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Don't worry, Remedy have everything under [Control]

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    RisenPhoenixRisenPhoenix SUPER HOTRegistered User regular
    Okay, this is much more enjoyable on the second playthrough. Now that I know how the combat works and what skills I prefer to invest in I'm finding myself much less bogged down with fights and enjoying myself.

    Also, a big congrats to Martti Suosalo for taking home the BAFTA Games award for Performer in a Supporting Role. Ahti adds such character to the Oldest House.

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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Finally got round to the Foundation. I love everything about the world building and lore, but I fucking hate the combat. I despise it. It is terrible. Enemies whos main ability is dodging the things thrown by your main ability, guns do shit damage, and yeah, hate it. It almost puts me off playing tbh, I was close to watching a Youtube playthrough. And it's not that I don't like action/combat, I played DMC3 to death, but the combat in this game is awful in every way. I hope they find a better way to handle it in the next game.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Considering the game has no difficulty options, they made a very specific type of game that isn't going to be for everyone, for better or worse. The combat was the worst part, with the lore being the best.

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    GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII They wanna get my gold on the ceilingRegistered User regular
    edited May 2020
    A lot I really like about this game. But:

    Fuck the anchor
    Fuck the fridge
    Fuck the giant plant

    GoodKingJayIII on
    Battletag: Threeve#1501; PSN: Threeve703; Steam: 3eeve
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    I skipped every optional boss in the regular game, so the DLC seeming to be based heavily around boss fights is a turnoff.

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    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    Finally got round to the Foundation. I love everything about the world building and lore, but I fucking hate the combat. I despise it. It is terrible. Enemies whos main ability is dodging the things thrown by your main ability, guns do shit damage, and yeah, hate it. It almost puts me off playing tbh, I was close to watching a Youtube playthrough. And it's not that I don't like action/combat, I played DMC3 to death, but the combat in this game is awful in every way. I hope they find a better way to handle it in the next game.

    I straight up got a PC trainer and gave myself infinite health with no regrets. I desperately want them to introduce a "Myst-Mode" where there's 0 combat, just puzzles and lore. but man they REALLY wanted it to be a Souls-like :\

    This is especially jarring now that I'm playing FFVII Remake and Classic mode is basically "Hey man, we know you're just here for the story, and that also you are probably a 35 y o Millennial who is maybe a bit slow these days, it's all good :) "

    Control is like "Fuck you, die 275 times before you can get the one damn audio log you wanted in the first place."

    So I really do say that if you're on PC, just bite the bullet and use a PC trainer / cheat engine / whatever; if you're on Console I guess it'll be YouTube. Which sucks. Remedy, make your damn game more accessible.

    See You Space Cowboy: a ttrpg about sad space bounty hunters
    https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Finally got round to the Foundation. I love everything about the world building and lore, but I fucking hate the combat. I despise it. It is terrible. Enemies whos main ability is dodging the things thrown by your main ability, guns do shit damage, and yeah, hate it. It almost puts me off playing tbh, I was close to watching a Youtube playthrough. And it's not that I don't like action/combat, I played DMC3 to death, but the combat in this game is awful in every way. I hope they find a better way to handle it in the next game.

    I straight up got a PC trainer and gave myself infinite health with no regrets. I desperately want them to introduce a "Myst-Mode" where there's 0 combat, just puzzles and lore. but man they REALLY wanted it to be a Souls-like :\

    This is especially jarring now that I'm playing FFVII Remake and Classic mode is basically "Hey man, we know you're just here for the story, and that also you are probably a 35 y o Millennial who is maybe a bit slow these days, it's all good :) "

    Control is like "Fuck you, die 275 times before you can get the one damn audio log you wanted in the first place."

    So I really do say that if you're on PC, just bite the bullet and use a PC trainer / cheat engine / whatever; if you're on Console I guess it'll be YouTube. Which sucks. Remedy, make your damn game more accessible.

    Hey! I'm a 35 y o millennial. It's not too hard, I probably would improve by using a controlled instead of the keyboard, the leap between keys is too hard to remember under duress, but it's not even the complexity. Your main ability outside of your gun is throwing shit and in the Foundation, off the top of my head, there's at least 5 different enemies who will phase out of the way when you throw stuff at them unless you're immediately in their face. Which means every fight is just slowly trying to make your way towards someone in the air and slowly whittling down their health (to be fair some of them are one hit if you can actually hit them) while dodging the new enemies who throw a rebar at you. It's so badly designed that i can't believe they leaned so heavily on it in the DLC. The flying ones who amass and throw shit back at you are the worst because they just deal ridiculous damage. The fight with the Film Camera boss was terrible for this reason.

