... Huge bug on the beholder boss in the MDI for kjell's angels with the laser not bouncing, and the casters are just saying it was a misplay. The casters are such a joke, they don't even know the mechanics. No remake or anything.
... Huge bug on the beholder boss in the MDI for kjell's angels with the laser not bouncing, and the casters are just saying it was a misplay. The casters are such a joke, they don't even know the mechanics. No remake or anything.
edit: at least they still won that map
Seems unlikely that they didn't catch the bug since KJA turned the mirror several times and it never activated, are you allowed to call out a bug during a stream as a caster on these things or does that put you on the blizzard naughty list?
Well there have been bugs before which has resulted in both teams restarting the map, so acknowledging bugs isn't unheard of. Was just really weird how they just kept going and no one says anything. Now they are analyzing the run, but it wouldn't have even been close had they not had to restart that boss.
Overarching story bfa looks stupid. But the smaller zone/faction stories look cool. Most of the content looks really good. Like I think I read island expeditions have around 28 battle pets to collect. Warfronts look cool. New dungeons are always welcome. As far as stuff to do goes, bfa is looking really good.
Here's the deal folks. WoW PvP is shit and has always been shit because they picked the worst fucking setup for it.
Classes and specs are fine. Opens some variety and access, but it does make it harder to balance so that people feel things are reasonably and fun. What isn't fine for PvP design is to add in additional variables onto a reasonable design and taking it into an unreasonable direction.
Variables like levels, to the point where someone on a contested server walks into a contested zone for the very first time, that's still low in levels and gets one shot by some fucking asshole. Yeah, we could all say that "well world PvP in that context is bullshit," but even in the BGs, when you're aren't at max lvl you get cases where lower level players are at an automated disadvantage because because they have to face higher level players. For the lower level player, it's not fun because they do hold their team back because by RPG design, they are weaker. It's not fun for the higher level player that wants a challenge because RPG design means the scenario is much less challenge and if they aren't a douchebag, they aren't going to look for novel ways to make it more challenge because that fucks their own team over and may be perceived as toying with weaker opponents. A game that actually put real thought into PvP would at least go with a setup where level is irrelevant. Pop into a BG for 20-30 players, doesn't matter because everyone in there is given the same stat templates (ex. all outlaw rogues have the same agi, stam, armor, crit, mastery, haste and versatility and whatever else they have) and access to the same skills (again those outlaw rogues all have the same moves and talents), where everyone is on the same playing field and it comes down to skill and team work.
Gear is another big one and probably one of the biggest reasons that I feel RPG setups are fucking shit for PvP; especially, if the game relies on RNG to limit really powerful items. Like it's absolutely shit for a good player to find themselves in a situation where a really shit player just destroys them because that shitty player got really lucky and got the most powerful items, while the more skilled player got shat upon by RNG in terms of drops. Though to make this worse, WoW has had several cases where if you wanted to be good at PvP, you had to be in a raiding guild to get the best PvP items (as an aside, I always laugh at the fucking stupidity where PvPers and PvEers do epeen waving on which is harder, the answer is neither because each aspect requires different approaches and gameplay skills). A game that didn't tack PvP on as an after thought would at least make sure the best gear in PvP was earned by PvPing and probably wouldn't make it random drop because it really should be about skill and any RNG should be limited to crits or ability procs that were expected for PvP. I'm bearing in mind that WoW came out before someone say "Hey, we can do the whole leveling thing for PvP in a way that doesn't impact character power," like how they do it for Overwatch or hell go with something like how MOBAs work, start of the match or BG everyone starts at the same level and their action from there net them additional levels. Essentially, try to go with a system that makes an attempt to make sure people are on an even footing as possible (I'm well aware perfect isn't going to happen for a variety of reasons).
Then there was the fact that it took the playerbase over a fucking decade to get Blizz to agree with the idea of "Hey, there really should be some differences between PvP and PvE." For the longest time they dragged their feet on that once they implemented DR because they felt "different rule sets will confuse the players." A game taking a series stab at PvP wouldn't have let that excuse fly and would have made absolutely sure that PvP and PvE balance didn't step on each others toes. Then there is a whole racial ability thing and I'd argue and team that put more thought that Blizz did in the competitive scene, would have disabled all racials for both ranked PvE and PvP because why the would you want to deal with more variables that are going to make things really hard; especially, if you wanted race to be a choice.
Look, I get some of you loved PvP and still do. I also know that PvP was part of the game from the start, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tacked on as an afterthought. Just the shear number of fuckups with PvP designs tells me the most thought the devs first put into PvP, was "we want PvP in this game," unfortunately, that's all they did early on and it's be a mix of them being forced to correct imbalanced ans occasionally liking some of the player suggestions for making PvP better ever since. I'd also argue it ain't going to improve, when plenty of players get offended by the idea the people point out it was shit design in the beginning and continue to essential give Blizz a free pass.
What if I told you some pvp games are deliberately designed to be unfair and messy?
Coolcoolcool. Where are the posts from Blizzard stating they want this to contradict the many, many Blueposts discussing how they want a balanced and good PvP scene?
What if I told you some pvp games are deliberately designed to be unfair and messy?
Coolcoolcool. Where are the posts from Blizzard stating they want this to contradict the many, many Blueposts discussing how they want a balanced and good PvP scene?
Yeah because Blizzard always follows through on and actually tries to do everything they say...
I mean they say they want the player to feel powerful and yet we have bfa shaman. What blizzard wants is a game that people talk about and builds its own community so they can continue making money. PvP is never going to be balanced because their mainly supported mode (3v3 arena) is fucking retarded to watch during their tournaments if all the games go to 80% dampening. So they keep priest mage rogue the top team because it's flashy and can end games, rather than something like unholy, aff, healer. Their viewer numbers would get annihilated if that was the team everyone played in arena. Unfortunately, they only balance things for arena. See current Veng DH in RBGs as proof they don't give a fuck about that, when they actually nerfed the damage/cc capabilities of other tanks because they were good in arena.
