I'm also not entirely comfortable with a read of the story where Jaina would be partially "at fault" for the bombing of Theramore. Lore-wise, Theramore had military support for three reasons prior to Cataclysm - Dealing with Grimtotem antagonizers, dealing with rebels who wanted to go to war with the Horde, and searching for the kidnapped king. It was only after the Horde leadership was given to Garrosh and he began his expansionist campaign that Theramore became a staging point against the Horde. And I don't really know that you can place any blame for Theramore on that? Garrosh was an expansionist orc supremacist. Just staying neutral and hoping that you'll be ignored is not really a viable tactic. I mean christ, you go in to the Siege of Orgrimmar and you find that they've been keeping Theramore civilians captive as prisoners all this time, torturing them and making them fight one another. That kind of shows how fucked Garrosh's Horde is!
I know that the Alliance writing has been very frustrating for some of you but turning to reads like that just seems very nihilistic and uncomfortable.
There are two issues being conflated here I think.
The first is: Did Theramore "deserve" to be attacked? It was functioning as the supply point and home base for the expeditionary force that ended up firebombing Taurajo and driving the refugees into the Quilboar. By that point yes, it became a valid military target.
The second is: Did Theramore "deserve" to be bombed? I don't think anybody but the biggest Garrosh fanboys and girls were happy with that. It continued a string of events where Horde "has to" rely on super weapons to get anything done.
i dunno man i feel like this thread has had a whole bunch of horde players upset with the horde's actions
If by horde players you mean they play alliance and in many cases just never did horde side at all. Then yes that is my experience. It doesn't really change my point though.
It's all good fun when alliance does some war crimes. They're the good guys so it's not evil. The writing and players reactions seems to reflect that.
oh, you caught us, we're not horde mains at all, we've been false flag alliance spies all along!!!
with the explicit aim (Sylvanas' direct orders) to murder everyone
so that they can be raised as undead
the moral greyness is just staggering
There's a quest line with Nathanos and Lillian Voss on the Horde side where you sneak over to Kul Tiras and
murder a guard captain so Lillian and Nathanos can bring her back as a Forsaken, because she knows where the body of a hero of the second war is buried, who they also want to bring back as a Forsaken. Their logic is turning her into a Forsaken will make her more cooperative in that endeavour.
with the explicit aim (Sylvanas' direct orders) to murder everyone
so that they can be raised as undead
the moral greyness is just staggering
Two things about this of note.
One, they retconned the orders before release to say to minimize civilian casualties. That it ever said otherwise is an embarrassment, however.
Two, it's apparently retaliation against a significant logistical target in response to an attack against Warfang. Which was actually the doing of Lord Stormsong and his cult, so they just fucked up either way.
Even with that, the NPCs are cackling cartoon villains intentionally tormenting civilians throughout the area, so it's still a complete farce.
tl;dr fuck every single aspect of the faction war writing
What's Warfang? I'm semi annoyed that i have to choose between gearing my main into usefulness and getting the 50% of the story locked into leveling my horde characters (which i want to do eventually anyway but i don't have time to do it all any time soon).
Even assuming the two of you, do you qualify as a majority?
Does it matter to my point?
Doing the UC scenario on my horde characters, there were always several people shitting in chat on Sylvannas after she brings up Saurfang's kid. Anecdotal, but there you go. I'm assuming another several were totally with her. And I'm assuming the remaining 60% don't care one way or another and are just coming next/accept until a purple pops out.
Even assuming the two of you, do you qualify as a majority?
Does it matter to my point?
your point is a random anecdote so our two random anecdotes overpower it and eat it
It's all good fun when alliance does some war crimes. They're the good guys so it's not evil. The writing and players reactions seems to reflect that.
It's not really subjective. The quest is written as a joke, all the dwarves involved think it's hilarious.
And...no players seem to give a crap.
But you guys should take it as a personal insult some more.
And here I thought there were way more horde players in this thread! Unless we get a poll, it's all anecdotal. As an alliance player who has defended the alliance actions in the past as reactions to the horde atrocities, I think it's a little silly for you to brush off those arguments as being in bad faith because we think "they're the good guys so it's not evil."
I haven't gotten to whatever dwarf quest you're talking about though. I just finished Drustvar and am 116, working on Stormsong next.
Mythic hellfire, that first encounter is the hardest in the whole place to solo.
If you're ranged or have a lot of mobility it's straight forward enough and then you're only problems in there might come from having to get rid of your pets so you're technically the only thing the bosses can fight.
But for my dk...I don't think it's possible at the moment. Even stacking what few movement boosts I can get.
Very frustrating.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Was browsing over mmo-champ and apparently there was a dev/lead writer interview, summary:
What the Horde stands for has changed over time. Is it a group driven by honor and courage or a disparate collection of outcasts that nobody will align themselves with.
