I would argue that as soon as something becomes "competitive" and part of a competition, especially at the highest level of play, such as the Arena Invitational or the MDI, the only thing that should matter is player skill. There should be no other variables. Period.
Especially in this day and age where gaming companies, especially Blizzard, are trying to cultivate esports as a legitimate scene.
Using real-sports, as in not esports as a counter example, there are a lot of things that are regulated by the leagues to maintain a fair and balanced playing field. Remember Inflate Gate with Tom Brady? Because his balls were slightly less inflated than regulation balls? That's a "gear" advantage, and not allowed by the league. Likewise, in baseball at the professional level they don't allow metal bats, and balls are retired after so many uses, and things like that.
And since it's the World Cup right now, soccer is an appropriate counter example. Players have to conform to very specific rules about their cleats and what shoes are and aren't legal on the field. And other rules governing equipment as well.
My point is this: In real physical sports, equipment is regulated, monitored, and equalized. It comes down to skill and teamwork.
You cannot have legitimate esports with gear differential. Because as soon as you bring gear differential into it, it invalidates the skill matchup. People will call Team A's skill into question if they win because they had 1% more crit than Team B. Or whatever. Doesn't matter if it's PVE or PVP. All teams should be playing with identical gear.
That's why games that are built for PVP, such as HotS or Overwatch are vastly superior. Because those games do not have any other factors besides skill and teamwork. Those are the only things that should matter in a competitive game.
RPGs can never be legitimate esport contenders until and unless they remove gear as a factor.
And actually, I would take it a step further and say they should remove all racials as well.
For big tournaments such as the AI and MDI, Blizzard should have a tournament-only "default race" that all players play as. And the "default race" should be the most vanilla and bland version possible. No Stoneskin. No WotF. No Warstomp. No Arcane Torrent. No anything at all that separates one character above another.
This sounds joyless and I would rather just play HoTS or Overwatch at that point.
Typically, in order to have a fair game play in regards to player skill being the largest deciding factor: you need to remove variability from static elements (classes) and increase variability and ability to counter (change heroes/weapons on the fly).
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
That's just chess. A fine game, but not every game need be like it.
There are just too many moving parts in wow for it to ever achieve some kind of fair state. Arena was/is the worst thing they ever added to the game. BGs are somewhat balanced because when you add so many moving elements together they all just kind of wash each other out. But trying to balance different combinations of 3v3 the game just can't support that small level skirmish when there are no npcs, environment, or consumables to level the gaps between classes. Wow just isn't setup to be an esports type of game, and it shouldn't be. It's all about those more organic fights that come up in either world pvp or by the decisions people make in BGs.
Warcraft has always been about the larger fights with a lot of moving parts, WC3 even with the heroes had an incredible amount of abilities across every unit, fights would regularly happen at creep camps, and outcomes could be determined by gear drops from those creeps camps. In addition there were a lot of consumables with different effects that could drop and be bought from different shops. Warcraft has never been that sanitized space for combat, it's always been the kind of wacky wild west combat.
I would argue that as soon as something becomes "competitive" and part of a competition, especially at the highest level of play, such as the Arena Invitational or the MDI, the only thing that should matter is player skill. There should be no other variables. Period.
Especially in this day and age where gaming companies, especially Blizzard, are trying to cultivate esports as a legitimate scene.
Using real-sports, as in not esports as a counter example, there are a lot of things that are regulated by the leagues to maintain a fair and balanced playing field. Remember Inflate Gate with Tom Brady? Because his balls were slightly less inflated than regulation balls? That's a "gear" advantage, and not allowed by the league. Likewise, in baseball at the professional level they don't allow metal bats, and balls are retired after so many uses, and things like that.
And since it's the World Cup right now, soccer is an appropriate counter example. Players have to conform to very specific rules about their cleats and what shoes are and aren't legal on the field. And other rules governing equipment as well.
My point is this: In real physical sports, equipment is regulated, monitored, and equalized. It comes down to skill and teamwork.
You cannot have legitimate esports with gear differential. Because as soon as you bring gear differential into it, it invalidates the skill matchup. People will call Team A's skill into question if they win because they had 1% more crit than Team B. Or whatever. Doesn't matter if it's PVE or PVP. All teams should be playing with identical gear.
That's why games that are built for PVP, such as HotS or Overwatch are vastly superior. Because those games do not have any other factors besides skill and teamwork. Those are the only things that should matter in a competitive game.
RPGs can never be legitimate esport contenders until and unless they remove gear as a factor.
