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[Board Games] aren't worth playing until you add at least five expansions

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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    edited August 2018
    I would say in order of importance its crew, engines, and shields. If you have not enough crew you are eliminated. If you have not enough engines you can't really do anything and then certain cards eliminate you. If you have not enough guns or shields or cargo then you can't do certain things or you lose parts of your ship, but as long as you have engines and crew you can still do things.

    This is only from one play though so I'm not sure how valid it is. In that play through I sat out for 99% of the game. The ship building 1% of the game is really fun though.

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    FryFry Registered User regular
    Galaxy Trucker is IMO the most fun when someone builds a slapdash ship very quickly and starts the timer on the slowpokes. If everyone is slow and methodical about building, the resolution is boooooooring.

    Also it's fun to build a not-Enterprise™ or what-have-you, the basic ship outline is boring.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Zee Garcia’s take on Galaxy Trucker is the most objectively incorrect opinion ever. He has it in his top 5 most hated games and calls the trucking part pointless. That’s like complaining that Oregon Trial isn’t just the shopping screen. The fun is setting up your wagon, then venturing forth and getting torn apart by the wilderness, laughing as your friends die of dysentery.

    Saying that dysentery deaths are pointless to Oregon Trail is objectively incorrect.

    MrBody on
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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Galaxy Trucker is IMO the most fun when someone builds a slapdash ship very quickly and starts the timer on the slowpokes. If everyone is slow and methodical about building, the resolution is boooooooring.

    Also it's fun to build a not-Enterprise™ or what-have-you, the basic ship outline is boring.

    Oh is that how it works? The person teaching the game didn't flip the timer until there was just one person left.

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    InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    I personally don’t like Galaxy Trucker much at all. A kind of stressful rush to build a ship followed by a resolution so random that the ship building didn’t actually matter at all.

    It’s me, the person who hates fun.

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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I personally don’t like Galaxy Trucker much at all. A kind of stressful rush to build a ship followed by a resolution so random that the ship building didn’t actually matter at all.

    It’s me, the person who hates fun.

    Honestly, Galaxy Trucker is the game that I would assume all board game thread-ers hate but they inexplicably like. Like a reverse Cosmic Encounter. I credit it to the genius of Vlaada.

    Personally, I like it because I can teach it to anybody, it plays quickly and is immune to analysis paralysis, and everyone has fun no matter how poorly they do. That said, if I had a group that was obsessed with it and I was playing it every month instead of a few times a year I think I would hate it.

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    LykouraghLykouragh Registered User regular
    The intended play experience of Galaxy trucker, I'm pretty sure, is everyone madly scrambling to build a ship as quickly as possible, building pretty terrible ships in funny ways, then getting their ships hilariously destroyed during the trucking phase. That's why most of the expansions tend to make the gamer harder.

    This is hard with a lot of groups because some board gamers have trouble enjoying a mad scramble to do a non-optimal thing, and not having their nice ship be perfect, and then watching their nice ship which they tried to make perfect despite that annoying rusher get destroyed by a random asteroid.

    (that said I am the annoying rusher and I love Galaxy trucker)

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Anything that causes maximum pain & annyance for AP people is a-okay in my book.

    (it annoyed the hell out of a guy who would regularly hold up every game, taking 5-10minute turns just staring at the board so he could win with 2.2 times more victory points than 2nd place instead of just 2.1. Screw that guy!)

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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Am I the only person who has trouble picturing Galaxy Trucker without the expansion? I feel like we only played the game twice without it, and I would never go back. Like, I just genuinely don't remember what it's like without aliens and rough roads and stuff. But all these things dive harder into the game's strengths of "WHERE IS THE COMPONENT I NEED!? WELL FUCK IT I'LL WEDGE THIS IN SOMEWHERE." and the game flipping your group the collective middle finger when stuff like "All big lasers are small lasers and vice versa." pops up on rough road cards.
    Side with admanb on the notion that it's fantastic to remember what it can be, but I would never want to play it too often. Like, I don't think it will be many groups' "Catan" or "Betrayal".

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    LykouraghLykouragh Registered User regular
    Oh man now I have to rage about Betrayal.

    Recently played that game for the first time and other people in my group liked it so much they went out and bought the D&D version.