They gave up on balancing world pvp like half way through TBC. It was just randomly good at various points because of how everything was tuned in a given patch. Currently it sucks donkey balls. Leggos is probably the biggest reason it is terrible on top of other gear scaling issues. MoP world pvp was pretty fun, Wod was iffy depending on the patch, cata was just a shit expansion anyway and i only played like 2 months, wotlk was a train wreck balance-wise. TBC was actually really balanced right at launch before people were stratified with resilience gear and flying, and then again at the end when everyone easily had full resilience gear. Vanilla was literally the only time that they had to balance world pvp because it was the main vector most people experienced pvp. But there were also a lot of consumables and crafted gear (engineering) that could really balance things out if someone wanted to make the effort.
I think expecting some kind of perfect vacuum balance is a fantasy with so many moving parts in wow. They can't even balance arena which they make a small effort to be balanced. Forget world pvp where you have to start taking into account terrain, available consumables/toys, random people running by, npcs. If you want some kind of sanitized pvp wow is not the place to look for it, i would try chess, because that's about the only place you'll find it.
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
What if I told you some pvp games are deliberately designed to be unfair and messy?
Coolcoolcool. Where are the posts from Blizzard stating they want this to contradict the many, many Blueposts discussing how they want a balanced and good PvP scene?
Yeah because Blizzard always follows through on and actually tries to do everything they say...
I mean they say they want the player to feel powerful and yet we have bfa shaman. What blizzard wants is a game that people talk about and builds its own community so they can continue making money. PvP is never going to be balanced because their mainly supported mode (3v3 arena) is fucking retarded to watch during their tournaments if all the games go to 80% dampening. So they keep priest mage rogue the top team because it's flashy and can end games, rather than something like unholy, aff, healer. Their viewer numbers would get annihilated if that was the team everyone played in arena. Unfortunately, they only balance things for arena. See current Veng DH in RBGs as proof they don't give a fuck about that, when they actually nerfed the damage/cc capabilities of other tanks because they were good in arena.
They gave up on balancing world pvp like half way through TBC. It was just randomly good at various points because of how everything was tuned in a given patch. Currently it sucks donkey balls. Leggos is probably the biggest reason it is terrible on top of other gear scaling issues. MoP world pvp was pretty fun, Wod was iffy depending on the patch, cata was just a shit expansion anyway and i only played like 2 months, wotlk was a train wreck balance-wise. TBC was actually really balanced right at launch before people were stratified with resilience gear and flying, and then again at the end when everyone easily had full resilience gear. Vanilla was literally the only time that they had to balance world pvp because it was the main vector most people experienced pvp. But there were also a lot of consumables and crafted gear (engineering) that could really balance things out if someone wanted to make the effort.
I think expecting some kind of perfect vacuum balance is a fantasy with so many moving parts in wow. They can't even balance arena which they make a small effort to be balanced. Forget world pvp where you have to start taking into account terrain, available consumables/toys, random people running by, npcs. If you want some kind of sanitized pvp wow is not the place to look for it, i would try chess, because that's about the only place you'll find it.
I mean regardless of whether they successfully execute I just don't think Blizzard's design goal is for PvP in WoW to be unfair and messy.
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
Going from fresh 60 to geared 60, fresh 70 to geared 70, etc.... fresh 120 to geared 120, we always gain about 30% crit, and similarly for other stats. If they didn't bring us back down to near 0 each time through the leveling process, we'd be at 8*30=240% crit (and similar for other stats) as BfA geared. What does that even mean? All spells are instacast because everyone has enough haste to make it so? Nobody takes any dmg from any mob because their armor is infinite?
Honestly we stopped needing extra levels a long fucking time ago. having to do 5-10 levels every expansion is such a waste of time because the content usually doesnt matter and is completely forgotten. Doesnt help that they decide to just conjure up land masses all the time too so there are like double the number of zones as in vanilla and 90% of them are completely devoid of player activity.
Here's the deal folks. WoW PvP is shit and has always been shit because they picked the worst fucking setup for it.
Classes and specs are fine. Opens some variety and access, but it does make it harder to balance so that people feel things are reasonably and fun. What isn't fine for PvP design is to add in additional variables onto a reasonable design and taking it into an unreasonable direction.
Variables like levels, to the point where someone on a contested server walks into a contested zone for the very first time, that's still low in levels and gets one shot by some fucking asshole. Yeah, we could all say that "well world PvP in that context is bullshit," but even in the BGs, when you're aren't at max lvl you get cases where lower level players are at an automated disadvantage because because they have to face higher level players. For the lower level player, it's not fun because they do hold their team back because by RPG design, they are weaker. It's not fun for the higher level player that wants a challenge because RPG design means the scenario is much less challenge and if they aren't a douchebag, they aren't going to look for novel ways to make it more challenge because that fucks their own team over and may be perceived as toying with weaker opponents. A game that actually put real thought into PvP would at least go with a setup where level is irrelevant. Pop into a BG for 20-30 players, doesn't matter because everyone in there is given the same stat templates (ex. all outlaw rogues have the same agi, stam, armor, crit, mastery, haste and versatility and whatever else they have) and access to the same skills (again those outlaw rogues all have the same moves and talents), where everyone is on the same playing field and it comes down to skill and team work.
