There's no question that Trump is completely within his rights to pardon Cohen. But Cohen is very, very dirty. So there's really no possible interpretation of that pardon which is not a flagrant abuse of power for personal gain. Would that be enough for an impeachment, I don't know, but it's a huge risk especially going into the midterms.
In a sane world, it would be.
That would almost certainly fit the definition of bribery, and that is one of the few things explicitly listed in the Constitution as an impeachable offense.
Also pardoning Cohen only excuses the crimes he's committed up to that point, not crimes he commits in the future. Which, with this guy, that's a legitimate concern.
Really, even if Trump serves out his term(s) and none of his clan go to jail due to pardons, they're still at risk going forward just because of the way they do business and the massive target that will be on their backs. I could see him being the first President to end up leaving the country after his term.
They would also likely be liable for civil court action by a ton of people even if they were given blanket pardons for any and all previous crimes. Plus the state charges that could be brought. Many prosecutors would love to make a name for themselves tackling that kind of corruption.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2018
I am amused at the pacing of news going on.
- Cohen tells people privately he might get arrested soon
- speculation then confirmation that his defense team is leaving him
- prosecution preparing paperwork to arrest Cohen
Edit - Bonus points on Cohen being a loudmouth blowhard tough guy.
his legal team leaving strikes me as strange; like presumably they had at least some idea of what they were getting into when he hired them in the first place
or maybe he just stopped paying them, who knows
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
his legal team leaving strikes me as strange; like presumably they had at least some idea of what they were getting into when he hired them in the first place
or maybe he just stopped paying them, who knows
It can also be a sign that he's prepared to cooperate - there was at one other case in this extended debacle where a defendant seemed to mysteriously drop his lawyers then show up with a new one shortly later, and looking at the new one's case history it was full of big time plea deals, many of which seemed to have worked out quite well for his clients. There are lawyers who specialize in brokering deals rather than litigating a defense.
There's no question that Trump is completely within his rights to pardon Cohen. But Cohen is very, very dirty. So there's really no possible interpretation of that pardon which is not a flagrant abuse of power for personal gain. Would that be enough for an impeachment, I don't know, but it's a huge risk especially going into the midterms.
Trump isn’t aware enough to have the ability to calculate that kind of election calculus.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
his legal team leaving strikes me as strange; like presumably they had at least some idea of what they were getting into when he hired them in the first place
or maybe he just stopped paying them, who knows
Like many large firms, getting in bed with the devil is likely nothing new for McDermott. The devil usually pays, after all. The likeliest reason is that he just stopped paying them. Partner rates at BigLaw firms can easily top $1k/hr, and the fleet of associates and paralegals billing under them don’t get lower than $250 (and that’s for the paralegal). Going through all those documents to flag privileged items by the deadline easily allows the firm to bill Cohen in the millions just for that, and the son of a bitch hasn’t even been charged yet.
3DS: 2165 - 6538 - 3417
NNID: Hakkekage
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
his legal team leaving strikes me as strange; like presumably they had at least some idea of what they were getting into when he hired them in the first place
or maybe he just stopped paying them, who knows
From what I read earlier today (forgot the publication, sorry), it's being speculated that stuff that was in the materials for attorney / client privilege review scared his legal team. It's the guess I would've made.
There's no question that Trump is completely within his rights to pardon Cohen. But Cohen is very, very dirty. So there's really no possible interpretation of that pardon which is not a flagrant abuse of power for personal gain. Would that be enough for an impeachment, I don't know, but it's a huge risk especially going into the midterms.
Trump isn’t aware enough to have the ability to calculate that kind of election calculus.
this is a giant mistake to make if you want to win anything in the mids, nevermind take back the Presidency should all this come to naught.
There's no question that Trump is completely within his rights to pardon Cohen. But Cohen is very, very dirty. So there's really no possible interpretation of that pardon which is not a flagrant abuse of power for personal gain. Would that be enough for an impeachment, I don't know, but it's a huge risk especially going into the midterms.
Trump isn’t aware enough to have the ability to calculate that kind of election calculus.
this is a giant mistake to make if you want to win anything in the mids, nevermind take back the Presidency should all this come to naught.
