies.

    Yes, there are ratings for movies like there are ratings for games. But, its not a law that theaters have to enforce the ratings but not letting kids into r-rated movies. They can let them in if they want. The theaters set up their own policies, and all the major theaters chose to follow the ratings and not let minors in. But its not a law.

    I was trying to say, companies that sell games should be able to choose if they want to sell M-rated games to minors or not.

    Nana on
    3DS Friend Code: 3823-8688-4581
  • Options
    SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I have no problems with additional enforcing of the ESRB system. In the end, if retailers can pull off some stats saying they are doing their job properly, we can justify having more freedom in released game content.

    TLDR: Digital boobies rock.

    Sarcastro on
  • Options
    Pants ManPants Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nana wrote: »
    Yes, there are ratings for movies like there are ratings for games. But, its not a law that theaters have to enforce the ratings but not letting kids into r-rated movies. They can let them in if they want. The theaters set up their own policies, and all the major theaters chose to follow the ratings and not let minors in. But its not a law.

    I was trying to say, companies that sell games should be able to choose if they want to sell M-rated games to minors or not.

    welp, wikipedia says you're right, so my bad on that. and since that's the case, i'd agree with you in principle, but i also don't think that any major chain of stores would ever make it their policy to allow the sale M rated games to minors.

    ultimately it's still the parent's responsibility for what a minor sees and plays, so i really don't have a problem with stores trying to enforce the ban on minors buying anything M rated.

    Pants Man on
    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    Nana wrote: »
    Yes, there are ratings for movies like there are ratings for games. But, its not a law that theaters have to enforce the ratings but not letting kids into r-rated movies. They can let them in if they want. The theaters set up their own policies, and all the major theaters chose to follow the ratings and not let minors in. But its not a law.

    I was trying to say, companies that sell games should be able to choose if they want to sell M-rated games to minors or not.

    This ignores the fact that the reason there's not a huge and persistent outcry against movie theaters is precisely because they almost invariably "choose" to enforce the ratings.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    NanaNana Fuzzy Little Yeti Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Nana wrote: »
    Yes, there are ratings for movies like there are ratings for games. But, its not a law that theaters have to enforce the ratings but not letting kids into r-rated movies. They can let them in if they want. The theaters set up their own policies, and all the major theaters chose to follow the ratings and not let minors in. But its not a law.

    I was trying to say, companies that sell games should be able to choose if they want to sell M-rated games to minors or not.

    This ignores the fact that the reason there's not a huge and persistent outcry against movie theaters is precisely because they almost invariably "choose" to enforce the ratings.

    (In my opinion)
    We have to take into account the fact that a bunch of unsupervised kids watching a movie that is tailored to adults, is probably going to make the watching the movie un-enjoyable for alot of the adults. I think that is mostly the reason theaters do enfoce the ratings, not for "moral" reasons.

    Some 10 year old kid buying an M-rated game doesn't hinder my enjoyment of that game in any way, I don't have to sit next to that kid while he plays it.

    I believe it is the parents responsibility to monitor what kinds of movies their kids see and what kinds of games their kids play. Don't want your kid to buy a M-rated game? Then don't give your kids money and let them run around a store unsupervised.

    Or, if you have to let your kid run around unsupervised, drop them off at a store that does follow the ratings like Toys R Us and Walmart.

    And if your kid buys an M-rated game, take it away, or take it back to the store.

    Nana on
    3DS Friend Code: 3823-8688-4581
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    Erm... wouldn't this run up against child labour laws? I know its illegal to work here if you're younger than 14 and nine months.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Isn't it a little weird to have kids running around with 50 bucks to plotz on a game anyways? If I'd ever had that kind of cash I would have died in a diabetic coma.

    Sarcastro on
  • Options
    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I don't see how this is a bad thing. El Jeffe put it better, but this sort of thing will not only provide real data about the enforcement of the ratings to "family first" type groups, but it'll also provide data to the retailers who will, in turn, be able to focus more attention on where they're weak on enforcement. This isn't going to ruin video games or anything. Market pressure is actually the best option when it comes to ratings systems.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    Nana wrote: »
    (In my opinion)
    We have to take into account the fact that a bunch of unsupervised kids watching a movie that is tailored to adults, is probably going to make the watching the movie un-enjoyable for alot of the adults. I think that is mostly the reason theaters do enfoce the ratings, not for "moral" reasons.

