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[Board Games] aren't worth playing until you add at least five expansions

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    SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Fairchild wrote: »
    We played a 4 player game of Root on Tabletop Simulator tonight.

    My goodness there is a lot of copyright violation going on with TTS. It must be hosted on a derelict freighter floating in the Black Sea, otherwise Disney, Wizards of the Coast, and Games Workshop would have sued 'Berserk Games' out of existence by now.

    The game has had Print and Play versions hosted up on Boardgamegeek for more than 6 months with the express permission of the designer.

    Also I don't view it as copyright violation when I own the game (Edit: in fact, trying it out on TTS for free was what convinced me to buy it!). If companies want a slice of the pie, they usually just make official DLC for Tabletop simulator for people to buy.

    Spawnbroker on
    Steam: Spawnbroker
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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Tabletop Simulator and VASSAL both exist in the grey area that game companies have recognized as being more helpful to sales than harmful.

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    FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    There's nothing Grey about it, copyright theft is copyright theft.

    Many game companies have decided that it's not worth the cost and trouble to pursue legal action, but that's a different question entirely. Disney and Games Workshop are usually VERY aggressive about defending their copyrights, however, so the fact that so much of their stolen material is on TTS servers makes me believe that TTS' hosting is beyond their legal reach.

    Fairchild on
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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    There's nothing Grey about it, copyright theft is copyright theft.

    Many game companies have decided that it's not worth the cost and trouble to pursue legal action, but that's a different question entirely. Disney and Games Workshop are usually VERY aggressive about defending their copyrights, however, so the fact that so much of their stolen material is on TTS servers makes me believe that TTS' hosting is beyond their legal reach.

    Literally nothing is beyond Disney and GW's reach.

    They don't care.

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    FremFrem Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Fairchild wrote: »
    We played a 4 player game of Root on Tabletop Simulator tonight.

    My goodness there is a lot of copyright violation going on with TTS. It must be hosted on a derelict freighter floating in the Black Sea, otherwise Disney, Wizards of the Coast, and Games Workshop would have sued 'Berserk Games' out of existence by now.

    I gather the situation is more or less, "we're not thrilled about this, but it's not quite the same use case as physical products, and we don't have digital editions, and some people use these to try games out before buying them, and we don't want to upset fans."

    I wish more publishers would release their games as official DLC, but maybe they don't want to legitimatize it any more than they have to.
    Fairchild wrote: »
    There's nothing Grey about it, copyright theft is copyright theft.

    There's a little bit of grey area in the "spirit of the law" sense. Star Wars Destiny folks at my LGS use it to play against each other during the week and experiment with decks between game nights. Using it to play a game you own feels different, somehow.

    Frem on
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    CesareBCesareB Registered User regular
    Frem wrote: »
    Fairchild wrote: »
    We played a 4 player game of Root on Tabletop Simulator tonight.

    My goodness there is a lot of copyright violation going on with TTS. It must be hosted on a derelict freighter floating in the Black Sea, otherwise Disney, Wizards of the Coast, and Games Workshop would have sued 'Berserk Games' out of existence by now.

    I gather the situation is more or less, "we're not thrilled about this, but it's not quite the same use case as physical products, and we don't have digital editions, and some people use these to try games out before buying them, and we don't want to upset fans."

    I wish more publishers would release their games as official DLC, but maybe they don't want to legitimatize it any more than they have to.
    Fairchild wrote: »
    There's nothing Grey about it, copyright theft is copyright theft.

    There's a little bit of grey area in the "spirit of the law" sense. Star Wars Destiny folks at my LGS use it to play against each other during the week and experiment with decks between game nights. Using it to play a game you own feels different, somehow.

    That is a perfectly reasonable argument for why many (most?) of the people using the program aren't violating any moral or legal rules but that doesn't really speak to the legality of what TTS itself is doing.

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    Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    Founder of Gloomhaven is impressive in how in punching out the tokens and bagging things I've generated substantially more volume than can be contained in the box. It could really use an insert, as I've had to hide some of the baggies under the trench.

    Also, it provides a very strange number of bags. 4 large, 10 small. I could not work out the intention

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
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    FuselageFuselage Oosik Jumpship LoungeRegistered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Fuselage was warned for this.
    It may be apples and oranges since it's RPG books compared to physical board games, but I actively pirate the hell out of RPGs I'm interested in. Big studio, indie, whatever.

    The flip side is that all said I've now spent hundreds of dollars filling a bookcase with those same games and stupidly continue to back Kickstarter projects. Availability only helps the publisher get my money, in my case. Hell, if RPG publishers put a beta or playtest kit of their game on Roll20 for money with sheets and stuff set up, I bet those would sell like hot cakes too.