Guess what this thread DEFINITELY isn't about?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
There's no question that Trump is completely within his rights to pardon Cohen. But Cohen is very, very dirty. So there's really no possible interpretation of that pardon which is not a flagrant abuse of power for personal gain. Would that be enough for an impeachment, I don't know, but it's a huge risk especially going into the midterms.
Trump isn’t aware enough to have the ability to calculate that kind of election calculus.
this is a giant mistake to make if you want to win anything in the mids, nevermind take back the Presidency should all this come to naught.
While I get the notion it doesn't strike me as Mueller's style unless he wants it to send a message. It would help undermine "they found nothing" attack but could reinforce the stupid "witch hunt" narrative. So far Mueller seems to have avoided coming close to the political arena.
Mueller isn't involved aside from the initial evidence candygram. This is all SDNY.
Huh. That's a good point.
IIRC isn't this the guy that Trump appointed to replace Preet? That makes this....fraught. I can see that office not having much love for Trump.
No, that guy recused himself over his huge Trump support and contributions.
Yep. Plz see sig link.
Shits complicated
It feels very meta for you to say "see sig link", SiG.
While I get the notion it doesn't strike me as Mueller's style unless he wants it to send a message. It would help undermine "they found nothing" attack but could reinforce the stupid "witch hunt" narrative. So far Mueller seems to have avoided coming close to the political arena.
Mueller isn't involved aside from the initial evidence candygram. This is all SDNY.
Huh. That's a good point.
IIRC isn't this the guy that Trump appointed to replace Preet? That makes this....fraught. I can see that office not having much love for Trump.
No, that guy recused himself over his huge Trump support and contributions.
Yep. Plz see sig link.
Shits complicated
It feels very meta for you to say "see sig link", SiG.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
Like many large firms, getting in bed with the devil is likely nothing new for McDermott. The devil usually pays, after all. The likeliest reason is that he just stopped paying them. Partner rates at BigLaw firms can easily top $1k/hr, and the fleet of associates and paralegals billing under them don’t get lower than $250 (and that’s for the paralegal). Going through all those documents to flag privileged items by the deadline easily allows the firm to bill Cohen in the millions just for that, and the son of a bitch hasn’t even been charged yet.
Popehat RT'd someone speculating that it could easily be 100k/day if they actually had a dozen lawyers working around the clock, or whatever Cohen's lawyer said.
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
Like many large firms, getting in bed with the devil is likely nothing new for McDermott. The devil usually pays, after all. The likeliest reason is that he just stopped paying them. Partner rates at BigLaw firms can easily top $1k/hr, and the fleet of associates and paralegals billing under them don’t get lower than $250 (and that’s for the paralegal). Going through all those documents to flag privileged items by the deadline easily allows the firm to bill Cohen in the millions just for that, and the son of a bitch hasn’t even been charged yet.
Popehat RT'd someone speculating that it could easily be 100k/day if they actually had a dozen lawyers working around the clock, or whatever Cohen's lawyer said.
End of year collections is going to be fun for those legal assistants
I guess Giuliani stated that Cohen would not flip recently? Yesterday? It was a blurb on a local morning news show.
Either way, if Giuliani said Cohen wouldn't flip them that probably means you should bet the farm that it will happen since Giuliani never knows anything.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
Reminder: Bush II commuted Libby's sentence and the theory was that was because the administration didn't want him to be able to be compelled to testify if the succeeding administration decided to investigate and prosecute.
Thought, at no point did anybody really argue that Libby didn't do it.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.
How do you pardon someone who didn't commit a crime? Which is what innocence entails.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.
How do you pardon someone who didn't commit a crime? Which is what innocence entails.
"So and so is forgiven for any part they played in in the following acts: Crime A, B, C."
It doesn't need to acknowledge guilt, merely what they stand (or may yet stand) accused of.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.
How do you pardon someone who didn't commit a crime? Which is what innocence entails.
The same way you convict someone who didn't commit a crime, a thing that happens with disturbing frequency in the US, and for which in many cases a pardon or similar executive intervention is the only recourse thanks in part to Justice "innocence is not a compelling argument" Scalia.