    I'd quite happily be a glass cannon, throw 10 times as many enemies at me simultaneously and take away the CONSTANT dodging and it would probably better. For all your powers in Control, there was never a time I felt actually powerful.

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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I skipped every optional boss in the regular game, so the DLC seeming to be based heavily around boss fights is a turnoff.

    There's only one boss. There's just a lot of hard combat rooms.

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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Finally got round to the Foundation. I love everything about the world building and lore, but I fucking hate the combat. I despise it. It is terrible. Enemies whos main ability is dodging the things thrown by your main ability, guns do shit damage, and yeah, hate it. It almost puts me off playing tbh, I was close to watching a Youtube playthrough. And it's not that I don't like action/combat, I played DMC3 to death, but the combat in this game is awful in every way. I hope they find a better way to handle it in the next game.

    I straight up got a PC trainer and gave myself infinite health with no regrets. I desperately want them to introduce a "Myst-Mode" where there's 0 combat, just puzzles and lore. but man they REALLY wanted it to be a Souls-like :\

    This is especially jarring now that I'm playing FFVII Remake and Classic mode is basically "Hey man, we know you're just here for the story, and that also you are probably a 35 y o Millennial who is maybe a bit slow these days, it's all good :) "

    Control is like "Fuck you, die 275 times before you can get the one damn audio log you wanted in the first place."

    So I really do say that if you're on PC, just bite the bullet and use a PC trainer / cheat engine / whatever; if you're on Console I guess it'll be YouTube. Which sucks. Remedy, make your damn game more accessible.
    Yeah, that's me. I died/wiped 52 times to Salvador, so I had no option other than to give up and ended up watching the rest of the game on YT.
    I'm not bad at video-games either, IMO. I've beaten plenty of difficult games. That whole boss fight just brought down what had been a really enjoyable game up until that point - I just wasn't having fun any more. :(

    The lack of a difficulty setting in this game is baffling in it's absence. More games should be like Spiderman on the PS4 - a great example of a developer making a game both accessible and fun for all.

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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited May 2020
    I didn't find the combat in this at all challenging, and died two or three times in my play through. I'm over 40, so I don't really buy the age argument. It's a matter of caring about being good at the combat. I agree they should have a story mode for people who really don't care, but I support their right to decide how difficult their game should be provided they do provide at least one accessibility option (which they did not in this case).

    Of course I play From games religiously, so it's entirely likely my brain is broken.

    GnomeTank on
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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    I've completed the Surge 2 four times and it buffs the enemies on each subsequent playthrough. Difficulty isn't a problem, it's just badly designed combat.

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    Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    Except I didn't find the combat to be badly designed at all? That I found it engaging and easy to parse, even if it was challenging on occasion?

    It's not like I'm particularly good at games. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Nioh vex me with my futile inability to progress in them. So why do I engage so well with Control and brick wall on those? Are they badly designed? Are they inaccessible?

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    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    Except I didn't find the combat to be badly designed at all? That I found it engaging and easy to parse, even if it was challenging on occasion?

    It's not like I'm particularly good at games. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and Nioh vex me with my futile inability to progress in them. So why do I engage so well with Control and brick wall on those? Are they badly designed? Are they inaccessible?

    everybody has strongly different ability levels across different games? I can do Kingdom Hearts 1 Sephiroth on Proud Mode in my *sleep* practically and other people find him very hard. I regularly do Arbitrations, triple Eidolon hunts, and Sorties in Warframe and break no sweat. Control meanwhile kicks my ass and I suck at it. Different strokes, different folks, that's just how it be... and games should be designed with that shit in mind, damn it. KH1 had an Easy Mode. In Warframe, you genuinely don't have to push yourself to the top tier of content if you just wanna dick around and shoot mans (something some players forget, but that's more a multiplayer game problem)

    There's literally no reason *not* to include a difficulty slider to make your game more accessible to folks other than being a dick. Putting one in means that more people will be willing to try and buy your game, because listen -- *most people suck at games*. AND THAT IS OKAY.

    See You Space Cowboy: a ttrpg about sad space bounty hunters
    https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
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    Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    edited May 2020
    I'm not disputing that idea. Difficulty should absolutely be on a slider, and people should be able to play games at their level no matter what level that is.

    I'm disputing this idea.
    Difficulty isn't a problem, it's just badly designed combat.