And actually, I would take it a step further and say they should remove all racials as well.
For big tournaments such as the AI and MDI, Blizzard should have a tournament-only "default race" that all players play as. And the "default race" should be the most vanilla and bland version possible. No Stoneskin. No WotF. No Warstomp. No Arcane Torrent. No anything at all that separates one character above another.
This sounds joyless and I would rather just play HoTS or Overwatch at that point.
Alternatively, I found PVP in Warsong Gulch to be a joyless affair when my team had no shamans with the Hand of Rag, and the enemy team did have a Shaman that had a Hand of Rag and could windfury and get like 6 attacks in one swing and instantly delete someone.
That's a gear issue right there. Also a class imbalance issue because Horde was undeniably the better PVP faction in Vanilla WoW.
No amount of player skill could make up for the fact that the Horde had what they had. Being an Alliance player back then was dark days.
But that wasn't really the point of my post. The point of my post was that esports at large, like ALL of esports, need to be much more heavily regulated and fine tuned to be about player skill and not about stats and who got luckier drops in raiding.
Especially if you're talking PVP.
PVP's outcome should not be based on "he who raids wins at PVP."
Someone with a legendary in vanilla was a spectacle. That crap was rare as fuck. Don't act like everyone was running around with one. The more realistic case was that a shaman was running around with the hammer from AV. Also if a shaman managed to connect with anyone with anything but frost shock people were playing like scrubs.
frost shock and ghost wolf gonna wreck your day though
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I have always been of the opinion that players should not be able to outgear each other in PVP as well. I enjoyed what it was in Guild Wars 2 because you just had set stat levels, but still picked which stats you were building for. That allowed for the only benefit to "gearing" for pvp outside of people feeling like they should be able to lord over players regardless of skill just because of time spend.
That is a PVE thing. Which seems to be yet another aspect of PVE spilling over. It is something that Wow really STILL wants to hold on to with that slight scaling based on ilvl even though there are templates. Just like, let go, equalize power levels, and let the hundreds of hours you put cause your superior skill to make you lord over new players, not just numbers.
People seem to need some reason to do it though other than fun. I never needed that. Another fighting game analogy from me. I played FG just to enjoy competing. I didn't need to slowly get some kind of game rewards - I just wanted to keep playing because it was fun every single time, and I might just get a little better every time I played.
+4
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
I have always been of the opinion that players should not be able to outgear each other in PVP as well. I enjoyed what it was in Guild Wars 2 because you just had set stat levels, but still picked which stats you were building for. That allowed for the only benefit to "gearing" for pvp outside of people feeling like they should be able to lord over players regardless of skill just because of time spend.
That is a PVE thing. Which seems to be yet another aspect of PVE spilling over. It is something that Wow really STILL wants to hold on to with that slight scaling based on ilvl even though there are templates. Just like, let go, equalize power levels, and let the hundreds of hours you put cause your superior skill to make you lord over new players, not just numbers.
People seem to need some reason to do it though other than fun. I never needed that. Another fighting game analogy from me. I played FG just to enjoy competing. I didn't need to slowly get some kind of game rewards - I just wanted to keep playing because it was fun every single time, and I might just get a little better every time I played.
I mean, that's what cosmetic rewards are for anyways. I'm in agreement that they should just flatten everyone's ilvls. But they'll never do that, and they're also pretty bad at it :P But yeah.
PVP in this game has long been a mixed bag balance-wise and it's almost never ranked very high on Blizzard's list of priorities. The fact that my unskilled ass could waltz into BGs back in the day with raid gear and find great success was an indictment of the idea of PVP balance and probably hurt many people's enjoyment of the game.
If people want a competitive BG environment then both sides need access to the same shit (and 'access' doesn't mean having to clear mythic raids). Racials would be fine if both teams could have any race, but they can't. And I like racials! I think they should be stronger and more diverse, just disable that shit in rated BGs and wherever else PVP is supposed to be competitively balanced (or allow cross-faction races. Let a Tauren decide that the Horde no longer speaks for his or her values!)
It'll never be perfect, but the more they separate PVP and PVE gear/skills/progression, then better.
+1
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
PVP in this game has long been a mixed bag balance-wise and it's almost never ranked very high on Blizzard's list of priorities. The fact that my unskilled ass could waltz into BGs back in the day with raid gear and find great success was an indictment of the idea of PVP balance and probably hurt many people's enjoyment of the game.