Usually this facet of a pardon doesn't matter - Arpaio made some noise about it but it ultimately didn't mean anything except media narrative. Things change with a conspiracy, though, because regardless of the innocence aspect, a pardon is basically an immunity deal to the recipient, they can't go to jail but also no longer have 5th amendment protection. Which in turn spells major trouble for unpardoned conspirators.
The biggest obstacle to Trump pardoning Cohen is that doing so would make Trump look bad.
He’s probably weighing in his head a little every day whether letting it continue or issuing the pardon will make him look worse.
I rather doubt Trump's thinking about pardons in any sense other than "how powerful and decisive will this make me look when I grant it?"
About the only thing he thinks could possibly make him look bad is people questioning his wealth. Or maybe the Canadian PM.
I mean, if Trump starts pardoning Manafort, Cohen, Flynn, and others we should really have a million people marching on Washington demanding his resignation. But I doubt he anticipates or cares about that even if it does happen.
Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether Michael Cohen, the longtime personal lawyer for Donald Trump, illegally engaged in secret lobbying, people familiar with the investigation said, as part of the government’s broader probe into Mr. Cohen’s business dealings.
In the course of that investigation, the prosecutors have contacted companies that hired Mr. Cohen as a consultant after Mr. Trump won the 2016 presidential election, including AT&T Inc. and Novartis AG , according to other people familiar with the matter. The companies paid a total of about $1.8 million to Mr. Cohen in 2017 and early 2018 for his insights into the Trump administration.
The biggest obstacle to Trump pardoning Cohen is that doing so would make Trump look bad.
He’s probably weighing in his head a little every day whether letting it continue or issuing the pardon will make him look worse.
I rather doubt Trump's thinking about pardons in any sense other than "how powerful and decisive will this make me look when I grant it?"
About the only thing he thinks could possibly make him look bad is people questioning his wealth. Or maybe the Canadian PM.
I don't buy that, what possible reason does he have not to pardon Cohen ASAP unless he's worried about the consequences of doing so?
He personally doesn't give a fuck about Cohen and thinks he's untouchable anyway? Like arrogance is not in short supply with the Trump admin, and he's regarded Cohen like most of us do that dried white stuff that gathers at the corners of your mouth when your thirsty.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The biggest obstacle to Trump pardoning Cohen is that doing so would make Trump look bad.
He’s probably weighing in his head a little every day whether letting it continue or issuing the pardon will make him look worse.
I rather doubt Trump's thinking about pardons in any sense other than "how powerful and decisive will this make me look when I grant it?"
About the only thing he thinks could possibly make him look bad is people questioning his wealth. Or maybe the Canadian PM.
I don't buy that, what possible reason does he have not to pardon Cohen ASAP unless he's worried about the consequences of doing so?
Because he doesn't think he has to, because he is Trump and has no flaws, so there's NO POSSIBLE WAY anything that happens with Cohen actually matters to him.
Trump will need to actually scared of consequences, instead of just being mad about this situation marring his perfect visage, before he bothers to deal with Cohen.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
The biggest obstacle to Trump pardoning Cohen is that doing so would make Trump look bad.
He’s probably weighing in his head a little every day whether letting it continue or issuing the pardon will make him look worse.
I rather doubt Trump's thinking about pardons in any sense other than "how powerful and decisive will this make me look when I grant it?"
About the only thing he thinks could possibly make him look bad is people questioning his wealth. Or maybe the Canadian PM.
I mean, if Trump starts pardoning Manafort, Cohen, Flynn, and others we should really have a million people marching on Washington demanding his resignation. But I doubt he anticipates or cares about that even if it does happen.
It'll be like 200,000 and Republican politicians will be mildly irked at the traffic disruption. They have learned to ignore angry liberals.