    Tube on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Games aren't copyrightable. But the art and names/setting is under copyright. So you could make a 1 for 1 copy of Monopoly's game mechanics, and so long as you aren't outright calling it "Monopoly" and having the same art and streets there isn't much Hasbro can do about it.

    Lots of TTS games use the original game's name and assets though, so they wouldn't be covered.

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    Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Games aren't copyrightable. But the art and names/setting is under copyright. So you could make a 1 for 1 copy of Monopoly's game mechanics, and so long as you aren't outright calling it "Monopoly" and having the same art and streets there isn't much Hasbro can do about it.

    Hasbro have an excellent track record of shutting down Monopoly knock offs that don't use the name or assets

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
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    InfidelInfidel Heretic Registered User regular
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Games aren't copyrightable. But the art and names/setting is under copyright. So you could make a 1 for 1 copy of Monopoly's game mechanics, and so long as you aren't outright calling it "Monopoly" and having the same art and streets there isn't much Hasbro can do about it.

    Hasbro have an excellent track record of shutting down Monopoly knock offs that don't use the name or assets

    They are actually producing a bajillion versions with names and assets that you probably are similar to!

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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    I’m pretty sure I heard that GW slapped down a TTS version of Shadespire so they aren’t unaware.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Oh man. I just had an amazing game of Cosmic Encounter. I was playing as the Love, so even though I’ve won every single game we played this weekend everybody either wrote me off this round or was happy for me to be around since we also had a Warpish player, so anything to get ships out of the warp was welcome.

    So the first couple of turns I flew under the radar, making negotiations for foreign colonies without an issue. By my turn (I went second in the order) was over I already had 3 foreign colonies and was still not a target. I was chosen as defense on the third turn, but I was out of encounter cards, so I used my trump card: the Pentaform flare, which lets me draw two flare cards and change my alien race to one of them.

    I drew the Disease and the Miser, and chose Disease. As everybody became increasingly more alarmed (I had just negotiated a fourth foreign colony), the third player drew the first player as destiny, I immediately used my power to spread in his system, and won the game.

    We literally only had three turns before I won. The fourth player (Macron) didn’t even have a turn before it was all over.

    joshofalltrades on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Games aren't copyrightable. But the art and names/setting is under copyright. So you could make a 1 for 1 copy of Monopoly's game mechanics, and so long as you aren't outright calling it "Monopoly" and having the same art and streets there isn't much Hasbro can do about it.

    Lots of TTS games use the original game's name and assets though, so they wouldn't be covered.

    Board game mechanics aren't copyrightable. The board games themselves certainly are. You cannot take literally the same game as someone else and just make your own art and call it a day. You have to have some sort of significant alteration to it, otherwise whoever did the mechanics before you can justifiably call you out for doing a knockoff that dilutes their brand, which is their board game release that already has a copyright on it and everything.

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    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    The guys who made the Bang! Card game sued a knockoff game that replaced the cowboy theme with... Chinese characters, I think? And they lost.

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    FryFry Registered User regular
    Finally got Captain Sonar to the table today, and it was everything I hoped it could be. Still haven't technically played it myself though (we had nine, and since literally none of us had played, I sat out to explain rules and keep things running). After the first game, we took a quick break to refill snacks and drinks and everyone was furiously discussing strategy and things they could have done better among their crew, so we dove back in for a second game. And then a third!

    Best moment for me was during the third game, one crew was moving extremely quickly, and had to stop to surface their sub. All four players dutifully drew their outlines and initialed, and then the engineer started erasing before verifying with the opposing engineer, so they had to pass the sheet back down to the far end of the table to draw the outlines again. Oops! Also great was a radio operator unironically saying "their movement pattern doesn't conform to any known configuration" when they missed a few opposing moves and as a result had the opposing sub doubling back on itself.

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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    Oh man. I just had an amazing game of Cosmic Encounter. I was playing as the Love, so even though I’ve won every single game we played this weekend everybody either wrote me off this round or was happy for me to be around since we also had a Warpish player, so anything to get ships out of the warp was welcome.

    So the first couple of turns I flew under the radar, making negotiations for foreign colonies without an issue. By my turn (I went second in the order) was over I already had 3 foreign colonies and was still not a target. I was chosen as defense on the third turn, but I was out of encounter cards, so I used my trump card: the Pentaform flare, which lets me draw two flare cards and change my alien race to one of them.

    I drew the Disease and the Miser, and chose Disease. As everybody became increasingly more alarmed (I had just negotiated a fourth foreign colony), the third player drew the first player as destiny, I immediately used my power to spread in his system, and won the game.

    We literally only had three turns before I won. The fourth player (Macron) didn’t even have a turn before it was all over.