Gear is another big one and probably one of the biggest reasons that I feel RPG setups are fucking shit for PvP; especially, if the game relies on RNG to limit really powerful items. Like it's absolutely shit for a good player to find themselves in a situation where a really shit player just destroys them because that shitty player got really lucky and got the most powerful items, while the more skilled player got shat upon by RNG in terms of drops. Though to make this worse, WoW has had several cases where if you wanted to be good at PvP, you had to be in a raiding guild to get the best PvP items (as an aside, I always laugh at the fucking stupidity where PvPers and PvEers do epeen waving on which is harder, the answer is neither because each aspect requires different approaches and gameplay skills). A game that didn't tack PvP on as an after thought would at least make sure the best gear in PvP was earned by PvPing and probably wouldn't make it random drop because it really should be about skill and any RNG should be limited to crits or ability procs that were expected for PvP. I'm bearing in mind that WoW came out before someone say "Hey, we can do the whole leveling thing for PvP in a way that doesn't impact character power," like how they do it for Overwatch or hell go with something like how MOBAs work, start of the match or BG everyone starts at the same level and their action from there net them additional levels. Essentially, try to go with a system that makes an attempt to make sure people are on an even footing as possible (I'm well aware perfect isn't going to happen for a variety of reasons).
Then there was the fact that it took the playerbase over a fucking decade to get Blizz to agree with the idea of "Hey, there really should be some differences between PvP and PvE." For the longest time they dragged their feet on that once they implemented DR because they felt "different rule sets will confuse the players." A game taking a series stab at PvP wouldn't have let that excuse fly and would have made absolutely sure that PvP and PvE balance didn't step on each others toes. Then there is a whole racial ability thing and I'd argue and team that put more thought that Blizz did in the competitive scene, would have disabled all racials for both ranked PvE and PvP because why the would you want to deal with more variables that are going to make things really hard; especially, if you wanted race to be a choice.
Look, I get some of you loved PvP and still do. I also know that PvP was part of the game from the start, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tacked on as an afterthought. Just the shear number of fuckups with PvP designs tells me the most thought the devs first put into PvP, was "we want PvP in this game," unfortunately, that's all they did early on and it's be a mix of them being forced to correct imbalanced ans occasionally liking some of the player suggestions for making PvP better ever since. I'd also argue it ain't going to improve, when plenty of players get offended by the idea the people point out it was shit design in the beginning and continue to essential give Blizz a free pass.
It WAS NOT TACKED ON and an AFTERTHOUGHT.
You can make any other valid points, but this was made blatantly obvious to anyone who followed the game then, and in many, many interviews after the fact.
You cannot make that assumption based entirely on your opinion of how good of a job they did.
They did a piss poor ass job of designing talent trees and gearing back then too. Does that mean the entire game was an afterthought? No, it means this might just have been the first MMO they ever made, and they had the ambitious goal of making good PVP and did a poor job of it at the time. And still, it was playable and loved by many. You are free to not have felt that way. Stop trying to say others were wrong for feeling like it, and even worse rewrite history, just because you feel THAT STRONGLY against it.
Bad or not, WoW was made with PVP in mind and they were going to put it in there fail or not before the game even had a playable beta. This is not a free pass. It is a fucking fact. What you are saying, is not fact. No matter how strongly you dislike it and no matter how horrid it was designed.
+4
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
Going from fresh 60 to geared 60, fresh 70 to geared 70, etc.... fresh 120 to geared 120, we always gain about 30% crit, and similarly for other stats. If they didn't bring us back down to near 0 each time through the leveling process, we'd be at 8*30=240% crit (and similar for other stats) as BfA geared. What does that even mean? All spells are instacast because everyone has enough haste to make it so? Nobody takes any dmg from any mob because their armor is infinite?
I know that there has to be some way to curb player's power from expansion to expansion, but [infomercial] there has to be a better way [/infomercial].
I think that they realy underestimated how the combination of stat squish, mob scaling and lack of gaining anything during leveling will effect the feel of the gameplay.
What prompted my rant was that, at max level, I got a mining quest which sent me back to zone I had already cleared, let's say, 5 levels ago. A zone designed to have such a high density of mobs that it's impossible to pull them one by one, but back at level 115 pulling extra pack or two was no big deal. Pop wings, pop a shield, and it's manageable.
At level 120 it felt like the mobs leveled up instead of my characters and I was getting killed every other pack because, like I said, at this stage having 3 mobs on you is a death sentence unless you happen to run across a friendly lower level player willing to help you out.
I find it ironic that this is the expansion they decided to remove First Aid because this is the first time in many years where I actually had to stop after every battle and heal up.
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+1
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Its also not like Blizzard is incapible of making good pvp experiences, Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm are fantastic. An MMO is just a tough place to design pvp and literally every community for MMOs ive been part of have had these same sort of complaints.
WoW is a really fun game, and on some classes I play I find world and instanced pvp a lot of fun. I doubt it ever will be perfectly balanced, but for a semi casual player it has felt more balanced over time rather than less.
The kinds of folks who wander into PvP in MMOs tend to just be the worst.
I think part of it is the types of skills gaps people have on top versus the entire point of overwatch is to play the game. There's far more bots in WoW and shit because PvP is often a means to an end for a few people.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
Its also not like Blizzard is incapible of making good pvp experiences, Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm are fantastic. An MMO is just a tough place to design pvp and literally every community for MMOs ive been part of have had these same sort of complaints.
WoW is a really fun game, and on some classes I play I find world and instanced pvp a lot of fun. I doubt it ever will be perfectly balanced, but for a semi casual player it has felt more balanced over time rather than less.
Almost every other MMO that I've bounced around to has fallen apart the same way, both wildstar and swtor fell apart when they stopped developing pvp so they could work on their raids. Guild wars 2 was kind of the same as well with them definitely moving to focus on adding the fractal dungeons and after the expansion they moved towards adding raids. Meanwhile very little was done to wvw and their version of battlegrounds was never really updated after launch.
Comparing the an mmo to hots or overwatch is kind of disingenuous. First off hots only has like 5 buttons per character and it's still a steaming pile of unbalanced bullshit. You could probably add up all the abilities of characters in overwatch and it'd be about the same number of buttons as a druid or warlock had on their bars in vanilla. It's an fps which is point and click with maybe 1-2 abilities. Balanced is probably not the best way to describe overwatch either when you play quickmatch, which would be the equivalent of BGs in wow.