Honestly, if I were a state or local entity that had enough grounds to file charges against Cohen. I would be doing so and not relying on the feds. It's not that I don't trust the feds, I'm just worried someone will be able to talk Trump into issuing a pardon and keep him focuses long enough to make it happen. Even though Trump really doesn't give a shit about Cohen. Also it might not be that hard to convince Trump to pardon, if the the person knows what dirt Cohen has on Trump and it's dirt Trump really doesn't want getting out there (Trump is a callous, narcissistic idiot, so I could totally see him forgetting which people know things that he really wants to keep a lid on).
He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
But Burdick was about a different issue: the ability to turn down a pardon. The language about imputing and confessing guilt was just an aside — what lawyers call dicta. The court meant that, as a practical matter, because pardons make people look guilty, a recipient might not want to accept one. But pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.
MR. CHIEF JUSTICE MARSHALL delivered the opinion of the Court.
...
A pardon is an act of grace, proceeding from the power entrusted with the execution of the laws, which exempts the individual on whom it is bestowed from the punishment the law inflicts for a crime he has committed. It is the private, though official, act of the executive magistrate, delivered to the individual for whose benefit it is intended, and not communicated officially to the court. It is a constituent part of the judicial system that the judge sees only with judicial eyes, and knows nothing respecting any particular case of which he is not informed judicially. A private deed, not communicated to him, whatever may be its character, whether a pardon or release, is totally unknown and cannot be acted on. The looseness which would be introduced into judicial proceedings would prove fatal to the great principles of justice if the judge might notice and act upon facts not brought regularly into the cause. Such a proceeding, in ordinary cases, would subvert the best established principles and overturn those rules which have been settled by the wisdom of ages.
...
As the power has been exercised from time immemorial by the executive of that nation whose language is our language, and to whose judicial institutions ours bear a close resemblance, we adopt their principles respecting the operation and effect of a pardon, and look into their books for the rules prescribing the manner in which it is to be used by the person who would avail himself of it.
...
"He who pleads such a pardon must produce it sub pede sigilli, though it be a plea in bar, because it is presumed to be in his custody, and the property of it belongs to him."
Comyn, in his Digest, tit. Pardon, H, says, "if a man has a charter of pardon from the King, he ought to plead it in bar of the indictment, and if he pleads not guilty, he waives his pardon." The same law is laid down in Bacon's Abridgment title Pardon, and is confirmed by the cases these authors quote.
As well as Commonwealth (Mass) vs Lockwood which also made common law citations to demonstrate the difference between conviction and punishment
Mr. Dane, who was admitted to the bar before the adoption of the Constitution, and was peculiarly learned in the law of his time, says: "A man is convict by verdict, but not attainted before judgment." "Pardon is another special plea in bar." "By pleading a pardon in arrest of judgment, there is an advantage, as it stops the corruption of blood, by preventing the attainder." "Conviction is on confession or verdict." 6 Dane Ab. 534, 536. See also 7 Dane Ab. 339, 340.
In Commonwealth v. Richards, 17 Pick. 295 , it was held that an appeal allowed by statute from the court of common pleas in a criminal case, to be claimed at "the court before which such conviction shall be had," must be claimed before the end of the term at which the verdict was returned; and Chief Justice Shaw, in delivering the opinion of the court, said: "It has generally been considered, we believe, that, as the sentence is the final act in a criminal proceeding, it constitutes the judgment, and it is only from final judgments that appeals are to be taken. But though such is the general rule of law, we think it has been changed by this statute, and that the statute itself has made a distinction between a conviction and a judgment. In general, the legal meaning of 'conviction' is, that legal proceeding of record, which ascertains the guilt of the party, and upon which the sentence or judgment is founded, as a verdict, a plea of guilty, an outlawry, and the like." See also Commonwealth v. Andrews, 2 Mass. 409 , and 3 Mass. 126 , 131, 133.
and then bluntly states
It was argued for the Commonwealth that the defendant could not be said to be convicted at the time when this pardon was granted, because a bill of exceptions was then pending in this court to the rulings under which he had been found guilty, and that after pleading the pardon he might still prosecute his exceptions, and, if they should be sustained, have the verdict set aside. But it is within the election of the defendant whether he will avail himself of a pardon from the executive (be the pardon absolute or conditional); if he does not plead the pardon at the first opportunity, he waives all benefit of the pardon; if he does so plead it, he waives all other grounds of defence. Staunf. P. C. 150. J. Kel. 25. 4 Bl. Com. 402. United States v. Wilson, 7 Pet. 150.