    I don't quite understand this. If you are second, the maximum number of turns before yours would be two, if the first player won the first battle. So you should have a max of two colonies if you were invited to attack for each of those turns?
    How did you manage to get three?
    I've played Cosmic Encounter, but I'm not very familiar with all of the rules.

    Whoever gave you the fourth colony definitely shouldn't have, unless you won it through battle.

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    EpimerEpimer Registered User regular
    I've really gone off Terraforming Mars. Played it last night, was engaged for maybe that first fifteen minutes and then couldn't wait for it to be over.

    I think I'd almost always rather play Imperial Settlers or 51st State.

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I thought I remembered being told that the star wars destiny two player game was better if you bought two to make the decks more consistent? I don't remember if that's correct or not but they were $5 so I figured I'd give it a try

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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    My second game of Scythe tomorrow.

    Determined to do better than my atrociously unfocused bimbling in circles of last time, I've hit up the rule book today.

    Quelle horreur! I'm pretty sure we were playing the production rules significantly wrong last time, specifically mills.

    Never trust other people to teach the game. NEVER.

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    AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    My second game of Scythe tomorrow.

    Determined to do better than my atrociously unfocused bimbling in circles of last time, I've hit up the rule book today.

    Quelle horreur! I'm pretty sure we were playing the production rules significantly wrong last time, specifically mills.

    Never trust other people to teach the game. NEVER.

    I mean, sure, but at this point given the rate at which games come out I kind of expect to not get them fully-right until the second or third play however vigilant I or whoever else bought it decides to be in teaching it.

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    PowerpuppiesPowerpuppies drinking coffee in the mountain cabinRegistered User regular
    What ARE the right mill rules? I seem to remember a dispute and our eventual ruling being that if you have three workers on a food space, two workers on oil, and two workers and a mill on metal, and you produce on two squares, you get 3 food 2 oil 2 metal and 1 resource of your choice?

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    PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    edited August 2018


    Oh, I was wondering what Discover was going to be. Wasn’t expecting it to be another Unique game.

    PMAvers on
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    COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
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    Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    That's a neat idea. Who knows how much of a car crash it will be in reality

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
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    Mr. GMr. G Registered User regular
    Well, when they figure out a new printing technique, they put that shit to use

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    DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    Managed to restrain myself from backing Call to Adventure. As great as it looks I already have something like 4 or 5 kickstarted things I'm waiting for, and still have no one to play games with anyways.

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    Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    Mr. G wrote: »
    Well, when they figure out a new printing technique, they put that shit to use

    It's less figure out and more hear about :snap:

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
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    FryFry Registered User regular
    What ARE the right mill rules? I seem to remember a dispute and our eventual ruling being that if you have three workers on a food space, two workers on oil, and two workers and a mill on metal, and you produce on two squares, you get 3 food 2 oil 2 metal and 1 resource of your choice?

    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1624088/how-mill-building-works-definitive-guide

    I think in your example, you will get 3 food on the food space, 2 oil on the oil space, and 3 metal on the metal space.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    ArcSyn wrote: »
    Oh man. I just had an amazing game of Cosmic Encounter. I was playing as the Love, so even though I’ve won every single game we played this weekend everybody either wrote me off this round or was happy for me to be around since we also had a Warpish player, so anything to get ships out of the warp was welcome.

    So the first couple of turns I flew under the radar, making negotiations for foreign colonies without an issue. By my turn (I went second in the order) was over I already had 3 foreign colonies and was still not a target. I was chosen as defense on the third turn, but I was out of encounter cards, so I used my trump card: the Pentaform flare, which lets me draw two flare cards and change my alien race to one of them.

    I drew the Disease and the Miser, and chose Disease. As everybody became increasingly more alarmed (I had just negotiated a fourth foreign colony), the third player drew the first player as destiny, I immediately used my power to spread in his system, and won the game.

    We literally only had three turns before I won. The fourth player (Macron) didn’t even have a turn before it was all over.

    I don't quite understand this. If you are second, the maximum number of turns before yours would be two, if the first player won the first battle. So you should have a max of two colonies if you were invited to attack for each of those turns?
    How did you manage to get three?
    I've played Cosmic Encounter, but I'm not very familiar with all of the rules.

    Whoever gave you the fourth colony definitely shouldn't have, unless you won it through battle.

    First player drew me twice, I got two colonies.

    Second player was me, I won a colony in battle and stopped.

    Third player drew me, she negotiated for a colony with me (allegedly her only encounter card was a negotiate) and I told her I wouldn’t trade for anything less than a colony. She didn’t want to lose three ships right away (and reasoned that with such a big target on my back that I wouldn’t remain in first for long anyway).

    Used the Pentaform flare, changed to Disease.