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
There were several fights that had mechanics other than hitbar to zero. Of course, in retrospect they were very boring compared to fights of today. Of course, the fights of today are just different plays on "don't stand in the void zone" or "stand in this one specific void zone" so it's not really too crazy anyways.
You can still PvP for transmog. There are items that are locked behind it my dude.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
Its also not like Blizzard is incapible of making good pvp experiences, Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm are fantastic. An MMO is just a tough place to design pvp and literally every community for MMOs ive been part of have had these same sort of complaints.
WoW is a really fun game, and on some classes I play I find world and instanced pvp a lot of fun. I doubt it ever will be perfectly balanced, but for a semi casual player it has felt more balanced over time rather than less.
Almost every other MMO that I've bounced around to has fallen apart the same way, both wildstar and swtor fell apart when they stopped developing pvp so they could work on their raids. Guild wars 2 was kind of the same as well with them definitely moving to focus on adding the fractal dungeons and after the expansion they moved towards adding raids. Meanwhile very little was done to wvw and their version of battlegrounds was never really updated after launch.
Comparing the an mmo to hots or overwatch is kind of disingenuous. First off hots only has like 5 buttons per character and it's still a steaming pile of unbalanced bullshit. You could probably add up all the abilities of characters in overwatch and it'd be about the same number of buttons as a druid or warlock had on their bars in vanilla. It's an fps which is point and click with maybe 1-2 abilities. Balanced is probably not the best way to describe overwatch either when you play quickmatch, which would be the equivalent of BGs in wow.
Couple of things:
WoW isn't a failing game, and its pvp is getting better, not worse. So... not sure what the comparison to other games is about there.
Your arguments about HoTS and Overwatch is my point, Blizzard is perfectly capable of making great PvP first games, but the nature of an MMO (including the wide moveset) is what makes it hard to do. You are arguing for the sake of argument here.
Overwatch is fine. Unless you are at the most, top-tier competitive play its absolutely fine and balanced for people playing. If you ~are~ at that level, you clearly still love the game enough to spend hundreds of hours of time on it so lol?
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
There were several fights that had mechanics other than hitbar to zero. Of course, in retrospect they were very boring compared to fights of today. Of course, the fights of today are just different plays on "don't stand in the void zone" or "stand in this one specific void zone" so it's not really too crazy anyways.
You can still PvP for transmog. There are items that are locked behind it my dude.
If you thought PVP in vanilla was hit until hp zero then you clearly do not know enough about what it was actually like back then, but refuse to admit it. I did a ton of PVP and lots of dueling. There were so many intricacies to PVP that revolve around the same basis mentalities of a fighting game. There were actions and counters to those actions. I could fucking beat people in T2 in front of Org in nothing but half naked RP gear because I knew my shit. And I won't say I was the best either. It was because those people knew nothing about it. If there was one completely failed aspect of it (which is in all honesty an issue that is kind of hard to resolve) it is that there isn't super clear feedback as to why you will lose. Where in PVE there is. The thing is, PVE players dipping into PVP would be quick to just assume balance issues, never learn what happened OR how to deal with it, and claim it was shit. The issues they had with it might actually be the complete opposite of the issues ACTUALLY in need of balance. If there was anything wrong back then with how Blizz handled it, it was that they listened to PVE players complaints about PVP too much.
Also, how in the FUCK can you claim they "can clearly make good PVP gameplay" while citing games that came about after nearly 10 fucking plus YEARS of experience? That is like saying if I played Baseball in the minors for 10 years and then move up to the majors, that clearly I knew how to play baseball that whole time. No, it means I now am 10 fucking years wiser. That is actually new levels of goose logic.
Look, this argument is as pointless now as it always was. I think its good at least some of you will admit we like (or liked, at least) it and that is ok. Just admit as well that you might not have had the proper knowledge to really be supplying your opinions as fact and that anyone disagreeing is just blindly faithful. The hundreds of hours I put into it back then supplied me with enough knowledge that assuredly is much more than blind faith, I guarantee it.
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
That does not seem to unusual most expansions once you get to the last level of that expansion prior to getting dungeon/raid gear you tend to feel a bit weak and squishy because it tends to be balanced for higher ilevels that you soon will acquire.
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
There were several fights that had mechanics other than hitbar to zero. Of course, in retrospect they were very boring compared to fights of today. Of course, the fights of today are just different plays on "don't stand in the void zone" or "stand in this one specific void zone" so it's not really too crazy anyways.
You can still PvP for transmog. There are items that are locked behind it my dude.
If you thought PVP in vanilla was hit until hp zero then you clearly do not know enough about what it was actually like back then, but refuse to admit it. I did a ton of PVP and lots of dueling. There were so many intricacies to PVP that revolve around the same basis mentalities of a fighting game. There were actions and counters to those actions. I could fucking beat people in T2 in front of Org in nothing but half naked RP gear because I knew my shit. And I won't say I was the best either. It was because those people knew nothing about it. If there was one completely failed aspect of it (which is in all honesty an issue that is kind of hard to resolve) it is that there isn't super clear feedback as to why you will lose. Where in PVE there is. The thing is, PVE players dipping into PVP would be quick to just assume balance issues, never learn what happened OR how to deal with it, and claim it was shit. The issues they had with it might actually be the complete opposite of the issues ACTUALLY in need of balance. If there was anything wrong back then with how Blizz handled it, it was that they listened to PVE players complaints about PVP too much.
If a naked rogue can beat the best of geared people, it's not "because they're skilled", the game was broken. The human aspect of PvP wasn't by design, though. But this is why world PvP died out because eventually the broken parts outweighed the human element. Also the human element is more often than not trash, but 9 times out of 10 it's someone playing a cheesy class (naked rogue ganking or shockadin).