    So, are the Souls games badly designed? Is Nioh? Is The Surge? No. They're just not my thing. Control is my thing, and I don't find the combat in it badly designed at all.

    Johnny Chopsocky on
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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    It also kind of depends on your expectations and just sometimes not realizing a thing is possible. Like the quick-Launch that blindsides the floating psychic guys (such as Salvador). Or the fact that the floating/axe guys almost never dodge twice in a row, so if you don't hit them with your first Launched thing, if you follow up you'll usually clock them, which makes hitting them with your gun much easier.

    Speaking of Salvador, I found the adds to be the worst part of that fight, but the invisible-shrieking-ghost-things really struggle with stairs. If you beeline for the stairs to the roof, you get to have a private conversation with Salvador for a minute or two, at which point you just go back to ground level and the screamy ghosts have to go the whole way back.

    Control's combat feels very much like there's a "right" way to approach every situation, but it's not always immediately obvious.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Difficulty isn't a problem, it's just badly designed combat.

    So, are the Souls games badly designed? Is Nioh? Is The Surge? No. They're just not my thing. Control is my thing, and I don't find the combat in it badly designed at all.

    Eh, there's bad combat design in every one of the Soulsborne games, and the combat in The Surge games is mostly just simple and bland instead of bad. Every Soulsborne game has a minimum of one boss fight where you fight the camera more than the boss, at least a few bosses with a crazy high amount of bullshit on their side, and probably one or two bosses with a non-obvious way to trivialize them.

    I can't speak for Control, but yeah, the Soulsborne games have some crappy combat design elements.

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    GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII They wanna get my gold on the ceilingRegistered User regular
    Finally beat that dumb plant. I really wanted to get it my first go round, but after probably 10 attempts I decided to move on. Got a few extra skills and prime mods and didn’t have much trouble. Still a really annoying fight.

    The reason I hated the fridge boss so much is the goddamned holes in the arena. It’s really hard to see them and I would just suddenly fall through one after dodging a smash attack. And of course there is no auto save before the boss so I have to go all the way back to the entrance and here the same damn dialog.

    Distance not a big deal for fridge but the run back to the mirror boss was really stupid. Just auto save before a boss, it’s not that hard and makes dying much more tolerable.

    Battletag: Threeve#1501; PSN: Threeve703; Steam: 3eeve
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    jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Difficulty isn't a problem, it's just badly designed combat.

    So, are the Souls games badly designed? Is Nioh? Is The Surge? No. They're just not my thing. Control is my thing, and I don't find the combat in it badly designed at all.

    Eh, there's bad combat design in every one of the Soulsborne games, and the combat in The Surge games is mostly just simple and bland instead of bad. Every Soulsborne game has a minimum of one boss fight where you fight the camera more than the boss, at least a few bosses with a crazy high amount of bullshit on their side, and probably one or two bosses with a non-obvious way to trivialize them.

    I can't speak for Control, but yeah, the Soulsborne games have some crappy combat design elements.

    I would say the sometimes issues with the soulsborne games are more than outweighed by the fact the combat in each of them is some of the best in the genre (i.e. third person melee), flat out period.

    The lock-on issues with these games has been largely resolved in Sekiro, which did a much better job of it.

    Controls combat, once you got it down, is just as solid as anything else. You just can't sit still and pew pew dudes down, which I appreciate.

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    RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Finished Foundation a few days ago. Had some trouble with the end boss, so I went looking for some tips. Unsurprisingly, the tips boiled down to "run around, shoot with gun and use powers".

    But the one useful tip I saw suggested using a power I had never really used: shield dash. Bring up the shield and then use dash to smash into the enemy. Usually it should toss enemies back I guess, but for some you just move through them and still deal damage.

    Anyway, it's super useful and I hadn't used it until then. Never really used shield either. But it's pretty damn good!

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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    I finally got to this game as well! I appreciate the "boss fights are bad" mindset, at least the bonus bosses.
    Former wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the instant death holes. It would be better if they just did the "you take some damage and teleport back on the ground" thing.

    Anchor was a clever fight in general. I like that the breath weapon attacks go like clockwork, but at soon as the Hiss show up, it becomes a crapshoot if you could survive long enough for the final few attacks.

    Mold-1 was even worse, though it helped that I waited until like Chapter 8 to kill it. I spent a long time thinking I'm supposed to Launch the exploding mold in the heads, but it turns out my overpowered Pierce killed it in like 3 hits. That attack where it poisons the whole ground still sucked though.