If people want a competitive BG environment then both sides need access to the same shit (and 'access' doesn't mean having to clear mythic raids). Racials would be fine if both teams could have any race, but they can't. And I like racials! I think they should be stronger and more diverse, just disable that shit in rated BGs and wherever else PVP is supposed to be competitively balanced (or allow cross-faction races. Let a Tauren decide that the Horde no longer speaks for his or her values!)
It'll never be perfect, but the more they separate PVP and PVE gear/skills/progression, then better.
And I'll just say, on the flip side, I hate how my PvE tools keep getting nerfed or taken away because they are "OP" in PvP. Like, if that's the case, disable them in PvP... I still don't get why they kept insisting on keeping things the same in both modes. Sounds like they are moving away from that finally though.
I think it would be pretty cool if melee classes couldn't demolish ranged classes just by looking at them.
This is a dynamic that's going to change drastically depending on what you're doing. The pendulum swings hard in the other direction if you're doing anything in group PvP, where melee aren't nearly as effective.
I think it would be pretty cool if melee classes couldn't demolish ranged classes just by looking at them.
This is a dynamic that's going to change drastically depending on what you're doing. The pendulum swings hard in the other direction if you're doing anything in group PvP, where melee aren't nearly as effective.
Sure, but basically telling a ranged class not to even bother pvping unless they're in an organized group is a pretty fucking awful design decision.
Not even an organized group, there's just so much constant aoe going on in pretty much every battleground except for CTFs that it makes melee life incredibly difficult.
+1
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I think it would be pretty cool if melee classes couldn't demolish ranged classes just by looking at them.
This is a dynamic that's going to change drastically depending on what you're doing. The pendulum swings hard in the other direction if you're doing anything in group PvP, where melee aren't nearly as effective.
Sure, but basically telling a ranged class not to even bother pvping unless they're in an organized group is a pretty fucking awful design decision.
That is not the only way for ranged to handle melee. He gave an example, but not the only situation.
You know how I said you shouldn't make snap assumptions based on your first experience in PVP as if you completely understand? That is what you are doing. It is like someone walking into Mythic Argus and saying dps is broken because it is way too hard to stay alive.
Not even an organized group, there's just so much constant aoe going on in pretty much every battleground except for CTFs that it makes melee life incredibly difficult.
I think that might vary based on the class you play. My favorite melee alt is Havoc DH, and in (un-rated) BGs, ambient AoE isn't all that hazardous. Getting focused fired is what's bad.
And I agree with more or less all the sentiments in this thread, but... the biggest advantage anyone can have in PvP is one or more teammates on voice chat. If you want to win in unrated BGs (which seems to be how most of us PvP), get a friend (especially a healer friend) to join you on Discord. A BG side with even two members who are relatively well coordinated will beat most groups that aren't pre-mades.
I think we can discuss this without getting TOO condescending. It's getting awfully man-splainy in here.
Mansplaining is assuming someone has no expertise or experience based on something about them, rather than based on whether or not they actually have that expertise or experience. It's not really applicable to this discussion, since everyone has been quite open about how much PvP experience they have and have been doing.
In a vacuum, dismissing someone's opinions because they don't have enough experience with the issue at hand is not unreasonable. If someone was ranting to me about Mythic Keystone class balance but had never done anything higher than a 15 I'd be dismissing their opinions on that too. Of course, it doesn't have to be done in a goosey way.
I think we can discuss this without getting TOO condescending. It's getting awfully man-splainy in here.
Mansplaining is assuming someone has no expertise or experience based on something about them, rather than based on whether or not they actually have that expertise or experience. It's not really applicable to this discussion, since everyone has been quite open about how much PvP experience they have and have been doing.
In a vacuum, dismissing someone's opinions because they don't have enough experience with the issue at hand is not unreasonable. If someone was ranting to me about Mythic Keystone class balance but had never done anything higher than a 15 I'd be dismissing their opinions on that too. Of course, it doesn't have to be done in a goosey way.
Yeah but no one is saying ‘I’ve never PVPd before, but...’
It’s being assumed that they have no experience, because they disagree with the person being condescending. Rather than something like my own case, where my perspective of things like PVP never really being good are expressly BECAUSE I’ve done a ton of PVP, especially early on, until MoP.
I think we can discuss this without getting TOO condescending. It's getting awfully man-splainy in here.
Mansplaining is assuming someone has no expertise or experience based on something about them, rather than based on whether or not they actually have that expertise or experience. It's not really applicable to this discussion, since everyone has been quite open about how much PvP experience they have and have been doing.