Also, how in the FUCK can you claim they "can clearly make good PVP gameplay" while citing games that came about after nearly 10 fucking plus YEARS of experience? That is like saying if I played Baseball in the minors for 10 years and then move up to the majors, that clearly I knew how to play baseball that whole time. No, it means I now am 10 fucking years wiser. That is actually new levels of goose logic.
I didn't make that claim.
Look, this argument is as pointless now as it always was. I think its good at least some of you will admit we like (or liked, at least) it and that is ok. Just admit as well that you might not have had the proper knowledge to really be supplying your opinions as fact and that anyone disagreeing is just blindly faithful. The hundreds of hours I put into it back then supplied me with enough knowledge that assuredly is much more than blind faith, I guarantee it.
I never said you couldn't like or, or shouldn't, just that admitting bad things as bad is hard to do for some reason. Like I said, I can eat pizza every day, and I would love every fucking minute of it. But it's still bad.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
PvP wasn't "tacked on in an afterthought" in such a way that "hey this wasn't available 8 weeks after launch" like raiding was. (yes I know that wasn't the exact time frame for raiding, chill)
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
There were several fights that had mechanics other than hitbar to zero. Of course, in retrospect they were very boring compared to fights of today. Of course, the fights of today are just different plays on "don't stand in the void zone" or "stand in this one specific void zone" so it's not really too crazy anyways.
You can still PvP for transmog. There are items that are locked behind it my dude.
If you thought PVP in vanilla was hit until hp zero then you clearly do not know enough about what it was actually like back then, but refuse to admit it. I did a ton of PVP and lots of dueling. There were so many intricacies to PVP that revolve around the same basis mentalities of a fighting game. There were actions and counters to those actions. I could fucking beat people in T2 in front of Org in nothing but half naked RP gear because I knew my shit. And I won't say I was the best either. It was because those people knew nothing about it. If there was one completely failed aspect of it (which is in all honesty an issue that is kind of hard to resolve) it is that there isn't super clear feedback as to why you will lose. Where in PVE there is. The thing is, PVE players dipping into PVP would be quick to just assume balance issues, never learn what happened OR how to deal with it, and claim it was shit. The issues they had with it might actually be the complete opposite of the issues ACTUALLY in need of balance. If there was anything wrong back then with how Blizz handled it, it was that they listened to PVE players complaints about PVP too much.
Also, how in the FUCK can you claim they "can clearly make good PVP gameplay" while citing games that came about after nearly 10 fucking plus YEARS of experience? That is like saying if I played Baseball in the minors for 10 years and then move up to the majors, that clearly I knew how to play baseball that whole time. No, it means I now am 10 fucking years wiser. That is actually new levels of goose logic.
Look, this argument is as pointless now as it always was. I think its good at least some of you will admit we like (or liked, at least) it and that is ok. Just admit as well that you might not have had the proper knowledge to really be supplying your opinions as fact and that anyone disagreeing is just blindly faithful. The hundreds of hours I put into it back then supplied me with enough knowledge that assuredly is much more than blind faith, I guarantee it.
So, I was the one making this claim, talking about the current environment. As WoW is in a 2 year cycle of refresh, talking about their experience over time seems relevant in discussing their progression in tinkering with the MMO PVP experience. I also like the current PvP and have liked WoW pvp in various capacities since launch. It's fine. It's enjoyable. It's good enough for an MMO, and I'm usually happy with each patch changes.
Also, dial it back a bit maybe? Not sure any of this is worth virtually shouting about.
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
That does not seem to unusual most expansions once you get to the last level of that expansion prior to getting dungeon/raid gear you tend to feel a bit weak and squishy because it tends to be balanced for higher ilevels that you soon will acquire.
I guess the difference is that the expansions before Legion had no mob scaling so when you went back to the old zones you felt appropriately stronger than when you first visited. And then Legion had Suramar, designed to be the initial endgame zone, where they could put a bit more challenging mobs so they could afford not to make mobs in old zones too powerful, even if they were upscaled to lvl 110 now.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I'm coming across coherently here, I'm still trying to figure out why it bothers me so much more than it did in previous expansions.
I would argue that as soon as something becomes "competitive" and part of a competition, especially at the highest level of play, such as the Arena Invitational or the MDI, the only thing that should matter is player skill. There should be no other variables. Period.
Especially in this day and age where gaming companies, especially Blizzard, are trying to cultivate esports as a legitimate scene.
Using real-sports, as in not esports as a counter example, there are a lot of things that are regulated by the leagues to maintain a fair and balanced playing field. Remember Inflate Gate with Tom Brady? Because his balls were slightly less inflated than regulation balls? That's a "gear" advantage, and not allowed by the league. Likewise, in baseball at the professional level they don't allow metal bats, and balls are retired after so many uses, and things like that.
And since it's the World Cup right now, soccer is an appropriate counter example. Players have to conform to very specific rules about their cleats and what shoes are and aren't legal on the field. And other rules governing equipment as well.
My point is this: In real physical sports, equipment is regulated, monitored, and equalized. It comes down to skill and teamwork.
You cannot have legitimate esports with gear differential. Because as soon as you bring gear differential into it, it invalidates the skill matchup. People will call Team A's skill into question if they win because they had 1% more crit than Team B. Or whatever. Doesn't matter if it's PVE or PVP. All teams should be playing with identical gear.
That's why games that are built for PVP, such as HotS or Overwatch are vastly superior. Because those games do not have any other factors besides skill and teamwork. Those are the only things that should matter in a competitive game.
RPGs can never be legitimate esport contenders until and unless they remove gear as a factor.
And actually, I would take it a step further and say they should remove all racials as well.
For big tournaments such as the AI and MDI, Blizzard should have a tournament-only "default race" that all players play as. And the "default race" should be the most vanilla and bland version possible. No Stoneskin. No WotF. No Warstomp. No Arcane Torrent. No anything at all that separates one character above another.
I just hit 120 on my ret paladin and it feels so bloody weak.