    I don't think those fuckers playtested a single haunt in either game, ever. Every single haunt I've played has had a predetermined outcome the moment it was drawn. No decision I have made has either increased or decreased my odds of winning. Every outcome has been incredibly anticlimactic (we one shot the beholder which was supposed to be scary. We lasted exactly one round against the umber hulk and then it won in a way we had no control over). It's not even a fucking game, it's an RNG with flavor text associated and too many fiddly bits.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    It doesn’t help that the pre-haunt is also as deterministic as Candy Land.

    It’s one of the worst popular games, if not THE worst.

    It’s basically a drawn out version of Yipes! where someone screws up the rules and ruins the whole thing every other game.

    https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/19562/yipes

    MrBody on
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    DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    You guys are making Galaxy Trucker sound amazing. I did buy it at lunch and can't wait to play it.

    Is it still fun with 2 people?

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    FryFry Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Fry wrote: »
    Galaxy Trucker is IMO the most fun when someone builds a slapdash ship very quickly and starts the timer on the slowpokes. If everyone is slow and methodical about building, the resolution is boooooooring.

    Also it's fun to build a not-Enterprise™ or what-have-you, the basic ship outline is boring.

    Oh is that how it works? The person teaching the game didn't flip the timer until there was just one person left.

    You might be right, it's been years since I played. If the rule isn't the way I said, it might be more fun the way I said, so you could try it as a variant.

    Fry on
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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Fry wrote: »
    Galaxy Trucker is IMO the most fun when someone builds a slapdash ship very quickly and starts the timer on the slowpokes. If everyone is slow and methodical about building, the resolution is boooooooring.

    Also it's fun to build a not-Enterprise™ or what-have-you, the basic ship outline is boring.

    Oh is that how it works? The person teaching the game didn't flip the timer until there was just one person left.

    You might be right, it's been years since I played. If the rule isn't the way I said, it might be more fun the way I said, so you could try it as a variant.

    Your rule is correct: as soon as one player finishes they're allowed to flip the final timer.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    It's still fun, just not as much so.

    I also think only 2 players makes position rather pointless.

    MrBody on
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    AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Betrayal may not be a good game but unlike say Munchkin or Monopoly that doesn’t really stop it from being a fun game, IMO.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Betrayal may not be a good game but unlike say Munchkin or Monopoly that doesn’t really stop it from being a fun game, IMO.

    I'm intrigued by the idea of Betrayal Legacy partially because the base game itself can easily end up so unbalanced based on the scenario that materializes that I want to see how a continuing narrative is supposed to materialize that is also fun enough for a group to play.

    DarkPrimus on
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    ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    The only time I've felt let down by Betrayal - as indeed I'm willing to let the game be what it is and not what I can imagine it being - are when the rules are straight up nonsense.

    ...
    Now the unfortunate part of that is the last 4 games we've played of Betrayal, the rules have been total nonsense. It used to be my girlfriend's favourite game, and I'd still be happy to play it now and again, but the back-to-back-to-back bullshit we've encountered has soured her really hard on it because it's not even a fun story when people just aren't sure what is supposed to happen. :/

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    initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I played it once and our haunt was just literally clue but worse.

    It didn't really make me interested in playing it again

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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    I'm always baffled by the hatred for Betrayal here. I played the first edition a bunch and had a lot of fun. The pre-haunt stuff is boring because it's just a setup for the haunt. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes, it's quicker than setting up gloomhaven. It's kind of a crapshoot as to the balance of the haunts, but that's part of the charm. There's like 50 of them! It's supposed to be an oddball experience more than a balanced competition. It's like a party game for actual board gamers.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I can only speak for myself, but I have games I prefer to play over Betrayal if I want to play a game to have a good time and/or craft a narrative rather than trying to just win. Namely, Tales of Arabian Nights.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Betrayal is sooooo bad and was maybe the worst experience I've ever had board gaming. It's basically on par with Monopoly or Cards Against Humanity in terms of making me feel acute mental anguish and pain. I feel like you could have the same experience in a minute if you just picked a random haunt in the book to read out loud and then rolled a die to see who wins. I'm really not in the target audience though. I'm deep on team euro and Betrayal is so ameritrash it's like a parody game.

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    Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Proud Father House GardenerRegistered User regular
    Betrayal can be amazing or suck horribly depending on the scenario, I've found.

    One game we got an expansion scenario and it would never end. It basically turned the game into a free for all, with the traitor slightly powered up.

    I was knocked out in my attempt to encourage people to get things over with,
    but the scenario encouraged people to essentially play keep away for 4 hours.