In a vacuum, dismissing someone's opinions because they don't have enough experience with the issue at hand is not unreasonable. If someone was ranting to me about Mythic Keystone class balance but had never done anything higher than a 15 I'd be dismissing their opinions on that too. Of course, it doesn't have to be done in a goosey way.
Ah, yes. The rare meta-mansplaining. I'm excited to have the opportunity to see it in the wild.
+3
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Combat condescending with condescending -_-
I apologize for not wording it better. But it is true that if you say something like "melee destroy ranged its just unfair" you are refusing to learn the intricacies that make up pvp in games. There are reasons for that, and yeah at the entry level melee will dominate ranged because melee is much more straightforward. It is like picking a rushdown char in a fighting game. You just do attacks and it seems like an overwhelming unstoppable force to the newcomer. Yet, they are actually incredibly easy to counter once you know the counter play, then it becomes a back and forth game of learning the opponents counter and countering that.
I am not just trying to downplay the typical knowledge of someone who throws out uninformed complaints like that. I may be doing a poor job of it, but I am trying to give examples that might be more familiar to help understand exactly what you are doing.
Dhal did make a valid point. You can't sit there and talk about how something is balanced when you aren't even using all the tools at your disposal to their maximum potential. The best example I can give in the ranged vs melee point is that you can't claim ranged are helpless because you can't sit an turret like you do in pve, and are not using what could likely be superbly overpowered defensive tools that prevent the melee from getting near you. It also might feel like those don't work because that melee has seen them all before, and called all your attempts to stop him. You are supposed to then outsmart him, but you aren't at that level yet, so it seems like you just outright fail. Does that make more sense?
can we all agree that modern world pvp and pvp servers are hot trash though
Yes and No, in that order.
Melee vs ranged is really more spec dependent than anything. Some melee specs are more mobile than others and same with ranged specs. The biggest problems I see is that people do completely stupid shit that fucks themselves, like using death grip on a mage/druid before they blink, or using a stun when the enemy is at full health and no one else is attacking them.
The people who don't like pvp just don't like to lose. It's also the same as any other game where you are playing against another person, when you try to dip your toe into it you get dragged down into the deep end and eaten by sharks. In any game whether it be overwatch, call of duty, hearthstone, whichever moba, fortnite, or whatever else, if you don't have the base knowledge for the given game you get destroyed, and as we can see in simple things like dungeons and lfr, people won't even look up or learn even basic things about their own class, let alone what other people's characters do.
Sure gear right now makes world pvp a shit show, but BGs aren't too bad atm, and arenas just take more coordination than the average mouthbreather can handle.
can we all agree that modern world pvp and pvp servers are hot trash though
Yes and No, in that order.
Melee vs ranged is really more spec dependent than anything. Some melee specs are more mobile than others and same with ranged specs. The biggest problems I see is that people do completely stupid shit that fucks themselves, like using death grip on a mage/druid before they blink, or using a stun when the enemy is at full health and no one else is attacking them.
The people who don't like pvp just don't like to lose. It's also the same as any other game where you are playing against another person, when you try to dip your toe into it you get dragged down into the deep end and eaten by sharks. In any game whether it be overwatch, call of duty, hearthstone, whichever moba, fortnite, or whatever else, if you don't have the base knowledge for the given game you get destroyed, and as we can see in simple things like dungeons and lfr, people won't even look up or learn even basic things about their own class, let alone what other people's characters do.
Sure gear right now makes world pvp a shit show, but BGs aren't too bad atm, and arenas just take more coordination than the average mouthbreather can handle.
did... did any of your post respond to my post?
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Honestly we stopped needing extra levels a long fucking time ago. having to do 5-10 levels every expansion is such a waste of time because the content usually doesnt matter and is completely forgotten. Doesnt help that they decide to just conjure up land masses all the time too so there are like double the number of zones as in vanilla and 90% of them are completely devoid of player activity.
I like doing the story stuff once, and then I hate it on alts. I like ff14's set-up much better for leveling alt jobs tbqh.
can we all agree that modern world pvp and pvp servers are hot trash though
Yes and No, in that order.
Melee vs ranged is really more spec dependent than anything. Some melee specs are more mobile than others and same with ranged specs. The biggest problems I see is that people do completely stupid shit that fucks themselves, like using death grip on a mage/druid before they blink, or using a stun when the enemy is at full health and no one else is attacking them.
The people who don't like pvp just don't like to lose. It's also the same as any other game where you are playing against another person, when you try to dip your toe into it you get dragged down into the deep end and eaten by sharks. In any game whether it be overwatch, call of duty, hearthstone, whichever moba, fortnite, or whatever else, if you don't have the base knowledge for the given game you get destroyed, and as we can see in simple things like dungeons and lfr, people won't even look up or learn even basic things about their own class, let alone what other people's characters do.