    In spite of it all, I overall enjoyed the game. I like the "SCP-with the serial numbers filed off" feel, I loved getting Levitation, and I enjoyed the general lore and media. I'm probably going to get that song in the bottom of the Research sector. I feel like it would be better if it worked like a true Metroidvania, and instead of the Service Weapon forms you would get a lot more psychic powers that let you move around better.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    What are people’s thoughts on the DLC?

    I played through the Ganges on PS now and loved it, but now the DLC would cost me forty because I need to buy the game. Worth it?

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
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    DratatooDratatoo Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Finally got round to the Foundation. I love everything about the world building and lore, but I fucking hate the combat. I despise it. It is terrible. Enemies whos main ability is dodging the things thrown by your main ability, guns do shit damage, and yeah, hate it. It almost puts me off playing tbh, I was close to watching a Youtube playthrough. And it's not that I don't like action/combat, I played DMC3 to death, but the combat in this game is awful in every way. I hope they find a better way to handle it in the next game.

    I straight up got a PC trainer and gave myself infinite health with no regrets. I desperately want them to introduce a "Myst-Mode" where there's 0 combat, just puzzles and lore. but man they REALLY wanted it to be a Souls-like :\

    This is especially jarring now that I'm playing FFVII Remake and Classic mode is basically "Hey man, we know you're just here for the story, and that also you are probably a 35 y o Millennial who is maybe a bit slow these days, it's all good :) "

    Control is like "Fuck you, die 275 times before you can get the one damn audio log you wanted in the first place."

    So I really do say that if you're on PC, just bite the bullet and use a PC trainer / cheat engine / whatever; if you're on Console I guess it'll be YouTube. Which sucks. Remedy, make your damn game more accessible.

    Hey! I'm a 35 y o millennial. It's not too hard, I probably would improve by using a controlled instead of the keyboard, the leap between keys is too hard to remember under duress, but it's not even the complexity. Your main ability outside of your gun is throwing shit and in the Foundation, off the top of my head, there's at least 5 different enemies who will phase out of the way when you throw stuff at them unless you're immediately in their face. Which means every fight is just slowly trying to make your way towards someone in the air and slowly whittling down their health (to be fair some of them are one hit if you can actually hit them) while dodging the new enemies who throw a rebar at you. It's so badly designed that i can't believe they leaned so heavily on it in the DLC. The flying ones who amass and throw shit back at you are the worst because they just deal ridiculous damage. The fight with the Film Camera boss was terrible for this reason.

    I'd quite happily be a glass cannon, throw 10 times as many enemies at me simultaneously and take away the CONSTANT dodging and it would probably better. For all your powers in Control, there was never a time I felt actually powerful.

    I would recommend rebinding the keys instead. The most used powers and functions went to my 5 button mouse and I endend up ~with this config (mouse 4 - "melee"; mouse 5 - "throw stuff", middle mouse - "dodge", I think Q is shield and F is "take over enemies" and e is "use"). I don't have a problem with using the controller in action games, but I would recommend sticking to mouse and keyboard because this game requires you often to aim vertically (aiming at targets below or above you and alternating between them) and I hate doing this with a controller.

    Edit: I disagree about the feel. Get up and fly, quick-dodge incomming stuff, rip parts of the wall out, throw stuff back killing the lower tier minions while taking potshots at the heavy hitters, holding the shield up to get rid of rapid fire and thrown stuff, throw the shield back at the enemy, do a ground slam. When you get all the movement abilities and chain them together, the basic gameplay is great.

    Camera boss: Most of the flying enemies on the opposite cart are killed by the environment, if you can keep them in the same spot. The flying enemies in the narrow tunnel can be taken out by throwing stuff. The small fries on the carts I took out with the grenade launcher equivalent. What I struggled with was the last boss itself and that was mostly due its HP.

    What bugs me is the uninteresting enemy design and the partly boring level design. And often the game can't decide what it want to be. An fast paced action game, a mystery thriller, a "voyage incredible", a souls like, a "open world" game with crafting. Many times the gameplay elements don't fit quite well or don't offer much incentives to try them. I also get the feeling Remedy keeps dangling the "but its connected to Alan Wake" carrot in front of us, to keep players engaged.

    If you've read the background lore there could be so much interesting stuff they could have incoperated and shown the player, be it a flashback or *gasp* a playable sequence. Instead we got text - and the sad thing is the text is often more interesting than the stuff I was doing ingame.