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    FryFry Registered User regular
    Betrayal is less awful than Munchkin, at least.

    It does occasionally generate entertaining stories, but oftentimes it's just a confusing, unbalanced mess.

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    ChaosHatChaosHat Hop, hop, hop, HA! Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Betrayal can be amazing or suck horribly depending on the scenario, I've found.

    One game we got an expansion scenario and it would never end. It basically turned the game into a free for all, with the traitor slightly powered up.

    I was knocked out in my attempt to encourage people to get things over with,
    but the scenario encouraged people to essentially play keep away for 4 hours.

    If the floor on a game is "suck horribly" then it's not really worth my time or money given how little gaming time I have. The floor should be "fun."

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    CaptainPeacockCaptainPeacock Board Game Hoarder Top o' the LakeRegistered User regular
    Just had a great night being the storyteller for my Dad in Tales of the Arabian Nights. His first time playing and he loved it. He was so into it. What a great night!

    Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom, etc.
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    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Betrayal can be amazing or suck horribly depending on the scenario, I've found.

    One game we got an expansion scenario and it would never end. It basically turned the game into a free for all, with the traitor slightly powered up.

    I was knocked out in my attempt to encourage people to get things over with,
    but the scenario encouraged people to essentially play keep away for 4 hours.

    If the floor on a game is "suck horribly" then it's not really worth my time or money given how little gaming time I have. The floor should be "fun."

    While I agree, fun is subjective. Clearly some people find wasting 3 hours yelling and screaming at each other while mindlessly rolling dice. It’s why Monopoly is still around.

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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Had an utterly ridiculous epic fight vs. OblivAeon tonight.

    We started with Redeemer Fanatic, Omnitron-X, and Haka vs. Progeny. Three and a half hours later, through four incapacitated heroes (including two versions of Fanatic), seven defeated Scions (including and especially #10), every possible Aeon Man (the deck was reshuffled twice, although the second time was due to defeating Aeon Master), one destroyed environment (Pike Industries will [not] be missed), and seventeen completed missions, we emerged victorious. Along the way we generated quite a few questions that means we probably misplayed a few things — Haka's Ground Pound in particular has some peculiar interactions when OblivAeon hits everything in the game — but on the whole a saga that will be long remembered.

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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    The thing about Betrayal is that it tries to toe the line between a purely 'narrative generator' experience game where there is no real competition or skill, versus an actual competitive game where skill and planning matter. If you are firmly in one camp or the other, you are not going to see the appeal of the crossover. But for people who like to dabble in both, it's an incomparable experience, there is nothing else quite like it in board gaming in terms of the variety, the challenge, and the theming.

    And I want to emphasize again - there are about 50 different haunts, and this was a game that came out 20 years ago. Back before there were things like legacy games, the biggest thrill you could get in board gaming was opening up a new haunt you had never tried before, it really expanded what board games could be. I really think people should try it out again, but take it for what it is, instead of what you want it to be. Besides, it takes less than an hour to play, you can get in a couple haunts in an evening.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Betrayal can be amazing or suck horribly depending on the scenario, I've found.

    One game we got an expansion scenario and it would never end. It basically turned the game into a free for all, with the traitor slightly powered up.

    I was knocked out in my attempt to encourage people to get things over with,
    but the scenario encouraged people to essentially play keep away for 4 hours.

    If the floor on a game is "suck horribly" then it's not really worth my time or money given how little gaming time I have. The floor should be "fun."

    While I agree, fun is subjective. Clearly some people find wasting 3 hours yelling and screaming at each other while mindlessly rolling dice. It’s why Monopoly is still around.

    You spelled "Catan" wrong.

    You can easily file Monopoly under "people just don't know there's better stuff out there". People still playing Catan, Pandemic, Cosmic Encounter, or any other old gateway game though, I just don't get. They've already dived into the rabbit hole.

    MrBody on
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    ArcSynArcSyn Registered User regular
    I think it's a matter of different positions on the timeline.
    For me, I have all of those games, and while they don't see regular play, I'll still play them because it's a sunk cost. Getting rid of them, for any sort of reimbursement, is nearly impossible because of how ubiquitous they are. So instead you keep them and play them. And if they get played once or twice a year, it takes a long time to discover the broken or solvable parts and realize what you don't like or what you do want in a game.

    Also, because they've been around for so long, they're names that are recognized and purchased as part of the starting collection after Monopoly.