Sure gear right now makes world pvp a shit show, but BGs aren't too bad atm, and arenas just take more coordination than the average mouthbreather can handle.
did... did any of your post respond to my post?
Yeah... world pvp atm is stupid hence the yes, pvp servers are fine hence th no. The rest was more addressing other posts.
Honestly we stopped needing extra levels a long fucking time ago. having to do 5-10 levels every expansion is such a waste of time because the content usually doesnt matter and is completely forgotten. Doesnt help that they decide to just conjure up land masses all the time too so there are like double the number of zones as in vanilla and 90% of them are completely devoid of player activity.
I like doing the story stuff once, and then I hate it on alts. I like ff14's set-up much better for leveling alt jobs tbqh.
Being able to do everything on one character is hands down the best mmo system implemented.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited June 2018
if world PVP is stupid then by extension PVP servers are automatically stupid along with them, because world PVP is literally the only thing PVP servers have that the other servers don't have.
Dhalphir on
+2
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I think what he is saying is that currently, world pvp and thus pvp servers suck, but the concept of world pvp / pvp servers does not.
if world PVP is stupid then by extension PVP servers are automatically stupid along with them, because world PVP is literally the only thing PVP servers have that the other servers don't have.
YUP
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
So the mage tower SHOULD be dropping in a few hours, but instead is still sitting at 100% completion, so it's possible it's now up indefinitely until the prepatch.
Posts
This sounds joyless and I would rather just play HoTS or Overwatch at that point.
Warcraft has always been about the larger fights with a lot of moving parts, WC3 even with the heroes had an incredible amount of abilities across every unit, fights would regularly happen at creep camps, and outcomes could be determined by gear drops from those creeps camps. In addition there were a lot of consumables with different effects that could drop and be bought from different shops. Warcraft has never been that sanitized space for combat, it's always been the kind of wacky wild west combat.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Alternatively, I found PVP in Warsong Gulch to be a joyless affair when my team had no shamans with the Hand of Rag, and the enemy team did have a Shaman that had a Hand of Rag and could windfury and get like 6 attacks in one swing and instantly delete someone.
That's a gear issue right there. Also a class imbalance issue because Horde was undeniably the better PVP faction in Vanilla WoW.
No amount of player skill could make up for the fact that the Horde had what they had. Being an Alliance player back then was dark days.
But that wasn't really the point of my post. The point of my post was that esports at large, like ALL of esports, need to be much more heavily regulated and fine tuned to be about player skill and not about stats and who got luckier drops in raiding.
Especially if you're talking PVP.
PVP's outcome should not be based on "he who raids wins at PVP."
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
That is a PVE thing. Which seems to be yet another aspect of PVE spilling over. It is something that Wow really STILL wants to hold on to with that slight scaling based on ilvl even though there are templates. Just like, let go, equalize power levels, and let the hundreds of hours you put cause your superior skill to make you lord over new players, not just numbers.
People seem to need some reason to do it though other than fun. I never needed that. Another fighting game analogy from me. I played FG just to enjoy competing. I didn't need to slowly get some kind of game rewards - I just wanted to keep playing because it was fun every single time, and I might just get a little better every time I played.
I mean, that's what cosmetic rewards are for anyways. I'm in agreement that they should just flatten everyone's ilvls. But they'll never do that, and they're also pretty bad at it :P But yeah.
If people want a competitive BG environment then both sides need access to the same shit (and 'access' doesn't mean having to clear mythic raids). Racials would be fine if both teams could have any race, but they can't. And I like racials! I think they should be stronger and more diverse, just disable that shit in rated BGs and wherever else PVP is supposed to be competitively balanced (or allow cross-faction races. Let a Tauren decide that the Horde no longer speaks for his or her values!)
It'll never be perfect, but the more they separate PVP and PVE gear/skills/progression, then better.
And I'll just say, on the flip side, I hate how my PvE tools keep getting nerfed or taken away because they are "OP" in PvP. Like, if that's the case, disable them in PvP... I still don't get why they kept insisting on keeping things the same in both modes. Sounds like they are moving away from that finally though.
They'd be better off taking a rock-paper-scissors approach to melee-caster-range and just equalizing it that way.
This is a dynamic that's going to change drastically depending on what you're doing. The pendulum swings hard in the other direction if you're doing anything in group PvP, where melee aren't nearly as effective.