In Burdick this citation was met with
The whole discussion of the learned justice will repay a reference. He cites and re- [236 U.S. 79, 92] views the cases with the same accurate and masterful consideration that distinguished all of his judicial work, and the proposition declared was one of the conclusions deduced.
This culminates with
This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it. The former has no such imputation or confession. It is tantamount to the silence of the witness. It is noncommittal. It is the unobtrusive act of the law given protection against a sinister use of his testimony, not like a pardon, requiring him to confess his guilt in order to avoid a conviction of it.
I don't see how that is at all ambiguous or dicta. Its part of the fundamental holding. A pardon acts in lieu of a conviction and either absolutely or conditionally modifies or eliminates the punishment. Thus it must be accepted to take effect. A commutation, in contrast, is only applicable after conviction which is why it does not need to be accepted.
But the granting of a pardon is in no sense an overturning of a judgment of conviction by some other tribunal; it is "[a]n executive action that mitigates or sets aside punishment for a crime."
You can't set aside punishment for a non-existent conviction. When you accept a pardon you accept the conviction. The SCOTUS has found a pardoned offense is still valid to be used in a trial for someone to be a repeat offender or otherwise act with the recognition of conviction.
So if Trump pardons Cohen can Mueller use that pardon to compel him to testify about the crimes which he was pardon for? Get him to talk about the specifics and co-conspirators?
And can Trump issue a general pardon or does he have to specify which crimes he is actually pardoning?
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In a sane world, it would be.
That would almost certainly fit the definition of bribery, and that is one of the few things explicitly listed in the Constitution as an impeachable offense.
They would also likely be liable for civil court action by a ton of people even if they were given blanket pardons for any and all previous crimes. Plus the state charges that could be brought. Many prosecutors would love to make a name for themselves tackling that kind of corruption.
- Cohen tells people privately he might get arrested soon
- speculation then confirmation that his defense team is leaving him
- prosecution preparing paperwork to arrest Cohen
Edit - Bonus points on Cohen being a loudmouth blowhard tough guy.
or maybe he just stopped paying them, who knows
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It can also be a sign that he's prepared to cooperate - there was at one other case in this extended debacle where a defendant seemed to mysteriously drop his lawyers then show up with a new one shortly later, and looking at the new one's case history it was full of big time plea deals, many of which seemed to have worked out quite well for his clients. There are lawyers who specialize in brokering deals rather than litigating a defense.
Trump isn’t aware enough to have the ability to calculate that kind of election calculus.
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Like many large firms, getting in bed with the devil is likely nothing new for McDermott. The devil usually pays, after all. The likeliest reason is that he just stopped paying them. Partner rates at BigLaw firms can easily top $1k/hr, and the fleet of associates and paralegals billing under them don’t get lower than $250 (and that’s for the paralegal). Going through all those documents to flag privileged items by the deadline easily allows the firm to bill Cohen in the millions just for that, and the son of a bitch hasn’t even been charged yet.
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this is a giant mistake to make if you want to win anything in the mids, nevermind take back the Presidency should all this come to naught.
Guess what this thread DEFINITELY isn't about?
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He can't pardon non-federal crimes and I think Cohen would be in hot water with a state run by a governor that won't mirror Trump's abuse of the pardon power. I'm sure taking the pardon would probably destroy his career in law because I could see just about every bar using that as a massive red mark against him. Problem, is I'm not sure he cares about that enough; especially, since his legal career is likely done now. Flipping on Trump probably dooms it, since that would also be him admitting he was doing tons of illegal shit, while trying to cover it up with his law practice..
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Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
He’s probably weighing in his head a little every day whether letting it continue or issuing the pardon will make him look worse.
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If Cohen is pardoned, he must admit to the underlying crime and has no 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. A state government could also potentially prosecute as a consequence. There are double jeopardy concerns but there's at least some movement in NY to close those. Schneiderman called for them to be closed before his abuses were revealed and now Acting AG Underwood is.