    Then you have the people who grew up with the games, so they keep playing because it's nostalgic and what they know.

    What would you even replace them with? It's probably highly subjective. I would guess maybe Forbidden Desert instead of Pandemic, Inis for Catan, and maybe Kemet for Cosmic Encounter? I haven't played two of those games so I'm taking a blind shot here.

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    RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    So tonight I totally failed as gaming host.

    Sit down to play our first game of pandemic legacy. First real game with legacy rules. We even ripped a card up! And we won! But I missed one little thing.

    I opened the legacy cards, and read them until I got to the stop card.

    I didn't read the text below stop. Turns out it completely changes what's going on. I didn't realize it until we were writing down our victory.

    Luckily no stickers hit the board. We'really going to use a civilian card for the card we ripped. Yes we'll know it's coming but what else can we do?

    Was a lot of fun, and everyone loved playING legacy. But that defiantly put a damper on things. Might try it again tomorrow night.

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    RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    @jonbob I feel like in your op under cooperative game's you should include forbidden desert. I've had a blast with it, and it's what has gotten my core group of gf, and dad playing. We've even gotten my mom to play a few times and she seemed to enjoy it.

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    discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Betrayal can be amazing or suck horribly depending on the scenario, I've found.

    One game we got an expansion scenario and it would never end. It basically turned the game into a free for all, with the traitor slightly powered up.

    I was knocked out in my attempt to encourage people to get things over with,
    but the scenario encouraged people to essentially play keep away for 4 hours.

    If the floor on a game is "suck horribly" then it's not really worth my time or money given how little gaming time I have. The floor should be "fun."

    While I agree, fun is subjective. Clearly some people find wasting 3 hours yelling and screaming at each other while mindlessly rolling dice. It’s why Monopoly is still around.

    You spelled "Catan" wrong.

    You can easily file Monopoly under "people just don't know there's better stuff out there". People still playing Catan, Pandemic, Cosmic Encounter, or any other old gateway game though, I just don't get. They've already dived into the rabbit hole.

    ???
    I'm not sure what there is to not get; you play a game until it makes you angry cause you know it back to front, and then you move to a different game.

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    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    Is it possible to make a better Betrayal? Someone should probably get to work on that.

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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    Is it the game or certain scenarios that is the problem?

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    FremFrem Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Is it the game or certain scenarios that is the problem?

    They’re both kinda iffy. On the one hand there’s a lot of chance with the dice. On the other hand, the climax of the game is puzzling over rules for five minutes; longer if the traitor has never played before.

    I don’t know how to fix it. It’s screaming for a short rules video for each haunt, though.

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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited August 2018
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Is it the game or certain scenarios that is the problem?

    The game. It's just an awful design. The 2 pros I keep hearing are:

    1. It's a narrative game over mechanics
    2. There's a large variety of haunts

    I think both are a failure. Right off the bat, you're stuck with a half hour setup, which is all the pre-haunt is. Zero gameplay decisions. Zero narrative. Your move decisions are arbitrary. You're just picking cards until the haunt goes off. There is no narrative to the buildup. It is a 95% narrative game with 0% narrative in the first 50% of each game. And like the other guy said, what gameplay rules that are there exist mostly to muck the game up. It baffles me how anyone can defend a game where one-third to one-half of all (one hour) plays are ruined because someone messed up the fiddly rules that by design limit how much your group can figure out. Nothing is worse than a PnP role playing game where the GM is an unprepared screwup, and Betrayal forces someone to be GM on the spot with new, unfamiliar rules

    The large variety of haunts claim reminds me of those procedural generated video games that advertise endless possibilities but it usually ends up just being a bunch of crappy levels constructed by duct taping a bunch of pre-fab box rooms together, making you long for a game with limited, but well thought out pre-made levels. For co-op exploration games that are mostly atmosphere and story with some lite gameplay tacked on, Mansions of Madness and TIME Stories are soooo much better alternatives (there's also Arabian Nights which I have not played). The only thing Betrayal can claim over them is more scenarios, but when so many of your scenarios are crap or prone to rules misinterpretations, that one and only advantage disappears.

    That comparison to Cards Against Humanity is apt. Betrayal is up there with CAH and Exploding Kittens that are experiences in (not the good kind of) mental anguish that always make me walk away feeling worse for having sat through the experience.
    HOW much do I hate CAH and Exploding Kittens? One meetup group night, a very cute girl I had briefly met the previous week spots me out of the crowd, runs up to me, remembers my name, and grabs my hand to walk me over to a table. "We're about to start a game! Come join us! You can sit next to me!"