I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
That does not seem to unusual most expansions once you get to the last level of that expansion prior to getting dungeon/raid gear you tend to feel a bit weak and squishy because it tends to be balanced for higher ilevels that you soon will acquire.
I guess the difference is that the expansions before Legion had no mob scaling so when you went back to the old zones you felt appropriately stronger than when you first visited. And then Legion had Suramar, designed to be the initial endgame zone, where they could put a bit more challenging mobs so they could afford not to make mobs in old zones too powerful, even if they were upscaled to lvl 110 now.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I'm coming across coherently here, I'm still trying to figure out why it bothers me so much more than it did in previous expansions.
It is entirely possible their scaling at max level is a bit off as well. There have been tweaks to that in the past so it is a knob they can turn but generally I notice it in legion a lot going from 109 to 110 then suddenly I have to be careful on WQ until I get some max level gear going then it goes back to normal.
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Well that went well
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hahahah wow what a proc
edit: at least they still won that map
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Seems unlikely that they didn't catch the bug since KJA turned the mirror several times and it never activated, are you allowed to call out a bug during a stream as a caster on these things or does that put you on the blizzard naughty list?
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I guess the NA stands for NOT APPLICABLE TO BE CHAMPIONS WOOO FUCK METHOD!
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Classes and specs are fine. Opens some variety and access, but it does make it harder to balance so that people feel things are reasonably and fun. What isn't fine for PvP design is to add in additional variables onto a reasonable design and taking it into an unreasonable direction.
Variables like levels, to the point where someone on a contested server walks into a contested zone for the very first time, that's still low in levels and gets one shot by some fucking asshole. Yeah, we could all say that "well world PvP in that context is bullshit," but even in the BGs, when you're aren't at max lvl you get cases where lower level players are at an automated disadvantage because because they have to face higher level players. For the lower level player, it's not fun because they do hold their team back because by RPG design, they are weaker. It's not fun for the higher level player that wants a challenge because RPG design means the scenario is much less challenge and if they aren't a douchebag, they aren't going to look for novel ways to make it more challenge because that fucks their own team over and may be perceived as toying with weaker opponents. A game that actually put real thought into PvP would at least go with a setup where level is irrelevant. Pop into a BG for 20-30 players, doesn't matter because everyone in there is given the same stat templates (ex. all outlaw rogues have the same agi, stam, armor, crit, mastery, haste and versatility and whatever else they have) and access to the same skills (again those outlaw rogues all have the same moves and talents), where everyone is on the same playing field and it comes down to skill and team work.
Gear is another big one and probably one of the biggest reasons that I feel RPG setups are fucking shit for PvP; especially, if the game relies on RNG to limit really powerful items. Like it's absolutely shit for a good player to find themselves in a situation where a really shit player just destroys them because that shitty player got really lucky and got the most powerful items, while the more skilled player got shat upon by RNG in terms of drops. Though to make this worse, WoW has had several cases where if you wanted to be good at PvP, you had to be in a raiding guild to get the best PvP items (as an aside, I always laugh at the fucking stupidity where PvPers and PvEers do epeen waving on which is harder, the answer is neither because each aspect requires different approaches and gameplay skills). A game that didn't tack PvP on as an after thought would at least make sure the best gear in PvP was earned by PvPing and probably wouldn't make it random drop because it really should be about skill and any RNG should be limited to crits or ability procs that were expected for PvP. I'm bearing in mind that WoW came out before someone say "Hey, we can do the whole leveling thing for PvP in a way that doesn't impact character power," like how they do it for Overwatch or hell go with something like how MOBAs work, start of the match or BG everyone starts at the same level and their action from there net them additional levels. Essentially, try to go with a system that makes an attempt to make sure people are on an even footing as possible (I'm well aware perfect isn't going to happen for a variety of reasons).
Then there was the fact that it took the playerbase over a fucking decade to get Blizz to agree with the idea of "Hey, there really should be some differences between PvP and PvE." For the longest time they dragged their feet on that once they implemented DR because they felt "different rule sets will confuse the players." A game taking a series stab at PvP wouldn't have let that excuse fly and would have made absolutely sure that PvP and PvE balance didn't step on each others toes. Then there is a whole racial ability thing and I'd argue and team that put more thought that Blizz did in the competitive scene, would have disabled all racials for both ranked PvE and PvP because why the would you want to deal with more variables that are going to make things really hard; especially, if you wanted race to be a choice.
Look, I get some of you loved PvP and still do. I also know that PvP was part of the game from the start, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tacked on as an afterthought. Just the shear number of fuckups with PvP designs tells me the most thought the devs first put into PvP, was "we want PvP in this game," unfortunately, that's all they did early on and it's be a mix of them being forced to correct imbalanced ans occasionally liking some of the player suggestions for making PvP better ever since. I'd also argue it ain't going to improve, when plenty of players get offended by the idea the people point out it was shit design in the beginning and continue to essential give Blizz a free pass.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
I am also known as Vontre.
Coolcoolcool. Where are the posts from Blizzard stating they want this to contradict the many, many Blueposts discussing how they want a balanced and good PvP scene?
Yeah because Blizzard always follows through on and actually tries to do everything they say...
I mean they say they want the player to feel powerful and yet we have bfa shaman. What blizzard wants is a game that people talk about and builds its own community so they can continue making money. PvP is never going to be balanced because their mainly supported mode (3v3 arena) is fucking retarded to watch during their tournaments if all the games go to 80% dampening. So they keep priest mage rogue the top team because it's flashy and can end games, rather than something like unholy, aff, healer. Their viewer numbers would get annihilated if that was the team everyone played in arena. Unfortunately, they only balance things for arena. See current Veng DH in RBGs as proof they don't give a fuck about that, when they actually nerfed the damage/cc capabilities of other tanks because they were good in arena.