    Unsupervised kids cease being all that disruptive well before they actually have the sort of disposable income to be going to see movies on their own with any regularity. I see PG and PG-13 movies all the time, and I can recall very few instances where there was disruption caused by unsupervised children. The problem is almost always some screaming 3 year old there with his parents, who isn't silenced because the parents would rather piss of the entire theater than miss part of their precious movie.

    Regardless, that's beside the point. Whatever the reason is, movie theaters police themselves, and that's why the government isn't trying to. If they didn't police themselves, you can bet your ass the government would try to get involved. The best thing we can do to keep the government out of video games is to get the industry to act responsibly on its own.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Erm... wouldn't this run up against child labour laws? I know its illegal to work here if you're younger than 14 and nine months.

    No, kids can work, there's just a limit on what type of work and how long they're allowed to work every day. I think it's something like four hours a day maximum.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Options
    Pants ManPants Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The best thing we can do to keep the government out of video games is to get the industry to act responsibly on its own.

    that's probably the best way to put it. i know the knee jerk reaction of a lot of people is to go FUCK YOU I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME, especially when it comes to precious, precious video games. but that's a bad bad idea, because right now the industry does a fairly decent job of regulating itself, and the feds would likely turn it into a much more draconian and stupid system.

    that's why rockstar sometimes pisses me off, because sometimes they act like they don't give a fuck if about any of this, when really they're some of the people who should be keeping tabs on stuff the most.

    Pants Man on
    "okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Erm... wouldn't this run up against child labour laws? I know its illegal to work here if you're younger than 14 and nine months.

    No, kids can work, there's just a limit on what type of work and how long they're allowed to work every day. I think it's something like four hours a day maximum.

    ah, ok.

    I still think its weird that these folk are advertising their scheme through email spam, though. and I'm not entirely convinced that the OP isn't in fact a spammer, with his one post and lack of participation in this thread. Pretty sure its a crock.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    That was my original thought too. I only posted after I saw mods posting and not locking.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Options
    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Nana wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Nana wrote: »
    Yes, there are ratings for movies like there are ratings for games. But, its not a law that theaters have to enforce the ratings but not letting kids into r-rated movies. They can let them in if they want. The theaters set up their own policies, and all the major theaters chose to follow the ratings and not let minors in. But its not a law.

    I was trying to say, companies that sell games should be able to choose if they want to sell M-rated games to minors or not.

    This ignores the fact that the reason there's not a huge and persistent outcry against movie theaters is precisely because they almost invariably "choose" to enforce the ratings.

    (In my opinion)
    We have to take into account the fact that a bunch of unsupervised kids watching a movie that is tailored to adults, is probably going to make the watching the movie un-enjoyable for alot of the adults. I think that is mostly the reason theaters do enfoce the ratings, not for "moral" reasons.

    Some 10 year old kid buying an M-rated game doesn't hinder my enjoyment of that game in any way, I don't have to sit next to that kid while he plays it.
    I don't think the published intent of the MPAA movie ratings system is to keep annoying children out of the "adult swim" movie time.

    SithDrummer on
  • Options
    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Erm... wouldn't this run up against child labour laws? I know its illegal to work here if you're younger than 14 and nine months.

    No, kids can work, there's just a limit on what type of work and how long they're allowed to work every day. I think it's something like four hours a day maximum.

    ah, ok.

    I still think its weird that these folk are advertising their scheme through email spam, though. and I'm not entirely convinced that the OP isn't in fact a spammer, with his one post and lack of participation in this thread. Pretty sure its a crock.

    I dunno, I did secret shopper stuff like that when I was a kid. Granted, I did it for cigarettes and I did this for a police officer, but it's still pretty similar. I also used to work for a marketing survey place and we did secret shopper stuff like this occasionally. I'm not saying this guy's on the level, but this doesn't really strike me as being a scam or anything.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Options
    FallingmanFallingman Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The sooner they prosecute a few stores, the sooner these people can stop saying "games are ruining our children". It should be like saying "alchohol made my child agressive" - really? do you think it was a good fucking idea to give a child alcohol?

    Fallingman on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless, that's beside the point. Whatever the reason is, movie theaters police themselves, and that's why the government isn't trying to. If they didn't police themselves, you can bet your ass the government would try to get involved. The best thing we can do to keep the government out of video games is to get the industry to act responsibly on its own.

    If stores don't self-regulate, then the government might have a case against the store. They should still keep out of the games themselves, just like they would go after movie theatres instead of movie content.