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Popehat RT'd someone speculating that it could easily be 100k/day if they actually had a dozen lawyers working around the clock, or whatever Cohen's lawyer said.
End of year collections is going to be fun for those legal assistants
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Either way, if Giuliani said Cohen wouldn't flip them that probably means you should bet the farm that it will happen since Giuliani never knows anything.
IANAL but I believe he doesn't have to admit to the underlying crime. 5th amendment protection is indeed waived but it's because there is no longer a threat of prosecution thus no risk of self-incrimination if one testifies. Cohen can be compelled to testify on events he was pardoned for but he doesn't have to admit to wrongdoing.
Which brings us back to the preemptive pardon being the ultimate gaping loophole in Presidential power. A pardoned witness can be brought to testify but they can always lie (commit perjury) to protect the president and then get pardoned for that too.
SCOTUS has held the accepting a pardon is admission of guilt.
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Thought, at no point did anybody really argue that Libby didn't do it.
Not what I've read.
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I rather doubt Trump's thinking about pardons in any sense other than "how powerful and decisive will this make me look when I grant it?"
About the only thing he thinks could possibly make him look bad is people questioning his wealth. Or maybe the Canadian PM.
How do you pardon someone who didn't commit a crime? Which is what innocence entails.
"So and so is forgiven for any part they played in in the following acts: Crime A, B, C."
It doesn't need to acknowledge guilt, merely what they stand (or may yet stand) accused of.
The same way you convict someone who didn't commit a crime, a thing that happens with disturbing frequency in the US, and for which in many cases a pardon or similar executive intervention is the only recourse thanks in part to Justice "innocence is not a compelling argument" Scalia.
Usually this facet of a pardon doesn't matter - Arpaio made some noise about it but it ultimately didn't mean anything except media narrative. Things change with a conspiracy, though, because regardless of the innocence aspect, a pardon is basically an immunity deal to the recipient, they can't go to jail but also no longer have 5th amendment protection. Which in turn spells major trouble for unpardoned conspirators.
I mean, if Trump starts pardoning Manafort, Cohen, Flynn, and others we should really have a million people marching on Washington demanding his resignation. But I doubt he anticipates or cares about that even if it does happen.
This day has really delivered on all fronts, huh?
I don't buy that, what possible reason does he have not to pardon Cohen ASAP unless he's worried about the consequences of doing so?
He personally doesn't give a fuck about Cohen and thinks he's untouchable anyway? Like arrogance is not in short supply with the Trump admin, and he's regarded Cohen like most of us do that dried white stuff that gathers at the corners of your mouth when your thirsty.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Because he doesn't think he has to, because he is Trump and has no flaws, so there's NO POSSIBLE WAY anything that happens with Cohen actually matters to him.
Trump will need to actually scared of consequences, instead of just being mad about this situation marring his perfect visage, before he bothers to deal with Cohen.
He believes he can pardon himself and no one is positive he's wrong.
He's only going to wait as long as it takes for him to get frustrated with the people telling him not to do it.
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It'll be like 200,000 and Republican politicians will be mildly irked at the traffic disruption. They have learned to ignore angry liberals.
Basically this
That seems to ignore that they were citing US vs Wilson (1833) As well as Commonwealth (Mass) vs Lockwood which also made common law citations to demonstrate the difference between conviction and punishment
and then bluntly states
In Burdick this citation was met with
This culminates with
I don't see how that is at all ambiguous or dicta. Its part of the fundamental holding. A pardon acts in lieu of a conviction and either absolutely or conditionally modifies or eliminates the punishment. Thus it must be accepted to take effect. A commutation, in contrast, is only applicable after conviction which is why it does not need to be accepted.
US v Nixon (1993) said similar
You can't set aside punishment for a non-existent conviction. When you accept a pardon you accept the conviction. The SCOTUS has found a pardoned offense is still valid to be used in a trial for someone to be a repeat offender or otherwise act with the recognition of conviction.
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And can Trump issue a general pardon or does he have to specify which crimes he is actually pardoning?