They gave up on balancing world pvp like half way through TBC. It was just randomly good at various points because of how everything was tuned in a given patch. Currently it sucks donkey balls. Leggos is probably the biggest reason it is terrible on top of other gear scaling issues. MoP world pvp was pretty fun, Wod was iffy depending on the patch, cata was just a shit expansion anyway and i only played like 2 months, wotlk was a train wreck balance-wise. TBC was actually really balanced right at launch before people were stratified with resilience gear and flying, and then again at the end when everyone easily had full resilience gear. Vanilla was literally the only time that they had to balance world pvp because it was the main vector most people experienced pvp. But there were also a lot of consumables and crafted gear (engineering) that could really balance things out if someone wanted to make the effort.
I think expecting some kind of perfect vacuum balance is a fantasy with so many moving parts in wow. They can't even balance arena which they make a small effort to be balanced. Forget world pvp where you have to start taking into account terrain, available consumables/toys, random people running by, npcs. If you want some kind of sanitized pvp wow is not the place to look for it, i would try chess, because that's about the only place you'll find it.
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I die if I pull more than 2 mobs in open world (btw, be prepared to swear a lot at knockbacking pirates in Freeport), my weapon feels like a whiffle bat, and world quests are giving me gear with maybe 2ilvls better than quest rewards and sometimes even weaker than stuff I would get from rare mobs.
Why, why the fuck do the game designers insist on making the character weaker as it levels, it just seems totally ass-backwards to me.
I'll try to get some dungeon gear since first tier of that is 25 ilvls over world quest gear and see if that improves things, but right now, for a fresh max lvl character, the gameplay feels like shit.
I mean regardless of whether they successfully execute I just don't think Blizzard's design goal is for PvP in WoW to be unfair and messy.
Going from fresh 60 to geared 60, fresh 70 to geared 70, etc.... fresh 120 to geared 120, we always gain about 30% crit, and similarly for other stats. If they didn't bring us back down to near 0 each time through the leveling process, we'd be at 8*30=240% crit (and similar for other stats) as BfA geared. What does that even mean? All spells are instacast because everyone has enough haste to make it so? Nobody takes any dmg from any mob because their armor is infinite?
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But I fucking got him. Hulk-bear unlocked.
*collapses into a heap*
You have no idea how much I have been stressing about that.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
It WAS NOT TACKED ON and an AFTERTHOUGHT.
You can make any other valid points, but this was made blatantly obvious to anyone who followed the game then, and in many, many interviews after the fact.
You cannot make that assumption based entirely on your opinion of how good of a job they did.
They did a piss poor ass job of designing talent trees and gearing back then too. Does that mean the entire game was an afterthought? No, it means this might just have been the first MMO they ever made, and they had the ambitious goal of making good PVP and did a poor job of it at the time. And still, it was playable and loved by many. You are free to not have felt that way. Stop trying to say others were wrong for feeling like it, and even worse rewrite history, just because you feel THAT STRONGLY against it.
Bad or not, WoW was made with PVP in mind and they were going to put it in there fail or not before the game even had a playable beta. This is not a free pass. It is a fucking fact. What you are saying, is not fact. No matter how strongly you dislike it and no matter how horrid it was designed.
never before has a post so well aligned with an avatar.
I know that there has to be some way to curb player's power from expansion to expansion, but [infomercial] there has to be a better way [/infomercial].
I think that they realy underestimated how the combination of stat squish, mob scaling and lack of gaining anything during leveling will effect the feel of the gameplay.
What prompted my rant was that, at max level, I got a mining quest which sent me back to zone I had already cleared, let's say, 5 levels ago. A zone designed to have such a high density of mobs that it's impossible to pull them one by one, but back at level 115 pulling extra pack or two was no big deal. Pop wings, pop a shield, and it's manageable.
At level 120 it felt like the mobs leveled up instead of my characters and I was getting killed every other pack because, like I said, at this stage having 3 mobs on you is a death sentence unless you happen to run across a friendly lower level player willing to help you out.
I find it ironic that this is the expansion they decided to remove First Aid because this is the first time in many years where I actually had to stop after every battle and heal up.
However, the amount of effort they put into it was essentially an afterthought other than "hitbar goes to zero equals dead!" in vanilla. Hence why the shaman were essentially god mode in vanilla. Raiding required a lot more time and effort, though it was built on the underlying instancing tech so it had a much larger amount of effort put into it as a whole. Reusing models and other assets is just good game design.
World PvP has always been bad. Even in the battlegrounds it's still kind of shit. I understand there's a bunch of y'all that like it. But even I admit that eating pizza every day is bad for me even if I'd love the shit out of it.
WoW is a really fun game, and on some classes I play I find world and instanced pvp a lot of fun. I doubt it ever will be perfectly balanced, but for a semi casual player it has felt more balanced over time rather than less.
I think part of it is the types of skills gaps people have on top versus the entire point of overwatch is to play the game. There's far more bots in WoW and shit because PvP is often a means to an end for a few people.
What part about pve wasn't "hitbar goes to zero equals dead" in vanilla? That's literally what the fights were. Dungeons and raids that's all it was. Most enemies didn't even have special abilities and casters mostly just cast frost/fireball. Raiding was just attack the boss and spam decurse every so often. My raid/dungeon rotation on my rogue was sinister strike and keep slice and dice up and dump extra points into evis.
lfr has by far supplanted pvp as the primary way to effortlessly get gear. Even in vanilla it didnt matter because botters would just use a hunter to farm things like mara or even just mobs in a zone such as the satyrs in azshara, and they could easily do that in greens. Certainly aren't any bots in today's BGs because there aren't any rewards. The problem with pvp is that some people just want to fight while others want to win, so not everyone is incentivized to actually play objectives.
Almost every other MMO that I've bounced around to has fallen apart the same way, both wildstar and swtor fell apart when they stopped developing pvp so they could work on their raids. Guild wars 2 was kind of the same as well with them definitely moving to focus on adding the fractal dungeons and after the expansion they moved towards adding raids. Meanwhile very little was done to wvw and their version of battlegrounds was never really updated after launch.