Battle for Azeroth is an opportunity to look at both sides that have made up the Horde storylines throughout the years and pull them together.
It may be a chance for the Horde to look inward and become something new and stronger.
Sylvanas and Saurfang are embodying the other aspects of what the Horde was.
To get to the future of the Horde, we have to face the Horde’s past.
The Alliance has its share of disparity and there's going to be a self-examination of what the Alliance is about and how they want to behave.
Does the Alliance want to get revenge on the Horde, or do they want to build a better world?
There is room for what the Alliance and Horde represent to evolve and change and for their relationship to change.
Player's identity is very much tied to their faction and the things they have done for it, so it wouldn't be something the team would take away lightly.
This expansion focuses on shaping what the factions mean in the world and how they interact with one another.
So it seems to lack a lot of self awareness about both factions as they stand. There's nothing indicative of disparity in the alliance or how they'll behave or react to anything, to me they look like they're just writing themselves at this point.
They're not going to get rid of factions, The "Face the horde's past" is...well it feels a bit insulting honestly. We did that with Garrosh.
Are we going to have to go through and purge each horde faction per expansion going forward? Gallywix next?
We did this whole looking inwards and becoming better, sylvanas entire arc was doing that when she became warchief...and they just threw it away.
I'm trying to parse that quote and like.
Ugh.
You're right. They already did this, explicitly, with Garrosh. And as shitty as it was executed, it at least made sense for HIM to be the one that became enraptured with the glories of his peoples' past.
What past is it that needs to be confronted that Sylvanas could possibly represent? Nearest thing I can think of is the orc conquests in Outland and the butchering of the Draenei, but that... doesn't... make sense as a parallel. The orcs were twisted mind-slaves to demon blood, whereas Sylvanas just really doesn't want to die and seeks to impose a twisted ideology on the living. Vets like Saurfang already intensely regret their part in those actions, and most of the rest of the orc population wasn't even FUCKING ALIVE at that point. So that's not it.
Is it something that happened in WoW? The Wrathgate? The bombing of Theramore? Insertothereventthattheplayerhasnoagencyoverhere? Because as a player of the Horde from BC to WoD, pretty much everyone was fucking annoyed every time something like that happened, because it reinforced a view of the Horde that was diametrically opposed to what attracted them to the faction in the first place. The continued dissonance between what the writers were trying to tell us was a part of the Horde now, and what we had formed as the idea of what the Horde was based on the expansions and games before it, was what eventually led me to faction switch to Alliance.
It's just so frustrating to have a writer say that the Horde needs to confront, effectively, the sins of its past - when it's the sins the writers wrote, but it's the players that have to deal with the bullshit. Bullshit that they never asked for, never wanted, never supported, and never had any agency in.
And while it is true of pretty much any MMO that the player is a bystander, a writer should endeavor to not undermine the illusion that they aren't. To that end, you shouldn't wildly change what the faction the player has chosen represents, which they mention... ... But then they keep doing it anyway?
Sorry, I know it's ranty, but I'm so fed up with Blizzard's writing at this point. They do great cutscenes, but their long-term narratives are just fucking terrible.
TBF, I don't think the Horde really "dealt" with the fallout of Garrosh's actions. But that's on the writers/producers out-of-game more than the Horde in-game, I think, with Siege being the last raid and then, whoop, off to alternate Draenor! That was really narratively atrocious, both from a reader/player point of view and from a writer's point of view, because your whole story's suspended. There's no real climax. There's no falling action. There's no resolution.
And then when Garrosh is finally finally defeated, it's just via cutscene at the end of a quest in Nagrand (I think?). And you and Thrall just walk away, cuz now Gul'dan and whoever's the REAL big bad of the expansion. There's no reconciliation to the genocide that Garrosh was attempting to perpetrate. The story just dangles away.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
The orcs were twisted mind-slaves to demon blood
While technically true, Warlords of Draenor showed us that the orcs go on an atrocity-filled war campaign when given any advantage. Demon blood, goblin tech, doesn't matter. The orcs just like killing shit, the only thing that ever holds them back is that they're too big of a pussies to go up against an equal or greater foe.
Thanks for this interesting correction to the orc canon, Warlords of Draenor, you're the best.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I went to try out my balance spec druid tonight for a bit, see how they changed. And... I don't like it. At all. I miss the balance swinging bar. Building up a rage bar (again, Jesus wtf Blizzard) is boring as shit.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
The flight point labelled "Freehold" is not the correct flight point for Freehold's dungeon portal.
I generally can't get excited about anything Alliance side, myself. Oh, the humans are allying with more humans and "close enoughs to humans", and also those humans are a very thinly veiled allegory for Britain at their height as a maritime empire(and at their peak racist). Cheahs, luv!