    My mouth is in the middle of saying, "Sure!" when I spot the game: Cards Against Humanity. My feet and mouth stop in mid-motion. I have to shift to, "Sssssssuuuuu-mmmaybe another game? Come grab me when you're done!" *gently fold her hand away and disengage*

    Cold? Probably. But her seeing my mood when forced to play CAH would have been worse.
    Got her and her friends to play Dark Moon after. I'm slowly converting people away from Secret Hitler to that.

    MrBody on
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    MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Anyone tried the Adventure Escape mobile games? They're kind of like those "Hidden Object" games minus most of the hidden object parts.

    + They're all free!
    + Half of the puzzles are decent escape room style ones
    - Half of the puzzles are tedious "arrange pieces" puzzles where you'll eventually reach a solution but they're just a headache to sort through (which is why I don't get Sudoku but if you like that you might like these?)

    So they're totally free, and you just have to sit through an ad at the end of every chapter. There's a weir monetization thing where you buy "stars" then use them to buy hints...that you could just get by looking at a walkthrough so I dunno? Buy some just to throw them some cash as a donation?

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    AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Is it the game or certain scenarios that is the problem?

    The game. It's just an awful design. The 2 pros I keep hearing are:

    1. It's a narrative game over mechanics
    2. There's a large variety of haunts

    I think both are a failure. Right off the bat, you're stuck with a half hour setup, which is all the pre-haunt is. Zero gameplay decisions. Zero narrative. Your move decisions are arbitrary. You're just picking cards until the haunt goes off. There is no narrative to the buildup. It is a 95% narrative game with 0% narrative in the first 50% of each game. And like the other guy said, what gameplay rules that are there exist mostly to muck the game up. It baffles me how anyone can defend a game where one-third to one-half of all (one hour) plays are ruined because someone messed up the fiddly rules that by design limit how much your group can figure out. Nothing is worse than a PnP role playing game where the GM is an unprepared screwup, and Betrayal forces someone to be GM on the spot with new, unfamiliar rules

    The large variety of haunts claim reminds me of those procedural generated video games that advertise endless possibilities but it usually ends up just being a bunch of crappy levels constructed by duct taping a bunch of pre-fab box rooms together, making you long for a game with limited, but well thought out pre-made levels. For co-op exploration games that are mostly atmosphere and story with some lite gameplay tacked on, Mansions of Madness and TIME Stories are soooo much better alternatives (there's also Arabian Nights which I have not played). The only thing Betrayal can claim over them is more scenarios, but when so many of your scenarios are crap or prone to rules misinterpretations, that one and only advantage disappears.

    That comparison to Cards Against Humanity is apt. Betrayal is up there with CAH and Exploding Kittens that are experiences in (not the good kind of) mental anguish that always make me walk away feeling worse for having sat through the experience.
    HOW much do I hate CAH and Exploding Kittens? One meetup group night, a very cute girl I had briefly met the previous week spots me out of the crowd, runs up to me, remembers my name, and grabs my hand to walk me over to a table. "We're about to start a game! Come join us! You can sit next to me!"

    My mouth is in the middle of saying, "Sure!" when I spot the game: Cards Against Humanity. My feet and mouth stop in mid-motion. I have to shift to, "Sssssssuuuuu-mmmaybe another game? Come grab me when you're done!" *gently fold her hand away and disengage*

    Cold? Probably. But her seeing my mood when forced to play CAH would have been worse.
    Got her and her friends to play Dark Moon after. I'm slowly converting people away from Secret Hitler to that.

    Mansions is long and very complicated and requires a GM (and is often not fun at all for the GM) and even if the GM knows their shit they still have to really balance how hard they play against the players—often scenarios there can mean smart GM players can prevent the others from literally doing anything. Also there are lots of Mansions scenarios with their own unique rulesets you can fuck up.

    Time Stories is a big time commitment and you can only play a scenario once.

    Arabian Nights is also a pretty long game and not everybody wants to read for fun. (Plus it’s easy to argue that all of your decisions in that game are totally arbitrary.)

    Betrayal isn’t perfect but it’s short, accessible, and undemanding. I’m not sure there’s a better game in that exact space, whatever its flaws.

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