Sure, but basically telling a ranged class not to even bother pvping unless they're in an organized group is a pretty fucking awful design decision.
That is not the only way for ranged to handle melee. He gave an example, but not the only situation.
You know how I said you shouldn't make snap assumptions based on your first experience in PVP as if you completely understand? That is what you are doing. It is like someone walking into Mythic Argus and saying dps is broken because it is way too hard to stay alive.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
I think that might vary based on the class you play. My favorite melee alt is Havoc DH, and in (un-rated) BGs, ambient AoE isn't all that hazardous. Getting focused fired is what's bad.
And I agree with more or less all the sentiments in this thread, but... the biggest advantage anyone can have in PvP is one or more teammates on voice chat. If you want to win in unrated BGs (which seems to be how most of us PvP), get a friend (especially a healer friend) to join you on Discord. A BG side with even two members who are relatively well coordinated will beat most groups that aren't pre-mades.
I guess time to hit up the FriendshipBirb people and see if I can get AOTC before August, and do the lvl 15 mythic
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Mansplaining is assuming someone has no expertise or experience based on something about them, rather than based on whether or not they actually have that expertise or experience. It's not really applicable to this discussion, since everyone has been quite open about how much PvP experience they have and have been doing.
In a vacuum, dismissing someone's opinions because they don't have enough experience with the issue at hand is not unreasonable. If someone was ranting to me about Mythic Keystone class balance but had never done anything higher than a 15 I'd be dismissing their opinions on that too. Of course, it doesn't have to be done in a goosey way.
Yeah but no one is saying ‘I’ve never PVPd before, but...’
It’s being assumed that they have no experience, because they disagree with the person being condescending. Rather than something like my own case, where my perspective of things like PVP never really being good are expressly BECAUSE I’ve done a ton of PVP, especially early on, until MoP.
Ah, yes. The rare meta-mansplaining. I'm excited to have the opportunity to see it in the wild.
I apologize for not wording it better. But it is true that if you say something like "melee destroy ranged its just unfair" you are refusing to learn the intricacies that make up pvp in games. There are reasons for that, and yeah at the entry level melee will dominate ranged because melee is much more straightforward. It is like picking a rushdown char in a fighting game. You just do attacks and it seems like an overwhelming unstoppable force to the newcomer. Yet, they are actually incredibly easy to counter once you know the counter play, then it becomes a back and forth game of learning the opponents counter and countering that.
I am not just trying to downplay the typical knowledge of someone who throws out uninformed complaints like that. I may be doing a poor job of it, but I am trying to give examples that might be more familiar to help understand exactly what you are doing.
Dhal did make a valid point. You can't sit there and talk about how something is balanced when you aren't even using all the tools at your disposal to their maximum potential. The best example I can give in the ranged vs melee point is that you can't claim ranged are helpless because you can't sit an turret like you do in pve, and are not using what could likely be superbly overpowered defensive tools that prevent the melee from getting near you. It also might feel like those don't work because that melee has seen them all before, and called all your attempts to stop him. You are supposed to then outsmart him, but you aren't at that level yet, so it seems like you just outright fail. Does that make more sense?
Yes and No, in that order.
Melee vs ranged is really more spec dependent than anything. Some melee specs are more mobile than others and same with ranged specs. The biggest problems I see is that people do completely stupid shit that fucks themselves, like using death grip on a mage/druid before they blink, or using a stun when the enemy is at full health and no one else is attacking them.
The people who don't like pvp just don't like to lose. It's also the same as any other game where you are playing against another person, when you try to dip your toe into it you get dragged down into the deep end and eaten by sharks. In any game whether it be overwatch, call of duty, hearthstone, whichever moba, fortnite, or whatever else, if you don't have the base knowledge for the given game you get destroyed, and as we can see in simple things like dungeons and lfr, people won't even look up or learn even basic things about their own class, let alone what other people's characters do.
Sure gear right now makes world pvp a shit show, but BGs aren't too bad atm, and arenas just take more coordination than the average mouthbreather can handle.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
I mean, it depends on the spec.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
did... did any of your post respond to my post?
And nerf Death Knights and their dang necroposting
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
I like doing the story stuff once, and then I hate it on alts. I like ff14's set-up much better for leveling alt jobs tbqh.
Yeah... world pvp atm is stupid hence the yes, pvp servers are fine hence th no. The rest was more addressing other posts.
Being able to do everything on one character is hands down the best mmo system implemented.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
Maybe.
YUP
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.