    Dratatoo on
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    AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    The lore is definitely more interesting than the combat. I'd take 90% less combat for an equal replacement of lore and bizarre sequences.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    I mean, Alan Wake pops up in the base game several times (once as an Easter egg), and there's new DLC that is explicitly tied to Alan Wake. It's no longer "We can't legally say that, but you know what we mean".

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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    What are people’s thoughts on the DLC?

    I played through the Ganges on PS now and loved it, but now the DLC would cost me forty because I need to buy the game. Worth it?

    It's more of the same. The time gap between the game and the DLC means my combat skills atrophied, and I had a real hard time with a few parts. Foundation (the first DLC) is kind of middle of the road compared to the rest of the game's story/setting.

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    RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    I can't recommend the DLC based on Foundation. It's not bad, but it's not special. I hope AWE is better.

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    CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    In the DLC's favor I will say that none of the fights felt as bullshitty as the worst boss fights in the base game. There's a couple of fights in the DLC that were difficult but it was more a matter of figuring out the right strategy and then executing it, versus some of the base-game bosses where it was a matter of "do absolutely nothing wrong and hope that random chance doesn't decide to fuck you anyway".

    The level design in the DLC feels less interesting than the base game, though. I didn't explore super thoroughly like I did playing through the base game and when I'd finished the story I didn't especially want to go wandering around trying to find all the secrets.

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    UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    Yeah sounds like a pass until I can get it cheaper. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
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    NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    Yeah sounds like a pass until I can get it cheaper. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

    FYI the season pass counts as a “game” if you have one of those epic vouchers still, so you can snag both DLC’s for £10.

    Personally I really liked the DLC, it’s goes into more depth about
    What exactly the oldest house is (Yggdrasil) what the service weapon is (Excalibur) and how the Board controls the bearau through a kind of mind control that Jesses seems to be immune to, exactly like the hiss. It’s also notable that when she decided to start being less obident to the bord Emily agrees, likely due to the HRA. It’s very obviously sequel set up, where the board will be the antagonist for the sequel (hopefully)

    I didn’t find it all that difficult, but I finished the base game and then immediately bought and played the DLC.

    In terms of the combat, it felt hard at the start, but once I got the hang of how the telekinesis worked, the game was pretty easy.

    Even the bosses were a case of maxing energy and throw cost reduction skills. Then you just spam telekinesis. Every boss has a specific object that does massive damage if thrown at them. Once you get all your powers every fight becomes pretty trivial doing this. With the dudes who dodge you, either pull an object in that’s behind them, throw one from the side or just go point blank, they can’t dodge any of those.

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    AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    The dodge dudes, just throw twice. The second will hit them.

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    Commodore75Commodore75 gothenburg.seRegistered User regular
    Regaring the Mission Select on the main menu,
    does it reset the main story save to when I first attempted the mission? Or did they fix that?
    I googled but only found answers from the games release.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    This mold boss is dumb.

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    GreenGreen Stick around. I'm full of bad ideas.Registered User regular
    Got this on Xbox for $30, and it has slowly wormed it's way into all of my mindbrain

    I absolutely love this setting and this lore, finishing up these last few Achievements before tackling the Jukebox Expeditions

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Yeah speaking of those Expeditions... tips for them? I only just barely beat the first tier of Expeditions after a number of failed attempts.

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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Yeah speaking of those Expeditions... tips for them? I only just barely beat the first tier of Expeditions after a number of failed attempts.

    They don't mention this directly in the game, but the Expeditions are a post-release DLC. If you're still in the main game, then you are way below the expected power level to reasonably engage with them-- they designed it for players who have end-game augments and maximum weapon upgrades.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Even after going through Foundation, I couldn't finish even the lowest tier of Expeditions.

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    OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    I had end-game augments and the first tier of Expeditions was barely beatable

    The idea that I would continue to do that, to get better gear, when that is already the hardest thing I will ever have to do, is absolutely baffling to me

    It is the most I’ve ever felt like a developer has made something purely out of spite

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    After trying the first level of Expeditions again and again and again before beating it, every time getting stupid negative modifiers... my first attempt of a Level 2 Expedition gives me +100% weapon damage and a neutral modifier where both Jesse and enemy Launches were 100% faster. I beat it with 9 minutes left on the clock.

    DarkPrimus on
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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    When's that Alan Wake DLC supposed to drop?

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    When's that Alan Wake DLC supposed to drop?

    AWE is still listed as "Summer 2020" on the Control website. Summer technically ends on September 22nd.

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