    I agree it's best to try not to give busybodies an excuse to butt in (even though they'll probably find one anyways).

    BubbaT on
  • Options
    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2007
    mtvcdm wrote: »
    That was my original thought too. I only posted after I saw mods posting and not locking.

    The thought occured to me, as well, and the fact that he hasn't posted again makes it more likely, but it actually spawned a halfway-decent thread, so whatever.

    ElJeffe on
    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Options
    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Oh noes, retailers might have to more effectively monitor game sales due to public pressure instead of retarded and unconstitutional laws. Social responsibility is so icky!

    Fight the man!

    Down with responsibility!

    Let's all go get drunk and then light our farts on fire!

    Dude, my dad owns a dealership.


    But in all honesty, there's nothing to be fearful of.
    I actually ENCOURAGE this.
    So long as game stores are getting called out for doing something we all agree is pretty terrible anyway, it'll keep guys like Jack Thompson from spreading rumors about gamers just handing "Murder Simulators" over to kids.

    The Muffin Man on
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited May 2007
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    [doublelime]The best thing we can do to keep the government out of video games is to get the industry to act responsibly on its own.[/doublelime]

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    YarYar Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Damnit I almost fucking set my pants on fire when I lighted a fart. You guys need to put ratings on your posts so I know when they aren't safe.

    Anyway, yeah, I'm all for enforcement. Partly because I'm a major citizen. But honestly I would have supported it when I was a mallrat, too. Despite all the valid arguments against them, it won't destroy the earth to have enforcement of decency standards. In the end I think they'll only allow for greater freedom of expression and protection for the industry.

    These ratings need to be understood and trusted, or Rodham might bring down the whoel industry.

    Yar on
  • Options
    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Fallingman wrote: »
    The sooner they prosecute a few stores, the sooner these people can stop saying "games are ruining our children". It should be like saying "alchohol made my child agressive" - really? do you think it was a good fucking idea to give a child alcohol?

    On the other hand, we really don't want "I gave my child alcohol" and "I gave my child a video game" to seem like the same thing.

    jothki on
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    xanderxander Registered User new member
    edited May 2007
    You all have some valid points about enforcement... I especially like the logic that evidence showing video game stores to effectively police themselves reduces pressure against the creators of M-rated games.

    Usually, retailers hire mystery shopping companies to audit compliance with their own policies. The wording of this particular e-mail made it sound like STN was investigating game retailers on some third party's behalf, but it turns out all the shops on the list are the same company's stores... So nothing fishy is going on. My original intent was to notify retailers that they're being targeted, and obviously that's not the case.

    I'd also like to clarify that I signed up to receive this e-mail; it's not spam. You could probably accurately describe my post as spam, though, since it's ill-conceived and the tiniest bit hyperbolic.

    xander on
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    Rabid_LlamaRabid_Llama Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shit, if they stop selling to minors then who is going to call me a "fagz0r looser" over live?

    Rabid_Llama on
    /sig
    The+Rabid+Llama.png
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited May 2007
    Shit, if they stop selling to minors then who is going to call me a "fagz0r looser" over live?

    God, no fucking kidding. 12 year old who get M rated games are the greatest plague on gaming. Fuck Jack/Hillary -- little Jimmy Smith is the biggest threat to gaming.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shit, if they stop selling to minors then who is going to call me a "fagz0r looser" over live?

    All the twenty somethings because "zomg X weapon is noob you fucker!"

    Leitner on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    SC wrote: »
    Shit, if they stop selling to minors then who is going to call me a "fagz0r looser" over live?

    All the twenty somethings because "zomg X weapon is noob you fucker!"

    Yeah, I got stuck in a few games back in the day that were populated entirely with frat boys and 13-year-olds.

    It was a special version of Hell created just for me.


    As far as the OP goes, sounds like a plan. I see no problem with an industry self-regulating, and these regulations in particular seem pretty reasonable.

    mcdermott on
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    TalleyrandTalleyrand Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The only thing I'm afraid of is a new article coming out of this and saying "X out of Y stores did not enforce the ratings rules. Therefor fines for breaking this law must be $10,000" which in the end would hurt gamers. Normally I wouldn't expect that kind of thing to be very plausible but I've recently heard about the internet radio issue where they're trying to shut them down with insanely high ownership policies for no good reason.

    Talleyrand on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    EBStop does do these secret shops for the ESRB stuff.

    YodaTuna on
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