    Fourth player drew the first player, game over.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Yeah it was a dumb move on player 3’s part but to be fair I don’t think anyone thought I would take it on the very next turn, which wasn’t even my own.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Time Stories is flawed but it can be an amazing gaming experience. There are so few cooperative games where you get to speculate on that kind of hidden information. Should we take this deal or that, this path or that? The secondary layer of, now that we know the possibility space, how do we effectively and efficiently party build and navigate the story, is also super fun. As a kind of elaborate CYOA machine it’s pretty unrivaled, I think.

    Also the price of the expansions are usually $20-30, which for a group of 2-4 is like catching a movie, and a module lasts like 4-6 hours generally. So that’s a decent value for your buck. And hey, the more you buy, the more you amortize your core set investment!

    I think my group has played all but 1 of the Time Stories boxes, and I give it a cautious recommendation. It's quite entertaining, but some of them have some poorly designed final encounters that leave a bad taste in the mouth near the very end. I like the game, but still view it as flawed. If you're the type of person who likes theme over everything else, you'll probably really enjoy it. One of my friends in the group, it's her favorite board game.

    My problem with Time Stories is that I would much rather play an RPG of it because the mechanics get in the way of the story. Spoiler for the zombie one:
    We got to da chopper but even though we had killed all the zombies on the roof and should have been able to just hang out there for hours no problem, the game insisted that we had to pick a girl at random and then have them check if it was the right one only after the helicopter fucked off. So we just wrote down the DNA code and then did the last run in like 10 minutes because we already knew the exact optimal sequence to collect all the girls.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    PMAvers wrote: »


    Oh, I was wondering what Discover was going to be. Wasn’t expecting it to be another Unique game.

    Sounds like 7th Continent-lite.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

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    LykouraghLykouragh Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

    I was thinking this same thing, and my best guess is that it makes it replayable if they managed to make a very fun short procedurally generated experience and you want to run through it multiple times?

    Still though that seems fundamentally dumb, I'd probably rather get your best handcrafted experience once since that will be much much better than your best procedurally generated experience, and I'm not really going to play your game through multiple times because we all have too many boardgames!

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

    This seems like a pretty shallow criticism. You can balance and play test games with random elements by controlling the range of variance and looking at the long term. Computer games have be doing this forever.

    This is basically like a roguelike... that is physical... and you play once...I'm not sure that's a good idea but it sounds interesting.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    I don’t want to be a cynic, but my gut reaction is it sounds like your standard variable set up game, but with only enough pieces in the box for one setup.

    Unless this has allowed them to have a stupidly large range of options then I’m not particularly impressed.

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    LykouraghLykouragh Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

    This seems like a pretty shallow criticism. You can balance and play test games with random elements by controlling the range of variance and looking at the long term. Computer games have be doing this forever.

    This is basically like a roguelike... that is physical... and you play once...I'm not sure that's a good idea but it sounds interesting.

    Of course it's possible, but what's the benefit of this in a boardgame? Why does it make my boardgame better if my copy is different than someone else's, that justifies the design effort going into making every single possible combination of setups/components/mechanics/characters/events fun?

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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Lykouragh wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

    This seems like a pretty shallow criticism. You can balance and play test games with random elements by controlling the range of variance and looking at the long term. Computer games have be doing this forever.

    This is basically like a roguelike... that is physical... and you play once...I'm not sure that's a good idea but it sounds interesting.

    Of course it's possible, but what's the benefit of this in a boardgame? Why does it make my boardgame better if my copy is different than someone else's, that justifies the design effort going into making every single possible combination of setups/components/mechanics/characters/events fun?

    I have no personal interest in playing this game but I feel like the answer to this is not that complicated. The goal of "every experience is unique" has been part of games since the very first nerd put cardboard and dice in a box. It's still a distant goal in video game design, and those are arguably far easier to make dynamic. People have been telling their Pandemic Legacy experiences in spoilers as recently as last week, and that game came out three years ago.

    Every box is a unique experience is going to sell hard to a lot of people.

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    AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Also they do say each one comes with multiple scenarios, so it’s not a one-time use game.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    What in the world do I want a boardgame where every copy is unique for?

    I know you didn't playtest and balance that game. You made it impossible.

    This seems like a pretty shallow criticism. You can balance and play test games with random elements by controlling the range of variance and looking at the long term. Computer games have be doing this forever.

    This is basically like a roguelike... that is physical... and you play once...I'm not sure that's a good idea but it sounds interesting.

    Roguelikes randomize on each play, you get a different seed each time. They do this because sometimes you get very hard or sometimes very easy seeds. The game averages out by throwing tons of seeds at you.

    Your copy of this game seeds once ever.

This discussion has been closed.