Most of it is about Jaina, in the end, which is somewhat irritating if you, like me, think that 1) she was right to let her father die and not commit genocide, 2) that Theramore was partially her fault for letting the Alliance use it as a staging point, which even under Thrall was a red line, and 3) maybe locking up all Sunreavers because one agent did something bad is letting your racism show a little bit.
What's double irritating is that the game seems to be bending over backwards to try and portray her as being a Cassandra, and that racism and genocide are totes the right answer.
Finished Drustvar and the second expedition thing. Tiragarde Sound or Stormsong Valley next tho?
They're both good. Sound is a bit more fun and straight-forward, while Stormsong is the Land of A Billion Quest Hubs, where if you just want to keep shotgunning a ton of quests it'll keep them flowing fast and furious.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Anyone know if doing Island Expeditions at under 120 counts towards your weekly goal? The table isn't showing my weekly tracker, but I'm only 116 on my alt. Just wondering if when I hit 120 if I will have credit for the two islands I've run.
Finished Drustvar and the second expedition thing. Tiragarde Sound or Stormsong Valley next tho?
So then!
I did drust, sound, valley because some nerds on the internet said they get easier in that order.
I suppose those weird mobs with weird debuffs could be awkward if you're 118-120.
Having said that:
The saurolisks in valley when you ding 120 are rediculous. I could barely take 1 on.
Also, Valley has a whole quest line dedicated to the darkest dungeon.
Anyone know if doing Island Expeditions at under 120 counts towards your weekly goal? The table isn't showing my weekly tracker, but I'm only 116 on my alt. Just wondering if when I hit 120 if I will have credit for the two islands I've run.
I just went and checked. The don't think so. I'm at 20000 azerite after doing 3 normals and 1 heroic, 2 when I was <120. Pretty sure that doesn't adds up. (6000x3 + 9000) It doesn't really add up the other way either though (9000 + 6000?)
Finished Drustvar and the second expedition thing. Tiragarde Sound or Stormsong Valley next tho?
So then!
I did drust, sound, valley because some nerds on the internet said they get easier in that order.
I suppose those weird mobs with weird debuffs could be awkward if you're 118-120.
Having said that:
The saurolisks in valley when you ding 120 are rediculous. I could barely take 1 on.
Also, Valley has a whole quest line dedicated to the darkest dungeon.
Saurolisks have double HP for some reason. JUST the regular "saurolisk"s. Not "saurolisk patriarch"s or "saurolisk matriarch"s.
Also, Monstrous Crabs in the Darkest Dungeon quest-line/area.
island expeditions are kind of bunk. The mobs have tons of hp, but the enemy NPCs don't really get any tougher. So as long as you can keep them locked down you'll win, it just takes forver
I remember them being built as scenario-esque, and man so far they have definitely missed the mark.
Posts
There are two issues being conflated here I think.
The first is: Did Theramore "deserve" to be attacked? It was functioning as the supply point and home base for the expeditionary force that ended up firebombing Taurajo and driving the refugees into the Quilboar. By that point yes, it became a valid military target.
The second is: Did Theramore "deserve" to be bombed? I don't think anybody but the biggest Garrosh fanboys and girls were happy with that. It continued a string of events where Horde "has to" rely on super weapons to get anything done.
Slight point of contention. Kul Tiras was never neutral in relation to the Horde.
oh, you caught us, we're not horde mains at all, we've been false flag alliance spies all along!!!
Does it matter to my point?
There's a quest line with Nathanos and Lillian Voss on the Horde side where you sneak over to Kul Tiras and
your point is a random anecdote so our two random anecdotes overpower it and eat it
It's not really subjective. The quest is written as a joke, all the dwarves involved think it's hilarious.
And...no players seem to give a crap.
But you guys should take it as a personal insult some more.
Don't be a goose.
If you're Alliance, the Knights of Arcadia are accepting people on Dark Iron and are a pretty good group!
Horde have a guild on Cho'Gall
What's Warfang? I'm semi annoyed that i have to choose between gearing my main into usefulness and getting the 50% of the story locked into leveling my horde characters (which i want to do eventually anyway but i don't have time to do it all any time soon).
Doing the UC scenario on my horde characters, there were always several people shitting in chat on Sylvannas after she brings up Saurfang's kid. Anecdotal, but there you go. I'm assuming another several were totally with her. And I'm assuming the remaining 60% don't care one way or another and are just coming next/accept until a purple pops out.
And here I thought there were way more horde players in this thread! Unless we get a poll, it's all anecdotal. As an alliance player who has defended the alliance actions in the past as reactions to the horde atrocities, I think it's a little silly for you to brush off those arguments as being in bad faith because we think "they're the good guys so it's not evil."