Comparing the an mmo to hots or overwatch is kind of disingenuous. First off hots only has like 5 buttons per character and it's still a steaming pile of unbalanced bullshit. You could probably add up all the abilities of characters in overwatch and it'd be about the same number of buttons as a druid or warlock had on their bars in vanilla. It's an fps which is point and click with maybe 1-2 abilities. Balanced is probably not the best way to describe overwatch either when you play quickmatch, which would be the equivalent of BGs in wow.
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There were several fights that had mechanics other than hitbar to zero. Of course, in retrospect they were very boring compared to fights of today. Of course, the fights of today are just different plays on "don't stand in the void zone" or "stand in this one specific void zone" so it's not really too crazy anyways.
You can still PvP for transmog. There are items that are locked behind it my dude.
Couple of things:
If you thought PVP in vanilla was hit until hp zero then you clearly do not know enough about what it was actually like back then, but refuse to admit it. I did a ton of PVP and lots of dueling. There were so many intricacies to PVP that revolve around the same basis mentalities of a fighting game. There were actions and counters to those actions. I could fucking beat people in T2 in front of Org in nothing but half naked RP gear because I knew my shit. And I won't say I was the best either. It was because those people knew nothing about it. If there was one completely failed aspect of it (which is in all honesty an issue that is kind of hard to resolve) it is that there isn't super clear feedback as to why you will lose. Where in PVE there is. The thing is, PVE players dipping into PVP would be quick to just assume balance issues, never learn what happened OR how to deal with it, and claim it was shit. The issues they had with it might actually be the complete opposite of the issues ACTUALLY in need of balance. If there was anything wrong back then with how Blizz handled it, it was that they listened to PVE players complaints about PVP too much.
Also, how in the FUCK can you claim they "can clearly make good PVP gameplay" while citing games that came about after nearly 10 fucking plus YEARS of experience? That is like saying if I played Baseball in the minors for 10 years and then move up to the majors, that clearly I knew how to play baseball that whole time. No, it means I now am 10 fucking years wiser. That is actually new levels of goose logic.
Look, this argument is as pointless now as it always was. I think its good at least some of you will admit we like (or liked, at least) it and that is ok. Just admit as well that you might not have had the proper knowledge to really be supplying your opinions as fact and that anyone disagreeing is just blindly faithful. The hundreds of hours I put into it back then supplied me with enough knowledge that assuredly is much more than blind faith, I guarantee it.
That does not seem to unusual most expansions once you get to the last level of that expansion prior to getting dungeon/raid gear you tend to feel a bit weak and squishy because it tends to be balanced for higher ilevels that you soon will acquire.
If a naked rogue can beat the best of geared people, it's not "because they're skilled", the game was broken. The human aspect of PvP wasn't by design, though. But this is why world PvP died out because eventually the broken parts outweighed the human element. Also the human element is more often than not trash, but 9 times out of 10 it's someone playing a cheesy class (naked rogue ganking or shockadin).
I didn't make that claim.
I never said you couldn't like or, or shouldn't, just that admitting bad things as bad is hard to do for some reason. Like I said, I can eat pizza every day, and I would love every fucking minute of it. But it's still bad.
So, I was the one making this claim, talking about the current environment. As WoW is in a 2 year cycle of refresh, talking about their experience over time seems relevant in discussing their progression in tinkering with the MMO PVP experience. I also like the current PvP and have liked WoW pvp in various capacities since launch. It's fine. It's enjoyable. It's good enough for an MMO, and I'm usually happy with each patch changes.
Also, dial it back a bit maybe? Not sure any of this is worth virtually shouting about.
I guess the difference is that the expansions before Legion had no mob scaling so when you went back to the old zones you felt appropriately stronger than when you first visited. And then Legion had Suramar, designed to be the initial endgame zone, where they could put a bit more challenging mobs so they could afford not to make mobs in old zones too powerful, even if they were upscaled to lvl 110 now.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I'm coming across coherently here, I'm still trying to figure out why it bothers me so much more than it did in previous expansions.
Especially in this day and age where gaming companies, especially Blizzard, are trying to cultivate esports as a legitimate scene.
Using real-sports, as in not esports as a counter example, there are a lot of things that are regulated by the leagues to maintain a fair and balanced playing field. Remember Inflate Gate with Tom Brady? Because his balls were slightly less inflated than regulation balls? That's a "gear" advantage, and not allowed by the league. Likewise, in baseball at the professional level they don't allow metal bats, and balls are retired after so many uses, and things like that.
And since it's the World Cup right now, soccer is an appropriate counter example. Players have to conform to very specific rules about their cleats and what shoes are and aren't legal on the field. And other rules governing equipment as well.
My point is this: In real physical sports, equipment is regulated, monitored, and equalized. It comes down to skill and teamwork.
You cannot have legitimate esports with gear differential. Because as soon as you bring gear differential into it, it invalidates the skill matchup. People will call Team A's skill into question if they win because they had 1% more crit than Team B. Or whatever. Doesn't matter if it's PVE or PVP. All teams should be playing with identical gear.
That's why games that are built for PVP, such as HotS or Overwatch are vastly superior. Because those games do not have any other factors besides skill and teamwork. Those are the only things that should matter in a competitive game.
RPGs can never be legitimate esport contenders until and unless they remove gear as a factor.
And actually, I would take it a step further and say they should remove all racials as well.
For big tournaments such as the AI and MDI, Blizzard should have a tournament-only "default race" that all players play as. And the "default race" should be the most vanilla and bland version possible. No Stoneskin. No WotF. No Warstomp. No Arcane Torrent. No anything at all that separates one character above another.
It is entirely possible their scaling at max level is a bit off as well. There have been tweaks to that in the past so it is a knob they can turn but generally I notice it in legion a lot going from 109 to 110 then suddenly I have to be careful on WQ until I get some max level gear going then it goes back to normal.