I haven't gotten to whatever dwarf quest you're talking about though. I just finished Drustvar and am 116, working on Stormsong next.
orc soldiers and goblin engineers are attacking mole machines stopping dark irons from leaving them to establish a landing point
then you turn into a lava elemental and run over 200 goblin engineers
Conspiracy or coincidence?
Sounds good, whoever's on the guild on Dark Iron will probably see someone asking for an invite soon.
Steam: CavilatRest
If you're ranged or have a lot of mobility it's straight forward enough and then you're only problems in there might come from having to get rid of your pets so you're technically the only thing the bosses can fight.
But for my dk...I don't think it's possible at the moment. Even stacking what few movement boosts I can get.
Very frustrating.
I've been told that people should queue for specific dungeons, not random.
I wouldn't know that. As a tank, it's instant pop for me every time.
I'm trying to parse that quote and like.
Ugh.
You're right. They already did this, explicitly, with Garrosh. And as shitty as it was executed, it at least made sense for HIM to be the one that became enraptured with the glories of his peoples' past.
What past is it that needs to be confronted that Sylvanas could possibly represent? Nearest thing I can think of is the orc conquests in Outland and the butchering of the Draenei, but that... doesn't... make sense as a parallel. The orcs were twisted mind-slaves to demon blood, whereas Sylvanas just really doesn't want to die and seeks to impose a twisted ideology on the living. Vets like Saurfang already intensely regret their part in those actions, and most of the rest of the orc population wasn't even FUCKING ALIVE at that point. So that's not it.
Is it something that happened in WoW? The Wrathgate? The bombing of Theramore? Insertothereventthattheplayerhasnoagencyoverhere? Because as a player of the Horde from BC to WoD, pretty much everyone was fucking annoyed every time something like that happened, because it reinforced a view of the Horde that was diametrically opposed to what attracted them to the faction in the first place. The continued dissonance between what the writers were trying to tell us was a part of the Horde now, and what we had formed as the idea of what the Horde was based on the expansions and games before it, was what eventually led me to faction switch to Alliance.
It's just so frustrating to have a writer say that the Horde needs to confront, effectively, the sins of its past - when it's the sins the writers wrote, but it's the players that have to deal with the bullshit. Bullshit that they never asked for, never wanted, never supported, and never had any agency in.
And while it is true of pretty much any MMO that the player is a bystander, a writer should endeavor to not undermine the illusion that they aren't. To that end, you shouldn't wildly change what the faction the player has chosen represents, which they mention... ... But then they keep doing it anyway?
Sorry, I know it's ranty, but I'm so fed up with Blizzard's writing at this point. They do great cutscenes, but their long-term narratives are just fucking terrible.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
And then when Garrosh is finally finally defeated, it's just via cutscene at the end of a quest in Nagrand (I think?). And you and Thrall just walk away, cuz now Gul'dan and whoever's the REAL big bad of the expansion. There's no reconciliation to the genocide that Garrosh was attempting to perpetrate. The story just dangles away.
While technically true, Warlords of Draenor showed us that the orcs go on an atrocity-filled war campaign when given any advantage. Demon blood, goblin tech, doesn't matter. The orcs just like killing shit, the only thing that ever holds them back is that they're too big of a pussies to go up against an equal or greater foe.
Thanks for this interesting correction to the orc canon, Warlords of Draenor, you're the best.
This bothers me a lot.
you can also open the old guild frame by typing something like /guildwindow or /guild in the chat command line I think
Discovered that I probably shouldn't have taken the NPC conversation at the end of the dungeon out...
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Pretty much ended as expected.
They're both good. Sound is a bit more fun and straight-forward, while Stormsong is the Land of A Billion Quest Hubs, where if you just want to keep shotgunning a ton of quests it'll keep them flowing fast and furious.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
So then!
I did drust, sound, valley because some nerds on the internet said they get easier in that order.
I suppose those weird mobs with weird debuffs could be awkward if you're 118-120.
Having said that:
The saurolisks in valley when you ding 120 are rediculous. I could barely take 1 on.
Also, Valley has a whole quest line dedicated to the darkest dungeon.
I just went and checked. The don't think so. I'm at 20000 azerite after doing 3 normals and 1 heroic, 2 when I was <120. Pretty sure that doesn't adds up. (6000x3 + 9000) It doesn't really add up the other way either though (9000 + 6000?)
Saurolisks have double HP for some reason. JUST the regular "saurolisk"s. Not "saurolisk patriarch"s or "saurolisk matriarch"s.
Also, Monstrous Crabs in the Darkest Dungeon quest-line/area.
Unsure if these are bugs or what.
I remember them being built as scenario-esque, and man so far they have definitely missed the mark.